Discussion:
Extending Ethernet through wall without too many boxes - Xpost
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David
2024-05-13 11:04:46 UTC
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I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.

Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due to
difficult access between the floors around the stairs.

One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.

I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.

I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work surface
or adjoining wall.

Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?

A very small router and power supply seems far too big.

I could fit an extender (socket type) to the cable but I'm not really keen
on this. Is there a connector with punch down connectors on both sides to
extend a run of Ethernet?

As usual, once I start typing out the details I think of more options.

Cheers


Dave R
--
W11 Home on Dell XPS 13 i7
Theo
2024-05-13 11:40:45 UTC
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Permalink
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due to
difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work surface
or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
If you don't mind 100Mbit, you could split the cat5e into two groups of two
pairs. 100M will work over two pairs while gigabit needs four.
Post by David
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
There are 'in wall APs' which also have a switch:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003134217005.html

Powered by PoE so you can feed that in from the other end of the ethernet.

TP-Link has the EAPxxx-Wall series which are larger than a single socket box:
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/business-networking/omada-eap/#wall-plate-ap

(either in a double box horizontally, or vertically via a double-to-single
plate - need to check mounting holes)

Maybe one of these would also work as your external AP, ie no need for the
extra ethernet? You could use a double cable run outside, eg take one cable
from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it outside, plug into the AP,
take second cable and run it back from the outdoor AP to connect to the
faceplate of the internal socket. The AP is outside (needs to be protected
from the rain as it's not exterior grade) and the internal socket is now
downstream of it.

Also, some outdoor APs may have a second ethernet port. You can do the same
idea with one of those, looping back the second ethernet port to provide a
port on your socket.

Theo
David
2024-05-13 11:59:55 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due
to difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work
surface or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
If you don't mind 100Mbit, you could split the cat5e into two groups of
two pairs. 100M will work over two pairs while gigabit needs four.
Post by David
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003134217005.html
Powered by PoE so you can feed that in from the other end of the ethernet.
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/business-networking/omada-eap/#wall-plate-ap
(either in a double box horizontally, or vertically via a
double-to-single plate - need to check mounting holes)
Maybe one of these would also work as your external AP, ie no need for
the extra ethernet? You could use a double cable run outside, eg take
one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it outside,
plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the outdoor AP
to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket. The AP is outside
(needs to be protected from the rain as it's not exterior grade) and the
internal socket is now downstream of it.
Also, some outdoor APs may have a second ethernet port. You can do the
same idea with one of those, looping back the second ethernet port to
provide a port on your socket.
Theo
Thanks.
Interesting stuff.
However my current wall socket is a double box with a modular face plate.

There are three connections:

Ethernet RJ45

Satellite F-plug (not currently connected

TV F-plug connected

So there is little scope for replacing the current faceplate.

The outside area is under a wrap around car port so is protected from any
direct rain

You said:
"eg take one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it
outside, plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the
outdoor AP to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket."

This is my immediate issue - to get enough cable length to take the lead
outside.
After that, running a cable back to the original socket on the internal
box is relatively trivial.

The location would not be good for an AP as I want it around the back of
the house up high under the plastic roof to give the best signal path down
the garden, and good signal to people sitting out on the deck.

Some very useful links there, though.

Cheers



Dave R
--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64
Theo
2024-05-13 12:09:52 UTC
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Post by David
"eg take one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it
outside, plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the
outdoor AP to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket."
This is my immediate issue - to get enough cable length to take the lead
outside.
After that, running a cable back to the original socket on the internal
box is relatively trivial.
In which case use a punchdown coupler as suggested. Here's one with a better
pic of the innards:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162924849929

Would that fit in the back of your socket box? Then run two cables from the
back of the box to your AP location, one into the coupler and one into the
faceplate. Then have a dual-port AP outside.

