Discussion:
Are these acceptable today?
(too old to reply)
Peter Able
2024-09-06 17:50:47 UTC
Permalink
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry. The original is
linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around. There
is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable. I've replaced the terminal
strips with WAGOs. I've simplified the circuitry to remove the need for
the live-carrying Cu.

The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?

https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv

PA
John Rumm
2024-09-06 22:49:16 UTC
Permalink
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original is
linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.  There
is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the terminal
strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove the need for
the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...

Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered so
as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Andy Burns
2024-09-07 07:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  I've replaced
the
Post by John Rumm
terminal strips with WAGOs.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth
Just use extra Wagos?

They make Wago wiring centres for a neat central heating control box

<https://www.toolstation.com/wago-l60-wiring-centre/p87203>
Peter Able
2024-09-07 08:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  I've replaced
the
Post by John Rumm
terminal strips with WAGOs.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth
Just use extra Wagos?
They make Wago wiring centres for a neat central heating control box
<https://www.toolstation.com/wago-l60-wiring-centre/p87203>
Just looking for the cheapest solution, Andy.


PA
--
Peter Able
2024-09-07 08:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original is
linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered so
as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called. There were plenty in our last,
1930s house. There they were being used to connect up to three wires. I
can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.

Unused doesn't mean unpowered, John. For example one is one pole of the
local zone valve switch. In the simplified circuit there is no feedback
to the boiler from the zone valve. This released the bare copper wire's
function, which is now performing as an earth conductor. Incidentally
that 2+Cu's Cu was shielded with sleeving by the original installer.
"Good Idea", I guess he said to himself. "After all it can be at 240v
when the boiler is in use".

Good idea - except the sleeving he chose was green/yellow !!!

PA
brian
2024-09-07 11:04:14 UTC
Permalink
In message <vbh62r$1acqo$***@dont-email.me>, Peter Able <***@home.com>
writes
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered
so as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called. There were plenty in our last,
1930s house. There they were being used to connect up to three wires.
I can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
The ancient ones were ceramic.

I've a friend who refers to these things bandaged up with old cloth
insulating tape as "Mummies" .

Brian
--
Brian Howie
charles
2024-09-07 13:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by brian
writes
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Rumm
Post by Peter Able
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry. The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable. I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs. I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered
so as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called. There were plenty in our last,
1930s house. There they were being used to connect up to three wires.
I can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
The ancient ones were ceramic.
I've a friend who refers to these things bandaged up with old cloth
insulating tape as "Mummies" .
Brian
I've still got a few. "Screwits" is the name I learned. Worked well in the
3/.029 and 7/.029, etc days, but not with the single conductor metric cable.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2024-09-07 15:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by brian
writes
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
 Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered
so  as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called.  There were plenty in our last,
1930s house.  There they were being used to connect up to three wires.
I can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
The ancient ones were ceramic.
I had a failed motorised valve. The wiring to the motor was by ceramic
wire nuts . It failed.

I soldered it together and put heat shrink on. Its still going
Post by brian
I've a friend who refers to these things bandaged up with old cloth
insulating tape as "Mummies" .
Brian
--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson
Peter Able
2024-09-07 14:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by brian
writes
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped
around. There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've
replaced the terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the
circuitry to remove the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used
as terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
 Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however
covered so  as to prevent random contact is certainly better than
being left flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called.  There were plenty in our last,
1930s house.  There they were being used to connect up to three
wires. I can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
The ancient ones were ceramic.
I had a failed motorised valve. The wiring to the motor was by ceramic
wire nuts . It failed.
I soldered it together and put heat shrink on. Its still going
Ah, you've jogged my memory. Yes, they were plastic in the valve motor
that stopped. They were plastic - and seriously warped. No spiral
spring inside them, either. Even in my 4p ones there is a spring!

PA
Peter Able
2024-09-07 14:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by brian
writes
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
 Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered
so  as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called.  There were plenty in our last,
1930s house.  There they were being used to connect up to three wires.
I can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
The ancient ones were ceramic.
I've a friend who refers to these things bandaged up with old cloth
insulating tape as "Mummies" .
Brian
Yes, grimy white ceramic. Very suspect in terms of the long-term
stability of the joint.

