artex: asbestos risk?

[Fred]

Hi,

I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

I can see there are three options: scraping, sanding, and angle
grinder(*) but I understand sanding is the worst thing you can do with
asbestos. What should I do and do I need to be worried or is the
amount and type of asbestos nothing to worry about?

TIA

[* for anyone new to uk.d-i-y: the use of an angle grinder is an
in-joke and I would not suggest it for this purpose]

[Peter Parry]

Post by Fred
I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is almost certainly
just plaster and contains no asbestos. Old Artex contained 3 to 5% of
Chrysotile (white asbestos) and poses little risk. If you want to
minimise the infinitesimal risk from artex adhering to the plaster
lumps get a mist sprayer (as used for plants) and dampen the plaster
before scraping it off.

[Fred]

Post by Peter Parry
If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is almost certainly
just plaster and contains no asbestos.

Thanks. I think the coving was held on with plaster but that plaster
is on the ceiling which is artex. My concern was that if I scraped too
hard I might remove the plaster but also the artex above it. Thanks
for the reassurance and I will give the sprayer a go too.

[harry]

Post by Fred

Post by Peter Parry
If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is almost certainly
just plaster and contains no asbestos.

Thanks. I think the coving was held on with plaster but that plaster
is on the ceiling which is artex. My concern was that if I scraped too
hard I might remove the plaster but also the artex above it. Thanks
for the reassurance and I will give the sprayer a go too.

Old artex had asbestos in it. Best left alone.
There is special stuff available to put on top of artex to getrid of
the ripples.

You can send a sample away for analysis to see if there is asbestos.
http://www.myworkman.co.uk/articles/cover_artex.php

[Peter Parry]

Post by harry

Post by Fred

Post by Peter Parry
If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is almost certainly
just plaster and contains no asbestos.

Thanks. I think the coving was held on with plaster but that plaster
is on the ceiling which is artex. My concern was that if I scraped too
hard I might remove the plaster but also the artex above it. Thanks
for the reassurance and I will give the sprayer a go too.

Old artex had asbestos in it. Best left alone.
There is special stuff available to put on top of artex to getrid of
the ripples.
You can send a sample away for analysis to see if there is asbestos.
http://www.myworkman.co.uk/articles/cover_artex.php

You can, but it isn't worth bothering, just assume it contains a small
amount of Chrysotile and treat it appropriately.

From 1976, the UK forms of Artex no longer used asbestos.

"A conservative estimate, reached by HSL [Health and Safety
Laboratory] on the basis of the available data, is that the average
level of asbestos fibres in the air when removing textured coatings
using controlled removal is 0.08 f/ml. The evidence available suggests
that uncontrolled dry hand-scraping of chrysotile-containing textured
coatings is less than twice the conservative average used for the
controlled removal. This is below the current control limit of 0.3
f/ml for chrysotile and the proposed new limit of 0.1 f/ml for all
types of asbestos."

(HSE - "Assessment of the potential extent of exposure to asbestos
(chrysotile) during the removal of asbestos-containing textured
decorative coatings" 1 Feb 2006.

[Fred]

Post by Peter Parry
From 1976, the UK forms of Artex no longer used asbestos.

My house was built mid 70s. Its either 74 or 76; I can't remember
which. Let's hope it was '76.

Post by Peter Parry
"A conservative estimate, reached by HSL [Health and Safety
Laboratory] on the basis of the available data, is that the average
level of asbestos fibres in the air when removing textured coatings
using controlled removal is 0.08 f/ml. The evidence available suggests
that uncontrolled dry hand-scraping of chrysotile-containing textured
coatings is less than twice the conservative average used for the
controlled removal. This is below the current control limit of 0.3
f/ml for chrysotile and the proposed new limit of 0.1 f/ml for all
types of asbestos."

This seems to suggest that dry scraping, which is the wrong way to do
it, is still safe, which must be good news.

Where did you get this information? is it online? I'd be interested to
read what they say about levels when sanding! Also what they say about
marley tiles.

Thanks again.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Peter Parry
From 1976, the UK forms of Artex no longer used asbestos.

My house was built mid 70s. Its either 74 or 76; I can't remember which.
Let's hope it was '76.

You need to do more than hope with something as dangerous as asbestos.

Get it tested.

