Discussion:
Windows 10 bricks
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nib
2025-04-26 16:36:12 UTC
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Permalink
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.

Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.

Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.

nib
Joe
2025-04-26 17:06:31 UTC
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Permalink
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 17:36:12 +0100
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Dead as far as Windows goes.
Post by nib
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Nothing is completely safe when unsupported.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
Debian is probably safer, as it will not contain some of the bells and
whistles of Ubuntu, and it will be indefinitely supported, or at least
until Net Zero is fully implemented and we have no electricity. I'm
running the current Debian on a 13-year-old Atom netbook, among other
things, though that will end soon as it is 32 bit. As you may know, it
is Debian on which Ubuntu and several other distributions are based.

The netinstall image of the current stable distribution allows a
minimal installation, and if you have Linux experience, you can do
without a GUI, which reduces the attack surface. There's no real need,
as a normal desktop installation can be upgraded to the next stable
when the time comes, and the less baggage installed, the fewer potential
problems.

The only non-default software you need is a Samba server, which you set
up to share data directories. This will need a bit of tweaking as
Microsoft changes its CIFS protocol between Windows versions, but that
doesn't happen too often.

A possible alternative, if you have the Pro version of Win10, is to
make it virtual running on a Linux host, and to firewall it to within an
inch of its life, only allowing CIFS access, and then only from the
local net.
--
Joe
Jeff Gaines
2025-04-26 17:31:11 UTC
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Permalink
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server for
other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything else, so
that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
nib
Carry on using it, each iteration of Windows gets worse. I am running Win
8.1 on one machine and it gets regular updates, presumably for Defender.
--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)
mm0fmf
2025-04-26 18:58:00 UTC
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Permalink
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
nib
Use RUFUS from rufus.ie to install WIn11. Sets up non-compliant
hardware, bypasses Microsoft account creation, disables telemetry, sets
up other tedious stuff.

I used it on a i7 Gen7 machine and it was effortless and simple
including fetching the Win11 ISO.

You need a 16GB (or was it 32GB) USB memory stick.
Theo
2025-04-26 19:05:29 UTC
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Permalink
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC? You only get it officially with W10 Enterprise
but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one of the
DIY NAS distros anyway.

Theo
nib
2025-04-26 19:17:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC? You only get it officially with W10 Enterprise
but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one of the
DIY NAS distros anyway.
Theo
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!

Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though I've
always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy moments,
typically when at first boot after installation it comes up with no
wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like mad to
find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly install or
enable.

nib
Theo
2025-04-26 20:54:46 UTC
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Permalink
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though I've
always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy moments,
typically when at first boot after installation it comes up with no
wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like mad to
find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly install or
enable.
If you want it to be a storage server, look into a distro like TrueNAS or
Unraid or OpenMediaVault. I don't know what hardware you have as to whether
there will be any incompatibility (it's usually good nowadays, although the
FreeBSD-based ones can be more picky) - if the machines are old likely many
of the kinks have been ironed out. These distros will hand-hold you more in
terms of setting up network shares etc, while Ubuntu is just a base OS and
you need to install and configure everything else yourself.

Theo
NY
2025-04-26 21:54:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by nib
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC?  You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise
but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one of the
DIY NAS distros anyway.
Theo
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though I've
always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy moments,
typically when at first boot after installation it comes up with no
wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like mad to
find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly install or
enable.
I've installed Ubuntu, MX and Cinnamon Mint distros of Debian on various
Intel PCs and found it installed and configured perfectly. It even
automatically (with no intervention from me at all) discovered my
LAN-connected HP laser printer and configured it.

One PC has an Ethernet connection to the network but the other has wifi;
AFAIK I didn't have to connect the wifi PC by Ethernet when I was
initially configuring it.

The PC which runs all three of these distros (by swapping hard drives)
is Windows 10 vintage for hardware; the one that runs just MX is Windows
7 vintage.
Joe
2025-04-27 08:16:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 20:17:22 +0100
Post by nib
Post by Theo
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC? You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one
of the DIY NAS distros anyway.
I don't know if you already have a server running, but if not, there
are various useful things you can do with something permanently on. If
you use a general-purpose distribution, these things remain options for
the future.
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
There was a time when I'd have suggested trying Knoppix from disc or
USB, and if everything works OK then the computer will work with any
Debian or derivative, with maybe a bit of fiddling. Unfortunately, this
isn't produced any more, and the latest version is about four years old
(9.1). If the hardware at least as old as that, it's still a good test.

https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
Post by nib
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though
I've always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy
moments, typically when at first boot after installation it comes up
with no wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like
mad to find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly
install or enable.
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
--
Joe
Paul
2025-04-27 14:59:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 20:17:22 +0100
Post by nib
Post by Theo
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC? You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one
of the DIY NAS distros anyway.
I don't know if you already have a server running, but if not, there
are various useful things you can do with something permanently on. If
you use a general-purpose distribution, these things remain options for
the future.
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
There was a time when I'd have suggested trying Knoppix from disc or
USB, and if everything works OK then the computer will work with any
Debian or derivative, with maybe a bit of fiddling. Unfortunately, this
isn't produced any more, and the latest version is about four years old
(9.1). If the hardware at least as old as that, it's still a good test.
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
Post by nib
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though
I've always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy
moments, typically when at first boot after installation it comes up
with no wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like
mad to find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly
install or enable.
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
[Picture]

Loading Image...

According to "top", it doesn't have much of a memory footprint.

It's mainly meant as a portable boot OS (from a stick or DVD).
while you can install it, that wasn't the original design intent.

And the above setup has Compiz running, which is an acquired taste.

The kernel on that one is 5.10, which is good for older equipment.
That is more likely to work with the graphics cards in refugee systems.

I happened to have that one in my DVD collection. But you can put it
on a USB stick, using rufus.ie tool. When the boot prompt comes up,
you can enter

knoppix64

to boot it. But the boot line also accepts parameters such as "noacpi",
which helps it boot on much older computers. If you do that though,
at shutdown you will see a "Win98-like prompt", such as
"It is safe to shut down your computer now", as that is
an APM prompt :-) You only use noacpi, if it absolutely won't boot.

Paul
SH
2025-04-27 15:17:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 20:17:22 +0100
Post by nib
Post by Theo
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC? You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one
of the DIY NAS distros anyway.
I don't know if you already have a server running, but if not, there
are various useful things you can do with something permanently on. If
you use a general-purpose distribution, these things remain options for
the future.
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
There was a time when I'd have suggested trying Knoppix from disc or
USB, and if everything works OK then the computer will work with any
Debian or derivative, with maybe a bit of fiddling. Unfortunately, this
isn't produced any more, and the latest version is about four years old
(9.1). If the hardware at least as old as that, it's still a good test.
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
Post by nib
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though
I've always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy
moments, typically when at first boot after installation it comes up
with no wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like
mad to find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly
install or enable.
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/6QjVvLBp/knoppix-9-1.jpg
According to "top", it doesn't have much of a memory footprint.
It's mainly meant as a portable boot OS (from a stick or DVD).
while you can install it, that wasn't the original design intent.
And the above setup has Compiz running, which is an acquired taste.
The kernel on that one is 5.10, which is good for older equipment.
That is more likely to work with the graphics cards in refugee systems.
I happened to have that one in my DVD collection. But you can put it
on a USB stick, using rufus.ie tool. When the boot prompt comes up,
you can enter
knoppix64
to boot it. But the boot line also accepts parameters such as "noacpi",
which helps it boot on much older computers. If you do that though,
at shutdown you will see a "Win98-like prompt", such as
"It is safe to shut down your computer now", as that is
an APM prompt :-) You only use noacpi, if it absolutely won't boot.
Paul
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
Paul
2025-04-27 15:32:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SH
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 20:17:22 +0100
Post by nib
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC?  You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise but I don't know if there are workarounds.
  