I'd still worry about them for jointing - although the 4p ones I've used
are all fitted with a prominent spiral spring which really holds on when
the wire is tugged - and I'm only using them as single-wire caps.

PA
Tim Streater
2024-09-07 16:56:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Rumm
Post by Peter Able
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry. The original is
linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable. I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs. I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered so
as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called. There were plenty in our last,
1930s house. There they were being used to connect up to three wires. I
can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
These things?

<https://www.amazon.co.uk/woshilaoDS-Electrical-Connectors-Terminals-Connection/dp/B0BXCNND9Y/>

My house in the US used these, or something very similar. But then it had
knob-and-tube wiring and those polarised two-pin US sockets.
--
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett
Paul
2024-09-07 18:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Peter Able
Post by John Rumm
Post by Peter Able
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry. The original is
linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable. I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs. I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered so
as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called. There were plenty in our last,
1930s house. There they were being used to connect up to three wires. I
can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
These things?
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/woshilaoDS-Electrical-Connectors-Terminals-Connection/dp/B0BXCNND9Y/>
My house in the US used these, or something very similar. But then it had
knob-and-tube wiring and those polarised two-pin US sockets.
Yes, those are "wire nuts", an alternate name here is "marettes" (local term).

There is a table of wire capacities for each colour. You *must* select the
correct item and not put "small" wires in a "big" wire nut -- the wires will
fall out! The wire is stranded. The strands must be twisted in the correct
direction. Then, when the wire nut is rotated onto the ends of (say) three wires,
the wires are jammed together, and the stranded you twisted up to make it compact,
stays compact. You can practice your craft, then unscrew the nut and see what a
mess is inside. Adjust initial conditions, until you get good at it.

When the wire nut is fully seated, the copper strands are under compression
inside the metal spring part of the nut. There is a conical metal spring
inside the plastic (insulated outer) wire nut.

Three of those right now, hold my carriage lamp controller to the
mains wire from the house, inside the carriage pole. They sit there
for years, without a problem, exposed to humid summer air. And the
frigid cold of winter. Never seen any "conductivity" problems.
The only part of the thing that doesn't work well, is the relay
they used on the controller PCB, the contacts tend to weld shut
(leaving the lamp on). This only happens after a power failure.
so there's some kind of transient doing that. Nothing to do with the
wire nuts. They can be used in spaces, where small boxes would not fit.

They are only available up to a certain size, and the gauge of two
wires stuffed into the big one, defines the ampacity they are comfortable
providing. Presumably at some point, carrying enough amps through
a scheme like this, would not be a good idea. But for illumination
wiring, they're sufficient.

These have been on the market for decades, and if there was a concern
about failure modes, they would have been removed from the market.

You don't use those, if you have room for any kind of box. My central
air is fastened with a box, from one wire set to another. I would not
put the biggest wire nut on those wires, and sleep nights. That's what
boxes are for.

Even screw-down fixtures are dangerous. Thermal walkout can
reverse a screw and allow a wire to come loose. Solid wires
should at least be shaped, so they stay put even when the
screw walks out.

And anything involving compression, the spring constant can degrade
with time, which is why the spring seems "stiffer" than is really
necessary. That covers aging.

A typical usage of wire nuts, might be in the base of a pole
lamp, where the cord to the lamp (secured inside the base by
an Electricians Knot) is fastened to wire coming down the pole
from the light socket. Cut the wires to different lengths, such
that the wire nuts aren't right across from one another, and the
ends can be fastened with wire nuts. Then, the wire "stuffed" into
the base area and the plate affixed or whatever.

As another example, I have one of these fastened to a wooden base for
use in the house (as a worklight). With those, when you open the base,
each lamp socket offers two unterminated wires. There is just enough
room inside the base of that thing, for two blue wire nuts and fastening
to a third (incoming) pair. The incoming pair is secured with an
Electricians Knot (as we were taught in "shop class" in grade school).
This is back when schools accidentally taught useful things.

https://www.amazon.com/Bulbmaster-Light-Outdoor-Security-Fixture/dp/B09LCQK854

Paul
Peter Able
2024-09-07 17:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
These things?
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/woshilaoDS-Electrical-Connectors-Terminals-Connection/dp/B0BXCNND9Y/>
Yep. I got them (40 pieces) on TEMU. Good quality it seems and for less
than the newly-announced price of a UK 1st Class Stamp.