Theo
Tricky Dicky
2024-05-13 12:52:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by David
Post by Theo
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due
to difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work
surface or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
If you don't mind 100Mbit, you could split the cat5e into two groups of
two pairs. 100M will work over two pairs while gigabit needs four.
Post by David
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003134217005.html
Powered by PoE so you can feed that in from the other end of the ethernet.
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/business-networking/omada-eap/#wall-plate-ap
(either in a double box horizontally, or vertically via a
double-to-single plate - need to check mounting holes)
Maybe one of these would also work as your external AP, ie no need for
the extra ethernet? You could use a double cable run outside, eg take
one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it outside,
plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the outdoor AP
to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket. The AP is outside
(needs to be protected from the rain as it's not exterior grade) and the
internal socket is now downstream of it.
Also, some outdoor APs may have a second ethernet port. You can do the
same idea with one of those, looping back the second ethernet port to
provide a port on your socket.
Theo
Thanks.
Interesting stuff.
However my current wall socket is a double box with a modular face plate.
Ethernet RJ45
Satellite F-plug (not currently connected
TV F-plug connected
So there is little scope for replacing the current faceplate.
The outside area is under a wrap around car port so is protected from any
direct rain
"eg take one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it
outside, plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the
outdoor AP to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket."
This is my immediate issue - to get enough cable length to take the lead
outside.
After that, running a cable back to the original socket on the internal
box is relatively trivial.
The location would not be good for an AP as I want it around the back of
the house up high under the plastic roof to give the best signal path down
the garden, and good signal to people sitting out on the deck.
Some very useful links there, though.
Cheers
Dave R
If you can do without the internal RJ45 I would replace any network switch
with a POE enabled one then all you need to do is run Ethernet to a POE
enabled AP which could be done by splicing the wires in your existing box.
Alternatively get a POE injector plug it into the network socket run your
cable from outside and plug it into the injector and plug the injector into
any convenient 13A socket.
David
2024-05-13 13:06:04 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by David
Post by Theo
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain
due to difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run
it through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router
out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work
surface or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a
double back box?
If you don't mind 100Mbit, you could split the cat5e into two groups
of two pairs. 100M will work over two pairs while gigabit needs four.
Post by David
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003134217005.html
Powered by PoE so you can feed that in from the other end of the ethernet.
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/business-networking/omada-eap/#wall-plate-ap
(either in a double box horizontally, or vertically via a
double-to-single plate - need to check mounting holes)
Maybe one of these would also work as your external AP, ie no need for
the extra ethernet? You could use a double cable run outside, eg take
one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it outside,
plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the outdoor
AP to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket. The AP is
outside (needs to be protected from the rain as it's not exterior
grade) and the internal socket is now downstream of it.
Also, some outdoor APs may have a second ethernet port. You can do
the same idea with one of those, looping back the second ethernet port
to provide a port on your socket.
Theo
Thanks.
Interesting stuff.
However my current wall socket is a double box with a modular face plate.
Ethernet RJ45
Satellite F-plug (not currently connected
TV F-plug connected
So there is little scope for replacing the current faceplate.
The outside area is under a wrap around car port so is protected from
any direct rain
"eg take one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it
outside, plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the
outdoor AP to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket."
This is my immediate issue - to get enough cable length to take the
lead outside.
After that, running a cable back to the original socket on the internal
box is relatively trivial.
The location would not be good for an AP as I want it around the back
of the house up high under the plastic roof to give the best signal
path down the garden, and good signal to people sitting out on the
deck.
Some very useful links there, though.
Cheers
Dave R
If you can do without the internal RJ45 I would replace any network
switch with a POE enabled one then all you need to do is run Ethernet to
a POE enabled AP which could be done by splicing the wires in your
existing box. Alternatively get a POE injector plug it into the network
socket run your cable from outside and plug it into the injector and
plug the injector into any convenient 13A socket.
Thanks.
I want to retain the internal RJ45 connector as it is part of the sat/TV/
Ethernet point where (should we no longer be able to use upstairs) we can
install a big TV in our new living area.

