Discussion:
Live wire with 5v a.c. when off
(too old to reply)
David in Normandy
2008-03-11 09:24:07 UTC
Permalink
My trusty electrical screwdriver lit up (dimly) on the
switched live wire to our kitchen lights. So I checked it
with a multi meter and it shows 5 volts ac between live and
neutral when the light switch is in the off position.
How is that possible? Is this potentially dangerous? Do I
need to take any action? The kitchen light seems to work
without problem.
--
David in Normandy. ***@yahoo.fr
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted.
Andy Burns
2008-03-11 09:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David in Normandy
My trusty electrical screwdriver
There is no such thing as a *trusty* neon-screwdriver
Post by David in Normandy
lit up (dimly) on the
switched live wire to our kitchen lights. So I checked it
with a multi meter and it shows 5 volts ac between live and
neutral when the light switch is in the off position.
How is that possible?
Most likely picking up an induced voltage from a parallel conductor,
digital multimeter has such a high impedance so will not drain the
charge, an analogue meter would probably show nothing.
Post by David in Normandy
Is this potentially dangerous?
No, there will be virtually zero current available.
Post by David in Normandy
Do I
need to take any action? The kitchen light seems to work
without problem.
If you're unlucky and you use CFLs you might get the occasional flicker
from then when turned off as they may occasionally manage to charge an
internal capacitor.
Man at B&Q
2008-03-11 13:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by David in Normandy
My trusty electrical screwdriver
There is no such thing as a *trusty* neon-screwdriver
Post by David in Normandy
lit up (dimly) on the
switched live wire to our kitchen lights. So I checked it
with a multi meter and it shows 5 volts ac between live and
neutral when the light switch is in the off position.
How is that possible?
Most likely picking up an induced voltage from a parallel conductor,
digital multimeter has such a high impedance so will not drain the
charge, an analogue meter would probably show nothing.
Post by David in Normandy
Is this potentially dangerous?
No, there will be virtually zero current available.
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.

MBQ
Andy Burns
2008-03-11 14:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.

* = iamp
Man at B&Q
2008-03-11 15:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.

MBQ
:Jerry:
2008-03-13 09:14:28 UTC
Permalink
"Man at B&Q" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b04beab6-d679-4770-b0d7-***@o77g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.

MBQ
</quote>

Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(

One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
stevelup
2008-03-13 12:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.

1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).

2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
:Jerry:
2008-03-13 14:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.

1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).

2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.

It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
Man at B&Q
2008-03-13 16:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
We all know that, FFS.

Which bit of ohms law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law do you
not understand? It's simple enough, after all.

You can't get the current to flow through a load without an adequate
voltage.

So, do tell us, just how much current can you get to flow through an
elephant with a potential difference of 1V? Is it fatal to the
elephant?

MBQ
:Jerry:
2008-03-13 16:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
We all know that, FFS.

<snip>

So why are you arguing against yourself then FFS! The point is, it
might not be an elephant, it might be a child having just climbed out
of the bath - sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop suggesting
otherwise.
:Jerry:
2008-03-13 16:36:30 UTC
Permalink
":Jerry:" <***@INVALID.INVALID> wrote in message news:A8mdnT-***@bt.com...
<snip>
sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop suggesting otherwise.
Oops, Sod all *volts* but many amps...
Bob Mannix
2008-03-13 16:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Man at B&Q
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
We all know that, FFS.
<snip>
So why are you arguing against yourself then FFS! The point is, it might
not be an elephant, it might be a child having just climbed out of the
bath - sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop suggesting otherwise.
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod all
volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar. Jeez! 5v isn't
going to affect anyone, wet or not.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
:Jerry:
2008-03-13 17:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Mannix
Post by Man at B&Q
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply
100s
of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google
groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
We all know that, FFS.
<snip>
So why are you arguing against yourself then FFS! The point is, it
might not be an elephant, it might be a child having just climbed
out of the bath - sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop
suggesting otherwise.
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
stevelup
2008-03-13 18:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
Post by Bob Mannix
Post by Man at B&Q
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply
100s
of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
We all know that, FFS.
<snip>
So why are you arguing against yourself then FFS! The point is, it
might not be an elephant, it might be a child having just climbed
out of the bath - sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop
suggesting otherwise.
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
Hey - at least that bit was quoted properly...
:Jerry:
2008-03-13 19:31:46 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by :Jerry:
Post by Bob Mannix
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
Hey - at least that bit was quoted properly...

