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GB
2025-04-25 17:22:30 UTC
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https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html


German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.

"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's
annual general meeting.
Andy Burns
2025-04-25 17:33:38 UTC
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Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate

<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Scott
2025-04-25 18:55:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
Andy Burns
2025-04-25 19:07:53 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 09:18:04 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
Indeed.
It is pure 'scorched earth' strategy. Some for my gravel drive would be
massively useful
--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"
Andrew
2025-04-26 17:53:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 18:02:22 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it was
sodium chlorate
--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell
Andrew
2025-04-26 18:40:33 UTC
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Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andrew
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ... supposedly
nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it was
sodium chlorate
Not for brambles ...

https://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/environmental/html/245t.htm
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 16:02:38 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andrew
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend" who
worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ...
supposedly nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it was
sodium chlorate
Not for brambles ...
https://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/environmental/html/245t.htm
Yes, for brambles

Very much for brambles.
Sodium chlorate kills EVERYTHING.

Look it up. And it persists a long time in the soil, too.
--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.
brian
2025-04-28 12:26:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andrew
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andrew
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend"
who worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ...
supposedly nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it
was sodium chlorate
Not for brambles ...
https://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/environmental/html/245t.htm
Yes, for brambles
Very much for brambles.
Sodium chlorate kills EVERYTHING.
Look it up. And it persists a long time in the soil, too.
I want some of that . On the other hand..

Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_trousers

Brian
--
Brian Howie
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-28 13:00:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by brian
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andrew
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Scott
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate?
Dunno, Dad told the tale of how he obtained some from "a friend"
who  worked on the railway, and used it on an aunt's garden ...
supposedly nothing grew there for years.
Are you sure it wasn't 'agent orange' ?. I believe BR was able to
use something related to it on ballast and lineside foliage for
years.
I always understood in the grand old days of British Rail that it
was sodium chlorate
 Not for brambles ...
 https://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/environmental/html/245t.htm
Yes, for brambles
Very much for brambles.
Sodium chlorate kills EVERYTHING.
Look it up. And it persists a long time in the soil, too.
I want some of that . On the other hand..
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_trousers
LOL.

Chlorate is not to be trifled with.

BUT you can get it by electrolysing a salt solution and filtering out
the 'copper chloride'

Look it up.
Or by boiling bleach.

If scorched earth is the aim, dont bother to filter...
Post by brian
Brian
--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat
Jeff Layman
2025-04-26 07:58:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
infringement of the law:
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
--
Jeff
Scott
2025-04-26 08:33:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Joe
2025-04-26 09:19:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...

"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."

There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
--
Joe
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 09:56:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
I think we can confidently expect 'small pox viruses have a right to
life, and should be re-wilded' soon enough
--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft
Tim Streater
2025-04-26 10:04:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
Actually, no. Not when it's Japanese knotweed. Never having heard of the plant
before, I caused one to be rotovated in a bed. I then read about it (this was
30 years ago), went "Oops!", dug up the root ball and burnt it, and spent 7
years spraying roundup on the shoots that appeared each spring. It took that
look to eradicate.
--
Bessie Braddock: "Winston, you are drunk!"
Churchill: "And you, madam, are ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning."
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 10:21:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
Actually, no. Not when it's Japanese knotweed. Never having heard of the plant
before, I caused one to be rotovated in a bed. I then read about it (this was
30 years ago), went "Oops!", dug up the root ball and burnt it, and spent 7
years spraying roundup on the shoots that appeared each spring. It took that
look to eradicate.
Yes. There was a patch that mysteriously appeared on a small triangle of
land between a drainage ditch, the road, and a farmers field.

He tried mowing it, but it was back a metre r tall every year, then he
started glyphosating it. He's an arable farmer and glyphosate is an
ideal way to kill he wheat so its all dried up at harvest time*. But I
digress.

I think it was at least 4 years before it all went.

*
https://ahdb.org.uk/knowledge-library/pre-harvest-glyphosate-best-practice-in-cereals

"In cereals, glyphosate applications can reduce green material,
including immature tillers, and improve harvest efficiency and grain
storage. This can be particularly valuable in wet seasons. Glyphosate
residues are occasionally found in samples. Although these residues have
been well below Maximum Residue Levels (MRLs), they require careful
management."

So much for banning glyphosate...
--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.
Sam Plusnet
2025-04-28 18:17:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
Actually, no. Not when it's Japanese knotweed. Never having heard of the plant
before, I caused one to be rotovated in a bed. I then read about it (this was
30 years ago), went "Oops!", dug up the root ball and burnt it, and spent 7
years spraying roundup on the shoots that appeared each spring. It took that
look to eradicate.
You just think you have eradicated it. It's just biding its time.
--
Sam Plusnet
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-29 11:06:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Actually, no. Not when it's Japanese knotweed. Never having heard of the plant
before, I caused one to be rotovated in a bed. I then read about it (this was
30 years ago), went "Oops!", dug up the root ball and burnt it, and spent 7
years spraying roundup on the shoots that appeared each spring. It took that
look to eradicate.
You just think you have eradicated it.  It's just biding its time.
Alien invasion...gone underground...
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
Roland Perry
2025-04-27 11:27:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
Hemlock reported today growing wild at a bus stop just up the road from
me.
--
Roland Perry
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 16:08:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
Hemlock reported today growing wild at a bus stop just up the road from me.
One popped up in my garden once.