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one
of the DIY NAS distros anyway.
I don't know if you already have a server running, but if not, there
are various useful things you can do with something permanently on. If
you use a general-purpose distribution, these things remain options for
the future.
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
There was a time when I'd have suggested trying Knoppix from disc or
USB, and if everything works OK then the computer will work with any
Debian or derivative, with maybe a bit of fiddling. Unfortunately, this
isn't produced any more, and the latest version is about four years old
(9.1). If the hardware at least as old as that, it's still a good test.
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
Post by nib
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though
I've always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy
moments, typically when at first boot after installation it comes up
with no wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like
mad to find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly
install or enable.
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
    [Picture]
     https://i.postimg.cc/6QjVvLBp/knoppix-9-1.jpg
According to "top", it doesn't have much of a memory footprint.
It's mainly meant as a portable boot OS (from a stick or DVD).
while you can install it, that wasn't the original design intent.
And the above setup has Compiz running, which is an acquired taste.
The kernel on that one is 5.10, which is good for older equipment.
That is more likely to work with the graphics cards in refugee systems.
I happened to have that one in my DVD collection. But you can put it
on a USB stick, using rufus.ie tool. When the boot prompt comes up,
you can enter
    knoppix64
to boot it. But the boot line also accepts parameters such as "noacpi",
which helps it boot on much older computers. If you do that though,
at shutdown you will see a "Win98-like prompt", such as
"It is safe to shut down your computer now", as that is
an APM prompt :-) You only use noacpi, if it absolutely won't boot.
    Paul
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
Joe says that is the last one.
It's also the last Knoppix in my collection.

That one is 5.10 kernel, Linux Mint 21.3 is 5.15 kernel (last OS with good
graphics card support). Ubuntu 24.04 is 6.x kernel, better suited
to newer equipment, and maybe an older graphics card doesn't work.

I think you are supposed to look for a kernel with "HWE" in the
description, for bleeding edge hardware. If you just bought a 285-equipped
laptop, that might take a HWE kernel to boot.

And remember, that the industry made a lot of these changes
(like... Wayland versus Xorg) in an effort to make older equipment obsolete.
This lengthens the time it takes us, to support people trying
to re-purpose equipment.

Paul
SH
2025-04-27 15:40:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by SH
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 20:17:22 +0100
Post by nib
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC?  You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one
of the DIY NAS distros anyway.
I don't know if you already have a server running, but if not, there
are various useful things you can do with something permanently on. If
you use a general-purpose distribution, these things remain options for
the future.
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
There was a time when I'd have suggested trying Knoppix from disc or
USB, and if everything works OK then the computer will work with any
Debian or derivative, with maybe a bit of fiddling. Unfortunately, this
isn't produced any more, and the latest version is about four years old
(9.1). If the hardware at least as old as that, it's still a good test.
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
Post by nib
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though
I've always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy
moments, typically when at first boot after installation it comes up
with no wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like
mad to find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly
install or enable.
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
    [Picture]
     https://i.postimg.cc/6QjVvLBp/knoppix-9-1.jpg
According to "top", it doesn't have much of a memory footprint.
It's mainly meant as a portable boot OS (from a stick or DVD).
while you can install it, that wasn't the original design intent.
And the above setup has Compiz running, which is an acquired taste.
The kernel on that one is 5.10, which is good for older equipment.
That is more likely to work with the graphics cards in refugee systems.
I happened to have that one in my DVD collection. But you can put it
on a USB stick, using rufus.ie tool. When the boot prompt comes up,
you can enter
    knoppix64
to boot it. But the boot line also accepts parameters such as "noacpi",
which helps it boot on much older computers. If you do that though,
at shutdown you will see a "Win98-like prompt", such as
"It is safe to shut down your computer now", as that is
an APM prompt :-) You only use noacpi, if it absolutely won't boot.
    Paul
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
Joe says that is the last one.
It's also the last Knoppix in my collection.
That one is 5.10 kernel, Linux Mint 21.3 is 5.15 kernel (last OS with good
graphics card support). Ubuntu 24.04 is 6.x kernel, better suited
to newer equipment, and maybe an older graphics card doesn't work.
I think you are supposed to look for a kernel with "HWE" in the
description, for bleeding edge hardware. If you just bought a 285-equipped
laptop, that might take a HWE kernel to boot.
And remember, that the industry made a lot of these changes
(like... Wayland versus Xorg) in an effort to make older equipment obsolete.
This lengthens the time it takes us, to support people trying
to re-purpose equipment.
Paul
So *when* was the most recent version of Knoppix releaased?

S.
Paul
2025-04-27 18:56:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SH
Post by Paul
Post by SH
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 20:17:22 +0100
Post by nib
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC?  You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise but I don't know if there are workarounds.
  
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one
of the DIY NAS distros anyway.
I don't know if you already have a server running, but if not, there
are various useful things you can do with something permanently on. If
you use a general-purpose distribution, these things remain options for
the future.
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
There was a time when I'd have suggested trying Knoppix from disc or
USB, and if everything works OK then the computer will work with any
Debian or derivative, with maybe a bit of fiddling. Unfortunately, this
isn't produced any more, and the latest version is about four years old
(9.1). If the hardware at least as old as that, it's still a good test.
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
Post by nib
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though
I've always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy
moments, typically when at first boot after installation it comes up
with no wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like
mad to find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly
install or enable.
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
     [Picture]
      https://i.postimg.cc/6QjVvLBp/knoppix-9-1.jpg
According to "top", it doesn't have much of a memory footprint.
It's mainly meant as a portable boot OS (from a stick or DVD).
while you can install it, that wasn't the original design intent.
And the above setup has Compiz running, which is an acquired taste.
The kernel on that one is 5.10, which is good for older equipment.
That is more likely to work with the graphics cards in refugee systems.
I happened to have that one in my DVD collection. But you can put it
on a USB stick, using rufus.ie tool. When the boot prompt comes up,
you can enter
     knoppix64
to boot it. But the boot line also accepts parameters such as "noacpi",
which helps it boot on much older computers. If you do that though,
at shutdown you will see a "Win98-like prompt", such as
"It is safe to shut down your computer now", as that is
an APM prompt :-) You only use noacpi, if it absolutely won't boot.
     Paul
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
Joe says that is the last one.
It's also the last Knoppix in my collection.
That one is 5.10 kernel, Linux Mint 21.3 is 5.15 kernel (last OS with good
graphics card support). Ubuntu 24.04 is 6.x kernel, better suited
to newer equipment, and maybe an older graphics card doesn't work.
I think you are supposed to look for a kernel with "HWE" in the
description, for bleeding edge hardware. If you just bought a 285-equipped
laptop, that might take a HWE kernel to boot.
And remember, that the industry made a lot of these changes
(like... Wayland versus Xorg) in an effort to make older equipment obsolete.
This lengthens the time it takes us, to support people trying
to re-purpose equipment.
    Paul
So *when* was the most recent version of Knoppix releaased?
S.
KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso

On a Knoppix release by Klaus Knopper, there is an early
release that might get stuffed in a magazine insert,
then there might have been a later release where peasants
can download the ISO (that's me). Thus, while the date in the
string is generally indicative, it might not be the very
last one. But that date should be close enough for most purposes.