Yes because he is using a proper nntp server unlike you.
stevelup
2008-03-13 22:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
Post by :Jerry:
Post by Bob Mannix
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
Hey - at least that bit was quoted properly...
Yes because he is using a proper nntp server unlike you.
Who's he? I replied to you!
:Jerry:
2008-03-14 09:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
Post by :Jerry:
Post by Bob Mannix
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
Hey - at least that bit was quoted properly...
Yes because he is using a proper nntp server unlike you.
Who's he? I replied to you!

Read the attributions, assuming you know how...
stevelup
2008-03-14 10:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
Post by :Jerry:
Post by Bob Mannix
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
Hey - at least that bit was quoted properly...
Yes because he is using a proper nntp server unlike you.
Who's he? I replied to you!
Read the attributions, assuming you know how...
I'm losing the will to live.

For the love of god, *YOU* buggered up the quoting again, not me.

HERE:-
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
Hey - at least that bit was quoted properly...
Yes because he is using a proper nntp server unlike you.
My comment at the top, yours on the bottom. Why the hell are you doing
this?

AND AGAIN:-
Post by stevelup
Who's he? I replied to you!
Read the attributions, assuming you know how...
My comment at the top, yours on the bottom. Are you deliberately doing
this? Even Outlook Express doesn't make such an arse of quoting.
Steve Lupton
2008-03-13 23:06:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
Post by :Jerry:
Post by Bob Mannix
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
Hey - at least that bit was quoted properly...
Yes because he is using a proper nntp server unlike you.
Here you go. I posted this from my Giganews account instead.

Does that make you feel better...
Man at B&Q
2008-03-13 20:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
Post by Bob Mannix
Post by Man at B&Q
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply
100s
of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
We all know that, FFS.
<snip>
So why are you arguing against yourself then FFS! The point is, it
might not be an elephant, it might be a child having just climbed
out of the bath - sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop
suggesting otherwise.
He's not FFS (again). Yes many amps will kill, we know that but sod
all volts = sod all amps, NOT MANY, unless you are a metal bar.
Jeez! 5v isn't going to affect anyone, wet or not.
WWHHHOOOSSSSHHH........
Is that the sound of an electrocuted elephant? Did it survive?

MBQ
Man at B&Q
2008-03-13 16:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Man at B&Q
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
We all know that, FFS.
<snip>
So why are you arguing against yourself then FFS!
You really are braindead aren't you.

Try reading the whole thread, from the beginning.

The issue was whether 5V AC was dangerous.

I pointed out that even with a low impedance source capable of
delivering many amps, there would be insufficient current flow
[through a human].

Someone came out with the age old ditty about volts and amps.

I pointed out that the current depends upon the voltage and the
impedance of the load.

You then joined in with (as usual) personal abuse and irrelevant data.

In the case of possible danger to a human, 5V AC is simply not enough
voltage to cause a dangerous current to flow.

In your example of 1V and an elephant, I doubt that 1V is sufficicnt
to cause a dangerous current to flow.

Telling us it's the current that kills, and implying that there is a
danger, is meaningless when there is no possibility of a current
capable of killing, due to the insufficent voltage.

I'm not, FFS.
Post by Man at B&Q
The point is, it
might not be an elephant, it might be a child having just climbed out
of the bath - sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop suggesting
otherwise.
Bringing wet children into it makes no difference. 5V AC is still not
enough to make a fatal current flow.

Where did I say that amps will not kill? They do, but you need a
sufficiently large voltage to cause the current to flow through a
given load.

It's ohm's law, stupid.

MBQ
m***@privacy.net
2008-03-13 17:07:10 UTC
Permalink
On 13 Mar,
Post by Man at B&Q
Where did I say that amps will not kill? They do, but you need a
sufficiently large voltage to cause the current to flow through a
given load.
I was nearly killed by 50 volts once, but that was because it knocked me of
me perch, but I managed to grab something on the way down.

