EV Voltage

[Jeff Gaines]

I have just seen an advert for teaching in further education. It includes
the compulsory mix of people from various different galaxies to satisfy
the woke brigade.

There was a young lady withdrawing from under an EV bonnet with a
voltmeter in her hand saying "the voltage is 10 volts, down from 600".

Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Gaines
I have just seen an advert for teaching in further education. It includes
the compulsory mix of people from various different galaxies to satisfy
the woke brigade.
There was a young lady withdrawing from under an EV bonnet with a
voltmeter in her hand saying "the voltage is 10 volts, down from 600".
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

They're usually 400V or 800V or something in those ballparks, with about 30%
difference between full and empty (so an battery being 800V when full could
be 615V when empty). Hybrids can have a bit more variation (more like
150-300V though). There is usually a 12V auxiliary battery (lead acid or
lithium) which could be down to 10V if it was very flat.

But you'd not be poking around the traction voltages with a multimeter
without being fully rubber gloved up, and it makes no sense to say it's '10V
down from 600V', unless your traction battery is so badly damaged that it's
scrap.

Theo

[Tim Streater]

Post by Jeff Gaines
I have just seen an advert for teaching in further education. It includes
the compulsory mix of people from various different galaxies to satisfy
the woke brigade.
There was a young lady withdrawing from under an EV bonnet with a
voltmeter in her hand saying "the voltage is 10 volts, down from 600".
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

My Auris hybrid's battery supplies around 700V. And if an EV's motor is 49kW,
that's still gonna be 70A so it'll need fairly chunky wiring. You're hardly
going to want it to be several time chunkier by having much of a lower
voltage.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Jeff Gaines
I have just seen an advert for teaching in further education. It
includes the compulsory mix of people from various different galaxies to
satisfy the woke brigade.
There was a young lady withdrawing from under an EV bonnet with a
voltmeter in her hand saying "the voltage is 10 volts, down from 600".
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

I think that is probably about right. They are certainly lethal.

Lets say you want 180 bhp. That comes to around 240kW

At 12V that would be 20,000 A. Compared with a starter motors say 400A.
That is serious cable sizes you need, but up at 600V you are now into
400A territory. Still horrendous, but manageable.
600V is something that fast semiconductors can switch OK and 400A is not
the end of the world either.

[Nick Finnigan]

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Lets say you want 180 bhp. That comes to around 240kW

Another little detail ?

[nib]

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Lets say you want 180 bhp. That comes to around 240kW

 Another little detail ?

180 BHP = 134 kW !!

nib

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by nib

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Lets say you want 180 bhp. That comes to around 240kW

  Another little detail ?

180 BHP = 134 kW !!
nib

Oh shit. Had it upside down...My bad

[mm0fmf]

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Lets say you want 180 bhp. That comes to around 240kW

My car has a 240kW engine. In old money that's 309BHP or 313PS in
new-fangled Euro-horses.

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)

I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.

Thanks for the info!

[alan_m]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have
a Suzuki mild hybrid which uses  48 volt battery under the passenger
seat

and an internal combustion engine to provide most of the bhp :)

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by alan_m

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have
a Suzuki mild hybrid which uses  48 volt battery under the passenger
seat

and an internal combustion engine to provide most of the bhp :)

Hallelujah for the IC engine. I am considering a new car, small enough to
fit my 1980's garage. Any suggestions, IC only and about Kia Picanto size,
welcome!

[Tim Streater]

Post by Jeff Gaines
--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
640k ought to be enough for anyone.
(Bill Gates, 1981)

[Chris Hogg]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by alan_m

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have
a Suzuki mild hybrid which uses  48 volt battery under the passenger
seat

and an internal combustion engine to provide most of the bhp :)

Hallelujah for the IC engine. I am considering a new car, small enough to
fit my 1980's garage. Any suggestions, IC only and about Kia Picanto size,
welcome!

I bought a Picanto a couple of years ago with just that requirement,
that it should fit into my 1960's garage and still allow me to get out
of it. FWIW I'm delighted with it.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by alan_m
and an internal combustion engine to provide most of the bhp :)
Hallelujah for the IC engine. I am considering a new car, small enough to
fit my 1980's garage. Any suggestions, IC only and about Kia Picanto size,
welcome!

This site is pretty good for quick comparisons of dimensions:
<https://www.automobiledimension.com/>

[Brian]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by alan_m

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have
a Suzuki mild hybrid which uses  48 volt battery under the passenger
seat

and an internal combustion engine to provide most of the bhp :)

Hallelujah for the IC engine. I am considering a new car, small enough to
fit my 1980's garage. Any suggestions, IC only and about Kia Picanto size,
welcome!