Paul
SH
2025-04-27 19:50:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by SH
Post by Paul
Post by SH
Post by Joe
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 20:17:22 +0100
Post by nib
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC?  You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one
of the DIY NAS distros anyway.
I don't know if you already have a server running, but if not, there
are various useful things you can do with something permanently on. If
you use a general-purpose distribution, these things remain options for
the future.
Post by nib
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
There was a time when I'd have suggested trying Knoppix from disc or
USB, and if everything works OK then the computer will work with any
Debian or derivative, with maybe a bit of fiddling. Unfortunately, this
isn't produced any more, and the latest version is about four years old
(9.1). If the hardware at least as old as that, it's still a good test.
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
Post by nib
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though
I've always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy
moments, typically when at first boot after installation it comes up
with no wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like
mad to find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly
install or enable.
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
     [Picture]
      https://i.postimg.cc/6QjVvLBp/knoppix-9-1.jpg
According to "top", it doesn't have much of a memory footprint.
It's mainly meant as a portable boot OS (from a stick or DVD).
while you can install it, that wasn't the original design intent.
And the above setup has Compiz running, which is an acquired taste.
The kernel on that one is 5.10, which is good for older equipment.
That is more likely to work with the graphics cards in refugee systems.
I happened to have that one in my DVD collection. But you can put it
on a USB stick, using rufus.ie tool. When the boot prompt comes up,
you can enter
     knoppix64
to boot it. But the boot line also accepts parameters such as "noacpi",
which helps it boot on much older computers. If you do that though,
at shutdown you will see a "Win98-like prompt", such as
"It is safe to shut down your computer now", as that is
an APM prompt :-) You only use noacpi, if it absolutely won't boot.
     Paul
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
Joe says that is the last one.
It's also the last Knoppix in my collection.
That one is 5.10 kernel, Linux Mint 21.3 is 5.15 kernel (last OS with good
graphics card support). Ubuntu 24.04 is 6.x kernel, better suited
to newer equipment, and maybe an older graphics card doesn't work.
I think you are supposed to look for a kernel with "HWE" in the
description, for bleeding edge hardware. If you just bought a 285-equipped
laptop, that might take a HWE kernel to boot.
And remember, that the industry made a lot of these changes
(like... Wayland versus Xorg) in an effort to make older equipment obsolete.
This lengthens the time it takes us, to support people trying
to re-purpose equipment.
    Paul
So *when* was the most recent version of Knoppix releaased?
S.
KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso
On a Knoppix release by Klaus Knopper, there is an early
release that might get stuffed in a magazine insert,
then there might have been a later release where peasants
can download the ISO (that's me). Thus, while the date in the
string is generally indicative, it might not be the very
last one. But that date should be close enough for most purposes.
Paul
So has Klaus Knopper paused all further development of Knoppix? The
fact that the ISO dates from 2021 worries me slightly when used on a
machine connected to the internet...... security vulns galore?
Joe
2025-04-28 08:34:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 20:50:29 +0100
Post by SH
So has Klaus Knopper paused all further development of Knoppix?
It looks that way, presumably his interests have changed. His website
is that of a consulting engineer, and contains a few other projects.
Post by SH
The
fact that the ISO dates from 2021 worries me slightly when used on a
machine connected to the internet...... security vulns galore?
Of course. I would hate to try to work out how many upgrades to sid
there has been in that time, although of course not many will be
security related.

It's a diagnostic tool, and I would expect it to be run on a machine
with no network connection. It contains general computing applications,
but it isn't something you'd expect to use for casual email or surfing.

If it can see the local SSID, then it's safe to say the wifi works, and
you can see what driver software is installed to make that happen. Any
other networking issues can normally be dealt with by any up-to-date
live distribution, such as Debian's own.
--
Joe
Joe
2025-04-27 16:42:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 16:17:28 +0100
Post by SH
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
9.1, the images are dated January 2021. There was a 9.2, but it wasn't
publicly available and I doubt that it was much later than 9.1.

Knoppix is/was basically Debian unstable with extra hardware drivers,
and was primarily intended for the OP's use, trying a new computer to
check that everything worked before installing Linux.

It was, as Paul said, installable on hard drive, but the revisions were
reasonably frequent and it wasn't upgradeable. The Unique Selling Point
of Debian is that it will always be upgradeable, and a lot of work goes
into making that happen. Klaus Knopper started with Debian and put the
work into making drivers for new hardware.
--
Joe
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 17:03:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 16:17:28 +0100
Post by SH
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
9.1, the images are dated January 2021. There was a 9.2, but it wasn't
publicly available and I doubt that it was much later than 9.1.
Knoppix is/was basically Debian unstable with extra hardware drivers,
and was primarily intended for the OP's use, trying a new computer to
check that everything worked before installing Linux.
It was, as Paul said, installable on hard drive, but the revisions were
reasonably frequent and it wasn't upgradeable. The Unique Selling Point
of Debian is that it will always be upgradeable, and a lot of work goes
into making that happen. Klaus Knopper started with Debian and put the
work into making drivers for new hardware.
In short its a less well engineered and supported version of Debian
unstable, which is what Mint/ubuntu is., except it's not as polished
--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.
Paul
2025-04-27 19:04:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 16:17:28 +0100
Post by SH
Whats the latest version of Knoppix and when was the last update?
9.1, the images are dated January 2021. There was a 9.2, but it wasn't
publicly available and I doubt that it was much later than 9.1.
Knoppix is/was basically Debian unstable with extra hardware drivers,
and was primarily intended for the OP's use, trying a new computer to
check that everything worked before installing Linux.
It was, as Paul said, installable on hard drive, but the revisions were
reasonably frequent and it wasn't upgradeable. The Unique Selling Point
of Debian is that it will always be upgradeable, and a lot of work goes
into making that happen. Klaus Knopper started with Debian and put the
work into making drivers for new hardware.
In short its a less well engineered and supported version of Debian unstable, which is what Mint/ubuntu is., except it's not as polished
It was engineered for use.

For example, it used to mount partitions RO, for forensic reasons,
then you could issue a remount and change the partition to RW if
you wanted to write. Whereas a lot of current-generation setups
mount everything RW, even if that wasn't quite what you had in mind.

The boot line is up-front. No edit grub submenu. The "boot line",
you type in the things you want to launch it.

knoppix # load 32 bit version
knoppix64 noacpi # load 64 bit version, run APM mode

There is a "cheat codes" page under an F key, with more of those options. Like F2 or F3 maybe.

Klaus also played a part in squashFS, but I don't know the whole story there.

Klaus played a declining role, in the later releases, and there was
a team of volunteers who were doing the heavy lifting. He still oversaw
the project, but wasn't working in the pits, because he had a real job.

I believe at first, he was doing the whole thing, himself.