Crazy World,

PA
John Rumm
2024-09-07 23:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
Wire nuts? Never really been favoured in the UK...
Ideally unused wired should be terminated to earth - however covered
so as to prevent random contact is certainly better than being left
flapping about, if not actually earthed.
Ah, so that is what they are called.  There were plenty in our last,
1930s house.  There they were being used to connect up to three wires. I
can't think that was a good idea - even a hundred years ago.
Unused doesn't mean unpowered, John.  For example one is one pole of the
local zone valve switch.  In the simplified circuit there is no feedback
to the boiler from the zone valve.
In which case it should just be terminated, so that it can't come into
contact with anything else.
This released the bare copper wire's
function, which is now performing as an earth conductor.  Incidentally
that 2+Cu's Cu was shielded with sleeving by the original installer.
"Good Idea", I guess he said to himself. "After all it can be at 240v
when the boiler is in use".
Good idea - except the sleeving he chose was green/yellow !!!
Yup not good.

(Contrary to popular belief, you can oversleeve a CPC/Earth wire in a
cable and use it for another purpose (note, it must be a earth in a
cable, you can't oversleeve an earth wire where it is wired in singles)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
alan_m
2024-09-07 00:00:15 UTC
Permalink
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original is
linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.  There
is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the terminal
strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove the need for
the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Peter Able
2024-09-07 07:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original is
linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.

PA
wasbit
2024-09-07 08:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.
Cheapest solution is a back box & terminal strip.
--
Regards
wasbit
Peter Able
2024-09-07 08:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by wasbit
Post by Peter Able
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.
Cheapest solution is a back box & terminal strip.
I doubt it. My cost was 4p per terminated wire.
--
PA
--
GB
2024-09-07 11:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
I doubt it. My cost was 4p per terminated wire.
Would those nuts grip a single strand of wire?
Tricky Dicky
2024-09-07 12:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Peter Able
I doubt it. My cost was 4p per terminated wire.
Would those nuts grip a single strand of wire?
My thought as well.
Peter Able
2024-09-07 14:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by GB
Post by Peter Able
I doubt it. My cost was 4p per terminated wire.
Would those nuts grip a single strand of wire?
My thought as well.
Well, both of you, it depends upon what you mean by "single strand"...

But, whatever, some of us are bright enough to bend over the "strand" so
that it lies alongside the wire's insulation - if necessary more than
once - and use the appropriate "wire nut" size.

That's what some of us would do!

PA
Paul
2024-09-07 19:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by GB
Post by Peter Able
I doubt it. My cost was 4p per terminated wire.
Would those nuts grip a single strand of wire?
My thought as well.
Well, both of you, it depends upon what you mean by "single strand"...
But, whatever, some of us are bright enough to bend over the "strand" so that it lies alongside the wire's insulation - if necessary more than once - and use the appropriate "wire nut" size.
That's what some of us would do!
PA
Check the *table* for wire nuts, and see :-)

There is a table of allowed combinations. The table
has information like this. You *must* select an entry
from the table, so that the wire nut grabs the ends
properly and stays affixed.

(3) 22 gauge stranded \
(2) 18 gauge stranded \___ Imaginary table entry for a red nut.
(1) 16 gauge stranded plus (1) 20 gauge stranded / Three combinations allowed.

Doing stoopid stuff, like taking a really small wire,
and attempting to fit the largest wire nut available
on the end, that won't even engage and will fall off
in your hand.

As long as your "wire combination" is in the table, it works.

No "one wire" entries in this table... You would then
start with the smallest one (maybe a gray) and see if it
bites properly for your safety. While you can eyeball them,
to get in the approximate colour range, it's really best to
vet them using the table (if you can find a good table).
I've seen better tables than this.

https://www.idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/TwistOn/WingNut/WireConnector%20WireRange%20Chart.pdf

https://www.tnr.co.uk/how-to-make-live-electrical-wires-safe/

Using Wire Nuts

You can terminate single wires using wire nuts...