We bought a Toyota Aygo as a second car just over 3 years ago, it serves as
Senior Management’s Car and we tow it ( on a trailer) behind our motorhome
- it is one of the lightest cars in its class.

We are very pleased with it. It came with a 3 year warranty but, if you
have it serviced by Toyota, they extend it every year up to 10 years.

For a small, basic, car, it has a number of ‘gizmos’ - eg lane departure
warning, to close to vehicle in front warming.

Ours is the 2021 model but they have revamped the range since and they have
even more gizmos.

Fuel economy is very good. Around town ( which is our normal use) 46 mpg.
On a clear run, nearer 50. Plus, ours came with a spare wheel.

[Theo]

Post by Brian

Post by Jeff Gaines
Hallelujah for the IC engine. I am considering a new car, small enough to
fit my 1980's garage. Any suggestions, IC only and about Kia Picanto size,
welcome!

We bought a Toyota Aygo as a second car just over 3 years ago, it serves as
Senior Management’s Car and we tow it ( on a trailer) behind our motorhome
- it is one of the lightest cars in its class.
We are very pleased with it. It came with a 3 year warranty but, if you
have it serviced by Toyota, they extend it every year up to 10 years.

The Aygo / Peugeot 107 / Citroen C1 (all the same car) has a solid
reputation for reliability too. The semi-auto gearbox is annoying though -
better to go for the manual.

The new one is the Aygo X which has more plastic trim to make it more
crossover-y, if that's your thing.

Theo

[Brian]

Post by Theo

Post by Brian

Post by Jeff Gaines
Hallelujah for the IC engine. I am considering a new car, small enough to
fit my 1980's garage. Any suggestions, IC only and about Kia Picanto size,
welcome!

We bought a Toyota Aygo as a second car just over 3 years ago, it serves as
Senior Management’s Car and we tow it ( on a trailer) behind our motorhome
- it is one of the lightest cars in its class.
We are very pleased with it. It came with a 3 year warranty but, if you
have it serviced by Toyota, they extend it every year up to 10 years.

The Aygo / Peugeot 107 / Citroen C1 (all the same car) has a solid
reputation for reliability too. The semi-auto gearbox is annoying though -
better to go for the manual.

I wasn’t aware there was a semi- auto.

I think the Peugeot / Citroen versions ended with the version we have ( ie
pre Aygo X)

Post by Theo
The new one is the Aygo X which has more plastic trim to make it more
crossover-y, if that's your thing.

Yes, it looks ‘inflated’, although I think it is essentially the same
running gear.

It seems to be a trend when updating small cars to ‘inflate’ them. Smart
did it. Kia did it with the Picanto. Now Toyota.

[Marland]

Post by Theo

Post by Brian

Post by Jeff Gaines
Hallelujah for the IC engine. I am considering a new car, small enough to
fit my 1980's garage. Any suggestions, IC only and about Kia Picanto size,
welcome!

We bought a Toyota Aygo as a second car just over 3 years ago, it serves as
Senior Management’s Car and we tow it ( on a trailer) behind our motorhome
- it is one of the lightest cars in its class.
We are very pleased with it. It came with a 3 year warranty but, if you
have it serviced by Toyota, they extend it every year up to 10 years.

The Aygo / Peugeot 107 / Citroen C1 (all the same car) has a solid
reputation for reliability too. The semi-auto gearbox is annoying though -
better to go for the manual.

Yes , I inherited my Mothers Aygo the earlier version and it has the
semi-auto which is basically a manual box with a computer controlled
electrically driven clutch.It is not the smoothest of changes and sometimes
cannot make up its mind which is the best gear to be in so hunts up and
down.
Fortunately you can just flip it to manual selection and using that you can
make them progress quite well especially uphills where the auto position
leaves it too late to change down and you lose momentum.
The clutches wear out like a conventional one which leaves a dilemma ,
Toyota charge a lot to change the clutch but a lot of small independents
won’t touch them because they have a reputation of being a pig to set up.
That is often because they haven’t followed the correct shutdown procedure
which sets the plate in the correct position before dismantling.
I had ours done at a chain called Mr Clutch , don’t normally use such
chains but when I rang up to confirm the £500 quote was for the semi auto
the bloke said “Yes” ,we are used to them, you just have to put them to
sleep.first. They did the job successfully without drama though the car
drove like a dog for the first few journeys afterwards,that is normal as
the electronic control self learns the position of the clutch plate and to
an extent the driver style and it takes awhile to settle down.
Another reason independents don’t like them as customers need convincing
this is the case and is not down to poor fitting on their part.

GH

[Tim+]

Post by Brian
Fuel economy is very good. Around town ( which is our normal use) 46 mpg.
On a clear run, nearer 50. Plus, ours came with a spare wheel.