Post by Peter Parry
"A conservative estimate, reached by HSL [Health and Safety
Laboratory] on the basis of the available data, is that the average
level of asbestos fibres in the air when removing textured coatings
using controlled removal is 0.08 f/ml. The evidence available suggests
that uncontrolled dry hand-scraping of chrysotile-containing textured
coatings is less than twice the conservative average used for the
controlled removal. This is below the current control limit of 0.3
f/ml for chrysotile and the proposed new limit of 0.1 f/ml for all
types of asbestos."

This seems to suggest that dry scraping, which is the wrong way to do it,
is still safe,

No it does not.

which must be good news.

No it is not.

Where did you get this information? is it online?
I'd be interested to read what they say about levels
when sanding! Also what they say about marley tiles.

You'd be mad to take any notice of that stupid claim even if you can find it
online.

There is no safe limit with asbestos and its stupid to risk it.

[harry]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Peter Parry
From 1976, the UK forms of Artex no longer used asbestos.

My house was built mid 70s. Its either 74 or 76; I can't remember which.
Let's hope it was '76.

You need to do more than hope with something as dangerous as asbestos.
Get it tested.

Post by Peter Parry
"A conservative estimate, reached by HSL [Health and Safety
Laboratory] on the basis of the available data, is that the average
level of asbestos fibres in the air when removing textured coatings
using controlled removal is 0.08 f/ml. The evidence available suggests
that uncontrolled dry hand-scraping of chrysotile-containing textured
coatings is less than twice the conservative average used for the
controlled removal. This is below the current control limit of 0.3
f/ml for chrysotile and the proposed new limit of 0.1 f/ml for all
types of asbestos."

This seems to suggest that dry scraping, which is the wrong way to do it,
is still safe,

No it does not.

which must be good news.

No it is not.

Where did you get this information? is it online?
I'd be interested to read what they say about levels
when sanding! Also what they say about marley tiles.

You'd be mad to take any notice of that stupid claim even if you can find it
online.
There is no safe limit with asbestos and its stupid to risk it.

A few years back some women got an asbestos related disease from
washing her husbands overalls.
Different governments take different views on ther hazard level.

[Rod Speed]

Post by harry

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Peter Parry
From 1976, the UK forms of Artex no longer used asbestos.

My house was built mid 70s. Its either 74 or 76; I can't remember which.
Let's hope it was '76.

You need to do more than hope with something as dangerous as asbestos.
Get it tested.

Post by Peter Parry
"A conservative estimate, reached by HSL [Health and Safety
Laboratory] on the basis of the available data, is that the average
level of asbestos fibres in the air when removing textured coatings
using controlled removal is 0.08 f/ml. The evidence available suggests
that uncontrolled dry hand-scraping of chrysotile-containing textured
coatings is less than twice the conservative average used for the
controlled removal. This is below the current control limit of 0.3
f/ml for chrysotile and the proposed new limit of 0.1 f/ml for all
types of asbestos."

This seems to suggest that dry scraping, which is the wrong way to do it,
is still safe,

No it does not.

which must be good news.

No it is not.

Where did you get this information? is it online?
I'd be interested to read what they say about levels
when sanding! Also what they say about marley tiles.

You'd be mad to take any notice of that stupid claim even if you can find it
online.
There is no safe limit with asbestos and its stupid to risk it.

A few years back some women got an asbestos related disease from
washing her husbands overalls.

And some kids here ended up with mesothelioma because the
tailings were used to make roads etc in the mine site here.

Post by harry
Different governments take different views on ther hazard level.

And those that have silly ideas about it end up looking criminal.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Peter Parry

Post by Fred
I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is
almost certainly just plaster and contains no asbestos.
Old Artex contained 3 to 5% of Chrysotile (white asbestos) and poses
little risk.

That last is just plain wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysotile#Safety_concerns

Post by Peter Parry
If you want to minimise the infinitesimal risk from artex
adhering to the plaster lumps get a mist sprayer (as used
for plants) and dampen the plaster before scraping it off.

[harry]

Post by Peter Parry

Post by Fred
I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is
almost certainly just plaster and contains no asbestos.
Old Artex contained 3 to 5% of Chrysotile (white asbestos) and poses
little risk.

That last is just plain wrong.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysotile#Safety_concerns

Post by Peter Parry
If you want to minimise the infinitesimal  risk from artex
adhering to the plaster lumps get a mist sprayer (as used
for plants) and dampen the plaster before scraping it off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

[Rod Speed]

Post by harry

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Peter Parry

Post by Fred
I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is
almost certainly just plaster and contains no asbestos.
Old Artex contained 3 to 5% of Chrysotile (white asbestos) and poses
little risk.