Paul
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 15:41:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
I'm sure you know that this is because the firmware does not have
source code available, so pure Debian does not contain it. But the
current Debian 12 (Bookworm) installers do contain non-free firmware,
though I'm guessing that you probably need to run the installer in
Expert mode to be given the option.
One of the reasons I moved from debian to Mint was the bundling of all
the 'non free' goodies directly in the distro.
--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 15:37:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by nib
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Look into Windows 10 LTSC?  You only get it officially with W10
Enterprise
but I don't know if there are workarounds.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
If it's going to be a server, it's probably better as Ubuntu or one of the
DIY NAS distros anyway.
Theo
That's probably what I'll do. I just have this uncertainty each time
that it might not work with Linux!
Apart from Red Hat many years ago I've only used Ubuntu, and though I've
always succeeded somehow in the past there have been hairy moments,
typically when at first boot after installation it comes up with no
wireless, or even no network at all, and you're Googling like mad to
find out what (proprietary?) drivers you have to explicitly install or
enable.
The great thing about Linux Mint is that if that happens, you run the
Driver manager and it tells you what drivers you need and lets you
install them.

Most wifi chips are already supported these days so its usually only
graphics cards you need to worry about.

If you do need to connect to the internet to get a network driver use
Ethernet if you can, first. A USB Ethernet device is cheap enough if the
puter has no Ethernet hardware, or in extremis a wifi dongle that *is*
directly supported will get you out of trouble.
Post by nib
nib
--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius
Max Demian
2025-04-27 10:55:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have
enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't have
a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.

Windows 10 uses 20 GB; Windows 11 uses 64 GB, and needs an extra 20 GB
free to do the upgrade. Why does Windows 11 need more than three times
the space? Is it three times as good? What would that even mean?

I suspect that the dangers of using a machine which isn't upgradable are
exaggerated.

I'm thinking of getting a mini PC, but I would like one that can run a
LLM (Large Language Model) locally, if I can master the technicalities
of AI. It appears to be rather a closed book. And you can't buy a PC
that says it's LLM ready (with a suitable GPU); only ones that say they
are suitable for gaming.
--
Max Demian
Paul
2025-04-27 15:50:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous obsolescences.
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
Windows 10 uses 20 GB; Windows 11 uses 64 GB, and needs an extra 20 GB free to do the upgrade. Why does Windows 11 need more than three times the space? Is it three times as good? What would that even mean?
I suspect that the dangers of using a machine which isn't upgradable are exaggerated.
I'm thinking of getting a mini PC, but I would like one that can run a LLM (Large Language Model) locally, if I can master the technicalities of AI. It appears to be rather a closed book. And you can't buy a PC that says it's LLM ready (with a suitable GPU); only ones that say they are suitable for gaming.
If you use a disk review utility such as SequoiaView.exe or
on Linux QDirstat or Kdirstat, you can see that some softwares
have two or three cached versions of their installers.

These are some examples of maintenance commands:

Dism /Image:C:\test\offline /Cleanup-Image /AnalyzeComponentStore \
Dism /Image:C:\test\offline /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup \___ While booted from a DVD
Dism /Image:C:\test\offline /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup /ResetBase /

Dism.exe /online /Cleanup-Image /AnalyzeComponentStore \
Dism.exe /online /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup \___ While the targeted Windows is running
Dism.exe /online /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup /ResetBase /

After your OS has a bunch of Patch Tuesdays in it, you can try

Dism.exe /online /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup /ResetBase # Administrator terminal

and that will save, maybe, a whole gigabyte :-/

But really, the caching schemes are massively wasteful. It's
perfectly reasonable to assume some of those caches NEVER get
used. Not ever. There are a lot of copies of MSEdge materials.
And in an emergency at Microsoft, they'll simple send out
new versions, those cached versions won't get used.

Try this

powercfg /h off # Remove hiberfil.sys file hidden in root of C:
powercfg /h on # Put the hiberfil.sys file back, so you can hibernate again

That is typically a quick way to get some space back, is disable
hibernation.

The utility "cleanmgr.exe" can also be used. But be careful what you tick !!!
I start with all the tick boxes disabled, then select one or two items
for cleanup. The Delivery Optimization, for sharing updates with
other computers, can be cleaned out (DoSvc). If the sharing
actually worked, I would tend to leave that alone, but I no
longer get any sharing here between machines, on Patch Tuesday.

If you see a C:\windows.old , do not panic. Those are deleted
within ten days of their creation. The cleanmgr.exe can remove
that. DO NOT try to remove that yourself, it makes a mess and
you will be sorry. The automation removes it after ten days.

It's still a bloated pig, and nibbling at the edges like this
is hardly satisfying, when you just want to delete whole
folders of stuff :-)

Paul
GB
2025-04-28 15:36:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have
enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't have
a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the SSD.
Is that impossible to do?
Max Demian
2025-04-28 19:10:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have
enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't
have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the SSD.
Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
--
Max Demian
Andy Burns
2025-04-28 19:13:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
you would clone the 128GB SSD onto e.g. a 256GB SSD (via some sort of
USB adapter usually) then swap to the 256GB drive and upgrade Win10 to
win11 with all that free-space.
David Wade
2025-04-28 20:22:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have
enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't
have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
USB stick?
John Rumm
2025-04-29 09:10:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have
enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't
have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
Most SSDs will have a cloning tool available from the maker (or there
are various free ones available). You mount the new SSD on an adaptor
that connects to USB. Install the cloning software on the existing SSD
(or make a bootable USB flash drive version). That then lets you clone
the entire existing SSD to the new one. Most tools will also allow you
to expand the partition sizes to fill the new larger SSD in the process.
Once complete (should take no more than 10 to 15 mins for a 120GB SSD if
the new drive is connected via a USB3 port), you take out the old SSD
and install the new one in its place. The machine should now boot from
that and appear exactly as it was, except you now have loads of free
disk space. (and possibly faster disk IO / boot times if the new SSD is
quicker than the last one)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Max Demian
2025-04-29 11:07:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have
enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't
have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
Most SSDs will have a cloning tool available from the maker (or there
are various free ones available). You mount the new SSD on an adaptor
that connects to USB. Install the cloning software on the existing SSD
(or make a bootable USB flash drive version). That then lets you clone
the entire existing SSD to the new one. Most tools will also allow you
to expand the partition sizes to fill the new larger SSD in the process.
Once complete (should take no more than 10 to 15 mins for a 120GB SSD if
the new drive is connected via a USB3 port), you take out the old SSD
and install the new one in its place. The machine should now boot from
that and appear exactly as it was, except you now have loads of free
disk space. (and possibly faster disk IO / boot times if the new SSD is
quicker than the last one)
Thank you. I think I'll buy a mini PC (as soon as I've decided which
one), copy a lot of the files from my laptop onto it, which will make
room for the upgrade.
--
Max Demian
GB
2025-04-30 10:47:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by John Rumm
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't
have enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It
doesn't have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
Most SSDs will have a cloning tool available from the maker (or there
are various free ones available). You mount the new SSD on an adaptor
that connects to USB. Install the cloning software on the existing SSD
(or make a bootable USB flash drive version). That then lets you clone
the entire existing SSD to the new one. Most tools will also allow you
to expand the partition sizes to fill the new larger SSD in the
process. Once complete (should take no more than 10 to 15 mins for a
120GB SSD if the new drive is connected via a USB3 port), you take out
the old SSD and install the new one in its place. The machine should
now boot from that and appear exactly as it was, except you now have
loads of free disk space. (and possibly faster disk IO / boot times if
the new SSD is quicker than the last one)
Thank you. I think I'll buy a mini PC (as soon as I've decided which
one), copy a lot of the files from my laptop onto it, which will make
room for the upgrade.
If you just want to free some space on the laptop, you can get tiny USB
sticks that are so small you can leave them in place all the time to
provide extra storage space. Something like this

https://www.staples.co.uk/computing-webcams-printers/computing-storage-and-memory/flash-drives/verbatim-store-n-stay-nano-usb-3-0-64gb-flash-drive-98711

