Discussion:
Removing a light switch
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RJH
2025-02-20 04:12:50 UTC
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I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.

However, I'm not sure what to join together. A pic of the switch here:

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4

Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
alan_m
2025-02-20 07:12:21 UTC
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Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
Currently how many switches control the light?

Your photo seems to show an intermediate switch but not wired for 3 off
switches controlling one light. Have switches controlling this light
been removed in the past?
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
RJH
2025-02-20 10:44:58 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
From memory, there's two leads terminated, not shown in the pic - a live and
an earth.
Post by alan_m
Post by RJH
Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
Currently how many switches control the light?
Your photo seems to show an intermediate switch but not wired for 3 off
switches controlling one light. Have switches controlling this light
been removed in the past?
One other switch, outside the room. Both switches somehow control 5 LED
downlights via (he thinks) a transformer (the two white cables), and 2 240V
downlights (the grey cable).

The owner tells me the wiring's a mess - added to and hacked about at various
points. I don't want to get involved beyond removing the switch and tidying up
the wiring.
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
Andy Burns
2025-02-20 10:46:46 UTC
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Post by RJH
From memory, there's two leads terminated, not shown in the pic - a live and
an earth.
A wider picture would help be sure, then ...
TimW
2025-02-20 09:45:12 UTC
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Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
Baffling, yes. Long ago an Irishman on a building site told me not to
worry if you don't really know what you're doing with electrics, just
fall back on a simple, logical, scientific method of trail and error.

TW
RJH
2025-02-20 10:27:36 UTC
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Post by TimW
Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
Baffling, yes. Long ago an Irishman on a building site told me not to
worry if you don't really know what you're doing with electrics, just
fall back on a simple, logical, scientific method of trail and error.
Tempting!

Although perhaps I should finally nail it and learn how lighting circuits work
. . .
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
Andy Burns
2025-02-20 10:29:30 UTC
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Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Put the two green-yellow sleeved wires into a 2-way wago, if there's a
third earth just going to the terminal on the switchplate or backbox,
you will be removing that when you replace it with a wagobox?

Put the bottom/left red, the top/right red and the top/right black into
a 3-way way.

Put the top/left black into a 2-way wago just to keep it "parked" out
harm's way.

zip-tie the wagobox and done ...
Pancho
2025-02-20 12:01:45 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Put the two green-yellow sleeved wires into a 2-way wago, if there's a
third earth just going to the terminal on the switchplate or backbox,
you will be removing that when you replace it with a wagobox?
Put the bottom/left red, the top/right red and the top/right black into
a 3-way way.
Put the top/left black into a 2-way wago just to keep it "parked" out
harm's way.
zip-tie the wagobox and done ...
There is no top right black.

WARNING: I know nothing about electrics!!!!

Assuming 2 Gang switch, only one side of which does anything, My guess
would be:

2 Wago Bottom Left Red, Top Left Black
2 Wago Top Left Brown, Top Left Red
2 Wago Off picture Black, Off picture Blue (I assume they already join
off picture.)

My advice would be top wait for someone who knows.
Andy Burns
2025-02-20 12:44:24 UTC
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Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Pancho
2025-02-20 12:50:38 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?

The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Andy Burns
2025-02-20 13:00:43 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?
OK, the photo is so dingy the top/right BROWN looks black
Post by Pancho
The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Yes, altogether a better photo required.
Pancho
2025-02-20 13:17:10 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?
OK, the photo is so dingy the top/right BROWN looks black
Post by Pancho
The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Yes, altogether a better photo required.
It's ok, I got my left and right confused :-)

It's funny to me the brown was obvious, maybe better eyes or better monitor?
The colours I have difficulty distinguishing are deep blue
and black, particularly in poor light. e.g. socks.
RJH
2025-02-20 13:58:01 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?
OK, the photo is so dingy the top/right BROWN looks black
Post by Pancho
The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Yes, altogether a better photo required.
On it!
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
RJH
2025-02-21 10:38:37 UTC
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Post by RJH
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?
OK, the photo is so dingy the top/right BROWN looks black
Post by Pancho
The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Yes, altogether a better photo required.
On it!
He's sent me another pic - not sure if it helps:

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
nib
2025-02-21 14:40:47 UTC
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Post by RJH
Post by RJH
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?
OK, the photo is so dingy the top/right BROWN looks black
Post by Pancho
The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Yes, altogether a better photo required.
On it!
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
So it's wired to work as a single-pole changeover, with the lower,
single red pin 1 acting as the common, and the other side 1 and 2 acting
as the NO and NC.

