Greenybollocks

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy87e72yg3o
The carbon footprint of a long-delayed new "green" ferry will be far
larger than the 31-year-old diesel ship that usually serves the route
between the Scottish mainland and the island of Arran.

It is somewhat larger. You need to scale the emissions up for the
smaller ferry or down for the larger ferry. Otherwise you are comparing
apples to grapefruit.

It's still a fuckton over budget and late though due to gerrymandering
politicians.

Andy Burns

2024-12-30 11:20:36 UTC

Post by mm0fmf

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy87e72yg3o

The carbon footprint of a long-delayed new "green" ferry will be far
larger than the 31-year-old diesel ship that usually serves the route
between the Scottish mainland and the island of Arran.

It is somewhat larger. You need to scale the emissions up for the
smaller ferry or down for the larger ferry. Otherwise you are comparing
apples to grapefruit.

Is it likely to make full use of the higher capacity?
I presume a half-empty ferry uses fuel at close to the same rate as a
full one?

Post by mm0fmf
It's still a fuckton over budget and late though due to gerrymandering
politicians.

mm0fmf

2024-12-30 12:27:41 UTC

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy87e72yg3o

The carbon footprint of a long-delayed new "green" ferry will be far
larger than the 31-year-old diesel ship that usually serves the route
between the Scottish mainland and the island of Arran.

It is somewhat larger. You need to scale the emissions up for the
smaller ferry or down for the larger ferry. Otherwise you are
comparing apples to grapefruit.

Is it likely to make full use of the higher capacity?
I presume a half-empty ferry uses fuel at close to the same rate as a
full one?

Post by mm0fmf
It's still a fuckton over budget and late though due to gerrymandering
politicians.

There will be a baseload of fuel needed to move the empty ferry about
and the fuel used increases with loading and the weather conditions
(sailing with full load into a strong wind and tide).

The issue about size is that cars always get bigger and the increase in
width means fewer cars fit on the old ferry. Capacity today of the old
ferry is about 80% of when it was launched because fewer cars fit on the
decks. The reduced capacity such that just one or two cancelled sailings
during the busy times can result in large amounts of traffic queueing
for a space. And having been to the islands outside of peak holiday
season, it can be somewhat hit or miss to get a space without a booking.
So the larger capacity is needed.

However, the point remains you need to ensure you compare like with like
or the comparison isn't valid.

fred

2025-01-02 22:36:27 UTC

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy87e72yg3o

The carbon footprint of a long-delayed new "green" ferry will be far
larger than the 31-year-old diesel ship that usually serves the route
between the Scottish mainland and the island of Arran.

It is somewhat larger. You need to scale the emissions up for the
smaller ferry or down for the larger ferry. Otherwise you are comparing
apples to grapefruit.

Is it likely to make full use of the higher capacity?
I presume a half-empty ferry uses fuel at close to the same rate as a
full one?

The Arran route is a busy one so I imagine they commissioned a greater
capacity vessel due to greater demand.

It's a vessel with a 41% increased capacity with only a 35% increse in
emissions so I fail to see the justification for the knee jerk negative
reaction from the o/p.

The Natural Philosopher

2025-01-03 11:14:12 UTC

Post by Jethro_uk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy87e72yg3o

The carbon footprint of a long-delayed new "green" ferry will be far
larger than the 31-year-old diesel ship that usually serves the route
between the Scottish mainland and the island of Arran.

It is somewhat larger. You need to scale the emissions up for the
smaller ferry or down for the larger ferry. Otherwise you are comparing
apples to grapefruit.

Is it likely to make full use of the higher capacity?
I presume a half-empty ferry uses fuel at close to the same rate as a
full one?

The Arran route is a busy one so I imagine they commissioned a greater
capacity vessel due to greater demand.
It's a vessel with a 41% increased capacity with only a 35% increse in
emissions so I fail to see the justification for the knee jerk negative
reaction from the o/p.

Golly. That will really save the planet wont it?

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

brian

2024-12-31 15:10:03 UTC

In message <vktuhk$1jgkl$***@dont-email.me>, mm0fmf <***@invalid.com>
writes

Post by mm0fmf

It is somewhat larger. You need to scale the emissions up for the
smaller ferry or down for the larger ferry. Otherwise you are comparing
apples to grapefruit.

It should have been run on peat. Several dozen cruachs would have been
enough per trip.

Post by mm0fmf
It's still a fuckton over budget and late though due to gerrymandering
politicians.

The best politicians can do is not make things worse than they already
are.

The latest delay was the noncompliant anchor . I heard to save weight,
it was made out of polythene.

Possibly they should have said b%%ger it and tried to refloat the old
Glen Sannox, I was sad to see this having done the Arran trip on it
countless times.

