Solar panels and payback

[Jeff Layman]

This made some local news here yesterday:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>

During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.

I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

[alan_m]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

Possibly it depends on how the cost of the installation was calculated.
Possibly it included the energy company selling carbon credits :)

"The stadium sponsor, Utilita Energy, funded the project"

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by alan_m

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it
would be around twice that time.
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

Possibly it depends on how the cost of the installation was calculated.
Possibly it included the energy company selling carbon credits :)
"The stadium sponsor, Utilita Energy, funded the project"

Any information regarding 'renewable energy' is 99% guaranteed to be a lie.
Only subsidies make the thing profitable.
And I wouldn't bank on them being around that much longer.
Despite Red Ed Microbrain.

[The Other John]

Post by Jeff Layman
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My panels were installed in 2011 and the break even point was forecast to
be 7 years and it was exactly right. My F.I.T. income is higher than my
dual fuel outgoings.

[alan_m]

Post by The Other John

Post by Jeff Layman
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My panels were installed in 2011 and the break even point was forecast to
be 7 years and it was exactly right. My F.I.T. income is higher than my
dual fuel outgoings.

The FIT payment scheme you are on is probably a lot more generous than
available to anyone installing solar today.

Money Saving Expert web page suggests for a £7k installation cost the
savings may be around £300 per annum.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/

This is for a small scale domestic installation and not for the
commercial installation this thread is about.

[RJH]

Post by alan_m

Post by The Other John

Post by Jeff Layman
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My panels were installed in 2011 and the break even point was forecast to
be 7 years and it was exactly right. My F.I.T. income is higher than my
dual fuel outgoings.

The FIT payment scheme you are on is probably a lot more generous than
available to anyone installing solar today.
Money Saving Expert web page suggests for a £7k installation cost the
savings may be around £300 per annum.

If I cant increase the value of £7k bu at least £700 a year I have
bought the wrong financial instrument.

Plus, you'd need to discount the cash flow. So more than £700 in that example.

What does it cost to wash the birdshot off them?

Maintenance is another issue. As is a sinking fund to replace the inverter and
batteries, probably within 10 years.

All of this should have been factored in to a quote - which I think is pretty
routine.

In my case, 8 reasonably oriented panels and a 5kWh battery was about £7k,
with a predicted payback of about 10 years. After 6 months, the prediction
looks to be reasonably accurate. Time will tell.

Post by alan_m
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/
This is for a small scale domestic installation and not for the
commercial installation this thread is about.

Since solar produces when all the other panels in the country are
producing it's pretty much worthless without subsidy.
It is questionable how much longer politicians will be able to justify
such an arrant waste of public money

Apart from no VAT, I didn't use any public money.

Another variable that I don't expect everyone else to share is the CO2 saved,
although I haven't calculated the net saving - if any. Plus I get a good
feeling from generating my own electricity, and not stuffing the pockets of
the energy companies. TBH I didn't pay very much attention to the payback when
I had them installed.

Your mileage undoubtedly varies.

[ajh]

Post by RJH
Maintenance is another issue. As is a sinking fund to replace the inverter and
batteries, probably within 10 years.

My inverter and panels show no loss in performance after 12 years so far.

Post by RJH
In my case, 8 reasonably oriented panels and a 5kWh battery was about £7k,
with a predicted payback of about 10 years. After 6 months, the prediction
looks to be reasonably accurate. Time will tell.

It is getting interesting; if I just consider the PV panels and
inverter we fitted 18 months ago to a house with a much better aspect
than mine it came to £7k, at current Octopus rates if the generation
were exported the return on the 5MWh/annum generated would be £750,
that's 10.71%, of course you never get to draw your capital out but what
the hell, I would never have spent the money.

In fact with an additional £4k for 10kWh battery and £1k for EV charger
it is looking better, the arbitrage on buying electricity to charge car
and battery and selling during the day looks like it is running the car
and house for free and covering standing charges for gas and
electricity. How long these rates will last is a bit of a guess and what
amortisation per kWh for storing in the battery is debatable but I'm
unlikely to outlive the battery.

Post by RJH
Apart from no VAT, I didn't use any public money.

That's right

Post by RJH
Another variable that I don't expect everyone else to share is the CO2 saved,
although I haven't calculated the net saving - if any. Plus I get a good
feeling from generating my own electricity, and not stuffing the pockets of
the energy companies. TBH I didn't pay very much attention to the payback when
I had them installed.