Much lower wouldn't give a big enough tingle even for that.
--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply
Man at B&Q
2008-03-13 20:27:01 UTC
Permalink
On 13 Mar,  
Post by Man at B&Q
Where did I say that amps will not kill? They do, but you need a
sufficiently large voltage to cause the current to flow through a
given load.
I was nearly killed by 50 volts once, but that was because it knocked me of
me perch, but I managed to grab something on the way down.
Much lower wouldn't give a big enough tingle even for that.
Quite.

MBQ
Frank Erskine
2008-03-15 00:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@privacy.net
On 13 Mar,
Post by Man at B&Q
Where did I say that amps will not kill? They do, but you need a
sufficiently large voltage to cause the current to flow through a
given load.
I was nearly killed by 50 volts once, but that was because it knocked me of
me perch, but I managed to grab something on the way down.
Much lower wouldn't give a big enough tingle even for that.
I spent nearly 20 years of my working life messing about with 50V dc
(in (G)PO telephone exchanges) and can honestly say that I was unable
to sense its presence 'by hand'.

The real 'shocker' is when it's superimposed with back emfs from
relays etc, and ringing current of some 75V ac; as well as coming into
occasional contact with +/- 80V dc (into inductive loads) on telex
circuits!

As a voltage it's all pretty harmless really - however dropping a
spanner across 10000A+ power busbars produces a somewhat different
effect . Like molten spanners... :-)))

The backup batteries (*large* open-cell lead-acid jobbies) would
barely flinch at such an overload.
--
Frank Erskine
Rod
2008-03-15 08:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Erskine
Post by m***@privacy.net
On 13 Mar,
Post by Man at B&Q
Where did I say that amps will not kill? They do, but you need a
sufficiently large voltage to cause the current to flow through a
given load.
I was nearly killed by 50 volts once, but that was because it knocked me of
me perch, but I managed to grab something on the way down.
Much lower wouldn't give a big enough tingle even for that.
I spent nearly 20 years of my working life messing about with 50V dc
(in (G)PO telephone exchanges) and can honestly say that I was unable
to sense its presence 'by hand'.
The real 'shocker' is when it's superimposed with back emfs from
relays etc, and ringing current of some 75V ac; as well as coming into
occasional contact with +/- 80V dc (into inductive loads) on telex
circuits!
As a voltage it's all pretty harmless really - however dropping a
spanner across 10000A+ power busbars produces a somewhat different
effect . Like molten spanners... :-)))
The backup batteries (*large* open-cell lead-acid jobbies) would
barely flinch at such an overload.
Has anyone mentioned power over ethernet (POE) being at 48 V DC? If it
were not relatively safe a lower voltage would likely have been specified.
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
stevelup
2008-03-13 18:55:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q and use (broken) Google groups,
brainless... :~(
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones.
1) Never seen a more bizarre way of quoting - and certainly not how it
is normally done on usenet (broken Google ones or not!).
2) Could you explain exactly how one volt could possibly kill an
elephant at any amount of current.
It's not the volts that kill but the current (amps).
Some very high quality quoting again there. I'd suggest you use Google
Groups - at least it behaves properly...

Just to clarify - the last line there (incorrectly indented and tagged
onto the bottom of my post) was posted by :Jerry-I've-Got-A-Broken-
Newsreader:

And to repeat what everyone else has said about ten times now - yes,
we are all fully capable of understanding that it is the current which
kills not the voltage.

What you have neglected to take into consideration is that with such
low voltages, there can only be incredibly low currents passing
through the relatively high resistance of an extremely large elephant.
:Jerry:
2008-03-13 19:35:52 UTC
Permalink
"stevelup" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a5f5526d-12c4-4f73-9ed2-***@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
<snip>

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
Andy Champ
2008-03-13 21:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
People who use Outlook Express shouldn't throw stones. Your newsreader
*is* broken.

And you won't get a dangerous current at 5V.

With moistened digits I'm about 300K thumb-to-thumb. At 240V mains
that'd give a thoroughly lethal milliamp (ish). At 5V it'd give 16
microamps. I don't even feel it, I've had 12V off model trains enough
as a kid and felt nothing.