Nasty stuff.
Giant hogweed is another curse.
--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken
brian
2025-04-29 09:56:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:33:08 +0100
Post by Scott
I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Yet...
"They're just plants that aren't in the place you want them to be.
They've got just as much right to live as your dahlias."
There are minor victories, but I don't think we've hit peak insanity
yet.
My dandelions self identify as flowers.

B
--
Brian Howie
Jeff Layman
2025-04-26 09:34:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.

As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
--
Jeff
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 10:02:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.

"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."

Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels
Tricky Dicky
2025-04-26 12:14:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 12:32:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx
Spike
2025-04-26 12:52:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
I know what it is!

I drank some when I was very young, I can still remember the taste and the
amount of honking up.
--
Spike
John R Walliker
2025-04-26 13:21:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
I know what it is!
I drank some when I was very young, I can still remember the taste and the
amount of honking up.
Yes.
hypernatremia and hyperchloremia combined with corrosive properties -
sodium hypochlorite, sold as bleach and Milton.
John
Sam Plusnet
2025-04-28 18:19:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spike
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
I know what it is!
I drank some when I was very young, I can still remember the taste and the
amount of honking up.
School milk?
--
Sam Plusnet
Spike
2025-04-28 21:56:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Spike
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by Scott
Post by Andy Burns
Post by GB
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it
could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market
Better value exists from generic glyphosate
<https://green-care.co.uk/product/gallup-hi-aktiv-490g-glyphosate-5ltr>
Is there any argument in for the return of sodium chlorate? Sodium
chlorate degrades to sodium chloride (salt), which is relatively
harmless. It is also more effective. I assume it is better for the
environment but worse for humans but we substituted propane and butane
(which are highly flammable) for CFCs in aerosols in the interests of
the environment.
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
Yes, but of course glyphosate is considered by some to be toxic and
harmful to the environment. My question was: on the scale of balance,
which is the more toxic? I don't think anyone is suggesting it should
be illegal to kill weeds :-)
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
As to which is the more toxic, did you mean to humans or any animal
(including insects) in the environment? My guess, and it is a guess, is
that sodium chlorate would be generally more toxic.
Sodium chlorate oral LD50 in rats is 1200mg/kg
Glyphosate oral LD50 in rats is >5000mg/kg
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
Nope.
I know what it is!
I drank some when I was very young, I can still remember the taste and the
amount of honking up.
School milk?
LOL
--
Spike
Timatmarford
2025-04-26 12:40:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Snip
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
I have one each day (Disprin) to counter *sticky blood*. Has to be taken
with Omeprazole to protect the stomach.
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 13:22:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Timatmarford
Snip
Post by Tricky Dicky
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
Aspirin
I have one each day (Disprin) to counter *sticky blood*. Has to be taken
with Omeprazole to protect the stomach.
Ditto. Although mine is coated 'gastro resistant' plain aspirin.

But no, it wasn't aspirin. Or any drug.
--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.
Jeff Layman
2025-04-26 12:20:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
The hypernatremia and hyperchloremia suggest sodium and chloride, but
with the dosage in mL it suggests a liquid - perhaps bleach.
--
Jeff
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 12:33:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Guess what this is.
"Serious toxicity occurs when [redacted] is ingested in large amounts (5
mL/kg in children, 150–200 mL in adults) or at concentrations more than
6% . Redness, oedema, and ulceration may occur in the oral cavity,
nasopharynx, and oesophagus, and in severe cases gastric perforation may
occur. Complications may include coughing, shortness of breath,
aspiration pneumonia, and upper airway oedema. In severe cases,
pulmonary oedema may occur, and tachycardia, hypotension, and
convulsions have also been reported. Systemically, metabolic acidosis,
hypernatremia, and hyperchloremia appear."
Hint: It isn't banned. It's available in every supermarket.
The hypernatremia and hyperchloremia suggest sodium and chloride, but
with the dosage in mL it suggests a liquid - perhaps bleach.
You are a very smart man sir!
It is in fact sodium hypochlorite, or household bleach.
Which can be boiled to make sodium chlorate. Something I have yet to try
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx
Theo
2025-04-27 09:39:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
ITYM it should be illegal to use chemical weedkillers. Killing weeds is
still allowed :-)