But remember, that a wire nut works by compression,
and having two overlapping stranded wires, and compressing
the shit out of them, is more secure than one (more uniform)
stranded jammed into the spring cone. Don't expect it to have
quite the same grip when doing one wire. Test it with a
tug, to satisfy yourself of your excellent workmanship.

If you attempt to screw a gray, onto a really fat wire,
it might not even start to screw down onto the wire end.
Just eyeballing them, should avoid the embarrassment of
attempting that. But once you get close to the right
colour, one of them will definitely grip better than
your other (eye-balled) choices. What I'm saying is,
you cannot eyeball and always get the exact right colour
on the first try. You might find two or three are close,
but one of them fits better than the other two.

And you don't really want the wire nuts to be "wide range".
It's OK for them to have closer limits on what wires they
will carry, because that makes them more secure. If the
cone was wide and shallow, it might only be holding the
wires via one thread, instead of two thread edges.

If you've never used these before, this is why you experiment
with them first, cut off a few hunks of wire from your
wire roll, twist the strands the right way, and *make sure*
you're making a proper job of it. This is not material for
stoopid people. I don't want to open a box and have one
of those fall on my head, because you used the wrong one :-)

Put one together, take it apart, see what damage it did,
improve your technique, and after a bit, you'll get the
hang of it.

That's why some of the bigger product cards, come with a table on the back.
There are assortment packs. Assortment of small ones in one pack.
Assortment of large ones in a second pack. Maybe the purchase
of two packs, gives you samples of everything.

Don't over-form the ends. Each stranded wire should be
twisted to compact form. You don't need to mash the damn
things together with your fingers, before screwing the
wire nut on. Gently form the wires enough, so they will
fit within the cone and the threads will pick them up.
The idea is, you're trying to not snap off the strands
of the stranded wires, by over-handling them. Each stranded
wire is twisted to compact form for its protection.
(One direction of twist, is the same direction of twist
as the cone is using.) And if you're doing three wires,
you might twist the ends of the three compact-stranded,
just enough so they fit into the cone.

After you try a few, you might notice that some of your
attempts are really biting nice.

If you mix solid and stranded wires under a wire nut,
that's a situation where you should experiment again,
and see for yourself what the retention force is like
when you do that. The solid wire does not compress.
The solid wire is a bit slippery. Hmmm. Is this a good idea ?
You decide.

Similarly, don't screw a wire nut onto a *soldered* stranded wire.
That's not going to compress all that well. Solder is
generally a bad idea in mains circuits anyway, carrying any
amount of current. If the thing happens to get hot enough
to melt the solder later, now you're in trouble... with
the fire insurance company. They will use any excuse
to deny a claim. Crimping and compression and screws are better.
Sometimes with crimping, the gadget has two pressure areas,
for redundancy.

Paul
alan_m
2024-09-08 06:29:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Doing stoopid stuff,
Big snip.

So, what you are saying is that they can be unreliable. Probably why we
don't see them in the UK.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Peter Able
2024-09-08 10:51:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by alan_m
Post by Paul
Doing stoopid stuff,
Big snip.
So, what you are saying is that they can be unreliable. Probably why we
don't see them in the UK.
Which really summarises replies to my original question "are [wire nuts]
acceptable today?" - as -

For connections: "No - go WAGO".

For capping off: "OK - but use the fold-back technique and make sure you
are using tight-fit nuts with an internal spiral, preferably metal,
grip. Once completed, test the finished capping with a good tug".