My way of thinking too so I have been pleasantly surprised with both
installations

[alan_m]

Post by alan_m
Money Saving Expert web page suggests for a £7k installation cost the
savings may be around £300 per annum.

If I cant increase the value of £7k bu at least £700 a year I have
bought the wrong financial instrument.
What does it cost to wash the birdshot off them?

Post by alan_m
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/

Money Saving Expert does suggest not borrowing the £7k for installation
as the interest on the loan will wipe out the potential savings for many
years and make the payback much longer than ten to fifteen years.

Since solar produces when all the other panels in the country are
producing it's pretty much worthless without subsidy.
It is questionable how much longer politicians will be able to justify
such an arrant waste of public money

Soon with all this increase in other renewable energy payments for
feeding in from solar will be almost zero, except during a cold winter's
night :)

[AnthonyL]

On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 15:57:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by alan_m

Post by The Other John

Post by Jeff Layman
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My panels were installed in 2011 and the break even point was forecast to
be 7 years and it was exactly right.  My F.I.T. income is higher than my
dual fuel outgoings.

The FIT payment scheme you are on is probably a lot more generous than
available to anyone installing solar today.
Money Saving Expert web page suggests for a £7k installation cost the
savings may be around £300 per annum.

If I cant increase the value of £7k bu at least £700 a year I have
bought the wrong financial instrument.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments I really would like to know where
you have found a guaranteed 10% minimum return on capital.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by AnthonyL
On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 15:57:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by alan_m

Post by The Other John

Post by Jeff Layman
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My panels were installed in 2011 and the break even point was forecast to
be 7 years and it was exactly right.  My F.I.T. income is higher than my
dual fuel outgoings.

The FIT payment scheme you are on is probably a lot more generous than
available to anyone installing solar today.
Money Saving Expert web page suggests for a £7k installation cost the
savings may be around £300 per annum.

If I cant increase the value of £7k bu at least £700 a year I have
bought the wrong financial instrument.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments I really would like to know where
you have found a guaranteed 10% minimum return on capital.

Its very simple. Every six months or so I review a set of tradeable
funds I have investment in, and if they are doing less thabn 10% , I
sell them. I then look for any exchange tradeable funds that have
delivered more than 30% annually over the last three years and buy them..

The point is neither I, nor the fund managers I effectively employ, keep
their money in one place.

And some of them buy options and get even better returns in a rising market.

Its a lot less work than 'working' or installing solar panels

I probably make about £20,000 a year for about 4 hours work every 6 months

But you cant just leave the money there. Sectors go out of fashion. Tech
funds made a lot during Covid. Now energy funds are doing well.

And there exists another possibility.
Buy gold.

That's gone up 900% in the last 20 years. Dunno what the compound
equivalent rate is with that. Probably exactly the same as
inflation...they say a loaf of bread costs the same in gold as it did in
roman times...

If you stick your money in a deposit account, then the bank gambles at
the financial casino with it.

And inflation eats into it.

I'd rather trust a fund manager with a proven track record on 1%
commission to do that.

One that I can fire online in ten seconds

[Andrew]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by AnthonyL
On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 15:57:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by alan_m

Post by The Other John

Post by Jeff Layman
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My panels were installed in 2011 and the break even point was forecast to
be 7 years and it was exactly right.  My F.I.T. income is higher than my
dual fuel outgoings.

The FIT payment scheme you are on is probably a lot more generous than
available to anyone installing solar today.
Money Saving Expert web page suggests for a £7k installation cost the
savings may be around £300 per annum.

If I cant increase the value of £7k bu at least £700 a year I have
bought the wrong financial instrument.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments I really would like to know where
you have found a guaranteed 10% minimum return on capital.

Its very simple. Every six months or so I review a set of tradeable
funds I have investment in, and if they are doing less thabn 10% , I
sell them. I then look for any exchange tradeable funds  that have
delivered more than 30% annually over the last three years and buy them..
The point is neither I, nor the fund managers I effectively employ, keep
their money in one place.
And some of them buy options and get even better returns in a rising market.
Its a lot less work than 'working' or installing solar panels
I probably make about £20,000 a year for about 4 hours work every 6 months
But you cant just leave the money there. Sectors go out of fashion. Tech
funds made a lot during Covid. Now energy funds are doing well.