Andy
stevelup
2008-03-13 22:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
You really are a complete plank aren't you?

When you have learned to quote properly, *and* stop using Outlook
Express as your newsreader, please feel free to come back and
criticise others.

In the meantime, go and investigate how to electrocute an elephant
with 1V.
Man at B&Q
2008-03-14 08:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
Does it not strike you as strange, :Jerry:, that you are in a minority
of one in having trouble correctly quoting posts in thread?

MBQ
stevelup
2008-03-14 10:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Man at B&Q
Post by :Jerry:
<snip>
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
Does it not strike you as strange, :Jerry:, that you are in a minority
of one in having trouble correctly quoting posts in thread?
MBQ
Every single post he has made has been misquoted. I cannot for love
nor money work out why he is doing it. In the first post, he quoted
using a <quote></unquote> block like you would use on a web forum. In
all subsequent posts, his reply appears at the same quotation level as
the message he is replying to.

I know he is using Outlook Express, but it does not behave like that.
The worse crime OE does is encourage top posting, it certainly is
capable of quoting correctly.
Owain
2008-03-13 19:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
What you have neglected to take into consideration is that with such
low voltages, there can only be incredibly low currents passing
through the relatively high resistance of an extremely large elephant.
What about a small elephant?

Is there a difference between African and Indian elephants?

In the absence of elephants with which to carry out a practical
experiment, could I kidnap some members of the local international
students' society, electrocute them, and extrapolate the results to
elephants?

Owain
Man at B&Q
2008-03-13 20:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Owain
Post by stevelup
What you have neglected to take into consideration is that with such
low voltages, there can only be incredibly low currents passing
through the relatively high resistance of an extremely large elephant.
What about a small elephant?
Is there a difference between African and Indian elephants?
What about the fifth elephant?

MBQ
stevelup
2008-03-13 22:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Man at B&Q
Post by Owain
Post by stevelup
What you have neglected to take into consideration is that with such
low voltages, there can only be incredibly low currents passing
through the relatively high resistance of an extremely large elephant.
What about a small elephant?
Is there a difference between African and Indian elephants?
What about the fifth elephant?
MBQ
Groan.
stevelup
2008-03-13 22:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Owain
Post by stevelup
What you have neglected to take into consideration is that with such
low voltages, there can only be incredibly low currents passing
through the relatively high resistance of an extremely large elephant.
What about a small elephant?
Is there a difference between African and Indian elephants?
In the absence of elephants with which to carry out a practical
experiment, could I kidnap some members of the local international
students' society, electrocute them, and extrapolate the results to
elephants?
Owain
I think you would more informative results by attempting to
electrocute :Jerry: using a watch battery.
Man at B&Q
2008-03-13 14:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by :Jerry:
<quote>
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Even if it were a low impedance source, that could supply 100s of
amps, there's insufficient voltage to be at all dangerous.
It's the volts that jolts, but the mill*s that kills.
* = iamp
If there aren't enough volts, there wont BE any mills. Try ohm law.
MBQ
</quote>
Might explain why you work at B&Q
I don't.
Post by :Jerry:
and use (broken) Google groups,
It's fine from here.
Post by :Jerry:
brainless... :~(
Takes on to know one.
Post by :Jerry:
One could have one volt but enough amps to kill an elephant.
Only if the load has a low enough impedance to allow the current to
flow. Since we're talking about hazard to humans, it's reasonable to
assume the load is a human body.

Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC (or 1v and an elephant if you like).

Like I said, try googling ohms law you brainless fcukwit.

MBQ
Andy Burns
2008-03-13 19:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Man at B&Q
Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
so with a better source of 5V than in the original scenario, it's only
about a factor of two out.
Man at B&Q
2008-03-13 20:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
Without piercing the skin?

MBQ
George (dicegeorge)
2008-03-13 22:18:53 UTC
Permalink
When i was a boy i'd lick the end of a 9volt battery with my tongue and get
a tingle!

I started a fire once running 12volts DC through a too thin wire,
the plastic round the wire melted and burnt poisonously,
it could probably be done with a 6 volt motorbike battery..