Obviously, it uses up one of the USB ports.
John Rumm
2025-04-30 12:10:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
Post by John Rumm
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't
have enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It
doesn't have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
Most SSDs will have a cloning tool available from the maker (or there
are various free ones available). You mount the new SSD on an adaptor
that connects to USB. Install the cloning software on the existing
SSD (or make a bootable USB flash drive version). That then lets you
clone the entire existing SSD to the new one. Most tools will also
allow you to expand the partition sizes to fill the new larger SSD in
the process. Once complete (should take no more than 10 to 15 mins
for a 120GB SSD if the new drive is connected via a USB3 port), you
take out the old SSD and install the new one in its place. The
machine should now boot from that and appear exactly as it was,
except you now have loads of free disk space. (and possibly faster
disk IO / boot times if the new SSD is quicker than the last one)
Thank you. I think I'll buy a mini PC (as soon as I've decided which
one), copy a lot of the files from my laptop onto it, which will make
room for the upgrade.
If you just want to free some space on the laptop, you can get tiny USB
sticks that are so small you can leave them in place all the time to
provide extra storage space. Something like this
https://www.staples.co.uk/computing-webcams-printers/computing-storage-
and-memory/flash-drives/verbatim-store-n-stay-nano-usb-3-0-64gb-flash-
drive-98711
Obviously, it uses up one of the USB ports.
and will be dog slow compared to a real SSD...
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
GB
2025-05-01 09:42:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by GB
If you just want to free some space on the laptop, you can get tiny
USB sticks that are so small you can leave them in place all the time
to provide extra storage space. Something like this
https://www.staples.co.uk/computing-webcams-printers/computing-
storage- and-memory/flash-drives/verbatim-store-n-stay-nano-
usb-3-0-64gb-flash- drive-98711
Obviously, it uses up one of the USB ports.
and will be dog slow compared to a real SSD...
That's true, but whether it matters depends on the usage. The USB stick
is fine for storing videos that you want to watch occasionally. Photos.
Old documents that you want a record of.

Joe
2025-04-30 12:12:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 11:47:29 +0100
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
Post by John Rumm
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't
have enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It
doesn't have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade
the SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
Most SSDs will have a cloning tool available from the maker (or
there are various free ones available). You mount the new SSD on
an adaptor that connects to USB. Install the cloning software on
the existing SSD (or make a bootable USB flash drive version).
That then lets you clone the entire existing SSD to the new one.
Most tools will also allow you to expand the partition sizes to
fill the new larger SSD in the process. Once complete (should take
no more than 10 to 15 mins for a 120GB SSD if the new drive is
connected via a USB3 port), you take out the old SSD and install
the new one in its place. The machine should now boot from that
and appear exactly as it was, except you now have loads of free
disk space. (and possibly faster disk IO / boot times if the new
SSD is quicker than the last one)
Thank you. I think I'll buy a mini PC (as soon as I've decided
which one), copy a lot of the files from my laptop onto it, which
will make room for the upgrade.
If you just want to free some space on the laptop, you can get tiny
USB sticks that are so small you can leave them in place all the time
to provide extra storage space. Something like this
https://www.staples.co.uk/computing-webcams-printers/computing-storage-and-memory/flash-drives/verbatim-store-n-stay-nano-usb-3-0-64gb-flash-drive-98711
Obviously, it uses up one of the USB ports.
I've just scrapped a Win10 installation on a laptop due to lack of
space. During the initial huge upgrade, it was willing to let me use an
external drive to make enough space available, but on the last upgrade
I tried, it insisted on 6GB space free on C:, which was a 32GB drive
that had run Windows for a few years, and there was no way to clear the
6GB to do it. A factory reset demanded the same amount of space, again
exclusively on C:, and even an attempt to reinstall, which would of
course wipe the existing software, was refused.

I took the hint and dumped it, leaving Linux in sole charge of the
computer. Even then, I had to make some fake Windows files in the EFI
partition before the laptop firmware would boot.
--
Joe
Max Demian
2025-04-30 12:58:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
Post by John Rumm
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't
have enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It
doesn't have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
Most SSDs will have a cloning tool available from the maker (or there
are various free ones available). You mount the new SSD on an adaptor
that connects to USB. Install the cloning software on the existing
SSD (or make a bootable USB flash drive version). That then lets you
clone the entire existing SSD to the new one. Most tools will also
allow you to expand the partition sizes to fill the new larger SSD in
the process. Once complete (should take no more than 10 to 15 mins
for a 120GB SSD if the new drive is connected via a USB3 port), you
take out the old SSD and install the new one in its place. The
machine should now boot from that and appear exactly as it was,
except you now have loads of free disk space. (and possibly faster
disk IO / boot times if the new SSD is quicker than the last one)
Thank you. I think I'll buy a mini PC (as soon as I've decided which
one), copy a lot of the files from my laptop onto it, which will make
room for the upgrade.
If you just want to free some space on the laptop, you can get tiny USB
sticks that are so small you can leave them in place all the time to
provide extra storage space. Something like this
https://www.staples.co.uk/computing-webcams-printers/computing-storage-
and-memory/flash-drives/verbatim-store-n-stay-nano-usb-3-0-64gb-flash-
drive-98711
Obviously, it uses up one of the USB ports.
Thank you. That's worth considering.
--
Max Demian
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-29 10:45:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by GB
Post by Max Demian
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have
enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't
have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
There are some work-arounds. The most obvious one is to upgrade the
SSD. Is that impossible to do?
Not sure. How would I load the OS?
Probably clone it into a new partition on the new disk
--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal
Paul
2025-04-28 19:52:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous obsolescences.
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
Windows 10 uses 20 GB; Windows 11 uses 64 GB, and needs an extra 20 GB free to do the upgrade. Why does Windows 11 need more than three times the space? Is it three times as good? What would that even mean?
I suspect that the dangers of using a machine which isn't upgradable are exaggerated.
I'm thinking of getting a mini PC, but I would like one that can run a LLM (Large Language Model) locally, if I can master the technicalities of AI. It appears to be rather a closed book. And you can't buy a PC that says it's LLM ready (with a suitable GPU); only ones that say they are suitable for gaming.
Caveat: I don't know anything about LLMs, have not run one,
am not buying hardware to run them. Too expensive for
equipment that can run a reasonable cross-section of models.

For the wish to run an LLM AI right now, you can.
It might not have voice synthesis though. This experience will be
a lot better, than the Excel spreadsheet LLM someone built :-)

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-microsoft-bitnet-small-ai-model/

"However, BitNet b1.58 2B4T still isn’t simple to run; it requires hardware
compatible with Microsoft’s bitnet.cpp framework. Running it on a
standard transformers library won’t produce any of the benefits in terms of
speed, latency, or energy consumption. BitNet b1.58 2B4T doesn’t run on GPUs,
as the majority of AI models do."