For a tiny lightweight car that’s really rather abysmal. My wife’s diesel
4WD Yeti does 50-60 mpg.

Tim

[Chris Green]

Post by Tim+

Post by Brian
Fuel economy is very good. Around town ( which is our normal use) 46 mpg.
On a clear run, nearer 50. Plus, ours came with a spare wheel.

For a tiny lightweight car that’s really rather abysmal. My wife’s diesel
4WD Yeti does 50-60 mpg.

Yes, so did our (2009 vintage) Citroen C5 Tourer (i.e. estate car).
Maybe nearer 50mpg most of the time but it always made me wonder why
people got tiny little cars because they were 'more economical'.

[nib]

Post by Chris Green

Post by Tim+

Post by Brian
Fuel economy is very good. Around town ( which is our normal use) 46 mpg.
On a clear run, nearer 50. Plus, ours came with a spare wheel.

For a tiny lightweight car that’s really rather abysmal. My wife’s diesel
4WD Yeti does 50-60 mpg.

Yes, so did our (2009 vintage) Citroen C5 Tourer (i.e. estate car).
Maybe nearer 50mpg most of the time but it always made me wonder why
people got tiny little cars because they were 'more economical'.

They can be. My Smart (really tiny) did an overall average over 25000
miles of 55, and a diesel Panda (not much bigger) did 58 average over
50000 miles. Both total mileage divided by total fuel.

nib

[Chris Green]

Post by nib

Post by Chris Green

Post by Tim+

Post by Brian
Fuel economy is very good. Around town ( which is our normal use) 46 mpg.
On a clear run, nearer 50. Plus, ours came with a spare wheel.

For a tiny lightweight car that’s really rather abysmal. My wife’s diesel
4WD Yeti does 50-60 mpg.

Yes, so did our (2009 vintage) Citroen C5 Tourer (i.e. estate car).
Maybe nearer 50mpg most of the time but it always made me wonder why
people got tiny little cars because they were 'more economical'.

They can be. My Smart (really tiny) did an overall average over 25000
miles of 55, and a diesel Panda (not much bigger) did 58 average over
50000 miles. Both total mileage divided by total fuel.

But then you'd need to hire something bigger whenever you needed extra
space. Our C5 got to carry all sorts of quite bulky bits of
furniture, washing machines, dishwasher, timber for fencing, christmas
trees etc. .... all at about 50mpg. It had done over 200k miles when
we sold it. It cost us £3000 some time before 2016 and we sold it
last year for £1000. Big cars tend to be cheaper secondhand.

[nib]

Post by Tim+

Post by Brian
Fuel economy is very good. Around town ( which is our normal use) 46 mpg.
On a clear run, nearer 50. Plus, ours came with a spare wheel.

For a tiny lightweight car that’s really rather abysmal. My wife’s diesel
4WD Yeti does 50-60 mpg.
Tim

Indeed. Our petrol hybrid, which weighs nearly 1500kg, can get close 60
mi/gall on a benign long run.

(Harder to work out around town as it's not trivial to separate out the
electric and petrol inputs).

nib

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by nib
Indeed. Our petrol hybrid, which weighs nearly 1500kg, can get close 60
mi/gall on a benign long run.
(Harder to work out around town as it's not trivial to separate out the
electric and petrol inputs).
nib

Most small diesels can get up to 60mpg.
Hybrids have no advantage outside of town.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

[Chris Hogg]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

My simple understanding of these things is that with AC voltages, you
have a bit of cunning circuitry that detects when the voltage passes
through zero (and hence the current also) and switches off at that
point. Back EMF, caused by the dying current (V = DI/DT) and which is
in turn responsible for the spark, is thus zero at that moment, and
because V is zero, hence no spark. But with DC, current is always at
the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum, and hence a big spark to try
and maintain that current (Le Chatelier's principle).

But I'm sure it's more complicated than that! Someone will be along in
a few seconds to correct me.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

My simple understanding of these things is that with AC voltages, you
have a bit of cunning circuitry that detects when the voltage passes
through zero (and hence the current also) and switches off at that
point. Back EMF, caused by the dying current (V = DI/DT) and which is
in turn responsible for the spark, is thus zero at that moment, and
because V is zero, hence no spark. But with DC, current is always at
the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum, and hence a big spark to try
and maintain that current (Le Chatelier's principle).
But I'm sure it's more complicated than that! Someone will be along in
a few seconds to correct me.

Solid state.

The motors are three phase brushless AC motors anyway. But the solid
state stuff is capable of breaking many thousands of amps and any
flyback voltages are clamped with diodes etc. Usually high frequency
pulse width modulations is used to control power and the inductance of
the motor windings limits the start up current.
Superb engineering. Shame about the batteries.