<https://www.facebook.com/shipsofcalmac/posts/a-photo-of-the-former-glen-
sannox-in-her-current-positionthanks-shirley-for-digg/363167653794550/>

On a worse note Hogmanay has been cancelled here in Edinburgh . I blame
the SNP, Brexit , Putin or whatever,

Slàinte mhòr

Brian

--
Brian Howie of that ilk

Jeff Gaines

2024-12-31 16:42:21 UTC

Post by brian
The best politicians can do is not make things worse than they already
are.

That should be the saying of 2025, it is so true and important.

Doctors have the Hippocratic oath with its "first do no harm" principle.

MPs could have the hypocritic oath "first do not make things worse than
they already are".

Happy New Year to all!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do or
say nothing. (Edmund Burke)

The Natural Philosopher

2024-12-30 11:11:59 UTC

Did you expect otherwise?

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

Chris Hogg

2024-12-30 15:01:33 UTC

On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.

Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

--
Chris

charles

2024-12-30 15:15:02 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

but it's in Scotland. There "nuclear" means 'bombs'.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Tim Streater

2024-12-30 16:02:51 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

but it's in Scotland. There "nuclear" means 'bombs'.

Well it was the Dearly Departed and Wee Krankie who were running the show, so,
business as usual.

--
"... you must remember that if you're trying to propagate a creed of poverty, gentleness and tolerance, you need a very rich, powerful, authoritarian organisation to do it." - Vice-Pope Eric

The Natural Philosopher

2024-12-30 17:12:41 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

+100

It will come, because it has to. But a sealed small reactor isn't here yet.
You only need a couple of MW.
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

Chris Hogg

2024-12-30 21:49:17 UTC

On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 17:12:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

+100
It will come, because it has to. But a sealed small reactor isn't here yet.
You only need a couple of MW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah .

--
Chris

The Natural Philosopher

2024-12-31 10:36:57 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 17:12:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

+100
It will come, because it has to. But a sealed small reactor isn't here yet.
You only need a couple of MW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah .

That is not so small.

Savanna and the US aircraft carriers are bigger ships than a ferry

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

Sam Plusnet

2025-01-05 19:09:58 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

With some lateral thinking they could have come up with a chain ferry -
leave the power source on land.

--
Sam Plusnet

charles

2025-01-05 20:15:02 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

With some lateral thinking they could have come up with a chain ferry -
leave the power source on land.

The Firth of Clyde is a major shipping route. A 25km chain could be quite a
hazard

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

nib

2025-01-05 20:48:39 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

With some lateral thinking they could have come up with a chain ferry -
leave the power source on land.

The Firth of Clyde is a major shipping route. A 25km chain could be quite a
hazard

Don't chain ferries usually still have the power on board, just pull
themselves along the chain?

Pulling the ferry across from the land side must be more difficult with
one side pulling in and the other paying out lots of wet cable or chain.

nib

Colin Macleod

2025-01-05 21:32:16 UTC

Post by nib
Don't chain ferries usually still have the power on board, just pull
themselves along the chain?
Pulling the ferry across from the land side must be more difficult with
one side pulling in and the other paying out lots of wet cable or chain.

And you would need twice as much cable/chain to do it that way :-/

--
Colin Macleod ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ https://cmacleod.me.uk

This Is The Way.
(or not, as the case may be...)

Marland

2025-01-05 22:10:33 UTC

Post by nib

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

With some lateral thinking they could have come up with a chain ferry -
leave the power source on land.

The Firth of Clyde is a major shipping route. A 25km chain could be quite a
hazard

Don't chain ferries usually still have the power on board, just pull
themselves along the chain?
Pulling the ferry across from the land side must be more difficult with
one side pulling in and the other paying out lots of wet cable or chain.
nib

And the chain / cable rises up from the sea or riverbed to the ferry and
drops down again after it as it pulls itself along so other vessels can
pass over the chain though not too closely.
NPs idea of having the power plant on shore and pulling the ferry would
see a taught line 25km long at its fullest extent . Thats a lot of drag
and weight to haul , what would 25km of chain strong enough to do that
weigh ? Possibly more than a ferry of a suitable size for the traffic to
support.

Chains that get wound around the shaft mechanism on the chain ferries
because of the environment of being in sea water and picking up material
from the sea bed wear out fairly quickly and one dragged onto land would be
pulled in the same environment so would likely wear as well.

The ones on the Sandbanks Ferry across the entrance to Poole Harbour need
replacing about every 18 months. at around £70.000 for a crossing around
1200 ft long, what would 25km cost?

