Facemount fence panels to fronts of posts?

[James Harris]

Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

This is for a 29' front fence which needs effectively to be reinstalled
from scratch. Because of footings for the pavement it looks as though I
might have to set the fence posts a couple of inches back from the tarmac.

As such, it would help if I could affix the gravel boards and the fence
panels to the faces of the posts. The gravel boards and the panels would
then sit in a better position relative to the pavement and I'd be less
likely to see rubbish dropping down between the pavement and the gravel
boards.

As for appearance I think it would look good enough either way.

To 'facemount' the panels I'd have to install the posts at 6' pitch
rather than 6' 4" (the width of a post) so I could not easily change the
plan after starting. Hence the question.

Advice and opinions welcome. Even if I didn't have the footing problem
what do you think about the idea of screwing standard 6' panels to the
faces of the posts such that the panels abut one another?

[Theo]

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

Depends on the panels, but some don't have very thick uprights because
they're designed to spread the pressure across the whole of the groove in a
concrete post. If you screw you apply pressure at a number of fixed points
which the uprights may not be able to hold. The closeboard panels I have
have uprights about 1" square which I doubt would hold point loadings in a
storm.

OTOH it might be ok if the upright were reinforced.

Theo

[John R Walliker]

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

Depends on the panels, but some don't have very thick uprights because
they're designed to spread the pressure across the whole of the groove in a
concrete post. If you screw you apply pressure at a number of fixed points
which the uprights may not be able to hold. The closeboard panels I have
have uprights about 1" square which I doubt would hold point loadings in a
storm.
OTOH it might be ok if the upright were reinforced.
Theo

How about using concrete spurs set back with the posts slightly
overlapping the pavement?
That would look "normal" and might last a lot longer than
burying wooden posts.
John

[Andrew]

Post by John R Walliker

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

Depends on the panels, but some don't have very thick uprights because
they're designed to spread the pressure across the whole of the groove in a
concrete post.  If you screw you apply pressure at a number of fixed
points
which the uprights may not be able to hold.  The closeboard panels I have
have uprights about 1" square which I doubt would hold point loadings in a
storm.
OTOH it might be ok if the upright were reinforced.
Theo

How about using concrete spurs set back with the posts slightly
overlapping the pavement?
That would look "normal" and might last a lot longer than
burying wooden posts.
John

+1

And use the panels that cost £100 per panel because they are made of
far thicker spars and look like the overlapped arrangement you get
with 3 metre arris rails and concrete posts.

[James Harris]

Post by Andrew

Post by John R Walliker

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

Depends on the panels, but some don't have very thick uprights because
they're designed to spread the pressure across the whole of the groove in a
concrete post.  If you screw you apply pressure at a number of fixed
points
which the uprights may not be able to hold.  The closeboard panels I have
have uprights about 1" square which I doubt would hold point loadings in a
storm.
OTOH it might be ok if the upright were reinforced.
Theo

How about using concrete spurs set back with the posts slightly
overlapping the pavement?
That would look "normal" and might last a lot longer than
burying wooden posts.
John

+1
And use the panels that cost £100 per panel because they are made of
far thicker spars and look like the overlapped arrangement you get
with 3 metre arris rails and concrete posts.

Wow, £100 per panel? I'm going for nearly the cheapest fence possible so
have ordered panels which are £29 each and I still think that is too
much. :-(

[Theo]

Post by James Harris
Wow, £100 per panel? I'm going for nearly the cheapest fence possible so
have ordered panels which are £29 each and I still think that is too
much. :-(

Be aware that much of the cheapo stuff is dip treated (ie painted brown,
lazily) not pressure treated. So the fence won't last very long when
exposed to rain, UV, insects... you'd have to constantly paint it to keep it
in good order.

I paid about £50 per panel for decent pressure treated:
https://mcveighparker.com/featheredge-panels

Quality is good. It's a farm supply place and farmers won't be doing with
the cheap'n'nasty stuff you get in the sheds.

Theo

[alan_m]

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Wow, £100 per panel? I'm going for nearly the cheapest fence possible so
have ordered panels which are £29 each and I still think that is too
much. :-(

Be aware that much of the cheapo stuff is dip treated (ie painted brown,
lazily) not pressure treated. So the fence won't last very long when
exposed to rain, UV, insects... you'd have to constantly paint it to keep it
in good order.
https://mcveighparker.com/featheredge-panels
Quality is good. It's a farm supply place and farmers won't be doing with
the cheap'n'nasty stuff you get in the sheds.