"In the research paper, which was posted on Arxiv as a work in progress, the
researchers detail how they created the bitnet. Other groups have created
bitnets before, but, the researchers say, most of their efforts are either
post-training quantization (PTQ) methods applied to pre-trained full-precision
models or native 1-bit models trained from scratch that were developed at a
smaller scale in the first place. BitNet b1.58 2B4T is a native 1-bit LLM
trained at scale; it only takes up 400MB, compared to other “small models”
that can reach up to 4.8 GB." [You can run it on a toaster...]

https://huggingface.co/microsoft/bitnet-b1.58-2B-4T

It's something that runs on a CPU, at a guess. It's supposed
to run in a relatively small memory, which means it won't need
MMAP operation, nor should it wear out your NVMe via paging.

With a 4096 token limit, it can't do really serious work, but it should
still have some of the behaviors of a large model.

*******

For standard models (using bigger number formats than the -1,0,1 model above),
even with MMAP, you might want a machine with 1TB-2TB of *RAM*, plus a
good video card. For example, a RTX5090 equipped with 96GB of GDDR
(with enterprise pricing!), can use a group-of-experts model, where,
say, a 35GB model is loaded fully into the video card, and can more
efficiently process your question. By using a single video card,
there are no bandwidth restrictions that result from using a multitude
of smaller video cards. Using a big video card can be 7x faster for
some things, because it does not need to do PCIe-to-PCIe DMA for transfers.
It might take a series of those 35GB models to load, one at a time,
from main memory. If the modules fit into system RAM, then you might
not need to modify a copy of the model stored on an NVMe stick.

That might involve sixteen thousand worth of equipment. Whereas the
tiny model above, can run on a toaster. More CPU cores are going to help
in this case. I don't think it is single threaded. It's unclear whether
it uses your whole machine, if you have a lot of cores for it to use

*******

"Running BitNet b1.58 on Raspberry Pi (Install Guide & Testing) (9 days ago)"



"How to run microsoft bitnet-b1.58-2B-4T locally on your laptop"



*******

At the current time, the most capable dedicated-NPUs are on laptops. Presumably
the feeling is, that video cards are going to have a lot more
TOPS to offer than a tile put inside the CPU package. The RTX5090 is
1000 TOPS, with the caveat that performance varies with numerical format.
the -1,0,1 model above (trit) is not currently directly supported
on a video card. There is no optimal hardware for that. But with the
right massaging, one of the other files Microsoft released, might work
on a GPU. (One of the other files doesn't use trit.)

Current video cards, on purpose, only have "small RAM". That's not
an accident. The two video card companies do not want to damage
their market for really expensive cards. And putting four
16GB cards in a PC, would not give the speedup you might like.

The video card VBIOS, has crypto signing to control how much
RAM it will use. You cannot solder different chips to a video
card and magically get it to work. You need the correct VBIOS,
and it is likely the GPU is marked at the factory in some way,
regarding what VBIOS it will accept for configuration. This prevents
third-parties from re-purposing restricted hardware.

Paul
Max Demian
2025-04-29 11:11:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous obsolescences.
I've got a laptop which technically can be upgraded but doesn't have enough space. It has a 128 GB SSD which is nearly full. It doesn't have a slot for a memory card, so I can't upgrade it that way.
Windows 10 uses 20 GB; Windows 11 uses 64 GB, and needs an extra 20 GB free to do the upgrade. Why does Windows 11 need more than three times the space? Is it three times as good? What would that even mean?
I suspect that the dangers of using a machine which isn't upgradable are exaggerated.
I'm thinking of getting a mini PC, but I would like one that can run a LLM (Large Language Model) locally, if I can master the technicalities of AI. It appears to be rather a closed book. And you can't buy a PC that says it's LLM ready (with a suitable GPU); only ones that say they are suitable for gaming.
Caveat: I don't know anything about LLMs, have not run one,
am not buying hardware to run them. Too expensive for
equipment that can run a reasonable cross-section of models.
For the wish to run an LLM AI right now, you can.
It might not have voice synthesis though. This experience will be
a lot better, than the Excel spreadsheet LLM someone built :-)
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-microsoft-bitnet-small-ai-model/
"However, BitNet b1.58 2B4T still isn’t simple to run; it requires hardware
compatible with Microsoft’s bitnet.cpp framework. Running it on a
standard transformers library won’t produce any of the benefits in terms of
speed, latency, or energy consumption. BitNet b1.58 2B4T doesn’t run on GPUs,
as the majority of AI models do."
"In the research paper, which was posted on Arxiv as a work in progress, the
researchers detail how they created the bitnet. Other groups have created
bitnets before, but, the researchers say, most of their efforts are either
post-training quantization (PTQ) methods applied to pre-trained full-precision
models or native 1-bit models trained from scratch that were developed at a
smaller scale in the first place. BitNet b1.58 2B4T is a native 1-bit LLM
trained at scale; it only takes up 400MB, compared to other “small models”
that can reach up to 4.8 GB." [You can run it on a toaster...]
https://huggingface.co/microsoft/bitnet-b1.58-2B-4T
It's something that runs on a CPU, at a guess. It's supposed
to run in a relatively small memory, which means it won't need
MMAP operation, nor should it wear out your NVMe via paging.
With a 4096 token limit, it can't do really serious work, but it should
still have some of the behaviors of a large model.
*******
For standard models (using bigger number formats than the -1,0,1 model above),
even with MMAP, you might want a machine with 1TB-2TB of *RAM*, plus a
good video card. For example, a RTX5090 equipped with 96GB of GDDR
(with enterprise pricing!), can use a group-of-experts model, where,
say, a 35GB model is loaded fully into the video card, and can more
efficiently process your question. By using a single video card,
there are no bandwidth restrictions that result from using a multitude
of smaller video cards. Using a big video card can be 7x faster for
some things, because it does not need to do PCIe-to-PCIe DMA for transfers.
It might take a series of those 35GB models to load, one at a time,
from main memory. If the modules fit into system RAM, then you might
not need to modify a copy of the model stored on an NVMe stick.
That might involve sixteen thousand worth of equipment. Whereas the
tiny model above, can run on a toaster. More CPU cores are going to help
in this case. I don't think it is single threaded. It's unclear whether
it uses your whole machine, if you have a lot of cores for it to use
*******
"Running BitNet b1.58 on Raspberry Pi (Install Guide & Testing) (9 days ago)"
http://youtu.be/3q_ItuNNpmY
"How to run microsoft bitnet-b1.58-2B-4T locally on your laptop"
http://youtu.be/iNTFobSRt0Q
*******
At the current time, the most capable dedicated-NPUs are on laptops. Presumably
the feeling is, that video cards are going to have a lot more
TOPS to offer than a tile put inside the CPU package. The RTX5090 is
1000 TOPS, with the caveat that performance varies with numerical format.
the -1,0,1 model above (trit) is not currently directly supported
on a video card. There is no optimal hardware for that. But with the
right massaging, one of the other files Microsoft released, might work
on a GPU. (One of the other files doesn't use trit.)
Current video cards, on purpose, only have "small RAM". That's not
an accident. The two video card companies do not want to damage
their market for really expensive cards. And putting four
16GB cards in a PC, would not give the speedup you might like.
The video card VBIOS, has crypto signing to control how much
RAM it will use. You cannot solder different chips to a video
card and magically get it to work. You need the correct VBIOS,
and it is likely the GPU is marked at the factory in some way,
regarding what VBIOS it will accept for configuration. This prevents
third-parties from re-purposing restricted hardware.
Thank you. Explanations and instructions are always so complicated, even
for the moderately technical.
--
Max Demian
tim+
2025-04-27 12:56:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous obsolescences.nib
Before you write the machines off as "un-upgradeable" have a
search for bios setting/features required for Win11. I've heard
of PCs that have settings that are turned off by default but are
required for Win11 and sometimes all that is needed is a fiddle
with the BIOS settings to do an upgrade.