And crashed badly in 2022, and again in August 2024.

Scottish Mortgage lost more than half its Nov 2021 value by May 2022.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
And there exists another possibility.
Buy gold.

Just about the worst thing you can do. Zero interest and storage
charges on top. Better to buy Black Rock funds.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
That's gone up 900%  in the last 20 years. Dunno what the compound
equivalent rate is with that. Probably exactly the same as
inflation...they say a loaf of bread costs the same in gold as it did in
roman times...

Only because Gordon Brown signalled his intention to sell the UK gold
stocks back in about 2002, whereupon all the fast movers like JP Morgan
short-sold gold and forced its price down to a historic low point and
then bought our gold at massive discount.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
If you stick your money in a deposit account, then the bank gambles at
the financial casino with it.

Any one who used Lettuce Monday to buy gilts will have locked in a 5%+
yield, and if held to redemption, would make a nice tax-free capital
gain too.

4% is still available, but the capital gains are much less than what
was available in October 2022 and July 2023.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
And inflation eats into it.
I'd rather trust a fund manager with a proven track record on 1%
commission to do that.
One that I can fire online in ten seconds

Your money may have underperformed for a while before you make
that decision.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by alan_m

Post by The Other John

Post by Jeff Layman
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My panels were installed in 2011 and the break even point was forecast to
be 7 years and it was exactly right.  My F.I.T. income is higher than my
dual fuel outgoings.

The FIT payment scheme you are on is probably a lot more generous than
available to anyone installing solar today.
Money Saving Expert web page suggests for a £7k installation cost the
savings may be around £300 per annum.

If I cant increase the value of £7k bu at least £700 a year I have
bought the wrong financial instrument.
What does it cost to wash the birdshot off them?

Post by alan_m
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/
This is for a small scale domestic installation and not for the
commercial installation this thread is about.

Since solar produces when all the other panels in the country are
producing it's pretty much worthless without subsidy.

It is questionable how much longer politicians will be able to justify
such an arrant waste of public money

[RJH]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.

Panels are very very cheap now. <£100 for a 500W panel, which would give> you
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/longi-solar/himo6-hth-530
https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?c=52.197585,0.139154,11&s=52.205016,0.129888&m=site&pv=small,180,38,1
On a domestic price cap tariff that would pay back in about 9 months, and
possibly less time on an uncapped business tariff.
What costs is the installation: inverter, fixings, access, labour.
Those are wildly different depending on your site - an industrial building
with a huge roof, existing roof access and simple fixings could be much
cheaper to install compared with a domestic property with only space for a
few panels, awkward tile mountings and a need for scaffolding.

Roof fixings on my slate pitched roof cost a fair chunk of my overall
installation - I'd guess about 15% of the £7000.

Something like that building with a lot of roof area sounds like a perfect
spot for cheap solar, and they have a giant building that's likely going to
consume the energy at any time of day, so it's straight money off their
bill.
No brainer.
Theo

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

[Theo]

Post by RJH

No brainer.

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

1) Should not be subsidised. All that subsidies do is hide the cost. Doesn't
make something cheaper in terms of the amount of society's resources used.

There are no solar subsidies available. This is purely a business decision.

https://www.fmb.org.uk/homepicks/solar-panels/solar-panel-grants/
make s you a lying piece ofgshit

Please indicate which of those schemes applies to the owners of a giant
stadium.

Anyhow, those are grants not subsidies. Subsidy pays you an ongoing return
as you do whatever thing you are being encouraged to do - generate solar
electricity in this case. The grants, as I stated in the paragraph you
snipped, give a one-off contribution towards the upfront cost - generally in
very limited circumstances (eg a homeowner on benefits).

I don't think you'll find any stadium claiming benefits, and the domestic
Feed In Tariff (a per-unit subsidy) has been dead for 5 years.

Theo

[Andrew]

Post by Theo

Post by RJH

No brainer.

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

1) Should not be subsidised. All that subsidies do is hide the cost. Doesn't
make something cheaper in terms of the amount of society's resources used.