Cheers



Dave R
--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64
Tricky Dicky
2024-05-13 14:06:35 UTC
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Permalink
Post by David
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by David
Post by Theo
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain
due to difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run
it through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router
out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work
surface or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a
double back box?
If you don't mind 100Mbit, you could split the cat5e into two groups
of two pairs. 100M will work over two pairs while gigabit needs four.
Post by David
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003134217005.html
Powered by PoE so you can feed that in from the other end of the ethernet.
https://www.tp-link.com/uk/business-networking/omada-eap/#wall-plate-ap
(either in a double box horizontally, or vertically via a
double-to-single plate - need to check mounting holes)
Maybe one of these would also work as your external AP, ie no need for
the extra ethernet? You could use a double cable run outside, eg take
one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it outside,
plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the outdoor
AP to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket. The AP is
outside (needs to be protected from the rain as it's not exterior
grade) and the internal socket is now downstream of it.
Also, some outdoor APs may have a second ethernet port. You can do
the same idea with one of those, looping back the second ethernet port
to provide a port on your socket.
Theo
Thanks.
Interesting stuff.
However my current wall socket is a double box with a modular face plate.
Ethernet RJ45
Satellite F-plug (not currently connected
TV F-plug connected
So there is little scope for replacing the current faceplate.
The outside area is under a wrap around car port so is protected from
any direct rain
"eg take one cable from behind your internal ethernet socket, run it
outside, plug into the AP, take second cable and run it back from the
outdoor AP to connect to the faceplate of the internal socket."
This is my immediate issue - to get enough cable length to take the
lead outside.
After that, running a cable back to the original socket on the internal
box is relatively trivial.
The location would not be good for an AP as I want it around the back
of the house up high under the plastic roof to give the best signal
path down the garden, and good signal to people sitting out on the
deck.
Some very useful links there, though.
Cheers
Dave R
If you can do without the internal RJ45 I would replace any network
switch with a POE enabled one then all you need to do is run Ethernet to
a POE enabled AP which could be done by splicing the wires in your
existing box. Alternatively get a POE injector plug it into the network
socket run your cable from outside and plug it into the injector and
plug the injector into any convenient 13A socket.
Thanks.
I want to retain the internal RJ45 connector as it is part of the sat/TV/
Ethernet point where (should we no longer be able to use upstairs) we can
install a big TV in our new living area.
Cheers
Dave R
As TNP has already said network switches can be daisy chained as long as
you do not go overboard. As your existing socket is mounted on a
plasterboard back box I presume it is either a stud wall or dot and dab.
Temporarily removing the box may in a stud wall enable you to put a small
two port network switch enabled for POE in the cavity and wire in your
existing Ethernet to it and then back to the existing network point and the
exterior AP. At some point further back on the existing Cat5e use a POE
injector or replace your network switch with a POE type. For dot & dab you
may have to do a bit of chiselling out to make more room which might be
easier if you are prepared to take out and afterwards replace and fill a
section of PB.
The Natural Philosopher
2024-05-13 14:23:05 UTC
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Post by David
I want to retain the internal RJ45 connector as it is part of the sat/TV/
Ethernet point where (should we no longer be able to use upstairs) we can
install a big TV in our new living area.
Then you will need a powered switch *of some sort*

Depending on your exact layout, the simplest thing might be to go from
the existing Ethernet to a powered switch and then take a lead from
that outside to a socket or wireless AP.

Any TVS that would have used tie existing port can hook up to the switch
instead

Wall mounting seems best. If you want to also create a wifi AP, ther are
a few units that also do that.

https://www.voipon.co.uk/grandstream-gwn7602-wifi-access-point-with-integrated-ethernet-switch-p-8820.html

looks perfect for the job. Original Ethernet in one port, and three more
ethernet ports plus wifi.
--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe
Vir Campestris
2024-05-20 20:30:21 UTC
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Permalink
Post by David
The location would not be good for an AP as I want it around the back of
the house up high under the plastic roof to give the best signal path down
the garden, and good signal to people sitting out on the deck.
How far is your deck?

I get good coverage all over the garden from the router _inside_ my home
office - a timber framed, plasterboard lined room. Out to at least 30m.

OTOH we don't have many neighbours to interfere with the signal.

Andy
David
2024-05-22 18:15:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by David
The location would not be good for an AP as I want it around the back
of the house up high under the plastic roof to give the best signal
path down the garden, and good signal to people sitting out on the
deck.
How far is your deck?
I get good coverage all over the garden from the router _inside_ my home
office - a timber framed, plasterboard lined room. Out to at least 30m.
OTOH we don't have many neighbours to interfere with the signal.
Andy
Deck is directly outside the bifold doors of the rear living/dining/
cooking area.