But i doubt if you could light a bicycle light bulb with the 5volt AC which
the original poster measured on his mains when turned off...

Something to do with Impedance,
but exactly what I dont know,
is it that electrons are like imps as they dance to AC/DC...

]]] original post was:
My trusty electrical screwdriver lit up (dimly) on the
switched live wire to our kitchen lights. So I checked it
with a multi meter and it shows 5 volts ac between live and
neutral when the light switch is in the off position.
How is that possible? Is this potentially dangerous? Do I
need to take any action? The kitchen light seems to work
without problem.
--
David in Normandy.


]]] Andy Burns said:
Most likely picking up an induced voltage from a parallel conductor,
digital multimeter has such a high impedance so will not drain the
charge, an analogue meter would probably show nothing.
Bob Mannix
2008-03-14 07:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by George (dicegeorge)
When i was a boy i'd lick the end of a 9volt battery with my tongue and
get a tingle!
I started a fire once running 12volts DC through a too thin wire,
the plastic round the wire melted and burnt poisonously,
it could probably be done with a 6 volt motorbike battery..
But i doubt if you could light a bicycle light bulb with the 5volt AC
which the original poster measured on his mains when turned off...
A friend when I was young put the two wires from the poorly regulated 12V
train track transformer on his tongue. Granted he (nor I, having seen it)
would ever do it again but he suffered no permanent damage!

As another poster said, 50V is (give or take) where it starts getting dodgy.
The same friend (as it happens, must be something about him!) did get stuck
on a 110V DC supply, through his hands and down to his feet which were bare,
on steel boat deck plates. Now we are actually in the realms of "it's the
mills that kills" rather than in the fantasy world of the 5V'ers. Yes he was
on the way out, he couldn't let go and knew he was blacking out and a goner.
One of the crew found him and threw the breaker in time (fortunately).

Know your enemy. A 110V DC supply on a boat is effing dangerous. 5V anywhere
isn't to humans as electricity.

I deal with large power supplies in my work - a 50V, 10000A power supply
(which we have) isn't particularly dangerous (unless you drop something
metal across the output and get flash burns). You could put your hand on the
conductors (unless stood in a metal bucket of water) and it's immaterial
whether it's a 10000A supply or a 1A supply, you would get a bit of a
tingle. Another supply up the way is about 130V /500A. This is a dangerous
beast to work on as the voltage is too high.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
u***@mail.com
2008-03-14 10:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Mannix
Post by George (dicegeorge)
When i was a boy i'd lick the end of a 9volt battery with my tongue and
get a tingle!
I started a fire once running 12volts DC through a too thin wire,
the plastic round the wire melted and burnt poisonously,
it could probably be done with a 6 volt motorbike battery..
But i doubt if you could light a bicycle light bulb with the 5volt AC
which the original poster measured on his mains when turned off...
A friend when I was young put the two wires from the poorly regulated 12V
train track transformer on his tongue. Granted he (nor I, having seen it)
would ever do it again but he suffered no permanent damage!
As another poster said, 50V is (give or take) where it starts getting dodgy.
The same friend (as it happens, must be something about him!) did get stuck
on a 110V DC supply, through his hands and down to his feet which were bare,
on steel boat deck plates. Now we are actually in the realms of "it's the
mills that kills" rather than in the fantasy world of the 5V'ers. Yes he was
on the way out, he couldn't let go and knew he was blacking out and a goner.
One of the crew found him and threw the breaker in time (fortunately).
Know your enemy. A 110V DC supply on a boat is effing dangerous. 5V anywhere
isn't to humans as electricity.
I deal with large power supplies in my work - a 50V, 10000A power supply
(which we have) isn't particularly dangerous (unless you drop something
metal across the output and get flash burns). You could put your hand on the
conductors (unless stood in a metal bucket of water) and it's immaterial
whether it's a 10000A supply or a 1A supply, you would get a bit of a
tingle. Another supply up the way is about 130V /500A. This is a dangerous
beast to work on as the voltage is too high.
And that is one of the reasons why (archaic term coming) telephone
exchanges use equipment powered by 48V DC. It is less dangerous than
using higher voltages. Note that I did not say it was safe - as
pointed out by other people, shorting out a 48V DC supply that can
deliver high currents is a bad thing - so dropping conductive metal
tools onto bare bus-bars or terminals of opposite polarity is
seriously bad news.