There are no solar subsidies available. This is purely a business decision.

https://www.fmb.org.uk/homepicks/solar-panels/solar-panel-grants/
make s you a lying piece ofgshit

Please indicate which of those schemes applies to the owners of a giant
stadium.
Anyhow, those are grants not subsidies. Subsidy pays you an ongoing return
as you do whatever thing you are being encouraged to do - generate solar
electricity in this case. The grants, as I stated in the paragraph you
snipped, give a one-off contribution towards the upfront cost - generally in
very limited circumstances (eg a homeowner on benefits).
I don't think you'll find any stadium claiming benefits, and the domestic
Feed In Tariff (a per-unit subsidy) has been dead for 5 years.
Theo

Buy those FITs last 25 years and the earlier ones are RPI linked !.
This should never have been done, when most other things have shifted
to CPI linking.

[Theo]

Post by RJH

No brainer.

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

1) Should not be subsidised. All that subsidies do is hide the cost. Doesn't
make something cheaper in terms of the amount of society's resources used.

There are no solar subsidies available. This is purely a business decision.

Homeowners on low incomes may get some grants for better
heating/insulation/etc which in limited cases may include solar - that's not
a subsidy as such, it's just paying for improvements the householder
couldn't otherwise afford, like a new boiler.

2) FIT should be capped at what the customer pays per unit. Shouldn't be
making a profit at other customers' expense.

Current export tariffs pay less than the import tariffs.

The FIT hasn't been open for new installations since 2019. Folks who signed
up on a prior tariff get the terms they signed up for - that's how
investment works. They bought panels when they were much more expensive and
that's why the FIT subsidy was available - to make the payback time
reasonable.

ie all this antagonism is based on out of date arguments from the situation
a decade or more ago. The proponents don't seem to have noticed the world
has moved on.

We may well get a plug-in when it comes time to replace the car, and will then
look at getting some panels here to charge it up. I'm just hoping WW3 holds
off for long enough for that to be an astute investment.

The longer you wait the cheaper the panels become, although labour cost
inflation may wipe out the saving. That's a point in favour of DIY :-)

I'd really like the price of microinverters to come down, because that would
make for an easy DIY install. Unfortunately Enphase dominate the market and
prices seem static. There are a few new brands coming on the market which
look interesting, but they may not have G.98 approval for the UK:
https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/microinverter-comparison

Theo

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by RJH

No brainer.

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

1) Should not be subsidised. All that subsidies do is hide the cost. Doesn't
make something cheaper in terms of the amount of society's resources used.

There are no solar subsidies available. This is purely a business decision.

https://www.fmb.org.uk/homepicks/solar-panels/solar-panel-grants/

make s you a lying piece ofgshit

[alan_m]

Post by RJH
Roof fixings on my slate pitched roof cost a fair chunk of my overall
installation - I'd guess about 15% of the £7000.

Possibly another 6 to 7% on health and safety - the scaffolding required
to work at heights.


I note new regulation coming soon about the installation of associated
batteries. They will no longer be allowed in lofts and if internal to a
house the requrement to arrest the spread of fire.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by RJH

No brainer.
Theo

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

Because *I* have to pay for your virtue signalling and grifting.

Anyone with solar panels on their roof is a thieving grifter and a total
cunt, since its my money that pays them to keep them there.

[RJH]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by RJH

No brainer.
Theo

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

Because *I* have to pay for your virtue signalling and grifting.

Who exactly have I swindled? Or virtue signalled?

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Anyone with solar panels on their roof is a thieving grifter and a total
cunt, since its my money that pays them to keep them there.

I genuinely don't understand. How does my installation, or any self-financed
system, disadvantage you?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by RJH
I genuinely don't understand. How does my installation, or any self-financed
system, disadvantage you?

The mere existence of intermittent flows on the grid increases system
costs for *everyone*

Your solar panels force some gas station to operate inefficiently
because when you are generating, overall demand diminishes, and at
sunset demand leaps up more than it otherwise would, so the gas station
has to be fired up from cold, incerasing emissions and costs.
Your solar panels force grid infrastructure to be built to deliver it
when you are not generating.
So the power companies are delivering less chargeable units for the same
grid overheads.

So electricity prices have to increase. For everyone *else*.

[RJH]

Post by RJH

No brainer.

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

1) Should not be subsidised. All that subsidies do is hide the cost. Doesn't
make something cheaper in terms of the amount of society's resources used.

What subsidies? The ones available to low income households? My (Limited)
understanding of such subsidies is that there's very low take-up, and it's for
'light' solar only - no battery for example.

And do you see no benefit for such households - only costs?

2) FIT should be capped at what the customer pays per unit. Shouldn't be
making a profit at other customers' expense.