The problem seems to be the bifold doors blocking the WIFi signal.

However have just installed a new WiFi6 WAP w2here the old WAP was, and
the signal is much stronger.

So I may not need the wiring after all.

Cheers



Dave R
--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64
Sam Plusnet
2024-05-14 00:02:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due to
difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work surface
or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
If you don't mind 100Mbit, you could split the cat5e into two groups of two
pairs. 100M will work over two pairs while gigabit needs four.
Post by David
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003134217005.html
There's a weird picture on that webpage (5th from the left) which has a
hand pointing at the Ethernet ports.
Either they employed a Lilliputian, or that Access Port is massive.
--
Sam Plusnet
The Natural Philosopher
2024-05-13 11:44:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due to
difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
Ok.... so lets here more about that...
Post by David
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I am perplexed. Is this a socket inside an outside wall or outside an
outside wall?
Post by David
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work surface
or adjoining wall.
What work surface?
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
Sure. solder a new cable onto the old, replace the double socket with a
single, and Robert is a relative
Post by David
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
I could fit an extender (socket type) to the cable but I'm not really keen
on this. Is there a connector with punch down connectors on both sides to
extend a run of Ethernet?
I think you are overthinking this

Cat 5e is simply an array of low grade twisted pairs. It isn't massively
fussy about being extended with chocolate blocks and solder/heat shrink
is way better.
That's how I extended mine to get a socket in the kitchen.

What you can't do is multiply the *number* of sockets without a *switch*.
But switches are very cheap
If you have or can cobble up power over Ethernet a one to two port
switch is peanuts and could be buried in the wall...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shanrya-Gigabit-Network-Splitter-Adapter/dp/B0BSDNDFQ3

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ethernet-Portable-Network-Console-BROLEOh5m2veu0w8-12/dp/B0CVG1LC5Y/
is the cheapest one that doesn't need POE but takes an external power brick
--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx
John Rumm
2024-05-13 11:49:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due to
difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work surface
or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
A standard punch down CAT5 junction box should do the trick, like:

https://www.comms-express.com/products/cat5e-utp-junction-box/

Note however that you would lose access to the internal socket, since
you can't just daisy chain network sockets.

(If you need the internal socket, then select an AP with more than one
ethernet port on it, and bring a second CAT5 back from the AP, to
terminate on the socket)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Pancho
2024-05-13 11:58:25 UTC
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Permalink
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
Presuming that works, why not just twist the cables together, strand by
strand, with a shrink tube around each strand.
Theo
2024-05-13 12:17:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
Presuming that works, why not just twist the cables together, strand by
strand, with a shrink tube around each strand.
Use the proper box for the sake of a couple of quid? Ethernet is high speed
signalling, so the signal integrity does matter. Gigabit isn't as fussy as
other high speed protocols, and you probably aren't pushing the length
limits, but even so it's better to use fittings designed for the job, not
bodging it. If you bodged it and it's marginal it may *work* but see lots
of packet errors which reduce your speed - like being on dodgy wifi.

If you're so space constrained that the proper fittings won't fit, then
there are ways to do it while preserving the best signal integrity you can
(keep pairs together, minimise intra-pair gaps). But much better not to
have to do that, and the boxes reduce the variability.

Theo
Pancho
2024-05-13 14:11:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Pancho
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
Presuming that works, why not just twist the cables together, strand by
strand, with a shrink tube around each strand.
Use the proper box for the sake of a couple of quid?
Me???? Do a proper job :-).

But thinking about it, you are right, the cables need to be twisted
pair. An untwisted stretch > 2cm could be problematic.
The Natural Philosopher
2024-05-13 14:38:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Post by Theo
Post by Pancho
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
Presuming that works, why not just twist the cables together, strand by
strand, with a shrink tube around each strand.
Use the proper box for the sake of a couple of quid?
Me???? Do a proper job :-).
But thinking about it, you are right, the cables need to be twisted
pair. An untwisted stretch > 2cm could be problematic.
It most certainly isn't at 100Mbps.