The black to 1 and red to 2 at the top go to the NO and NC of the other
end changeover switch.

The red on the lower 1 goes to the common on the other end switch.

The brown on the upper 2 is the mains in.

The other black wire loops to the blue neutral of the mains in.

So at the other end the load is connected between the black on the upper
1 NO connection and the looped up neutral.

I think that works!

nib

The brown is the mains in.



The brown to 2 is the feed to the lamp or the mains power in, either is
possible depending on which end the lamp is and which end the live feed
is taken.

nib
nib
2025-02-21 14:53:15 UTC
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Post by nib
Post by RJH
Post by RJH
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?
OK, the photo is so dingy the top/right BROWN looks black
Post by Pancho
The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Yes, altogether a better photo required.
On it!
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
So it's wired to work as a single-pole changeover, with the lower,
single red pin 1 acting as the common, and the other side 1 and 2 acting
as the NO and NC.
The black to 1 and red to 2 at the top go to the NO and NC of the other
end changeover switch.
The red on the lower 1 goes to the common on the other end switch.
The brown on the upper 2 is the mains in.
The other black wire loops to the blue neutral of the mains in.
So at the other end the load is connected between the black on the upper
1 NO connection and the looped up neutral.
I think that works!
nib
The brown is the mains in.
The brown to 2 is the feed to the lamp or the mains power in, either is
possible depending on which end the lamp is and which end the live feed
is taken.
nib
Like this (apols for the rotation!)?

nib


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jWkpzI6zVGrdYQwsCPdWMWH6cedjfUOd/view?usp=sharing
John Rumm
2025-02-22 00:26:51 UTC
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Post by RJH
Post by RJH
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Pancho
There is no top right black.
There was in the photo I saw ...
Are we going to have an argument about if the dress is blue or gold?
OK, the photo is so dingy the top/right BROWN looks black
Post by Pancho
The giveaway is the companion blue wire. (brown,blue vs red,black)
Yes, altogether a better photo required.
On it!
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Well it explains the odd placement of the bottom wire - the terminal
screw is not where I expected it to be :-)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Pancho
2025-02-20 13:15:01 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Put the two green-yellow sleeved wires into a 2-way wago, if there's a
third earth just going to the terminal on the switchplate or backbox,
you will be removing that when you replace it with a wagobox?
Put the bottom/left red, the top/right red and the top/right black
into a 3-way way.
Put the top/left black into a 2-way wago just to keep it "parked" out
harm's way.
zip-tie the wagobox and done ...
There is no top right black.
WARNING: I know nothing about electrics!!!!
Assuming 2 Gang switch, only one side of which does anything, My guess
2 Wago Bottom Left Red, Top Left Black
2 Wago Top Left Brown, Top Left Red
2 Wago Off picture Black, Off picture Blue (I assume they already join
off picture.)
My advice would be top wait for someone who knows.
2 Wago Bottom Left Red, Top Left Black
2 Wago Top RIGHT Brown, Top RIGHT Red
2 Wago Off picture Black, Off picture Blue (I assume they already join)
John Rumm
2025-02-21 08:35:04 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by Andy Burns
Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Put the two green-yellow sleeved wires into a 2-way wago, if there's a
third earth just going to the terminal on the switchplate or backbox,
you will be removing that when you replace it with a wagobox?
Put the bottom/left red, the top/right red and the top/right black
into a 3-way way.
Put the top/left black into a 2-way wago just to keep it "parked" out
harm's way.
zip-tie the wagobox and done ...
There is no top right black.
WARNING: I know nothing about electrics!!!!
Assuming 2 Gang switch, only one side of which does anything, My guess
It is not a 2 gang switch - it is just a single grid switch module. It
is an intermediate switch with four terminals. In one switch position
the bottom terminals will be connected to the top ones directly above,
in the other they will be connected to the top terminals on the other
side. So basically they are designed to pass through two connections
directly, or swap them over.

(still not sure why the bottom left red seems to be poking in the screw
hole!)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
John Rumm
2025-02-20 12:21:00 UTC
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Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
Hmmm, ok reading between the lines a bit here...

It looks like they have used an intermediate switch as two way switch.

(You can do that - you can think of an intermediate switch as a pair of
single pole double throw (i.e. single pole changeover) switches with
both of their two outputs wired in parallel to the outputs, and their
individual common terminals individually wired to the input terminals).

