Lubrication properties - Jet A1 versus white diesel

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet A1
fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?

I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative. The
suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to make up
for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

[wasbit]

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq
Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet A1
fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?
I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative. The
suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to make up
for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Post by wasbit
Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Heating oil is kerosene, as is also basically is Jet A1. Jet A1, is a
fuel for aircraft jet engines, a slightly tweaked kerosene.

I've been struggling to find red diesel at the pumps at all, heating oil
they try to charge more than the cost of white diesel for, in small
quantities, though in bulk, it's only 60p per litre. I also have to
drive a long way to collect it, making it not my while.

The Jet A1, I can buy for 94p, reasonably locally, without any fuss.
There are suggestions, that the lubricity of Jet A1, might not be
adequate, compared to diesel, so I'm asking..

I am already using it, neat, and it burns absolutely fine.

[GB]

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq

Post by wasbit
Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Heating oil is kerosene, as is also basically is Jet A1. Jet A1, is a
fuel for aircraft jet engines, a slightly tweaked kerosene.
I've been struggling to find red diesel at the pumps at all, heating oil
they try to charge more than the cost of white diesel for, in small
quantities, though in bulk, it's only 60p per litre. I also have to
drive a long way to collect it, making it not my while.
The Jet A1, I can buy for 94p, reasonably locally, without any fuss.
There are suggestions, that the lubricity of Jet A1, might not be
adequate, compared to diesel, so I'm asking..
I am already using it, neat, and it burns absolutely fine.

Could you throw some used cooking oil in?

[Paul]

Post by wasbit
Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Heating oil is kerosene, as is also basically is Jet A1. Jet A1, is a fuel for aircraft jet engines, a slightly tweaked kerosene.
I've been struggling to find red diesel at the pumps at all, heating oil they try to charge more than the cost of white diesel for, in small quantities, though in bulk, it's only 60p per litre. I also have to drive a long way to collect it, making it not my while.
The Jet A1, I can buy for 94p, reasonably locally, without any fuss. There are suggestions, that the lubricity of Jet A1, might not be adequate, compared to diesel, so I'm asking..
I am already using it, neat, and it burns absolutely fine.

Diesel heater combustion chamber.

Example of original heaters.

See page 28 - diesel heater, bio-diesel heater, and petrol, are different products

https://www.butlertechnik.com/downloads/cms/7292/eberspacher-espar-airtronic-d2-diesel-heater-technical-manual.pdf

Dosing pump is a piston pump (solenoid).
"Tick sound" working correctly.
"Whomp sound", grossly wrong.

The power consumption, suggests the glow plug
isn't on constantly. No idea how it senses the
flame is out.

Paul

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Paul

Post by wasbit
Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Heating oil is kerosene, as is also basically is Jet A1. Jet A1, is a fuel for aircraft jet engines, a slightly tweaked kerosene.
I've been struggling to find red diesel at the pumps at all, heating oil they try to charge more than the cost of white diesel for, in small quantities, though in bulk, it's only 60p per litre. I also have to drive a long way to collect it, making it not my while.
The Jet A1, I can buy for 94p, reasonably locally, without any fuss. There are suggestions, that the lubricity of Jet A1, might not be adequate, compared to diesel, so I'm asking..
I am already using it, neat, and it burns absolutely fine.

Diesel heater combustion chamber.
http://youtu.be/QFrWCa7tfM4
Example of original heaters.
See page 28 - diesel heater, bio-diesel heater, and petrol, are different products
https://www.butlertechnik.com/downloads/cms/7292/eberspacher-espar-airtronic-d2-diesel-heater-technical-manual.pdf
Dosing pump is a piston pump (solenoid).
"Tick sound" working correctly.
"Whomp sound", grossly wrong.
http://youtu.be/TGFDFZ6r1dI
The power consumption, suggests the glow plug
isn't on constantly. No idea how it senses the
flame is out.

would expect there to be a flame sensor or thermistor somewhere.

Post by Paul
Paul

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Post by Paul
http://youtu.be/TGFDFZ6r1dI

The glow pin, is surrounded by a fine mesh, onto which the fuel flows,
which gets the burn started. Flame is detected, by checking the
unpowered resistance of the pin, combined with a thermistor on the outer
case. Combustion air, is blown into the burn chamber. Rate of burn, is
controlled by a combination of varying the speed of the blower, plus the
dosing pump tick speed.

[wasbit]

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq

Post by wasbit
Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Heating oil is kerosene, as is also basically is Jet A1. Jet A1, is a
fuel for aircraft jet engines, a slightly tweaked kerosene.
I've been struggling to find red diesel at the pumps at all, heating oil
they try to charge more than the cost of white diesel for, in small
quantities, though in bulk, it's only 60p per litre. I also have to
drive a long way to collect it, making it not my while.
The Jet A1, I can buy for 94p, reasonably locally, without any fuss.
There are suggestions, that the lubricity of Jet A1, might not be
adequate, compared to diesel, so I'm asking..
I am already using it, neat, and it burns absolutely fine.