And I warrant at Gbps too. The power levels used in Ethernet are
*massive* compared with what is typical at RF. .

The twisted pair part of Ethernet is as much stopping it radiating
interference as it is rejecting outside interference, and the
termination impedance at both ends is enough to swamp reflections from
'bad' connections'

When you think about it, a soldered or twisted together line is a lot
less shitty than a punch down pair of forks...in a rack...

Ethernet is designed to be installed by 'unskilled' personnel
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
Paul
2024-05-14 10:24:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Pancho
Post by Theo
Post by Pancho
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
Presuming that works, why not just twist the cables together, strand by
strand, with a shrink tube around each strand.
Use the proper box for the sake of a couple of quid?
Me???? Do a proper job :-).
But thinking about it, you are right, the cables need to be twisted pair. An untwisted stretch > 2cm could be problematic.
It most certainly isn't at 100Mbps.
And I warrant at Gbps too. The power levels used in Ethernet are *massive* compared with what is typical at RF. .
The twisted pair part of Ethernet is as much stopping it radiating interference as it is rejecting outside interference, and the termination impedance at both ends is enough to swamp reflections from 'bad' connections'
When you think about it, a soldered or twisted together  line is a lot less shitty than a punch down pair of forks...in a rack...
Ethernet is designed to be installed by 'unskilled' personnel
You can test this.

One of the Marvell NIC chips, has an impedance tester (page 13):

http://web.archive.org/web/20051101231749/http://marvell.com/products/transceivers/singleport/VCT_White_Paper.pdf

(their own flavour of TDR). And it can tell you "shorted", "open",
or "characteristic impedance". Since there are four pairs
and the Marvell is GbE, there are four words on the screen,
one word for each pair. When I first got the P5E Deluxe, the RJ45
was dirty, and had one open contact, so I got to use the VCT test
right away. And one of the pairs was rated "Open". Re-inserting
the RJ45, five times, was sufficient to clean the contact.

Eth.Cable
P5E Deluxe -------------------- Router with power off ("no heartbeat")
booted and running Now, you are testing cable, and router RJ45 contacts.
onboard Marvell chip.

Marvell still lists some parts that have VCT capability, but
I don't know how easy it is to find a working specimen at retail.

https://www.marvell.com/products/ethernet-phys.html

The error rate on Ethernet, is finite. It's not zero.
And our objective as hobbyists, is to not make it worse :-)
I occasionally run SHA hashes on network transferred files,
to keep an eye on the enhanced error rate. I've never
seen a bit flipped in a transferred file... yet. But the
opportunity for that, does exist.

Paul
Theo
2024-05-14 11:30:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
http://web.archive.org/web/20051101231749/http://marvell.com/products/transceivers/singleport/VCT_White_Paper.pdf
(their own flavour of TDR). And it can tell you "shorted", "open",
or "characteristic impedance". Since there are four pairs
and the Marvell is GbE, there are four words on the screen,
one word for each pair. When I first got the P5E Deluxe, the RJ45
was dirty, and had one open contact, so I got to use the VCT test
right away. And one of the pairs was rated "Open". Re-inserting
the RJ45, five times, was sufficient to clean the contact.
That's interesting, I hadn't come across those. They look quite handy.
Post by Paul
Marvell still lists some parts that have VCT capability, but
I don't know how easy it is to find a working specimen at retail.
https://www.marvell.com/products/ethernet-phys.html
For the record those are PHYs - they go after the MAC chip which is the one
that talks USB/PCI/PCIe/... There might be a USB ethernet adapter which has
such a Marvell PHY after its MAC, but it's a job to find one unless you look
at teardown photos. Many cheaper devices have combined MAC and PHY in the
same silicon so that makes them less likely. You could hunt around for
PCI(e) cards with Marvell PHY chips on them I suppose.