I agree broadly with the principle of profit. Are there many of those original
highly advantageous FIT recipients about?

We may well get a plug-in when it comes time to replace the car, and will then
look at getting some panels here to charge it up. I'm just hoping WW3 holds
off for long enough for that to be an astute investment.

Ah. So you're antagonistic because it doesn't suit you. Yet. Got it.

[Tim Streater]

Post by RJH

Post by RJH

No brainer.

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

1) Should not be subsidised. All that subsidies do is hide the cost. Doesn't
make something cheaper in terms of the amount of society's resources used.

What subsidies? The ones available to low income households? My (Limited)
understanding of such subsidies is that there's very low take-up, and it's for
'light' solar only - no battery for example.
And do you see no benefit for such households - only costs?

2) FIT should be capped at what the customer pays per unit. Shouldn't be
making a profit at other customers' expense.

I agree broadly with the principle of profit. Are there many of those original
highly advantageous FIT recipients about?

We may well get a plug-in when it comes time to replace the car, and will then
look at getting some panels here to charge it up. I'm just hoping WW3 holds
off for long enough for that to be an astute investment.

Ah. So you're antagonistic because it doesn't suit you. Yet. Got it.

<raspberry>

I'm antagonistic for the reasons given, which may well no longer apply.
However, what we see in the media and also from MilliBean is that all his new
solar investments will solve our energy production problems and "power
thousands of households". Statements of this nature tend to mislead people.

We're on the end of a rural 11kV, so a small system here, with battery, ought
to be able to cover the short outages we get here, too.

[alan_m]

Post by RJH
What subsidies? The ones available to low income households? My (Limited)
understanding of such subsidies is that there's very low take-up, and it's for
'light' solar only - no battery for example.

In the past solar has been taken up by those who can afford the initial
outlay (with the subsidised discount) and have benefitted from generous
FIT payments.

As there is no magic money tree it seems to come as a suprise to some
that the money for all these subsidies came from the (mainly)
undisclosed green tax on all our utility bills.

Solar hasn't helped low income households but the exact opposite. The
well off have had the disposable cash to invest in solar, albeit made
cheaper with subsidies, and the poor (and the rest of us) have had to
pay for it with higher utility bills.

The same appears to be happening with heat pumps for domestic central
heating. However, in my opinion, there is also a problem with the
mis-selling or mis-advertising of ASHP when the changes to the rest of
the heating system are ignored. A lot of fly by night companies selling
ASHP suggest a ASHP is just a simple swap out for a gas/oil/LPG boiler.
They are more interested in getting their hands on the grants rather
than doing decent job.

[Tim Streater]

Post by alan_m

Post by RJH
What subsidies? The ones available to low income households? My (Limited)
understanding of such subsidies is that there's very low take-up, and it's for
'light' solar only - no battery for example.

In the past solar has been taken up by those who can afford the initial
outlay (with the subsidised discount) and have benefitted from generous
FIT payments.
As there is no magic money tree it seems to come as a suprise to some
that the money for all these subsidies came from the (mainly)
undisclosed green tax on all our utility bills.
Solar hasn't helped low income households but the exact opposite. The
well off have had the disposable cash to invest in solar, albeit made
cheaper with subsidies, and the poor (and the rest of us) have had to
pay for it with higher utility bills.

Precisely the points I was trying to make.

[Tim Streater]

Post by RJH

No brainer.

Quite. I'm having difficulty understanding the antagonism towards it all.

1) Should not be subsidised. All that subsidies do is hide the cost. Doesn't
make something cheaper in terms of the amount of society's resources used.

2) FIT should be capped at what the customer pays per unit. Shouldn't be
making a profit at other customers' expense.

We may well get a plug-in when it comes time to replace the car, and will then
look at getting some panels here to charge it up. I'm just hoping WW3 holds
off for long enough for that to be an astute investment.

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.

Panels are very very cheap now. <£100 for a 500W panel, which would give
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/longi-solar/himo6-hth-530
https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?c=52.197585,0.139154,11&s=52.205016,0.129888&m=site&pv=small,180,38,1
On a domestic price cap tariff that would pay back in about 9 months, and
possibly less time on an uncapped business tariff.

Even the (domestic housing) solar panel installation companies hyping up
the payback period are quoting at least 8 years.