I doubt if any farmer uses fence panels like that :)

[Theo]

Post by alan_m

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Wow, £100 per panel? I'm going for nearly the cheapest fence possible so
have ordered panels which are £29 each and I still think that is too
much. :-(

Be aware that much of the cheapo stuff is dip treated (ie painted brown,
lazily) not pressure treated. So the fence won't last very long when
exposed to rain, UV, insects... you'd have to constantly paint it to keep it
in good order.
https://mcveighparker.com/featheredge-panels
Quality is good. It's a farm supply place and farmers won't be doing with
the cheap'n'nasty stuff you get in the sheds.

I doubt if any farmer uses fence panels like that :)

Farmers live in farmhouses, and some of them can be quite posh. Also
they're useful for 'front of house' purposes, eg around the car parking for
the farm shop, or the holiday cottages, or whatever.

I went to their yard and they had a big stack of them, so they must be a
decent seller.

Theo

[Andrew]

Post by James Harris

Post by Andrew

Post by John R Walliker

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

Depends on the panels, but some don't have very thick uprights because
they're designed to spread the pressure across the whole of the groove in a
concrete post.  If you screw you apply pressure at a number of fixed
points
which the uprights may not be able to hold.  The closeboard panels I have
have uprights about 1" square which I doubt would hold point loadings in a
storm.
OTOH it might be ok if the upright were reinforced.
Theo

How about using concrete spurs set back with the posts slightly
overlapping the pavement?
That would look "normal" and might last a lot longer than
burying wooden posts.
John

+1
And use the panels that cost £100 per panel because they are made of
far thicker spars and look like the overlapped arrangement you get
with 3 metre arris rails and concrete posts.

Wow, £100 per panel? I'm going for nearly the cheapest fence possible so
have ordered panels which are £29 each and I still think that is too
much. :-(

Your £29 panels will rot away within 7 years.

The £100 ones will last closer to 30 because they are made
of far thicker and stronger wood, especially if you use
300mm concrete gravel 'boards' on the ground to keep the
panels out of contact with the soil. They also will not blow
out during a wild winter storm, whereas the £29 ones will
bow like a longbow and end up on your lawn or halfway
across the street.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

[alan_m]

Post by Andrew
Buy cheap, buy twice.

Or pay twice the price for the same product.

I agree that there can be a variation in the quality of panels. I have
panel fencing both sides of the garden. One fence (fitted) was paid for
by me and the other side by the neighbour, and around a year apart. I
know the costs to be very similar but I would say that the quality of
the panels used is much better on one side than the other.

[SteveW]

Post by alan_m

Post by Andrew
Buy cheap, buy twice.

Or pay twice the price for the same product.
I agree that there can be a variation in the quality of panels. I have
panel fencing both sides of the garden. One fence (fitted) was paid for
by me and the other side by the neighbour, and around a year apart.  I
know the costs to be very similar but I would say that the quality of
the panels used is much better on one side than the other.

Certainly my "cheap" slot-in fence panels don't last long - whereas most
of my parents panels are as good as new, after 40 years!

[alan_m]

Post by SteveW

Post by alan_m

Post by Andrew
Buy cheap, buy twice.

Or pay twice the price for the same product.
I agree that there can be a variation in the quality of panels. I have
panel fencing both sides of the garden. One fence (fitted) was paid
for by me and the other side by the neighbour, and around a year
apart.  I know the costs to be very similar but I would say that the
quality of the panels used is much better on one side than the other.

Certainly my "cheap" slot-in fence panels don't last long - whereas most
of my parents panels are as good as new, after 40 years!

I built my own feather edge fence at the bottom of the garden 30 years
ago and that shows no sign of rot however it was treated with a real
creosote and old engine oil mix, and quite a lot of it. It hasn't had
any maintenance since.

Built from scratch with concrete godfather post holding wooden posts and
feather edge boards from the sheds. Concrete gravel boards.
Both ends of the posts spent a week or more standing in a bucket of
creosote/oil. The planks and rails spent some time in a makeshift trough
made of plastic sheet, with the trough containing the preservative.

I do remember after constructing the fence I had to burn all the old
clothes I was wearing and it took a few baths to get rid of the smell :)

The difference in longevity may be the kind of treatments that may have
been used 40 years ago but now are banned. Cut some treated wood these
days and you may find whatever they have dipped it in for 30 seconds
hasn't penetrated beyond a millimetre.

[Theo]

Post by Andrew
Your £29 panels will rot away within 7 years.
The £100 ones will last closer to 30 because they are made
of far thicker and stronger wood, especially if you use
300mm concrete gravel 'boards' on the ground to keep the
panels out of contact with the soil. They also will not blow
out during a wild winter storm, whereas the £29 ones will
bow like a longbow and end up on your lawn or halfway
across the street.
Buy cheap, buy twice.

A data point.

Farmer-grade panels, uprights are 48mm wide, pressure treated
DIY shed grade panels, uprights are 33mm wide, dip treated

Guess which one is going to go first.