But it might be easier just to buy a proper TDR, ~$80:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004008485938.html
Post by Paul
The error rate on Ethernet, is finite. It's not zero.
And our objective as hobbyists, is to not make it worse :-)
I occasionally run SHA hashes on network transferred files,
to keep an eye on the enhanced error rate. I've never
seen a bit flipped in a transferred file... yet. But the
opportunity for that, does exist.
You're several levels of checksumming at that point, which covers a
multitude of sins. But bodging it now stores up problems for the future -
our entire office building had to be rewired because the contractors who
installed cat5 when it was built only wired 2 pairs, which was all that was
needed for 'super fast' 100Mbit at the time (the cable was fine, but all the
terminations had to be redone).

2.5/5/10G copper is becoming more common and better to do it right than do
it twice.

Theo
The Natural Philosopher
2024-05-14 12:38:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Paul
http://web.archive.org/web/20051101231749/http://marvell.com/products/transceivers/singleport/VCT_White_Paper.pdf
(their own flavour of TDR). And it can tell you "shorted", "open",
or "characteristic impedance". Since there are four pairs
and the Marvell is GbE, there are four words on the screen,
one word for each pair. When I first got the P5E Deluxe, the RJ45
was dirty, and had one open contact, so I got to use the VCT test
right away. And one of the pairs was rated "Open". Re-inserting
the RJ45, five times, was sufficient to clean the contact.
That's interesting, I hadn't come across those. They look quite handy.
Post by Paul
Marvell still lists some parts that have VCT capability, but
I don't know how easy it is to find a working specimen at retail.
https://www.marvell.com/products/ethernet-phys.html
For the record those are PHYs - they go after the MAC chip which is the one
that talks USB/PCI/PCIe/... There might be a USB ethernet adapter which has
such a Marvell PHY after its MAC, but it's a job to find one unless you look
at teardown photos. Many cheaper devices have combined MAC and PHY in the
same silicon so that makes them less likely. You could hunt around for
PCI(e) cards with Marvell PHY chips on them I suppose.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004008485938.html
Post by Paul
The error rate on Ethernet, is finite. It's not zero.
And our objective as hobbyists, is to not make it worse :-)
I occasionally run SHA hashes on network transferred files,
to keep an eye on the enhanced error rate. I've never
seen a bit flipped in a transferred file... yet. But the
opportunity for that, does exist.
You're several levels of checksumming at that point, which covers a
multitude of sins. But bodging it now stores up problems for the future -
our entire office building had to be rewired because the contractors who
installed cat5 when it was built only wired 2 pairs, which was all that was
needed for 'super fast' 100Mbit at the time (the cable was fine, but all the
terminations had to be redone).
2.5/5/10G copper is becoming more common and better to do it right than do
it twice.
Theo
All this theory and possibility is trumped by the fact that a soldered
joint actually leaves the pairs a lot more twisted than an RJ45 plug and
socket does.

And a soldered joint inside a house is far less likely to corrode than a
punch down...

I repeat my mantra. Punch down is designed so that numpties can do
wiring, and the Ethernet specification is robust enough for rather crap
connections not to fail.

And punchdown is rather crap compared with soldering.

In many years of Ethernet I have NEVER come across a link that 'worked
with high error rate'

They work, or they don't IME.

PS you won't see errors in file transfer using TCP/IP because that has
its own error checking. The effect of corruption on IP links is to
reduce throughput, as the retransmissions become more frequent.

If your Ethernet is doing full speed IP transfers it has nothing wrong
with it.
--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith
The Natural Philosopher
2024-05-13 14:12:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
Presuming that works, why not just twist the cables together, strand by
strand, with a shrink tube around each strand.
That does work, but its corrosion liable., Solder them as well
--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe
David
2024-05-13 13:03:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due
to difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work
surface or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
https://www.comms-express.com/products/cat5e-utp-junction-box/
Note however that you would lose access to the internal socket, since
you can't just daisy chain network sockets.
(If you need the internal socket, then select an AP with more than one
ethernet port on it, and bring a second CAT5 back from the AP, to
terminate on the socket)
Thanks to all so far.

I will check, but a double back box already accommodating two Coax cables
and a Cat5E cable may not have enough spare space for a punch down
connector.

Hmmm...more space than I expected.
Might be able to get a punch down connector in there.
However I seem to have left plenty of spare cable up inside the cavity
(always a good idea) so I might just have enough to got through the wall.