A new pump is £10 or less & it's simple to replace. Might be cheaper to
replace the pump every couple of years.

[Andy Burns]

Post by wasbit
A new pump is £10 or less & it's simple to replace. Might be cheaper to
replace the pump every couple of years.

And presumably pumps on diesel heaters are a *long* way from pumps on
60,000 psi common rail engines?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by wasbit
A new pump is £10 or less & it's simple to replace. Might be cheaper
to replace the pump every couple of years.

And presumably pumps on diesel heaters are a *long* way from pumps on
60,000 psi common rail engines?

I would definitely think so LOL!

Lifting pump in a car is around £70. High pressure pump more like £400

[crn]

Post by wasbit

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq
Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet A1
fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?
I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative. The
suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to make
up for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Kerosene

[The Nomad]

Post by crn

Post by wasbit

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq
Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet
A1 fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?
I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative.
The suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to
make up for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Kerosene

It is true, Jet A1 has less lubricity than DERV oil.

see <https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/2-1-jet-a-and-lubricity.
62678/> about 2/3 down post by milehog

Also <https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/jet-a-in-diesel-gensets-
what-lube-to-add.58021/>

<https://multisolgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/COVID19-impacts-
diesel-fuels-1.pdf>

However the low pressures involved in a diesel heater pump will likely not
cause problems (& they are cheap to replace), however not in your car.

HTH.

Avpx

[Theo]

Post by The Nomad
However the low pressures involved in a diesel heater pump will likely not
cause problems (& they are cheap to replace), however not in your car.

The fuel pumps in aircraft are obviously ok with Jet A1 without having to
mix oil. So it probably depends on the pump design.

Maybe the ones in heaters are generic and designed to pump kero or diesel?
It doesn't sound like a demanding application and if I were a heater
manufacturer I'd not want to stock two pumps for the different fuels.

Theo

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by crn

Post by wasbit

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq
Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet A1
fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?
I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative. The
suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to make
up for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

Don't know but the normal recommended replacement for diesel is heating oil.
Presume you have a cheap or free source of Jet A1, whatever that is.

Kerosene

Paraffin, kerosene, heating oil, jet fuel and diesel are all very very
similar in makeup.

The differ a little in viscosity and impurity content. And have
different additives to adapt them for the purpose.

Sometimes the words are used interchangeably. Sometimes the actual
fuels are. A central heating boiler will burn just about all of the above.

A diesel will run on most of the above BUT not necessarily for a long
time. Or in all weathers.

[mm0fmf]

BUT not necessarily for a long time.

Especially high pressure direct injection engines with their extreme
injection pressure where the fuel has to lubricate the pump.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by mm0fmf

BUT not necessarily for a long time.

Especially high pressure direct injection engines with their extreme
injection pressure where the fuel has to lubricate the pump.

Yes. Also some fuels will attack lower pressure rubber seals

[Tim+]

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq
Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet A1
fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?
I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative. The
suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to make up
for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

If it were me I’d just “suck it and see”. The pumps look to be cheap to
replace if necessary and having to remember to add extra lubricant would be
a bit of a faff.

If the first pump goes tits up in short order then sure, add extra
lubricant.

Tim

[Theo]

Post by Tim+

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq
Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet A1
fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?
I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative. The
suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to make up
for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

If it were me I’d just “suck it and see”. The pumps look to be cheap to
replace if necessary and having to remember to add extra lubricant would be
a bit of a faff.
If the first pump goes tits up in short order then sure, add extra
lubricant.

+1

A replacement pump is probably going to cost less than oil in every tank.

Given that a usable electric pump for pumping kero can be had for £5.99 (see
other thread) I don't think there's anything particularly complicated or
precision in the pumps. It's not an engine injector pump.

Theo

[wasbit]

Post by Theo

Post by Tim+

Post by Harry Bloomfield Esq
Is anyone able to compare the lubrication properties, please, of Jet A1
fuel, versus normal, white, road diesel?
I'm using the Jet A1, in a diesel heater, as a cheaper alternative. The
suggestion is, that it needs to have oil added to the Jet A1, to make up
for the lack of lubricity, for the dosing pump.

If it were me I’d just “suck it and see”. The pumps look to be cheap to
replace if necessary and having to remember to add extra lubricant would be
a bit of a faff.
If the first pump goes tits up in short order then sure, add extra
lubricant.

+1
A replacement pump is probably going to cost less than oil in every tank.
Given that a usable electric pump for pumping kero can be had for £5.99 (see
other thread) I don't think there's anything particularly complicated or
precision in the pumps. It's not an engine injector pump.

That's what I said (only in fewer words).