Tim

Tim

--
Paul
2025-04-27 17:31:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim+
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous obsolescences.nib
Before you write the machines off as "un-upgradeable" have a
search for bios setting/features required for Win11. I've heard
of PCs that have settings that are turned off by default but are
required for Win11 and sometimes all that is needed is a fiddle
with the BIOS settings to do an upgrade.
Tim
Win10 x86, can't "upgrade over top" since there is no
Win11 x86. Win11 is only x64 version. You can do a Clean Install
of Win11, to install the x64 version. You can install it "beside"
the copy of Win10.

Win10 1GB RAM
Win11 4GB RAM (2.6GB given over to sandbox OS image in RAM)
Win11 16GB RAM (in addition to the previous, 8GB RAM given over to AI with NPU present)

Win10 legacy boot, might not work. Do a "Full" backup of the
hard drive, and try "mbr2gpt.exe" to change the drive over to
GPT partitioning. But if the machine does not have UEFI boot
("your mouse works" in the BIOS, if the BIOS is UEFI), and
Win11 really wants to attempt Secure Boot, which is supported
by a UEFI BIOS.

In Win10 Settings panel, type "TPM" to get to the Security Processor
page. That will have the details of your TPM. The TPM could be
1.4 or 2.0, the BIOS may have "attestation" enabled, which is Secure Boot.
I have had motherboards, where I could not get the "Attestation" status
to light up properly.

While this machine doesn't support every nuance of W11, it's
running W11 anyway.

[Picture]

Loading Image...

Paul
John Rumm
2025-04-27 16:09:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Post by nib
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Yup that would generally be ok - or at least much reduced risk unless
some other device on the LAN is compromised first and could be a vector
to reach the win 10 box.
Post by nib
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
You have other options... you could enable a hypervisor on the Win 10
box and then use it to create a VM that creates virtual hardware that
will satisfy the win 11 requirements. The win 10 side does not at that
point need to be on the same subnet, and so could be invisible to most
of the local LAN.

Alternatively you could trick the old hardware into installing 11. It
will work, but it is hard to say at which point it will cease to get
updates... you may have to do a clean install each time to get the next
"feature" update onto it if it check the hardware requirements for each
one.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Chris Hogg
2025-04-28 11:29:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
nib
Being elderly, like many here I suspect, but unlike many here, I'm not
the least bit computer savvy, (don't even understand the terms being
bandied about), I've been using Win10 successfully for a good few
years (upgraded from WinXP IIRC), I am rather worried that MS is no
longer going to support it.

But bearing in mind Win10 has been running for several years, I would
have thought the worst bugs would have been fixed by now. So is there
any real disadvantage in the likes of me continuing to use it
unsupported, especially if I have a reasonably good anti-virus
programme running (Malwarebytes, regularly updated).
--
Chris
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-28 12:31:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Hogg
bearing in mind Win10 has been running for several years, I would
have thought the worst bugs would have been fixed by now.
Bless!
--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"
Joe
2025-04-28 13:29:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:29:56 +0100
Post by Chris Hogg
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that
are working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file
server for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do
anything else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
nib
Being elderly, like many here I suspect, but unlike many here, I'm not
the least bit computer savvy, (don't even understand the terms being
bandied about), I've been using Win10 successfully for a good few
years (upgraded from WinXP IIRC), I am rather worried that MS is no
longer going to support it.
But bearing in mind Win10 has been running for several years, I would
have thought the worst bugs would have been fixed by now.
Statistically, yes. But do you know how many years that Windows
Metafiles (remember .wmf files?) sat out in plain view, while all the
time arbitrary executables could be embedded in them? Once the bad guys
realised this, Microsoft published a patch fixing the issue, and they
did it ASAP, not waiting for the next Patch Tuesday. That's rare, and
shows how serious the problem was. So there could yet be problems that
serious in Win10.
Post by Chris Hogg
So is there
any real disadvantage in the likes of me continuing to use it
unsupported, especially if I have a reasonably good anti-virus
programme running (Malwarebytes, regularly updated).
The best defence is to be careful. In thirty years of web surfing, my
wife and I have picked up exactly one virus, and that was on a womens'
craft site. The virus checker stomped it instantly.

But carry on doing the things you've presumably been doing for years,
don't click on anything not known to be safe, don't click at all on
links in emails unless you are certain it's from a friend, and so on.

Don't run normally with a computer administrator account on Windows,
designate an admin account for times when it's needed and run as an
unprivileged user for general surfing. I spent a couple of years
advising on the Windows Small Business Server newsgroup, before it moved
to a web forum, and in pretty much every case where a server had been
hacked, it turned out that the domain admin had been web-surfing on it.

If you can stand it, disable JavaScript in your web browser, allowing
it only for sites that really don't do what you need without it. It's a
nuisance sometimes, but malicious JavaScript hacked into an innocent
web page is a common malware vector. It also keeps the adverts down.

And so on...
--
Joe
Chris Hogg
2025-04-28 19:18:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
The best defence is to be careful. In thirty years of web surfing, my
wife and I have picked up exactly one virus, and that was on a womens'
craft site. The virus checker stomped it instantly.
But carry on doing the things you've presumably been doing for years,
don't click on anything not known to be safe, don't click at all on
links in emails unless you are certain it's from a friend, and so on.
Don't run normally with a computer administrator account on Windows,
designate an admin account for times when it's needed and run as an
unprivileged user for general surfing. I spent a couple of years
advising on the Windows Small Business Server newsgroup, before it moved
to a web forum, and in pretty much every case where a server had been
hacked, it turned out that the domain admin had been web-surfing on it.
If you can stand it, disable JavaScript in your web browser, allowing
it only for sites that really don't do what you need without it. It's a
nuisance sometimes, but malicious JavaScript hacked into an innocent
web page is a common malware vector. It also keeps the adverts down.
And so on...
Thanks for that advice, most of which I do anyway. There are only two
operators, one with administrator rights which gets used occasionally
when necessary, the other doesn't have those rights and is used for
the rest of the time. Not sure about Javascript - I'll have a look.

I am super cautious about almost everything, and ISTR seeing a message
saying the PC wasn't suitable for upgrading, which prompted this
enquiry. I'll have another look just to make sure.