However, telephony does have surprises up its sleeve - ringing
currents in the UK are nominally 75V AC at 25Hz, which is enough to
give you a nasty jangle. Thankfully, in normal working they are not
continuous, so giving you time to let go between rings if necessary.

For serious shocks, the old telephone magnetos could give a severe
belt. If you are familiar with really old phones that don't have a
keypad or dial, what they had was a small handle to crank that rang a
bell at the exchange. This was achieved by using a small magneto to
generate the power. Some American ones could generate up to 110V AC at
5 amps (at least according to this website: <URL:http://
www.oldphoneman.com/FSMagnetos.htm> !

Sid
stevelup
2008-03-13 22:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
so with a better source of 5V than in the original scenario, it's only
about a factor of two out.
Ok. But you have missed the more important part of this discussion.

What about 1V through an elephant?
George (dicegeorge)
2008-03-13 23:10:32 UTC
Permalink
you cannot be serious!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio4/aod.shtml?radio4/nightwatch

how to electrocute the turtle
on which discworld flies?

Terry Pratchett's Night Watch - Commander Sam Vimes falls through a hole in
time...
Mike Barnes
2008-03-14 09:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
so with a better source of 5V than in the original scenario, it's only
about a factor of two out.
Ok. But you have missed the more important part of this discussion.
What about 1V through an elephant?
You can't put volts *through* anything. You put volts across something
and *amps* go through that something. Which is where we came in, I think.
--
Mike Barnes
stevelup
2008-03-14 10:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by stevelup
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
so with a better source of 5V than in the original scenario, it's only
about a factor of two out.
Ok. But you have missed the more important part of this discussion.
What about 1V through an elephant?
You can't put volts *through* anything. You put volts across something
and *amps* go through that something. Which is where we came in, I think.
--
Mike Barnes
I think that is a little pedantic... and I'm sure you were quite aware
that it was a joke, not a scientific statement!
Mike Barnes
2008-03-14 10:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by stevelup
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
so with a better source of 5V than in the original scenario, it's only
about a factor of two out.
Ok. But you have missed the more important part of this discussion.
What about 1V through an elephant?
You can't put volts *through* anything. You put volts across something
and *amps* go through that something. Which is where we came in, I think.
--
Mike Barnes
I think that is a little pedantic... and I'm sure you were quite aware
that it was a joke, not a scientific statement!
Fair enough, if you understand that it's simply ridiculous to talk of
putting volts through anything, and intended that idea (not just the
elephant) to come across as funny. But it didn't come across that way to
me.
--
Mike Barnes
Bob Mannix
2008-03-14 07:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Man at B&Q
Explain how you will get a hazardous current to flow through a human
with a potential of 5v AC
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
Where? "I've seen figures" is an all to coomon and excessively pointless and
irritating point to often made on ng's! "I've seen figures (reference
quote)" on the other hand is just the opposite.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Andy Burns
2008-03-14 09:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Mannix
Post by Andy Burns
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
Where?
e.g.

http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/jeff/courses/old/433A/PHYSICS433safety.html
Bob Mannix
2008-03-14 09:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Bob Mannix
Post by Andy Burns
I've seen figures for arm-to-arm resistance as between 500 and 1000 ohms
with good contact, and 16mA as the lowest "can't let go" current for AC,
Where?
e.g.
http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/jeff/courses/old/433A/PHYSICS433safety.html
Which says lowest resistance 1000 Ohms, not 500-1000Ohms and says 100mA
possible heart stoppage - ie 110V mains can kill. Did anyone say it
couldn't? Au contraire, we have all agreed that point (including me).

5V, with the lowest possible contact resistance (ie two wet hands grasping
metal rods) you are down at "definite shock" levels (ie you feel it). You
only have access to one connection anyway in the situation under description
and the resistances then skyrocket up into the 10's of kOhm and you will
feel nothing.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Andy Burns
2008-03-14 10:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Mannix
Which says lowest resistance 1000 Ohms, not 500-1000Ohms
http://www.ese.upenn.edu/rca/geninfo/safety.html

So if dripping wet through, gripping two large electodes very tightly,
tensing all your muscles 12V AC *might* be enough to "lock you on".