Theo

[James Harris]

Post by John R Walliker

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

Depends on the panels, but some don't have very thick uprights because
they're designed to spread the pressure across the whole of the groove in a
concrete post.  If you screw you apply pressure at a number of fixed
points
which the uprights may not be able to hold.  The closeboard panels I have
have uprights about 1" square which I doubt would hold point loadings in a
storm.
OTOH it might be ok if the upright were reinforced.
Theo

How about using concrete spurs set back with the posts slightly
overlapping the pavement?
That would look "normal" and might last a lot longer than
burying wooden posts.

That's a great idea!

I guess it wouldn't be the prettiest thing in the world but it would be
OK. I also quite like the modular idea of it allowing the wooden posts
to be replaced later without digging.

I've ordered the parts for the fence including 3"-square concrete spurs.
I was slightly surprised to be told that they are only just under 1m in
length. With, say, 2' in the ground there would not be much left over to
which to attach the posts. But I'll see what they are like (and where
they have their holes) when they get here.

[alan_m]

Post by Theo

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?

Depends on the panels, but some don't have very thick uprights because
they're designed to spread the pressure across the whole of the groove in a
concrete post. If you screw you apply pressure at a number of fixed points
which the uprights may not be able to hold. The closeboard panels I have
have uprights about 1" square which I doubt would hold point loadings in a
storm.
OTOH it might be ok if the upright were reinforced.

Many panels don't have uprights at the edges.

[Tricky Dicky]

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?
This is for a 29' front fence which needs effectively to be reinstalled
from scratch. Because of footings for the pavement it looks as though I
might have to set the fence posts a couple of inches back from the tarmac.
As such, it would help if I could affix the gravel boards and the fence
panels to the faces of the posts. The gravel boards and the panels would
then sit in a better position relative to the pavement and I'd be less
likely to see rubbish dropping down between the pavement and the gravel
boards.
As for appearance I think it would look good enough either way.
To 'facemount' the panels I'd have to install the posts at 6' pitch
rather than 6' 4" (the width of a post) so I could not easily change the
plan after starting. Hence the question.
Advice and opinions welcome. Even if I didn't have the footing problem
what do you think about the idea of screwing standard 6' panels to the
faces of the posts such that the panels abut one another?

Using panels is not the only way to create a fence. Using arris rails means
you can space the posts where most convenient and then simply clad the
framework with feather edge boards

[alan_m]

Post by Tricky Dicky
Using panels is not the only way to create a fence. Using arris rails means
you can space the posts where most convenient and then simply clad the
framework with feather edge boards
http://youtu.be/JPl0SpA-hsQ

Finished results

[Roger Mills]

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?
This is for a 29' front fence which needs effectively to be reinstalled
from scratch. Because of footings for the pavement it looks as though I
might have to set the fence posts a couple of inches back from the tarmac.
As such, it would help if I could affix the gravel boards and the fence
panels to the faces of the posts. The gravel boards and the panels would
then sit in a better position relative to the pavement and I'd be less
likely to see rubbish dropping down between the pavement and the gravel
boards.
As for appearance I think it would look good enough either way.
To 'facemount' the panels I'd have to install the posts at 6' pitch
rather than 6' 4" (the width of a post) so I could not easily change the
plan after starting. Hence the question.
Advice and opinions welcome. Even if I didn't have the footing problem
what do you think about the idea of screwing standard 6' panels to the
faces of the posts such that the panels abut one another?

You haven't said how you plan to fix the concrete gravel boards to the
front of the posts. Also be aware that most 6' concrete gravel boards
are actually 6' (1829mm) long whereas many "6'" panels are only 1800mm wide.

[alan_m]

Post by Roger Mills
You haven't said how you plan to fix the concrete gravel boards to the
front of the posts. Also be aware that most 6' concrete gravel boards
are actually 6' (1829mm) long whereas many "6'" panels are only 1800mm wide.

Wood gravel boards? Often regarded as sacrificial because in contact
with often wet soil they are likely to rot, but protect the bottom of
fence planks/panels.

[James Harris]

Post by alan_m

Post by Roger Mills
You haven't said how you plan to fix the concrete gravel boards to the
front of the posts. Also be aware that most 6' concrete gravel boards
are actually 6' (1829mm) long whereas many "6'" panels are only 1800mm wide.

Wood gravel boards? Often regarded as sacrificial because in contact
with often wet soil they are likely to rot, but protect the bottom of
fence planks/panels.

Yes, I would rather use wooden gravel boards, and that's what I've
ordered. I have a slight reservation about them because the tarmac of
the pavement hasn't been installed very well. With no hardcore layer
underneath it to support it the tarmac was just slopped into place by
the council and the edge of the tarmac is gradually sliding down into
the garden. :-o

At the moment, I'm not exactly sure how I'll handle the problem. The
choices are essentially to put a gravel board below the level of the
pavement to try to support the tarmac a little or to place the gravel
boards 'on' (i.e. just above) the edge of the tarmac. Even that's made
more complicated in that the tarmac has a slight slope. :-(

I'll see how feasible either option looks when the boards arrive and I
can try them in place.