The work was done 12 years ago so my memory is a bit rusty.

Anyway it is a plasterboard box so should be reasonably easy to get the
box out of the wall for further investigation.

Looks like I will be using external Ethernet cabling.

Are there any issues with using normal indoor Cat5E punch down connectors?
I assume you just have to strip back to the external sleeve as you would
with an internal cable.
Will the cable outer still fit into connectors (RJ45 plug) or do you need
a different plug?

The planned run to the shed would have a socket at either end, but running
cables outside from a router would require plugs.

Cheers



Dave R
--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64
Andy Burns
2024-05-13 20:50:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
I will check, but a double back box already accommodating two Coax cables
and a Cat5E cable may not have enough spare space for a punch down
connector.
Fitting 'RJ45' plugs and using a coupler might eat less space ...
Paul
2024-05-13 13:47:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due to
difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work surface
or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
I could fit an extender (socket type) to the cable but I'm not really keen
on this. Is there a connector with punch down connectors on both sides to
extend a run of Ethernet?
As usual, once I start typing out the details I think of more options.
Cheers
Dave R
"avoid a box on the work surface"

Could you put some kit *under* the work surface ?

As long as nothing else will run into it under
there, you might be able to do a less-obvious install.

Paul
Andy Burns
2024-05-13 17:45:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a
double back box?
Room for something like this?
<https://broadbandbuyer.com/products/48185>
David
2024-05-21 06:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due to
difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work surface
or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
I could fit an extender (socket type) to the cable but I'm not really keen
on this. Is there a connector with punch down connectors on both sides to
extend a run of Ethernet?
As usual, once I start typing out the details I think of more options.
Cheers
Dave R
Are you aware that some WAPs can be configured as repeaters. No need for
any additional UTP cabling
David
2024-05-22 18:13:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due
to difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work
surface or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
I could fit an extender (socket type) to the cable but I'm not really
keen on this. Is there a connector with punch down connectors on both
sides to extend a run of Ethernet?
As usual, once I start typing out the details I think of more options.
Cheers
Dave R
Are you aware that some WAPs can be configured as repeaters. No need for
any additional UTP cabling
Yes, thanks.

The issue is getting enough signal to the WAP.

We sit right outside the bifold doors which is where the WAP would have to
go.

Problem may have been solved by a new WiFi6 WAP in the living area, which
is far more effective than the old route which was being used as a WAP.

Cheers



Dave R
--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64
David
2024-05-23 05:11:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David
Post by David
Post by David
I need to extend my Ethernet network outside to allow use of an AP to
provide signal to the garden area.
Running a new cable from the switch under the stairs is a real pain due
to difficult access between the floors around the stairs.
One option is an existing internal socket in the outside wall.
I don't think that there is enough spare cable to disconnect and run it
through the wall to the outside to a new socket, mount a router out there,
then take a cable back in to the wall socket.
I can connect a router inside, but want to avoid a box on the work
surface or adjoining wall.
Is there is a straightforward way to extend Cat5E from within a double
back box?
A very small router and power supply seems far too big.
I could fit an extender (socket type) to the cable but I'm not really
keen on this. Is there a connector with punch down connectors on both
sides to extend a run of Ethernet?
As usual, once I start typing out the details I think of more options.
Cheers
Dave R
Are you aware that some WAPs can be configured as repeaters. No need for
any additional UTP cabling
Yes, thanks.
The issue is getting enough signal to the WAP.
We sit right outside the bifold doors which is where the WAP would have to
go.
Problem may have been solved by a new WiFi6 WAP in the living area, which
is far more effective than the old route which was being used as a WAP.
Cheers
Dave R
If you still have problems, you could try using a directional (gain)
antenna, a booster amplifier or a combination of both, such as

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285737697246

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174337934800

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404903265043

If you need to buy cables with SMA connectors, be aware that they come
in two flavours, SMA and SMA-RP (Reverse Polarity). Wifi antenna
connectors are usually SMA-RP.

At 2.4GHz the cables are lossy, and it is very easy to loose more signal
in the cable that you are likely to gain with a gain antenna or a signal
amplifier.

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