That last is just plain wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysotile#Safety_concerns

Post by Peter Parry
If you want to minimise the infinitesimal risk from artex
adhering to the plaster lumps get a mist sprayer (as used
for plants) and dampen the plaster before scraping it off.-

I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

Yeah, we have just had a famous NZ mountaineer, Lincoln Hall,
who has just died of mesothelioma. His only exposure to asbestos
was helping his dad to build a cubby for him as a kid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Hall_(climber)

[Rod Speed]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by harry

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Peter Parry

Post by Fred
I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is
almost certainly just plaster and contains no asbestos.
Old Artex contained 3 to 5% of Chrysotile (white asbestos) and poses
little risk.

That last is just plain wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysotile#Safety_concerns

Post by Peter Parry
If you want to minimise the infinitesimal risk from artex
adhering to the plaster lumps get a mist sprayer (as used
for plants) and dampen the plaster before scraping it off.-

I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

Yeah, we have just had a famous NZ mountaineer, Lincoln Hall,

That escaped before I could edit it, should have read

Post by Rod Speed
Yeah, we have just had a famous mountaineer, Lincoln Hall, who has just
died of mesothelioma. His only exposure to asbestos was helping his dad to
build a cubby for him as a kid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Hall_(climber)

[harry]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Peter Parry

Post by Fred
I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is
almost certainly just plaster and contains no asbestos.
Old Artex contained 3 to 5% of Chrysotile (white asbestos) and poses
little risk.

That last is just plain wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysotile#Safety_concerns

Post by Peter Parry
If you want to minimise the infinitesimal  risk from artex
adhering to the plaster lumps get a mist sprayer (as used
for plants) and dampen the plaster before scraping it off.-

I used to deal with asbestos removal.  All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous.  As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer.  So any level set is arbitary.

Yeah, we have just had a famous NZ mountaineer, Lincoln Hall,
who has just died of mesothelioma. His only exposure to asbestos
was helping his dad to build a cubby for him as a kid.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Hall_(climber)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Some people are very susceptible, others are not. Nobody knows why,
only that smoking makes you a lot more susceptible. So any set level
is arbitary.

[Rod Speed]

Post by harry

Post by Rod Speed

Post by harry

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Peter Parry

Post by Fred
I have removed some plaster coving from an artexed ceiling. The coving
seems to have been held on by something resembling plaster. I would
like to remove the odd lumps of this that have been left behind. I
don't know how old the ceiling is but if it is the original it will be
1970s and I understand artex then will have contained some asbestos.

If it was the stuff holding the coving in place it is
almost certainly just plaster and contains no asbestos.
Old Artex contained 3 to 5% of Chrysotile (white asbestos) and poses
little risk.

That last is just plain wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysotile#Safety_concerns

Post by Peter Parry
If you want to minimise the infinitesimal risk from artex
adhering to the plaster lumps get a mist sprayer (as used
for plants) and dampen the plaster before scraping it off.-

I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

Yeah, we have just had a famous mountaineer, Lincoln Hall,
who has just died of mesothelioma. His only exposure to asbestos
was helping his dad to build a cubby for him as a kid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Hall_(climber)

Some people are very susceptible, others are not.

True of all cancers.

Post by harry
Nobody knows why,

So the only viable approach is to play safe.

Post by harry
only that smoking makes you a lot more susceptible.

He clearly wasn't a smoker at the time.

Post by harry
So any set level is arbitary.

It's a complete wank, actually.

[Jo Stein]

Post by harry
I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

I think your theory is wrong and need som updating:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/site-kit/docs/CigarettesAsbestos2.pdf
Smoking is very, very dangerous, and if you do not smoke you should stop
worrying abour asbestos and radon.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Jo Stein

Post by harry
I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

We know yours is and does.

Post by Jo Stein
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/site-kit/docs/CigarettesAsbestos2.pdf

Doesn't say asbestos isnt a problem if you don't smoke.

Post by Jo Stein
Smoking is very, very dangerous,

Yes.

Post by Jo Stein
and if you do not smoke you should stop worrying abour asbestos and radon.

Fraid not. There you are just plain wrong.

[js.b1]

I used to deal with asbestos removal.  All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous.

It is not.

As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer.  So any level set is arbitary.

So can anything inhaled.