[alan_m]

Post by James Harris
Any thoughts on screwing wooden fence panels to the /faces/ of wooden
posts rather than mounting them between the posts?
This is for a 29' front fence which needs effectively to be reinstalled
from scratch. Because of footings for the pavement it looks as though I
might have to set the fence posts a couple of inches back from the tarmac.
As such, it would help if I could affix the gravel boards and the fence
panels to the faces of the posts. The gravel boards and the panels would
then sit in a better position relative to the pavement and I'd be less
likely to see rubbish dropping down between the pavement and the gravel
boards.
As for appearance I think it would look good enough either way.
To 'facemount' the panels I'd have to install the posts at 6' pitch
rather than 6' 4" (the width of a post) so I could not easily change the
plan after starting. Hence the question.
Advice and opinions welcome. Even if I didn't have the footing problem
what do you think about the idea of screwing standard 6' panels to the
faces of the posts such that the panels abut one another?

It may not look too good butting up something like feather edge panels.
There would be a missing overlapping feather edge plank at the join.
Other styles of panels may look better.
Joins could be disguised by putting a flat plank over the join and from
the front it could look like the panels are between posts.

Is the ground level over the whole 29 foot length. If not, plan where
the steps in height need to be.

Rather than panels construct the posts and rails and then attach
individual planks to them. A suitable nail gun could come in handy.

In my experience modern treated wooden posts from the sheds don't last
that long. They will rot at the ground to air transition.
Options:
Use concrete posts
If wood bring the concrete/postcrete above the ground level and slope it
away from the post
If wood perhaps a tar type sleeve around the post spanning the ground
air barrier. Perhaps a dipping the bottom of the post in tar to above
the boundary

Put caps on the top of wooden posts to help prevent water getting into
the end grain, or at least angle the top of posts to shed water.

[Chris Hogg]

What's wrong with slotted concrete posts concreted into place,
concrete gravel boards and treated wooden panels dropped in. Long
lasting and by far the best IMO, if a little more expensive.

[Roger Mills]

Post by Chris Hogg
What's wrong with slotted concrete posts concreted into place,
concrete gravel boards and treated wooden panels dropped in. Long
lasting and by far the best IMO, if a little more expensive.

In the OP's case that would result in the fence being further back than
he would like.

Also be aware that imperial sized concrete gravel boards and metric
sized panels don't make good bedfellows! I know from first-hand experience.

[SteveW]

Post by Roger Mills

Post by Chris Hogg
What's wrong with slotted concrete posts concreted into place,
concrete gravel boards and treated wooden panels dropped in. Long
lasting and by far the best IMO, if a little more expensive.

In the OP's case that would result in the fence being further back than
he would like.
Also be aware that imperial sized concrete gravel boards and metric
sized panels don't make good bedfellows! I know from first-hand experience.

I don't know about the OP's exact situation, but in my case, with a
fence alongside a paved, public, footpath, I'd just dig post holes right
up to the paving, dig out from the side of the hole, under the paving
and concrete the post in right against the paving.

I'm sure that when putting a fence or wall between gardens, its quite
normal to be right up to the boundary line, with the concrete footings
crossing over.

A quick Google found "If your fencing needs any type of footing to
secure it, the footing is allowed to be partly beneath your neighbour’s
land. According to the Party Wall etc. Act 1996, this does not
constitute encroachment."

[Andrew]

Post by SteveW

Post by Roger Mills

Post by Chris Hogg
What's wrong with slotted concrete posts concreted into place,
concrete gravel boards and treated wooden panels dropped in. Long
lasting and by far the best IMO, if a little more expensive.

In the OP's case that would result in the fence being further back
than he would like.
Also be aware that imperial sized concrete gravel boards and metric
sized panels don't make good bedfellows! I know from first-hand experience.

I don't know about the OP's exact situation, but in my case, with a
fence alongside a paved, public, footpath, I'd just dig post holes right
up to the paving, dig out from the side of the hole, under the paving
and concrete the post in right against the paving.
I'm sure that when putting a fence or wall between gardens, its quite
normal to be right up to the boundary line, with the concrete footings
crossing over.
A quick Google found "If your fencing needs any type of footing to
secure it, the footing is allowed to be partly beneath your neighbour’s
land. According to the Party Wall etc. Act 1996, this does not
constitute encroachment."

You are confusing a party wall with a *boundary* structure.

A boundary wall or fence must not cross the boundary *above*
ground, including any overhanging coping stones, but the
foundations may cross the boundary.

Party walls may or may not cross the boundary.