(the EDM hasn't gone anywhere, as they tend not to:)
https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/62239/pesticide-use-in-towns-and-cities

Theo
Tim Streater
2025-04-27 11:24:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Jeff Layman
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
ITYM it should be illegal to use chemical weedkillers. Killing weeds is
still allowed :-)
I would have thought that all weedkillers are chemical.
--
Lady Astor: "If you were my husband I'd give you poison."
Churchill: "If you were my wife, I'd drink it."
Theo
2025-04-27 12:20:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Theo
Post by Jeff Layman
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
ITYM it should be illegal to use chemical weedkillers. Killing weeds is
still allowed :-)
I would have thought that all weedkillers are chemical.
'Weedkillers' != 'killing weeds'. Digging them up, hoeing them or mulching
doesn't need chemicals. I suppose it's arguable whether a BFO flamethrower
is a chemical method :-)

Unless we want to get philosophical and say that the arm holding the spade
is powered by chemical action...

Theo
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 16:09:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Unless we want to get philosophical and say that the arm holding the spade
is powered by chemical action...
Not philosophical, just accurate
--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken
Roland Perry
2025-04-27 16:04:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Theo
Post by Jeff Layman
Oh, but there /is/ a suggestion that it should be illegal to kill weeds
- at least in public areas. For example,
Post by Jeff Layman
<https://www.endsreport.com/article/1872380/mps-sign-motion-calling-national-phase-out-pesticides-public-areas>.
ITYM it should be illegal to use chemical weedkillers. Killing weeds is
still allowed :-)
I would have thought that all weedkillers are chemical.
'Weedkillers' != 'killing weeds'. Digging them up, hoeing them or mulching
doesn't need chemicals. I suppose it's arguable whether a BFO flamethrower
is a chemical method :-)
OK, how about a strimmer?
Post by Theo
Unless we want to get philosophical and say that the arm holding the spade
is powered by chemical action...
Theo
--
Roland Perry
Thomas Prufer
2025-04-27 06:37:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jeff Layman
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
It was banned as a weedkiller, i.e. as something that kills plants in lawns,
plots, grass...

It is still available (at least as I search for it now, from within the EU:
Amazon, ebay, online ag supply shops, ...) as a cleaner for patios, and stone
slabs, with plenty of warnings as to what runoff will do to flowers beds and
lawns nearby. ISTR the stuff easily available is about 30% active ingredient,
possibly too little to make it pop, but still enough to set your pants on fire.
The other 70% are salt and crud, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_trousers


Thomas Prufer
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 16:04:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Thomas Prufer
Post by Jeff Layman
It was banned by the EU in 2009. I had assumed it was because it was
possible, with a bit of effort, to remove the fire-depressant and
therefore it became a possible source of an explosive. However, it seems
to be that it was banned because it could be toxic, and no safe level
was established. Its supply after being banned is taken as a serious
<https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/company-director-jailed-for-sale-of-banned-weedkiller>
It was banned as a weedkiller, i.e. as something that kills plants in lawns,
plots, grass...
Amazon, ebay, online ag supply shops, ...) as a cleaner for patios, and stone
slabs, with plenty of warnings as to what runoff will do to flowers beds and
lawns nearby. ISTR the stuff easily available is about 30% active ingredient,
possibly too little to make it pop, but still enough to set your pants on fire.
The other 70% are salt and crud, I think.
It's usually sold with something that makes it useless as an explosive.
I didnt think you could still get it without some sort of chemical license.

It really is the best weedkiller for e,g, gravel drives
Post by Thomas Prufer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_trousers
Thomas Prufer
--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin
Jeff Layman
2025-04-25 17:35:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's
annual general meeting.
It's much cheaper to buy this sort of thing:
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agrigem-HERBICIDE-INDUSTRIAL-GLYPHOSATE-EFFECTIVE/dp/B0857GJ68T>
Add your own wetting agents...
--
Jeff
PeterC
2025-04-26 17:21:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's
annual general meeting.
I still have about 4½ li - should be enough for a while.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway
Timatmarford
2025-04-26 17:36:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by PeterC
Post by GB
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's
annual general meeting.
I still have about 4½ li - should be enough for a while.
Monsanto still make the stuff.

I don't want to provoke the farm chemical store police so I won't brag:-)
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-26 18:01:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Timatmarford
Post by PeterC
Post by GB
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bayer-says-legal-woes-could-103823742.html
German pharmaceuticals and agrichemicals firm Bayer said Friday it could
be forced to pull its Roundup weedkiller from the market if it is not
able to contain simmering legal troubles.
"We're nearing a point where the litigation industry could force us to
even stop selling this vital product," CEO Bill Anderson said at Bayer's
annual general meeting.
I still have about 4½ li - should be enough for a while.
Monsanto still make the stuff.
I don't want to provoke the farm chemical store police so I won't brag:-)
I got some online last year
--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell
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