1 - Sub-micron
Anything sub-micron inhaled is never evacuated from the lungs by swept
volume, it becomes permanent. In this way completely innocuous
materials may become lodged and cause local immunological response. T-
cells attack perfectly healthy cells, releasing toxic chemicals
(common characteristic odour of bcc or scc) or causing damage to other
cells which are "cancer seeds" but do not yet replicate until some
future trigger.

2 - Dust
Dust is The Major Carrier for viruses in microscopic moisture droplets
on their surface. Such viruses invade cells and can cause cancer
directly or indirectly (cancer seeding) and only later become
malignant.

3 - Particulates
Particulates are carriers for carcinogens such as once-lead, Benzene,
MTBE etc. Whilst the particles may be swept back out of the lung,
their carried contaminants are often absorbed into mucous linings.
Here they cause cellular damage and if toxic cancer seeding. Some
chemicals cause cancer directly, an example would be airborne arsenic.

Like radioactivity the body is likely to handle all of this - until a
certain threshold is exceeded, which may like radioactivity be non-
linear. Additionally some people may be pre-disposed to certain cancer
types by their immune system or generic makeup.

So, anything inhaled can cause lung cancer, anything that is retained
is more likely to.
- An innocuous MDF particle causing it via immune system response.
- A toxic Iroko wood particle causing it via local toxicity.


Asbestos actually comprises two distinct mineral types.

Chrysotile
- White asbestos, is actually a form of serpentine
- Short fibes, used in asbestos-cement products
- Dissolves readily in lung tissue (2-12 months)
- Treat as with any other inhaled dust (all dust is harmful, be it
household, diesel particulates, MDF or hardwood such as Iroko cutting)

Crocidolite
- blue/brown asbestos from amphibole group of minerals with completely
different crystal structures and chemical properties.
- Very long fibres, used in lagging, bulk insulation & fabric
- Does not dissolve in lungs, permanent, causes mesothelioma

The problem is we can not go for a sterile world, because immune
systems actually require "dosing" in order to maintain their primed
effectiveness. We can however wear a face mask etc to prevent exposure
to dust of risk.

If asbestos is suspected...
- Identify - Insurers prefer independent testing, Chrysotile is
however often labelled on the sheeting
- Removal if necessary - Insurers work to H&S guidelines, as well as
their own expert advice.
- Prosecution of fake claims - Contractors have been known to
"woodwork from pocket" and submit £27,000 claims for asbestos not
present, classic being integral garage with asbestos sheet roofing
(often it is other fire board or is chrysotile).

DIY removal if Chrysotile
It is perfectly legal and appropriate to remove Chrysotile subject to
competency.
1 - it is correctly identified as such.
2 - appropriate mask, bunny-suit, wetting &/or latex paint is applied
to its surface.
3 - CORRECT means of removal are employed, which means bolt croppers
to cut fasteners (not angle grinder), and absolutely avoid shattering
or breaking of sheets (people used to be too blaze over this).
4 - it is disposed of *as specified* by the disposal site (typically
you must take 1 piece to a certain site on a certain day of the week,
everything must be taped and double bagged).
5 - it must not be tipped into domestic waste disposal (due to recycle
processing of domestic waste).

Tommy Walsh dismantled a chrysotile garage on TV.
This was one of the most difficult ones, because it was wood frame
which requires difficult cutting. The more common L-angle steel framed
garages use J-bolts to hold roof sheets on, and conventional fasteners
for the siding. The J-bolts are cut with any Ebay bolt cropper, the
side fasteners are best cut with an angle grinder gently abrading the
fastener from the steel L-angle side (and not the outer chrysotile
side). Before doing so it is essential to at least wet the structure,
and before that ideally gloss or masonry paint any existing cracks or
breakages (which should be basic maintenance anyway). Grinding disc
dust can be a strong irritant and if inhaled as far as the lungs is
just like any other particulate.

Many problems only occur from accumulation.
Classic being working with cement or epoxy without problem, only for a
sudden dermatological blowup.
So always wear a highly rated mask when working even if DIY and
particularly in a trade.

His only exposure to asbestos was helping his dad to build a cubby for
him as a kid.
No, he was walking in it, probably climbing it, and may have been
exposed to it industrially where he lived and have a genetic
predisposition to mesothelioma. Of course his dad may have sawn,
drilled & hammered the stuff - leaving dust around the place for
months on end since it does not magically decompose.
Contrast with miners and consider my point about any sub-micron
particle is "in the lungs, in the lungs for life".