GH

Fredxx

2025-01-06 15:09:14 UTC

Post by Marland

Post by nib

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

With some lateral thinking they could have come up with a chain ferry -
leave the power source on land.

The Firth of Clyde is a major shipping route. A 25km chain could be quite a
hazard

Don't chain ferries usually still have the power on board, just pull
themselves along the chain?
Pulling the ferry across from the land side must be more difficult with
one side pulling in and the other paying out lots of wet cable or chain.
nib

And the chain / cable rises up from the sea or riverbed to the ferry and
drops down again after it as it pulls itself along so other vessels can
pass over the chain though not too closely.
NPs idea of having the power plant on shore and pulling the ferry would
see a taught line 25km long at its fullest extent . Thats a lot of drag
and weight to haul , what would 25km of chain strong enough to do that
weigh ? Possibly more than a ferry of a suitable size for the traffic to
support.
Chains that get wound around the shaft mechanism on the chain ferries
because of the environment of being in sea water and picking up material
from the sea bed wear out fairly quickly and one dragged onto land would be
pulled in the same environment so would likely wear as well.
The ones on the Sandbanks Ferry across the entrance to Poole Harbour need
replacing about every 18 months. at around £70.000 for a crossing around
1200 ft long, what would 25km cost?

Perhaps a power cable could supply green power that rests on the sea
floor and connected to the boat would be a way forward? It would then
snake on the sea floor as the ferry goes to and from the mainland port.

A nuclear power plant would be the greenest solution, but hey!

Paul

2025-01-06 15:33:09 UTC

Post by Fredxx
A nuclear power plant would be the greenest solution, but hey!

The solution is right on the Internet.

https://www.marinelog.com/news/worlds-largest-battery-electric-vessel-is-set-for-2025-delivery/

"With more than 40 MWh of energy storage"

Would that cost something ? I expect it would :-)
That would be the reason it was not done. Cost.

Paul

Tim Streater

2025-01-06 21:25:40 UTC

Post by Paul

Post by Fredxx
A nuclear power plant would be the greenest solution, but hey!

The solution is right on the Internet.
https://www.marinelog.com/news/worlds-largest-battery-electric-vessel-is-set-for-2025-delivery/
"With more than 40 MWh of energy storage"
Would that cost something ? I expect it would :-)
That would be the reason it was not done. Cost.

Look up the cost/capacity of the Moss Landing facility in California, that's a
benchmark.

--
The EU Parliament. The only parliament in the world that can neither initiate nor repeal legislation.

Robert Kimbell

Marland

2025-01-06 19:47:16 UTC

Post by nib

Post by Chris Hogg
On Mon, 30 Dec 2024 11:11:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Did you expect otherwise?

It just goes to show that calculating the contribution to global
warming from all sources of emission (CO2, CH4, N2O, water vapour etc)
from mining the raw materials to scrapping and recycling them at their
end of life, is an almost impossible task. Results from such
calculations are quite meaningless.
Perhaps they should have powered it with a nuclear reactor as per a
nuclear submarine. That would really have given them something to
boast about.

With some lateral thinking they could have come up with a chain ferry -
leave the power source on land.

The Firth of Clyde is a major shipping route. A 25km chain could be quite a
hazard

Don't chain ferries usually still have the power on board, just pull
themselves along the chain?
Pulling the ferry across from the land side must be more difficult with
one side pulling in and the other paying out lots of wet cable or chain.
nib

And the chain / cable rises up from the sea or riverbed to the ferry and
drops down again after it as it pulls itself along so other vessels can
pass over the chain though not too closely.
NPs idea of having the power plant on shore and pulling the ferry would
see a taught line 25km long at its fullest extent . Thats a lot of drag
and weight to haul , what would 25km of chain strong enough to do that
weigh ? Possibly more than a ferry of a suitable size for the traffic to
support.
Chains that get wound around the shaft mechanism on the chain ferries
because of the environment of being in sea water and picking up material
from the sea bed wear out fairly quickly and one dragged onto land would be
pulled in the same environment so would likely wear as well.
The ones on the Sandbanks Ferry across the entrance to Poole Harbour need
replacing about every 18 months. at around £70.000 for a crossing around
1200 ft long, what would 25km cost?

Perhaps a power cable could supply green power that rests on the sea
floor and connected to the boat would be a way forward? It would then
snake on the sea floor as the ferry goes to and from the mainland port.
A nuclear power plant would be the greenest solution, but hey!

I did wonder if that was meant by the poster (who wasn’t NP, my
mistake,apologies).

I still think the cable to such a ferry would be vulnerable and wear
quickly. The powers that be would likely insist that it has some emergency
propulsion on board to stop it being stranded when the cable fails.

GH

Paul

2025-01-06 04:11:44 UTC