Thanks, all,

PA
Andy Burns
2024-09-08 11:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
For capping off: "OK - but use the fold-back technique and make sure you
are using tight-fit nuts with an internal spiral, preferably metal,
grip.  Once completed, test the finished capping with a good tug".
Seems to me, it's only you convincing yourself of that, everyone else
would probably say "also use Wagos"
Peter Able
2024-09-08 12:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Peter Able
For capping off: "OK - but use the fold-back technique and make sure
you are using tight-fit nuts with an internal spiral, preferably
metal, grip.  Once completed, test the finished capping with a good tug".
Seems to me, it's only you convincing yourself of that, everyone else
would probably say "also use Wagos"
Not in answer to my original and well-defined question, Andy ;-}
--
PA
--
The Natural Philosopher
2024-09-08 13:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Peter Able
For capping off: "OK - but use the fold-back technique and make sure
you are using tight-fit nuts with an internal spiral, preferably
metal, grip.  Once completed, test the finished capping with a good tug".
Seems to me, it's only you convincing yourself of that, everyone else
would probably say "also use Wagos"
Never used a Wago yet. Probably not room inside a motorised valve...
--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.
Peter Able
2024-09-13 09:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Peter Able
For capping off: "OK - but use the fold-back technique and make sure
you are using tight-fit nuts with an internal spiral, preferably
metal, grip.  Once completed, test the finished capping with a good tug".
Seems to me, it's only you convincing yourself of that, everyone else
would probably say "also use Wagos"
Ended up with heat-shrink, Andy.
--
PA
--
The Natural Philosopher
2024-09-08 13:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by alan_m
Post by Paul
Doing stoopid stuff,
Big snip.
So, what you are saying is that they can be unreliable. Probably why we
don't see them in the UK.
Only time I did see them was *because* they were unreliable..!!!

Horrid things.

Far rather use a soldering iron. Any joint that isnt subject to flexing
can be soldered, and even if it is, shoving some think heat shrink on
top to stiffen it, or adding hot snot or a zip tie to tie it down, is
massively OK.
--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.
jon
2024-09-08 15:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by alan_m
Post by Paul
Doing stoopid stuff,
Big snip.
So, what you are saying is that they can be unreliable. Probably why we
don't see them in the UK.
Only time I did see them was *because* they were unreliable..!!!
Horrid things.
Far rather use a soldering iron. Any joint that isnt subject to flexing
can be soldered, and even if it is, shoving some think heat shrink on
top to stiffen it, or adding hot snot or a zip tie to tie it down, is
massively OK.
Or in line insulated crimps.
Peter Able
2024-09-08 10:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Peter Able
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by GB
Post by Peter Able
I doubt it. My cost was 4p per terminated wire.
Would those nuts grip a single strand of wire?
My thought as well.
Well, both of you, it depends upon what you mean by "single strand"...
But, whatever, some of us are bright enough to bend over the "strand" so that it lies alongside the wire's insulation - if necessary more than once - and use the appropriate "wire nut" size.
That's what some of us would do!
PA
Check the *table* for wire nuts, and see :-)
There is a table of allowed combinations. The table
has information like this. You *must* select an entry
from the table, so that the wire nut grabs the ends
properly and stays affixed.
(3) 22 gauge stranded \
(2) 18 gauge stranded \___ Imaginary table entry for a red nut.
(1) 16 gauge stranded plus (1) 20 gauge stranded / Three combinations allowed.
Doing stoopid stuff, like taking a really small wire,
and attempting to fit the largest wire nut available
on the end, that won't even engage and will fall off
in your hand.
As long as your "wire combination" is in the table, it works.
No "one wire" entries in this table... You would then
start with the smallest one (maybe a gray) and see if it
bites properly for your safety. While you can eyeball them,
to get in the approximate colour range, it's really best to
vet them using the table (if you can find a good table).
I've seen better tables than this.
https://www.idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/TwistOn/WingNut/WireConnector%20WireRange%20Chart.pdf
https://www.tnr.co.uk/how-to-make-live-electrical-wires-safe/
Using Wire Nuts
You can terminate single wires using wire nuts...
But remember, that a wire nut works by compression,
and having two overlapping stranded wires, and compressing
the shit out of them, is more secure than one (more uniform)
stranded jammed into the spring cone. Don't expect it to have
quite the same grip when doing one wire. Test it with a
tug, to satisfy yourself of your excellent workmanship.
If you attempt to screw a gray, onto a really fat wire,
it might not even start to screw down onto the wire end.
Just eyeballing them, should avoid the embarrassment of
attempting that. But once you get close to the right
colour, one of them will definitely grip better than
your other (eye-balled) choices. What I'm saying is,
you cannot eyeball and always get the exact right colour
on the first try. You might find two or three are close,
but one of them fits better than the other two.
And you don't really want the wire nuts to be "wide range".
It's OK for them to have closer limits on what wires they
will carry, because that makes them more secure. If the
cone was wide and shallow, it might only be holding the
wires via one thread, instead of two thread edges.
If you've never used these before, this is why you experiment
with them first, cut off a few hunks of wire from your
wire roll, twist the strands the right way, and *make sure*
you're making a proper job of it. This is not material for
stoopid people. I don't want to open a box and have one
of those fall on my head, because you used the wrong one :-)
Put one together, take it apart, see what damage it did,
improve your technique, and after a bit, you'll get the
hang of it.
That's why some of the bigger product cards, come with a table on the back.
There are assortment packs. Assortment of small ones in one pack.
Assortment of large ones in a second pack. Maybe the purchase
of two packs, gives you samples of everything.
Don't over-form the ends. Each stranded wire should be
twisted to compact form. You don't need to mash the damn
things together with your fingers, before screwing the
wire nut on. Gently form the wires enough, so they will
fit within the cone and the threads will pick them up.
The idea is, you're trying to not snap off the strands
of the stranded wires, by over-handling them. Each stranded
wire is twisted to compact form for its protection.
(One direction of twist, is the same direction of twist
as the cone is using.) And if you're doing three wires,
you might twist the ends of the three compact-stranded,
just enough so they fit into the cone.
After you try a few, you might notice that some of your
attempts are really biting nice.
If you mix solid and stranded wires under a wire nut,
that's a situation where you should experiment again,
and see for yourself what the retention force is like
when you do that. The solid wire does not compress.
The solid wire is a bit slippery. Hmmm. Is this a good idea ?
You decide.
*Similarly, don't screw a wire nut onto a *soldered* stranded wire.
That's not going to compress all that well. Solder is
generally a bad idea in mains circuits anyway, carrying any
amount of current. If the thing happens to get hot enough
to melt the solder later, now you're in trouble... with
the fire insurance company. They will use any excuse
to deny a claim. Crimping and compression and screws are better.
Sometimes with crimping, the gadget has two pressure areas,
for redundancy.*
Paul
I reckon that I'm compliant, Paul, but I would reject the final
paragraph. The "grip" can be of the conductor and/or of the wire's
insulation. If anything it is better to grip the insulation My
"fold-back" technique belt-and-braces the job. The exposed conductor is
well inside the nut and the whole resists a firm tug.
--
PA
--
Andrew
2024-09-08 15:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.
PA
solder plus heatshrink, though there are modern tubes
that you shove both ends of a stripped cable into then
heat to both solder and heatshrink in one go.
The Natural Philosopher
2024-09-08 15:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Peter Able
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.
PA
solder plus heatshrink, though there are modern tubes
that you shove both ends of a stripped cable into then
heat to both solder and heatshrink in one go.
Indeed.