[Tim Streater]

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

[Chris Hogg]

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off, I
goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

[Tim Streater]

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off, I
goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

Well there is that, yes.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off, I
goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is inductance and capacitance
all over the place.

The motors are all AC, and lord knows there have to be massive clamp
diodes to take care of breaking any inductive circuits

[Theo]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off, I
goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is inductance and capacitance
all over the place.
The motors are all AC, and lord knows there have to be massive clamp
diodes to take care of breaking any inductive circuits

They're three phase variable-voltage variable-frequency drives. There will
no doubt be snubber networks to control transients as the MOSFETs/IGBTs turn
on and off. The aim being to commutate the current through the windings so
there aren't any sharp edges (which would cause EMI, amongst other
undesirable effects).

Theo

[charles]

Post by Theo

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off, I
goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is inductance and capacitance
all over the place.
The motors are all AC, and lord knows there have to be massive clamp
diodes to take care of breaking any inductive circuits

They're three phase variable-voltage variable-frequency drives. There
will no doubt be snubber networks to control transients as the
MOSFETs/IGBTs turn on and off. The aim being to commutate the current
through the windings so there aren't any sharp edges (which would cause
EMI, amongst other undesirable effects).

Certainly I've never heard any noises on the radio attribuable to the drive.

[Theo]

Post by charles

Post by Theo

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its
maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off, I
goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is inductance and capacitance
all over the place.
The motors are all AC, and lord knows there have to be massive clamp
diodes to take care of breaking any inductive circuits

They're three phase variable-voltage variable-frequency drives. There
will no doubt be snubber networks to control transients as the
MOSFETs/IGBTs turn on and off. The aim being to commutate the current
through the windings so there aren't any sharp edges (which would cause
EMI, amongst other undesirable effects).

Certainly I've never heard any noises on the radio attribuable to the drive.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-electric-cars-are-ditching-am-radio/

[charles]

Post by Theo

Post by charles

Post by Theo

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at
its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off,
I goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is inductance and
capacitance all over the place.
The motors are all AC, and lord knows there have to be massive
clamp diodes to take care of breaking any inductive circuits

They're three phase variable-voltage variable-frequency drives. There
will no doubt be snubber networks to control transients as the
MOSFETs/IGBTs turn on and off. The aim being to commutate the current
through the windings so there aren't any sharp edges (which would
cause EMI, amongst other undesirable effects).

Certainly I've never heard any noises on the radio attribuable to the drive.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-electric-cars-are-ditching-am-radio/

I'd had VHF/FM in the car since my Cortina, which I bought in 1971. I now
listen mainly on DAB

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by charles

Post by Theo

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Tim Streater

But with DC, current is always at the maximum, so DI/DT is at its maximum ...

If the current is at its maximum, i.e. not varying, then di/dt = 0.

If I is at its maximum, and the circuit is suddenly switched off, I
goes to zero very fast, and dI/dT is thus very high.

Except it doesn't work like that. There is inductance and capacitance
all over the place.
The motors are all AC, and lord knows there have to be massive clamp
diodes to take care of breaking any inductive circuits

They're three phase variable-voltage variable-frequency drives. There
will no doubt be snubber networks to control transients as the
MOSFETs/IGBTs turn on and off. The aim being to commutate the current
through the windings so there aren't any sharp edges (which would cause
EMI, amongst other undesirable effects).

Certainly I've never heard any noises on the radio attribuable to the drive.

Which considering what is being switched is pretty staggering. For
efficiency, the voltage is chopped at a few MHz. That in itself isn't
too bad because you take that straight to an inductor before it gets
anywhere near a motor, and that inductor takes nearly all the HF crap
out of the high current stuff.

With no commutators doing the commutation - its all solid state - there
are no arcing brushes etc.

And by using permanent magnets in the rotors the moving parts don't need
electricity. So no slip rings either.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses  48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

The secret is to have no mechanical switches at all. Except maybe a
last-ditch fusible link
Motors are brushless. Controllers are solid state. I would imagine that
there is a separate low voltage circuit for all the instruments and
other stuff like windows and lights

[SteveW]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses  48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the
issue of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than
AC arcs, so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are
taken with EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what
might they be?

The secret is to have no mechanical switches at all. Except maybe a
last-ditch fusible link
Motors are brushless. Controllers are solid state. I would imagine that
there is a separate low voltage circuit for all the instruments and
other stuff like windows and lights

All the instruments, lights, door locks, entertainment systems, security
systems, etc. run off a good old-fashioned 12V lead-acid battery. All
EVs charge this from the traction battery when running and many will
charge it, while turned off, if the 12V battery gets low, as long as the
traction battery is not too low.

Indeed EVs can need a "jump start", if the 12V battery is too low
(either failing or left parked up for months) and they can't power up
the control systems.