That's because the cost of panels is trivial compared with the scaffolding
to get on the roof. Let's say you're having a 4kWp setup - that's £800 for
the panels, but it'll be ~£1k for the scaffolding alone. Meanwhile this
stadium is fitting 1000 panels (cost ~£100k) and probably doesn't need any
scaffolding because there's already roof stairs.

Also it's probably a steel roof so maybe you can use simple screw on clamps
and an existing electrical riser, while a domestic tile roof needs tiles
removing and cutting, brackets fitting, rails installing, wires running, all
for a poxy 8 panels.

I'm not sure what kind of inverter they'll use on a 500kWp setup, but it
probably costs proportionately less than 125 domestic inverters.

On a domestic installation the positioning of the fixed panels is not
optimal on the majority of houses. Most households will not use all of
the output during the long days in the summer, even with additional
batteries, and will not achieve a feed in anywhere near the domestic
price cap tariff.

Domestic can be marginal unless you have some of:
a) cheap roof access
b) cheap fixings
c) a good use for the electricity (either regular daytime loads or an EV)

If you can achieve those you can get good payback times, but the solar
cowboys are not cutting those costs (all more profit for them).

Theo

[alan_m]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

One of the Utilita Energy commercial business models is to fund the
installation up front and provide the maintenance costs for the first 5
years. These costs form a loan which must be paid back over a 5 year
period. The company paying back this loan "owns" the generated
electricity. Any electricity that is not locally used is exported at a
fixed price set by Utilita Energy. As one of the Utilita Energy web
pages indicates - there will only be savings in the first 5 years if the
value of the electricity used and the value of the export is greater
than the repayments on the loan (and presumably the interest on that loan).

Their other business model is to fund all installation and ongoing
maintenance but they "own" all the electricity generated for 30 years.
This electricity is sold back at a undisclosed discount to the company
where the panels are located.

I assume that if a return on the investment is going to be AFTER (not
during) 5 years they have entered a contract for the former scheme.
Extrapolating from scant case study figures Utilita Energy have
published for a smaller installation the yearly loan repayments may be
close to £250k/annum

[RJH]

Post by alan_m

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

One of the Utilita Energy commercial business models is to fund the
installation up front and provide the maintenance costs for the first 5
years. These costs form a loan which must be paid back over a 5 year
period. The company paying back this loan "owns" the generated
electricity. Any electricity that is not locally used is exported at a
fixed price set by Utilita Energy. As one of the Utilita Energy web
pages indicates - there will only be savings in the first 5 years if the
value of the electricity used and the value of the export is greater
than the repayments on the loan (and presumably the interest on that loan).
Their other business model is to fund all installation and ongoing
maintenance but they "own" all the electricity generated for 30 years.
This electricity is sold back at a undisclosed discount to the company
where the panels are located.
I assume that if a return on the investment is going to be AFTER (not
during) 5 years they have entered a contract for the former scheme.
Extrapolating from scant case study figures Utilita Energy have
published for a smaller installation the yearly loan repayments may be
close to £250k/annum

I've read a couple of nightmare anecdotes where comapanies like this make a
real hash of the roof - simply drilling through tiles or smashing them to fix
the brackets.

[Theo]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.

Panels are very very cheap now. <£100 for a 500W panel, which would give
you back about 500kWh pa with optimal positioning:
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/longi-solar/himo6-hth-530
https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?c=52.197585,0.139154,11&s=52.205016,0.129888&m=site&pv=small,180,38,1

On a domestic price cap tariff that would pay back in about 9 months, and
possibly less time on an uncapped business tariff.

What costs is the installation: inverter, fixings, access, labour.
Those are wildly different depending on your site - an industrial building
with a huge roof, existing roof access and simple fixings could be much
cheaper to install compared with a domestic property with only space for a
few panels, awkward tile mountings and a need for scaffolding.

Something like that building with a lot of roof area sounds like a perfect
spot for cheap solar, and they have a giant building that's likely going to
consume the energy at any time of day, so it's straight money off their
bill.

No brainer.

Theo

[alan_m]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.

Panels are very very cheap now. <£100 for a 500W panel, which would give
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/longi-solar/himo6-hth-530
https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?c=52.197585,0.139154,11&s=52.205016,0.129888&m=site&pv=small,180,38,1
On a domestic price cap tariff that would pay back in about 9 months, and
possibly less time on an uncapped business tariff.

Even the (domestic housing) solar panel installation companies hyping up
the payback period are quoting at least 8 years.