Good for car mechanics who dont know any better
--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
Peter Able
2024-09-10 08:28:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Peter Able
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped around.
There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've replaced the
terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the circuitry to remove
the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used as
terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.
PA
solder plus heatshrink, though there are modern tubes
that you shove both ends of a stripped cable into then
heat to both solder and heatshrink in one go.
Good post, Andrew. Guess what the other item in the order for the wire
nuts was ;<}

500+ 5cm lengths of various sizes of heatshrink. Delivered for less
than the price of a litre of petrol! Plus instructions - in French only

I thought that the wire nuts looked more professional - but wanted to
check with experts in current regulations as to whether wire nuts are
barred. Suppose I should also have asked the same question of
heatshrink. (Any Expert opinions?)

Cheers, PA
The Natural Philosopher
2024-09-10 10:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Peter Able
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The original
is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely wrapped
around. There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.  I've
replaced the terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the
circuitry to remove the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used
as terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.
PA
solder plus heatshrink, though there are modern tubes
that you shove both ends of a stripped cable into then
heat to both solder and heatshrink in one go.
Good post, Andrew.  Guess what the other item in the order for the wire
nuts was ;<}
500+  5cm lengths of various sizes of heatshrink.  Delivered for less
than the price of a litre of petrol!  Plus instructions - in French only
I thought that the wire nuts looked more professional - but wanted to
check with experts in current regulations as to whether wire nuts are
barred.  Suppose I should also have asked the same question of
heatshrink.  (Any Expert opinions?)
Cheers, PA
Heatshrink and solder is a bit weird because 'electricians' aren't
supposed to know how to solder etc.

You will not that all house wiring is screw, crimp or punchdown of one
sort or another, as are all car connectors.