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

There's precharge circuitry. You get an arc because there's a potential
difference between two points (let's say 400V dc and 0V), enough to ionise
the air between them and cause a low resistance path. Current flows, more
ionisation happens, and it becomes self-sustaining.

What the circuits do when switching is to establish a low current path
first. So you have one terminal at 400V and another at 0V. You apply a
high resistance path to bring up the second terminal to 400V at a low
current. Because it's low current it's not enough to sustain an arc.

Now there's 400V on both terminals and so minimal potential difference
between them. Next you close the main contactor and the high current
connection is made. Because both sides are at 400V there's no potential
difference across the contactor and so no arc is formed as it closes.

Since the motor/inverters are software controlled, you also arrange that
there's no current being drawn when opening/closing contactors, both to
avoid pulling arc currents and welding contactor terminals.

Theo

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Theo

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

There's precharge circuitry. You get an arc because there's a potential
difference between two points (let's say 400V dc and 0V), enough to ionise
the air between them and cause a low resistance path. Current flows, more
ionisation happens, and it becomes self-sustaining.
What the circuits do when switching is to establish a low current path
first. So you have one terminal at 400V and another at 0V. You apply a
high resistance path to bring up the second terminal to 400V at a low
current. Because it's low current it's not enough to sustain an arc.
Now there's 400V on both terminals and so minimal potential difference
between them. Next you close the main contactor and the high current
connection is made. Because both sides are at 400V there's no potential
difference across the contactor and so no arc is formed as it closes.
Since the motor/inverters are software controlled, you also arrange that
there's no current being drawn when opening/closing contactors, both to
avoid pulling arc currents and welding contactor terminals.
Theo

Are there actually any contactors at all in a BEV?
I would assume its 100% solid state.

[Theo]

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Are there actually any contactors at all in a BEV?
I would assume its 100% solid state.

Yes, for safety. The contactors are typically inside the battery such that
the high voltage is completely isolated (both sides) when the vehicle is
turned off. The 12V system's job is to boot the computers and then engage
the contactors so that traction power can flow - if the computers say no
then the battery remains isolated. If the plastic 'service plug' is pulled
then the battery is isolated so it's safe for mechanics to work on the car.

If the vehicle detects an anomaly (eg airbags triggered) the first thing
that happens is that the contactors open to isolate the battery. They can
also blow a pyro fuse so that the battery is permanently isolated until
taken to a workshop which is able to check for crash damage. There also can
be a first responder loop which doesn't carry any power, but is just a
signal that when cut to isolate everything in case of cutting occupants out
of a crash.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Are there actually any contactors at all in a BEV?

Typically within the battery pack.

[Fredxx]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running  on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses  48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

The energy associated with an arc depends on storage in inductors and
whether the arc can be sustained at the voltage across the contact gap
and the speed at which the contacts separate. The medium also makes a
difference where sulphur hexafluoride is used in some HV switches to
quench the arc.

EVs generally have a last ditch physical contact, and Ed China has a
tear down of such a failed switch on YouTube for those interested.

[Tricky Dicky]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

Dunno about arcing precautions but the first plug in Kuga I had was subject
to a recall due to some issue with charging the batteries. When it went in
to have the batteries changed it had to be parked in one corner of the
garage with barriers erected to stop anyone touching it and a guy had to
come all the way from Germany to disconnect everything and make it safe. It
did make me wonder why it was safe for me to drive it about for several
months beforehand yet it needed such elaborate precautions once in the
garage?

Richard

[Theo]

Post by Tricky Dicky

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Jeff Gaines
Does that make sense, are there EVs somehow running on 600 volt power
supplies?

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP :-)
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved. I have a
Suzuki mild hybrid which uses 48 volt battery under the passenger seat
and had imagined that was the norm.
Thanks for the info!

I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

Dunno about arcing precautions but the first plug in Kuga I had was subject
to a recall due to some issue with charging the batteries. When it went in
to have the batteries changed it had to be parked in one corner of the
garage with barriers erected to stop anyone touching it and a guy had to
come all the way from Germany to disconnect everything and make it safe. It
did make me wonder why it was safe for me to drive it about for several
months beforehand yet it needed such elaborate precautions once in the
garage?

The barriers and signage setup is a H&S requirement for anyone working on an
EV high voltage system - to prevent anyone touching anything when any of the
safety protections are disabled, eg a random mechanic or customer wandering
in.

Perhaps the garage has have a safety protocol that they have to do it any
time anyone has an EV with a high voltage issue in the workshop? Even if
they haven't actually undone anything yet.