On a domestic installation the positioning of the fixed panels is not
optimal on the majority of houses. Most households will not use all of
the output during the long days in the summer, even with additional
batteries, and will not achieve a feed in anywhere near the domestic
price cap tariff.

[Tim+]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.

Panels are very very cheap now. <£100 for a 500W panel, which would give
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/longi-solar/himo6-hth-530
https://globalsolaratlas.info/detail?c=52.197585,0.139154,11&s=52.205016,0.129888&m=site&pv=small,180,38,1
On a domestic price cap tariff that would pay back in about 9 months, and
possibly less time on an uncapped business tariff.

Even the (domestic housing) solar panel installation companies hyping up
the payback period are quoting at least 8 years.
On a domestic installation the positioning of the fixed panels is not
optimal on the majority of houses. Most households will not use all of
the output during the long days in the summer, even with additional
batteries, and will not achieve a feed in anywhere near the domestic
price cap tariff.

Combine it with a battery and you can run on off peak prices and export at
double that price.

TIM

[www.GymRats.uk]

Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz07krz2z42o>
During a local radio broadcast a spokesman for Utilita said that they
expected the return on investment to take less than 5 years, as due to
the size of the installation the fixed costs were substantially less
than smaller installations. I was a bit surprised as I thought it would
be around twice that time.
I haven't been able to find any figures, but there are quite a few in
this NG who have a lot more expertise in these matters than me, and
should be better placed to comment.

My 4.6 kWp panels were installed end of 2015 and cost just under £7500.
Factoring the FIT payments and 100% usage of everything produced, it
broke even in June 2021 and as of end July (2024) it's returned a profit
of £6200.
No electricity is "wasted" on unnecessary stuff done for the sake of
trying to use excess energy, it's all used on regular day-to-day usage,
same as having a large 100% efficient battery but without having a
battery!

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by www.GymRats.uk
My 4.6 kWp panels were installed end of 2015 and cost just under £7500.
Factoring the FIT payments and 100% usage of everything produced, it
broke even in June 2021 and as of end July (2024) it's returned a profit
of £6200.
No electricity is "wasted" on unnecessary stuff done for the sake of
trying to use excess energy, it's all used on regular day-to-day usage,
same as having a large 100% efficient battery but without having a
battery!

Just to be clear, are you saying that you manage not to actually
export any energy at all?

Chris

[Spike]

Post by www.GymRats.uk
My 4.6 kWp panels were installed end of 2015 and cost just under £7500.
Factoring the FIT payments and 100% usage of everything produced, it
broke even in June 2021 and as of end July (2024) it's returned a profit
of £6200.
No electricity is "wasted" on unnecessary stuff done for the sake of
trying to use excess energy, it's all used on regular day-to-day usage,
same as having a large 100% efficient battery but without having a
battery!

JAAMOI, if the FIT payments were not factored in, what would the payback
time have been, and what profit would you have made?

These might be useful figures for anyone thinking of installing such panels
now that subsidies have ended.

[Theo]

Post by Spike

Post by www.GymRats.uk
My 4.6 kWp panels were installed end of 2015 and cost just under £7500.
Factoring the FIT payments and 100% usage of everything produced, it
broke even in June 2021 and as of end July (2024) it's returned a profit
of £6200.
No electricity is "wasted" on unnecessary stuff done for the sake of
trying to use excess energy, it's all used on regular day-to-day usage,
same as having a large 100% efficient battery but without having a
battery!

JAAMOI, if the FIT payments were not factored in, what would the payback
time have been, and what profit would you have made?
These might be useful figures for anyone thinking of installing such panels
now that subsidies have ended.

Not really, because the costs of materials and the costs of energy have
changed massively.

When I did this calculation for the wiki 2 years ago:
https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Solar_PV_example:_single_garage

energy was 35p/unit, now it's 25p/unit, while in 2018 I took out a fixed
tariff at 10.35p/unit. Those 400W panels I priced up at £180/panel are now
£60/panel.

So you have to do the numbers based on your costs *now* and your projection of
the price of energy in the future.

"Past performance is no guarantee of future results", as they say.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by www.GymRats.uk
My 4.6 kWp panels were installed end of 2015 and cost just under £7500.
Factoring the FIT payments and 100% usage of everything produced, it
broke even in June 2021 and as of end July (2024) it's returned a profit
of £6200.

And you never send us all christmas cards ...