The fact is that solder/heatshrink done properly is as good as it gets
for solid wires, and if well supported, for stranded wires too.

The only downside is that it makes stranded wires brittle

So you need extra support in a high vibration environment. And I think
that is is not allowed in aircraft harnesses for that reason (but I
could be wrong)

My apprenticeship was in avionics, and there were very strict rules
about unsupported soldered wires. E.g. None allowed
--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
..I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)
Peter Able
2024-09-10 13:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andrew
Post by Peter Able
Post by alan_m
I'm updating my central heating electrical circuitry.  The
original is linked up using terminal strips with tape crudely
wrapped around. There is three-wire powering using 2+Cu cable.
I've replaced the terminal strips with WAGOs.  I've simplified the
circuitry to remove the need for the live-carrying Cu.
The simplification has left spare wires unused. Can these be used
as terminators for those wires?
https://ibb.co/6sxqLtv
PA
Why not just terminate unused wires in wago connectors
Just looking for the cheapest solution.
PA
solder plus heatshrink, though there are modern tubes
that you shove both ends of a stripped cable into then
heat to both solder and heatshrink in one go.
Good post, Andrew.  Guess what the other item in the order for the
wire nuts was ;<}
500+  5cm lengths of various sizes of heatshrink.  Delivered for less
than the price of a litre of petrol!  Plus instructions - in French only
I thought that the wire nuts looked more professional - but wanted to
check with experts in current regulations as to whether wire nuts are
barred.  Suppose I should also have asked the same question of
heatshrink.  (Any Expert opinions?)
Cheers, PA
Heatshrink and solder is a bit weird because 'electricians' aren't
supposed to know how to solder etc.
You will not that all house wiring is screw, crimp or punchdown of one
sort or another, as are all car connectors.
The fact is that solder/heatshrink  done properly is as good as it gets
for solid wires, and if well supported, for stranded wires too.
The only downside is that it makes stranded wires brittle
So you need extra support in a high vibration environment.  And I think
that is is not allowed in aircraft harnesses for that reason (but I
could be wrong)
My apprenticeship was in avionics, and there were very strict rules
about unsupported soldered wires. E.g. None allowed
I was used to seeing heat-shrink at work and the quality there permitted
very high shrink ratios to be achieved. To be fair the stuff I received
only claimed (in French) to be 2:1. Which, with a match, was easily
achieved. The test object was a press-button with pins, soldered to a
multistranded twisted pair. 2cm of shrink over each soldered wire then
5cm extending from the switch, over the individual joints and well down
the twisted pair. Only time will tell!

I wonder if this 1987 house is typical of its time - and are things
better or worse today?

When we moved into it, in 1992, I found:

Bare copper being used for live wiring. Not all sleeved - and when
sleeved, using green/yellow sleeving. Jeez.

The master RCD with its sensor leads snipped. What?

A double lighting wall switch bodged to make it perform as a 2-way
switch. Works fine as long as you remember to flip both switch levers
in sync. Right.

An Oil Boiler which fired up like it was Concorde. "Professionally"
maintained, I reckon that the service engineer saw oil leaking from a
loose screw - which he fixed by fully tightening the screw. Of course
this screw was the oil regulator needle with a perished O-ring - hence
the Concorde effect! Hence the sooting up of the boiler exhaust and all
of the baffle plates! Fixed by slipping a short piece of Neoprene wire
sleeving onto the needle valve shaft - so right back on-topic. ;-)

A bizarrely over-complicated plumbing circuit. Radically improved using
impedance theory. Heating energy consumption down by ~40% over 20
years. Reliability up - no three-way valve any more.

And a bizarre Labgear TV distribution system. 24v AC, bridge rectifier,
then a 25v smoothing capacitor - well and truly cooked. It didn't
matter - until terrestrial TV went digital. Iesu mawr!

PA
Andy Burns
2024-09-10 14:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Able
I wonder if this 1987 house is typical of its time
Doesn't sound typical at all, houses which I've known the wiring of very
well, 20 years older are better than that.
Post by Peter Able
Bare copper being used for live wiring.  Not all sleeved
Presumably *not* knob & tube?
Peter Able
2024-09-10 14:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
knob & tube
Nothing so organised! I had to look that up.

More like a "Rat's Nest".

PA
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