Theo

[Marland]

Post by Jeff Layman
I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used DC with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.
While the mechanical equipment designed for traction control would be too
big to fit into an EV there were auxiliary circuits for heating and lights
that used smaller switches.
Fortunately in recent decades the older mechanical equipment has been
replaced by solid state circuitry a process that has been taking place all
over the world and developing all the time, hence now EV’s have come along
it has been relatively easy to source solid state circuitry designs that
are small enough for EV’s.


GH

[Theo]

Post by Marland
It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used DC with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.
While the mechanical equipment designed for traction control would be too
big to fit into an EV there were auxiliary circuits for heating and lights
that used smaller switches.
Fortunately in recent decades the older mechanical equipment has been
replaced by solid state circuitry a process that has been taking place all
over the world and developing all the time, hence now EV’s have come along
it has been relatively easy to source solid state circuitry designs that
are small enough for EV’s.

One project I'm hoping somebody does is to retrofit an EV battery + power
system to an old electric train. If you start with an 800V battery then
it's more or less a drop in to a 750V EMU. You could optionally use the
inverter to power the DC motors if the original traction controls were
unserviceable. Sounds like a fun project for somebody in the position to do
it.

Theo

[Marland]

Post by Theo

Post by Marland
It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used DC with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.

One project I'm hoping somebody does is to retrofit an EV battery + power
system to an old electric train. If you start with an 800V battery then
it's more or less a drop in to a 750V EMU. You could optionally use the
inverter to power the DC motors if the original traction controls were
unserviceable. Sounds like a fun project for somebody in the position to do
it.

Do you mean actually equipment from an EV car or the concept of putting
batteries into a former DC supplied electric train with equipment rated to
do the job?
If the latter then work has been going on for sometime with a company who
purchased a lot of former
District line vehicles from the London Underground called Vivarail.
Like lot of these things the task took longer than anticipated and the
company went into administration. However gWr purchased the remains and
continued the project and is testing on the
Greenford branch in London.
Details here

GH

[Theo]

Post by Marland

Post by Theo

Post by Marland
It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used DC with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.

One project I'm hoping somebody does is to retrofit an EV battery + power
system to an old electric train. If you start with an 800V battery then
it's more or less a drop in to a 750V EMU. You could optionally use the
inverter to power the DC motors if the original traction controls were
unserviceable. Sounds like a fun project for somebody in the position to do
it.

Do you mean actually equipment from an EV car or the concept of putting
batteries into a former DC supplied electric train with equipment rated to
do the job?

Put a used EV battery in an old SR EMU, drive it on electric with no third
rail, something no EMU has done in preservation. I think the guard's
compartment in a lot of them would be enough to fit an EV battery, if the
~200kg weight is something they can take (~3 pax, so probably).

Post by Marland
If the latter then work has been going on for sometime with a company who
purchased a lot of former
District line vehicles from the London Underground called Vivarail.
Like lot of these things the task took longer than anticipated and the
company went into administration. However gWr purchased the remains and
continued the project and is testing on the
Greenford branch in London.

That's way above the budget of the average heritage railway.

Theo

[Marland]

Post by Theo

Post by Marland

Post by Theo

Post by Marland
It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used DC with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.

One project I'm hoping somebody does is to retrofit an EV battery + power
system to an old electric train. If you start with an 800V battery then
it's more or less a drop in to a 750V EMU. You could optionally use the
inverter to power the DC motors if the original traction controls were
unserviceable. Sounds like a fun project for somebody in the position to do
it.

Do you mean actually equipment from an EV car or the concept of putting
batteries into a former DC supplied electric train with equipment rated to
do the job?

Put a used EV battery in an old SR EMU, drive it on electric with no third
rail, something no EMU has done in preservation. I think the guard's
compartment in a lot of them would be enough to fit an EV battery, if the
~200kg weight is something they can take (~3 pax, so probably).

Post by Marland
If the latter then work has been going on for sometime with a company who
purchased a lot of former
District line vehicles from the London Underground called Vivarail.
Like lot of these things the task took longer than anticipated and the
company went into administration. However gWr purchased the remains and
continued the project and is testing on the
Greenford branch in London.

That's way above the budget of the average heritage railway.
Theo

Well you didn’t even mention heritage railway in your previous post,
some old prewar tube trains that survived on the Isle of Wight till a few
years ago were acquired by various groups some of which proposed to convert
them to battery. Nothing so far though ,they will probably rust away before
anything happens.
Old electric trains don’t appeal to the general public like steam trains,
the attempts to preserve them
are frequently down to a small group of say half a dozen people who can
barely stem the corrosion
and most heritage railways haven’t got room for something several coaches
long that doesn’t move.
The ones that do are off the beaten track so difficult to reach , one of
the old tube trains could only find a home in South Wales.
Several projects have ended up just delaying the inevitable appointment
with a gas axe.

GH

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Marland

Post by Jeff Layman
I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used DC with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.