The EPA did stacks of research on this, quickly shunted across to NASA
and made restricted for reasons of national security around the Cat
Convertor EPA work. The reason is every car maker, petrol station,
industrial process could not operate. One reason they wanted
particulate scrubbers, diesel soot particles are worse because they
are an idea vehicle for carcinogenic carriage as well as their small
size.

So, wear the masks whenever working in fine dust - never mind
"asbestos".

[harry]

Post by js.b1

I used to deal with asbestos removal.  All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous.

It is not.

As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer.  So any level set is arbitary.

So can anything inhaled.
1 - Sub-micron
Anything sub-micron inhaled is never evacuated from the lungs by swept
volume, it becomes permanent. In this way completely innocuous
materials may become lodged and cause local immunological response. T-
cells attack perfectly healthy cells, releasing toxic chemicals
(common characteristic odour of bcc or scc) or causing damage to other
cells which are "cancer seeds" but do not yet replicate until some
future trigger.
2 - Dust
Dust is The Major Carrier for viruses in microscopic moisture droplets
on their surface. Such viruses invade cells and can cause cancer
directly or indirectly (cancer seeding) and only later become
malignant.
3 - Particulates
Particulates are carriers for carcinogens such as once-lead, Benzene,
MTBE etc. Whilst the particles may be swept back out of the lung,
their carried contaminants are often absorbed into mucous linings.
Here they cause cellular damage and if toxic cancer seeding. Some
chemicals cause cancer directly, an example would be airborne arsenic.
Like radioactivity the body is likely to handle all of this - until a
certain threshold is exceeded, which may like radioactivity be non-
linear. Additionally some people may be pre-disposed to certain cancer
types by their immune system or generic makeup.
So, anything inhaled can cause lung cancer, anything that is retained
is more likely to.
- An innocuous MDF particle causing it via immune system response.
- A toxic Iroko wood particle causing it via local toxicity.
Asbestos actually comprises two distinct mineral types.
Chrysotile
- White asbestos, is actually a form of serpentine
- Short fibes, used in asbestos-cement products
- Dissolves readily in lung tissue (2-12 months)
- Treat as with any other inhaled dust (all dust is harmful, be it
household, diesel particulates, MDF or hardwood such as Iroko cutting)
Crocidolite
- blue/brown asbestos from amphibole group of minerals with completely
different crystal structures and chemical properties.
- Very long fibres, used in lagging, bulk insulation & fabric
- Does not dissolve in lungs, permanent, causes mesothelioma
The problem is we can not go for a sterile world, because immune
systems actually require "dosing" in order to maintain their primed
effectiveness. We can however wear a face mask etc to prevent exposure
to dust of risk.
If asbestos is suspected...
- Identify - Insurers prefer independent testing, Chrysotile is
however often labelled on the sheeting
- Removal if necessary - Insurers work to H&S guidelines, as well as
their own expert advice.
- Prosecution of fake claims - Contractors have been known to
"woodwork from pocket" and submit £27,000 claims for asbestos not
present, classic being integral garage with asbestos sheet roofing
(often it is other fire board or is chrysotile).
DIY removal if Chrysotile
It is perfectly legal and appropriate to remove Chrysotile subject to
competency.
1 - it is correctly identified as such.
2 - appropriate mask, bunny-suit, wetting &/or latex paint is applied
to its surface.
3 - CORRECT means of removal are employed, which means bolt croppers
to cut fasteners (not angle grinder), and absolutely avoid shattering
or breaking of sheets (people used to be too blaze over this).
4 - it is disposed of *as specified* by the disposal site (typically
you must take 1 piece to a certain site on a certain day of the week,
everything must be taped and double bagged).
5 - it must not be tipped into domestic waste disposal (due to recycle
processing of domestic waste).
Tommy Walsh dismantled a chrysotile garage on TV.
This was one of the most difficult ones, because it was wood frame
which requires difficult cutting. The more common L-angle steel framed
garages use J-bolts to hold roof sheets on, and conventional fasteners
for the siding. The J-bolts are cut with any Ebay bolt cropper, the
side fasteners are best cut with an angle grinder gently abrading the
fastener from the  steel L-angle side (and not the outer chrysotile
side). Before doing so it is essential to at least wet the structure,
and before that ideally gloss or masonry paint any existing cracks or
breakages (which should be basic maintenance anyway). Grinding disc
dust can be a strong irritant and if inhaled as far as the lungs is
just like any other particulate.
Many problems only occur from accumulation.
Classic being working with cement or epoxy without problem, only for a
sudden dermatological blowup.
So always wear a highly rated mask when working even if DIY and
particularly in a trade.
His only exposure to asbestos was helping his dad to build a cubby for
him as a kid.
No, he was walking in it, probably climbing it, and may have been
exposed to it industrially where he lived and have a genetic
predisposition to mesothelioma. Of course his dad may have sawn,
drilled & hammered the stuff - leaving dust around the place for
months on end since it does not magically decompose.
Contrast with miners and consider my point about any sub-micron
particle is "in the lungs, in the lungs for life".
The EPA did stacks of research on this, quickly shunted across to NASA
and made restricted for reasons of national security around the Cat
Convertor EPA work. The reason is every car maker, petrol station,
industrial process could not operate. One reason they wanted
particulate scrubbers, diesel soot particles are worse because they
are an idea vehicle for carcinogenic carriage as well as their small
size.
So, wear the masks whenever working in fine dust - never mind
"asbestos".