I don't think anyone said that the original 5V was dangerous.
stevelup
2008-03-14 10:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Bob Mannix
Which says lowest resistance 1000 Ohms, not 500-1000Ohms
http://www.ese.upenn.edu/rca/geninfo/safety.html
So if dripping wet through, gripping two large electodes very tightly,
tensing all your muscles 12V AC *might* be enough to "lock you on".
I don't think anyone said that the original 5V was dangerous.
No but :Jerry: said 1V could kill an elephant...
Bob Mannix
2008-03-14 10:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Bob Mannix
Which says lowest resistance 1000 Ohms, not 500-1000Ohms
http://www.ese.upenn.edu/rca/geninfo/safety.html
So if dripping wet through, gripping two large electodes very tightly,
tensing all your muscles 12V AC *might* be enough to "lock you on".
I don't think anyone said that the original 5V was dangerous.
So why are you arguing against yourself then FFS! The point is, it might
not be an elephant, it might be a child having just climbed out of the
bath - sod all amps but many amps will kill - stop suggesting otherwise.
The implication being that such a child was at significant risk from 5V.
Which (s)he isn't. Which is why we all came in.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Man at B&Q
2008-03-14 11:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Bob Mannix
Which says lowest resistance 1000 Ohms, not 500-1000Ohms
http://www.ese.upenn.edu/rca/geninfo/safety.html
So if dripping wet through, gripping two large electodes very tightly,
tensing all your muscles 12V AC *might* be enough to "lock you on".
I don't think anyone said that the original 5V was dangerous.
Maybe not directly, but the argument is about accepting the fact that
it isn't dangerous, and the reasons why it isn't dangerous.

MBQ
stevelup
2008-03-11 09:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David in Normandy
My trusty electrical screwdriver lit up (dimly) on the
switched live wire to our kitchen lights. So I checked it
with a multi meter and it shows 5 volts ac between live and
neutral when the light switch is in the off position.
How is that possible? Is this potentially dangerous? Do I
need to take any action? The kitchen light seems to work
without problem.
--
 To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
 subject line, or it will be automatically deleted.
There is no such thing as a trusty electrical screwdriver. They are
the most dangerous tool ever invented... Capable of both false
negatives and false positives, *and* having the ability to kill you if
they get damp.

To answer your question though, the voltage you are seeing will almost
certainly be being induced into the cable where it runs alongside
other live cables and is nothing to worry about.

Is the voltage present with a load in place (the light bulb).

Steve
m***@gmail.com
2008-03-11 09:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
There is no such thing as a trusty electrical screwdriver. They are
the most dangerous tool ever invented... Capable of both false
negatives and false positives, *and* having the ability to kill you if
they get damp.
Steve
Really? How can they kill? And how can they be sold if they are
sooooo dangerous?

Matt
stevelup
2008-03-11 10:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
There is no such thing as a trusty electrical screwdriver. They are
the most dangerous tool ever invented... Capable of both false
negatives and false positives, *and* having the ability to kill you if
they get damp.
Steve
Really?  How can they kill?  And how can they be sold if they are
sooooo dangerous?
Matt
1) There is no way to know if they are actually working properly. You
could 'test' a circuit, not have the neon illuminate and assume the
circuit is safe. Electrocution follows shortly afterwards. Although it
must be pointed out that this isn't a direct result of the tool,
rather from flawed diagnostic techniques.

2) Moisture. Most of the neon screwdrivers use either a single
resistor or a block of semi-conductive foam between the pad on the
back and the neon lamp. Lets say your screwdriver gets soaked right
through somehow and is full of water without you noticing it. The rest
is obvious.

They really are stupid devices and shouldn't be used - indeed,
shouldn't be sold...
stevelup
2008-03-11 10:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Really?  How can they kill?  And how can they be sold if they are
sooooo dangerous?
Matt
ps. your post was reeeeeeaaalllyy condescending...
m***@care2.com
2008-03-11 13:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by stevelup
There is no such thing as a trusty electrical screwdriver. They are
the most dangerous tool ever invented... Capable of both false
negatives and false positives, *and* having the ability to kill you if
they get damp.
Steve
Really? How can they kill? And how can they be sold if they are
sooooo dangerous?
Matt
The annual electrocution death rate shows they arent particularly
dangerous, but theyre certainly not safe tools. Surely no grown up
thinks unsafe tools arent sold.