Indeed, but those aren't "consumer" vehicles, and all it would require
to stop the arc is to cut the power supply which is fairly
straightforward with an external source. That wouldn't be so easy with
the power coming from batteries inside the vehicle.

[nib]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Marland

Post by Jeff Layman
I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used  DC  with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.

Indeed, but those aren't "consumer" vehicles, and all it would require
to stop the arc is to cut the power supply which is fairly
straightforward with an external source. That wouldn't be so easy with
the power coming from batteries inside the vehicle.

Here is an interesting summary of the requirements for an EV contactor:

https://www.durakool.com/information/technology/hvdc-contactors-failure-modes/

nib

[Jeff Layman]

Post by nib

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Marland

Post by Jeff Layman
I'd known about the high voltage involved, but one thing I'd never
thought about (because high-voltage DC was rare before EVs) is the issue
of any arc forming. These are more difficult to extinguish than AC arcs,
so I wondered if anybody knew if any special precautions are taken with
EV circuitry to deal with DC arcs if they form. If so, what might they be?

It isn’t that rare just not in cars, most commuter trains in Southern
England and a few on Merseyside have used  DC  with similar voltages for
decades and before them Trams and Trolleybuses.

Indeed, but those aren't "consumer" vehicles, and all it would require
to stop the arc is to cut the power supply which is fairly
straightforward with an external source. That wouldn't be so easy with
the power coming from batteries inside the vehicle.

https://www.durakool.com/information/technology/hvdc-contactors-failure-modes/

Thanks for that - most interesting. I particularly like Fig.11 Step 5 -
"Contacts weld closed"!

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Jeff Gaines

[quoted text muted]

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved.

It could be deduced from some basic knowledge:

you are going to need a few horsepower for a car to move. Each horsepower
being *roughly* 750W but for speed 1kW will do.

A modest 50horsepower car is therefore 50kW.

If you want to keep the cables manageable (and "cheap") you need more
volts than amps. So your 50,000 becomes something like (say) 500x100

All very much done without stopping and just a brief sanity check at the
end, but you are still looking at voltage in excess of 500.

And given the weight and performance of the EVs I have ridden/driven,
50kW was a very very modest punt.

I see other posters have put some actual numbers together, but I did that
all without reference to anything (to show it can be done and keep the
grey cells moving).

It is being able to think like this that makes me weep when I hear the
absolute bollocks spouted by people who have paid more for their
hairstyle than their education on popular television. And it's why I have
zero respect for the real scientists who sagely nod as it is trotted out.
The rather egregious plugging of EVs by people like Prof. Hannah Fry
being a case in hand. There is no way she can't not know how shite they
are.

How about "hydrogen power" which is the new eco bollocks.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Jethro_uk
The rather egregious plugging of EVs by people like Prof. Hannah Fry
being a case in hand. There is no way she can't not know how shite they
are.

It is surprising how marrow most academics are. One tutor I had knew all
there was to know about prestressed reinforced concrete, and very little
else.

IIRC the lovely Hannah is a mathematician.

Electric cars are superb pieces of engineering. The one problem is the
battery. Unless you know how electrochemistry works, and its a narrow
discipline, you might believe that 'one day batteries will be ten times
better' despite this breaking the laws of physics.

I found the same with 'renewable energy' at a simple glance, it all
looks do-able. Until you try to make a reliable grid out of it.

[Chris Hogg]

On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 11:32:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Jethro_uk
The rather egregious plugging of EVs by people like Prof. Hannah Fry
being a case in hand. There is no way she can't not know how shite they
are.

It is surprising how marrow most academics are. One tutor I had knew all
there was to know about prestressed reinforced concrete, and very little
else.

Knowing more and more about less and less, ultimately knowing
everything about nothing.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
the lovely Hannah

+1

[Jethro_uk]

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Electric cars are superb pieces of engineering. The one problem is the
battery. Unless you know how electrochemistry works, and its a narrow
discipline, you might believe that 'one day batteries will be ten times
better' despite this breaking the laws of physics.

The latest "pioneering" thinking is to use metastable chemicals in
batteries. Obviously it needs more research (so there's the excuse to
milk the taxpayer once more). And already - despite my sole A level in
chemistry - I have decoded this as meaning they want to use explosives in
batteries to store energy. What could possibly go wrong ?

If the greenies were serious about climate change etc etc, then the very
first rule of EVs would have been exchangeable batteries. Eliminating the
embarrassing charge times and making them pretty much drop in replacement
for ICE cars.

But no, we had to allow a free for all with manufacturers being allowed
to fight for their corner of the market. Guaranteeing the pisspoor
*overall* performance of EVs meant no sensible person would buy one.

And so it come to pass.