Probably like in the 4th diagram here: "Two way switching - 3 wire control":

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/WiringDiagrams.pdf

If that is the case, then you would join the red and black currently
sharing the top right terminal in one wago, and the join the other two
wires from the left hand side top and bottom together in another.

(a bigger picture photo might help)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Pancho
2025-02-20 12:47:50 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
Hmmm, ok reading between the lines a bit here...
It looks like they have used an intermediate switch as two way switch.
(You can do that - you can think of an intermediate switch as a pair of
single pole double throw (i.e. single pole changeover) switches with
both of their two outputs wired in parallel to the outputs, and their
individual common terminals individually wired to the input terminals).
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/WiringDiagrams.pdf
If that is the case, then you would join the red and black currently
sharing the top right terminal in one wago, and the join the other two
wires from the left hand side top and bottom together in another.
(a bigger picture photo might help)
My guess was that it wasn't two-way switching. Assuming this switch, and
another switch located elsewhere

My guess was that both switches, this one and the one elsewhere, needed
to be on for the light to light up, like a logical AND rather than the
standard two way XOR.

That is the same if it is double gang or double pole (which seems more
plausible).

Easy for RJH to test.
John Rumm
2025-02-20 13:49:58 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by John Rumm
Post by RJH
I'd like to remove a light switch and conceal the wiring within a stud
partition wall. Necessary connections will be with Wagos, and the bundle
enclosed in a Wago box. The circuit will then be controlled by another switch
already installed and working elsewhere.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B1mGDZLe8GVFWi4
Always found lighting wiring, especially where multiple cables converge (3 in
this case), baffling . . .
Hmmm, ok reading between the lines a bit here...
It looks like they have used an intermediate switch as two way switch.
(You can do that - you can think of an intermediate switch as a pair
of single pole double throw (i.e. single pole changeover) switches
with both of their two outputs wired in parallel to the outputs, and
their individual common terminals individually wired to the input
terminals).
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/WiringDiagrams.pdf
If that is the case, then you would join the red and black currently
sharing the top right terminal in one wago, and the join the other two
wires from the left hand side top and bottom together in another.
(a bigger picture photo might help)
My guess was that it wasn't two-way switching. Assuming this switch, and
another switch located elsewhere
My guess was that both switches, this one and the one elsewhere, needed
to be on for the light to light up, like a logical AND rather than the
standard two way XOR.
Does not sounds like a particularly useful switching arrangement though,
one switch marked on / off, and the other off / are you sure? :-)
Post by Pancho
That is the same if it is double gang or double pole (which seems more
plausible).
It looks like a MK grid switch in a single faceplate frame - and it is
marked "inter" - so it is an intermediate switch. (although not sure
about the wiring to the bottom terminal - the placement of the wire
looks odd - however I have not used that particular grid switch, so
there may be a feature I am not aware of)
Post by Pancho
Easy for RJH to test.
Indeed
--
Cheers,

John.

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RJH
2025-02-20 14:00:44 UTC
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Post by Pancho
My guess was that both switches, this one and the one elsewhere, needed
to be on for the light to light up, like a logical AND rather than the
standard two way XOR.
No - either controlled all of the lights. So you could have a switch in an
'on' position, and the lights could be off (IYSWIM)
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
John Rumm
2025-02-20 14:22:39 UTC
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Post by RJH
Post by Pancho
My guess was that both switches, this one and the one elsewhere, needed
to be on for the light to light up, like a logical AND rather than the
standard two way XOR.
No - either controlled all of the lights. So you could have a switch in an
'on' position, and the lights could be off (IYSWIM)
Which is "standard" 2 way switching:

https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching

Although there are many standard ways of doing it :-)

Sounds like the only unusual bit was the end you pictured was using an
intermediate switch. These are normally added between pairs of 2 way
switches to add additional switching points should you want more than 2
switches controlling a single light (or group of) lights.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Pancho
2025-02-20 15:23:06 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
It looks like a MK grid switch in a single faceplate frame - and it is
marked "inter" - so it is an intermediate switch. (although not sure
about the wiring to the bottom terminal - the placement of the wire
looks odd - however I have not used that particular grid switch, so
there may be a feature I am not aware of)
OK, sorry, I understand now, intermediate switch, used like a two way.

I just see can't see how it works, something going on off picture maybe?
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