Three sorts of asbesto sctually +Amosite
Asbestos is considereded especially dangerous because ofit's fibre
lenght/diameter ratio.
I often wonder about all this mineral wool peopleare stuffing in their
lofts.
You need to be careful spouting regulations. There are people here
from all over the world where these things are viewed differently.

[js.b1]

Post by harry
I often wonder about all this mineral wool peopleare stuffing in their
lofts.

I am not too keen on it.
- It is a respiratory allergen.
- It can hold moisture within its "matrix" and so mildew, spores etc.

Installers vary in H&S.
- One wore gloves, bunny suit & respirator.
- Another wore absolutely nothing.

Historically when working with anything in industry that might bite,
better to assume it will and use whatever protection is provided or
provide your own (better) if necessary. Common mineral oils, tar, even
some older dermatological dressings are now considered carcinogenic.


We already have a problem of increasing cases of asthma.
That is particularly a problem re future Flu / SARS outbreaks because
they will soak up higher dependency beds.

We already have a problem of growing skin cancers, not just BCC SCC
but also Melanoma. Handling things may need extra care because of the
accumulative damage or "seeding". We know burns can decades later
suddenly turn malignant from a seemingly healed even scar less
appearance. We are yet to see what the 1980+ industrial materials will
yield.

Indo-China may turn out to be the area where we exported all the
previous health problems, and created a whole lot more.

[Peter Parry]

Post by js.b1
Installers vary in H&S.
- One wore gloves, bunny suit & respirator.
- Another wore absolutely nothing.

I suppose the latter made it much easier for him to be hosed down
afterwards, but may have frightened the horses.

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by Peter Parry

Post by js.b1
- One wore gloves, bunny suit & respirator.
- Another wore absolutely nothing.

I suppose the latter made it much easier for him to be hosed down
afterwards, but may have frightened the horses.

The thought of glass fibre insulation in intimate contact with ones
important little places doesn't bear thinking about.

[js.b1]

On Apr 19, 10:45 pm, "Dave Liquorice"

Post by Dave Liquorice
The thought of glass fibre insulation in intimate contact with ones
important little places doesn't bear thinking about.

Plastic covered glass fibre immersion tank insulation, slightly torn.

Pair of underpants left there a while... the strange facial expression.

[js.b1]

Post by Peter Parry

Post by js.b1
Installers vary in H&S.
- One wore gloves, bunny suit & respirator.
- Another wore absolutely nothing.

I suppose the latter made it much easier for him to be hosed down
afterwards, but may have frightened the horses.

The spurs attached to his feet were not fused either...
I have a suspicion they did it to get through more houses a day...
making the repeated exposure even dafter. Rolls were pre-opened and
dragged through the house, had a throat like a thistle had been pulled
up and down it a few times.

[Peter Parry]

Post by harry
I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

"Is it true that exposure to just one asbestos fibre kills?

Asbestos fibres are present everywhere in the air at very low levels.
This means that everyone is breathing in a very low level of fibres
all the time.

The small burden of fibres resulting from this background exposure
appears to be well tolerated, so the theory that one asbestos fibre
kills would appear to be unfounded."

http://liverpool.gov.uk/pests-pollution-and-food-hygiene/pollution/asbestos/

exactly the same wording appears on other environmental health web
sites.

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by harry
I used to deal with asbestos removal. All the different sorts were
considered equally hazardous. As it's a carcinogen, in theory a
single fibre can give you lung cancer. So any level set is arbitary.

Hysterical bollocks.