It really is this simple. If the "alternative" to the current <whatever>
is so shit you need to pass laws to force it into the market, then the
public will react accordingly.

See also: paper straws and CFL lightbulbs.

The very first cars ever made - in the 1800s - were electric. If only
someone had bothered to do some frankly primary school research into why
they did not take off. It would have saved trillions - and more
importantly a fucktonne of public goodwill.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Jethro_uk
The very first cars ever made - in the 1800s - were electric. If only
someone had bothered to do some frankly primary school research into why
they did not take off. It would have saved trillions - and more
importantly a fucktonne of public goodwill.

"They think they're so modern and classless and free
But they're still fucking peasants far as I can see"

The modern Liberal is morally so right, he she or it can safely ignore
the laws of Nature.

[Max Demian]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines

[quoted text muted]

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved.

you are going to need a few horsepower for a car to move. Each horsepower
being *roughly* 750W but for speed 1kW will do.
A modest 50horsepower car is therefore 50kW.

*Very* modest.

Before WW2 manufacturers use to brag about 10 or 12 horsepower, but they
used a formula based on cylinder size and so on which became out of
date, so they were much more than that.

My 175cc Honda m/c was rated at "20PS" which is about 20HP.

I like Rolls Royce saying that their power was "adequate".

[Fredxx]

Post by Max Demian

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines

[quoted text muted]

Many thanks for the replies Theo/Tim Streater/TNP
I am astonished, I had no idea that sort of voltage was involved.

you are going to need a few horsepower for a car to move. Each horsepower
being *roughly* 750W but for speed 1kW will do.
A modest 50horsepower car is therefore 50kW.

*Very* modest.
Before WW2 manufacturers use to brag about 10 or 12 horsepower, but they
used a formula based on cylinder size and so on which became out of
date, so they were much more than that.
My 175cc Honda m/c was rated at "20PS" which is about 20HP.
I like Rolls Royce saying that their power was "adequate".

The Bentley version would provide a spec and used essentially the same
engine as the RR. So it was known to an approximation.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Max Demian

[quoted text muted]

*Very* modest.

It literally "off the top of my head". You get the idea etc etc ...

[Tim+]

Post by Jethro_uk
The rather egregious plugging of EVs by people like Prof. Hannah Fry
being a case in hand. There is no way she can't not know how shite they
are.

Weird. Have you owned or driven one?

After 50 years of driving conventional cars it’s only take one EV to
convince me that I wouldn’t want to go back to an ICE vehicle as a daily
driver ever again.

Post by Jethro_uk
How about "hydrogen power" which is the new eco bollocks.

It’s largely oil/gas company bollocks being promoted to preserve their
control and profits.

Tim

[nib]

Post by Tim+

Post by Jethro_uk
The rather egregious plugging of EVs by people like Prof. Hannah Fry
being a case in hand. There is no way she can't not know how shite they
are.

Weird. Have you owned or driven one?
After 50 years of driving conventional cars it’s only take one EV to
convince me that I wouldn’t want to go back to an ICE vehicle as a daily
driver ever again.

Absolutely!

It took me less than 5 minutes into my test drive to decide I want one
these!

nib

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim+

Post by Jethro_uk
The rather egregious plugging of EVs by people like Prof. Hannah Fry
being a case in hand. There is no way she can't not know how shite they
are.

Weird. Have you owned or driven one?
After 50 years of driving conventional cars it’s only take one EV to
convince me that I wouldn’t want to go back to an ICE vehicle as a daily
driver ever again.

Well the issue is what your 'daily drive' is.

A BEV would get me to the supermarket and back just fine, but I couldn't
afford to run it and an ICE car as well, which I would need for longer
trips, and the ICE car gets me to the supermarket and back just fine,
too. The supermarket does have a very full car park though, and the only
empty bays are reserved for electric cars. You never see them in it.

Post by Tim+

Post by Jethro_uk
How about "hydrogen power" which is the new eco bollocks.

It’s largely oil/gas company bollocks being promoted to preserve their
control and profits.

Its ALL eco bollocks. Government mandated profit machines. None of it
is having any effect on the climate whatsoever. It just makes people poorer.

Post by Tim+
Tim

[charles]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim+

Post by Jethro_uk
The rather egregious plugging of EVs by people like Prof. Hannah Fry
being a case in hand. There is no way she can't not know how shite they
are.

Weird. Have you owned or driven one?
After 50 years of driving conventional cars it‘s only take one EV to
convince me that I wouldn‘t want to go back to an ICE vehicle as a daily
driver ever again.

Well the issue is what your 'daily drive' is.
A BEV would get me to the supermarket and back just fine, but I couldn't
afford to run it and an ICE car as well, which I would need for longer
trips,

Why? I've more than once done a 600 mile journey in my EV. It just needs
planning.