NT
stevelup
2008-03-11 13:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@care2.com
Post by stevelup
There is no such thing as a trusty electrical screwdriver. They are
the most dangerous tool ever invented... Capable of both false
negatives and false positives, *and* having the ability to kill you if
they get damp.
Steve
Really?  How can they kill?  And how can they be sold if they are
sooooo dangerous?
Matt
The annual electrocution death rate shows they arent particularly
dangerous, but theyre certainly not safe tools. Surely no grown up
thinks unsafe tools arent sold.
NT
Indeed. Hammers are dangerous if swung at someone's head, yet it is
obvious that this is not an appropriate use of a hammer.

The difference with the neon tester screwdrivers is that they are
unsafe if you use them in the way they *are* intended to be used. It
is not at all obvious that they are unsafe which is why I do not
understand them being on sale in the first place.

Steve
newshound
2008-03-11 19:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by stevelup
The difference with the neon tester screwdrivers is that they are
unsafe if you use them in the way they *are* intended to be used. It
is not at all obvious that they are unsafe which is why I do not
understand them being on sale in the first place.
Steve
But as long as you test for a positive every single time you rely on a
negative they aren't that risky.

*We* all know to do that, of course. The people at risk are those who don't
know.
Appin
2008-03-12 13:25:02 UTC
Permalink
The message
Post by m***@care2.com
The annual electrocution death rate shows they arent particularly
dangerous, but theyre certainly not safe tools. Surely no grown up
thinks unsafe tools arent sold.
Surely the phrase "safe tools" is something of an oxymoron?
Andy Hall
2008-03-13 19:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Appin
The message
Post by m***@care2.com
The annual electrocution death rate shows they arent particularly
dangerous, but theyre certainly not safe tools. Surely no grown up
thinks unsafe tools arent sold.
Surely the phrase "safe tools" is something of an oxymoron?
Our own good Dr. Drivel is a fairly harmless tool....
Grimly Curmudgeon
2008-03-11 12:08:55 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
Post by stevelup
There is no such thing as a trusty electrical screwdriver. They are
the most dangerous tool ever invented... Capable of both false
negatives and false positives, *and* having the ability to kill you if
they get damp.
People still buy them out of sheer handiness, but it's not a
recommendation. I've been using voltstiks for a couple of years and find
them better all round. A decent voltstik like the Fluke one is better
than some others, as it is fairly selective and needs to be close to a
wire or connnector, while some of the other ones light up within inches
of a live conductor, which is useless sometimes.
--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
2008-03-11 17:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grimly Curmudgeon
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
Post by stevelup
There is no such thing as a trusty electrical screwdriver. They are
the most dangerous tool ever invented... Capable of both false
negatives and false positives, *and* having the ability to kill you
if they get damp.
People still buy them out of sheer handiness, but it's not a
recommendation. I've been using voltstiks for a couple of years and
find them better all round. A decent voltstik like the Fluke one is
better than some others, as it is fairly selective and needs to be
close to a wire or connnector, while some of the other ones light up
within inches of a live conductor, which is useless sometimes.
Why do voltsticks light up when you wave them about quickly?

Or is my voltstick didgy?
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257
Grimly Curmudgeon
2008-03-11 17:43:57 UTC
Permalink
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "The Medway Handyman"
Post by The Medway Handyman
Why do voltsticks light up when you wave them about quickly?
Dunno.
Post by The Medway Handyman
Or is my voltstick didgy?
Has it got holes and can you play a tune on it?
--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
2008-03-11 20:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grimly Curmudgeon
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "The Medway Handyman"
Post by The Medway Handyman
Why do voltsticks light up when you wave them about quickly?
Dunno.
Post by The Medway Handyman
Or is my voltstick didgy?
Has it got holes and can you play a tune on it?
It do :-)
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257
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