I also have a laptop that I don't use a lot, which is of similar age.
I'll try playing around with that to see if it's upgradable.
--
Chris
Chris Hogg
2025-04-28 20:28:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Hogg
Post by Joe
The best defence is to be careful. In thirty years of web surfing, my
wife and I have picked up exactly one virus, and that was on a womens'
craft site. The virus checker stomped it instantly.
But carry on doing the things you've presumably been doing for years,
don't click on anything not known to be safe, don't click at all on
links in emails unless you are certain it's from a friend, and so on.
Don't run normally with a computer administrator account on Windows,
designate an admin account for times when it's needed and run as an
unprivileged user for general surfing. I spent a couple of years
advising on the Windows Small Business Server newsgroup, before it moved
to a web forum, and in pretty much every case where a server had been
hacked, it turned out that the domain admin had been web-surfing on it.
If you can stand it, disable JavaScript in your web browser, allowing
it only for sites that really don't do what you need without it. It's a
nuisance sometimes, but malicious JavaScript hacked into an innocent
web page is a common malware vector. It also keeps the adverts down.
And so on...
Thanks for that advice, most of which I do anyway. There are only two
operators, one with administrator rights which gets used occasionally
when necessary, the other doesn't have those rights and is used for
the rest of the time. Not sure about Javascript - I'll have a look.
I am super cautious about almost everything, and ISTR seeing a message
saying the PC wasn't suitable for upgrading, which prompted this
enquiry. I'll have another look just to make sure.
Ah yes. "The processor doesn't currently meet Windows 11 system
requirements"

and "The processor isn't currently supported for Windows 11"

As I thought.
Post by Chris Hogg
I also have a laptop that I don't use a lot, which is of similar age.
I'll try playing around with that to see if it's upgradable.
--
Chris
David Wade
2025-04-28 20:39:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Hogg
Post by Chris Hogg
Post by Joe
The best defence is to be careful. In thirty years of web surfing, my
wife and I have picked up exactly one virus, and that was on a womens'
craft site. The virus checker stomped it instantly.
But carry on doing the things you've presumably been doing for years,
don't click on anything not known to be safe, don't click at all on
links in emails unless you are certain it's from a friend, and so on.
Don't run normally with a computer administrator account on Windows,
designate an admin account for times when it's needed and run as an
unprivileged user for general surfing. I spent a couple of years
advising on the Windows Small Business Server newsgroup, before it moved
to a web forum, and in pretty much every case where a server had been
hacked, it turned out that the domain admin had been web-surfing on it.
If you can stand it, disable JavaScript in your web browser, allowing
it only for sites that really don't do what you need without it. It's a
nuisance sometimes, but malicious JavaScript hacked into an innocent
web page is a common malware vector. It also keeps the adverts down.
And so on...
Thanks for that advice, most of which I do anyway. There are only two
operators, one with administrator rights which gets used occasionally
when necessary, the other doesn't have those rights and is used for
the rest of the time. Not sure about Javascript - I'll have a look.
I am super cautious about almost everything, and ISTR seeing a message
saying the PC wasn't suitable for upgrading, which prompted this
enquiry. I'll have another look just to make sure.
I don't believe caution is enough. Exploits can be distributed via
genuine web sites. Or even just going to a .org rather than a .com or
visa versa. Disabling JavaScripts reduces the attack vectors but does
not remove them. Many sites no longer use Javascript but leverage html 5...

.. go read a few of the current CVEs at

https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=windows+10

and tell me you still feel safe....
Post by Chris Hogg
Ah yes. "The processor doesn't currently meet Windows 11 system
requirements"
and "The processor isn't currently supported for Windows 11"
As I thought.
Post by Chris Hogg
I also have a laptop that I don't use a lot, which is of similar age.
I'll try playing around with that to see if it's upgradable.
Dave
Tim Streater
2025-04-28 21:46:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Wade
. go read a few of the current CVEs at
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=windows+10
and tell me you still feel safe....
OTOH, read this:

https://www.sqlite.org/cves.html

about CVEs, and why the SQLite team tends to ignore them.
--
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web, when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another computer, another word processor, or another network.

-- Tim Berners-Lee
John Rumm
2025-04-29 11:04:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Wade
.. go read a few of the current CVEs at
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=windows+10
and tell me you still feel safe....
Then take on board that Trump was trying to defund Mitre (presumably for
his overloads!):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2025/04/16/cve-program-funding-cut-what-it-means-and-what-to-do-next/

(TL;DR - funding resumed for at least the next 11 months after public
outcry)
--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm
2025-04-29 09:38:07 UTC
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Post by Chris Hogg
Post by Chris Hogg
I am super cautious about almost everything, and ISTR seeing a message
saying the PC wasn't suitable for upgrading, which prompted this
enquiry. I'll have another look just to make sure.
Ah yes. "The processor doesn't currently meet Windows 11 system
requirements"
and "The processor isn't currently supported for Windows 11"
Which is in many cases the most irritating reason since there are plenty
of older CPUs that have more than enough power and all the required
instruction sets[1] to run win 11.

I get the impression that MS chose "8th gen" as the baseline since that
is also the generation where a TPM device was built into the CPU itself
and did not need to rely on dedicated hardware installed on (or plugged
into) the motherboard for the functionality.

[1] Over the years additional instructions get added to CPUs to support
new features, and new workloads.
--
Cheers,

John.

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Joe
2025-04-28 20:40:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 20:18:54 +0100
Post by Chris Hogg
Not sure about Javascript - I'll have a look.
All browsers can disable JS totally, but that's a real pain, you have
to keep turning it back on for sites that really won't work usefully
without it, which is most of them these days.

If you use Firefox, there is the No-Script add-on, which allows you to
do a blanket disable, then enable individual scripts on a site either
temporarily until you close the tab, or permanently. You can also
temporarily enable all scripts on a tab, which is important for when
your retail site bungs you onto a card-pay site, where you will
definitely need JS enabled.

It's still a bit of a faff, and there's no real way to know which JS
provider sites are likely to be safe, but on the whole, you can
permanently enable scripts on sites you're fairly sure are trustworthy
(and remember, even Microsoft has had web pages hacked and malicious
scripts inserted) so you can use your banking sites and the like
without messing about.
--
Joe
David Wade
2025-04-28 14:42:19 UTC
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Post by Chris Hogg
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
nib
Being elderly, like many here I suspect, but unlike many here, I'm not
the least bit computer savvy, (don't even understand the terms being
bandied about), I've been using Win10 successfully for a good few
years (upgraded from WinXP IIRC), I am rather worried that MS is no
longer going to support it.
But bearing in mind Win10 has been running for several years, I would
have thought the worst bugs would have been fixed by now. So is there
any real disadvantage in the likes of me continuing to use it
unsupported, especially if I have a reasonably good anti-virus
programme running (Malwarebytes, regularly updated).
I strongly suggest that if you want to be safe you upgrade to windows/11.

We are not talking "bugs" but security vulnerabilities.
Once Microsoft ends support for an operating system it no longer records
or acknowledges security vulnerabilities so you have no idea what holes
there are...

.. but given that much of the code base is common between W10 and W11
you can be pretty sure many of the bugs discovered in W11 will be in
W10. We also know that the hacker tools out there target vulnerabilities
not OS versions so you are at risk of having exploits installed on your
PC...

.. often these are nor viruses but things that can be exploited via PDF
or Word documents...

these can be activated before your AV gets a look-in...

.. so I would say if you do anything serious, upgrade

Dave
John Rumm
2025-04-29 09:24:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Hogg
Post by nib
With the end of Windows 10 coming up soon, I have 2 computers that are
working perfectly OK but which are not upgradable to 11.
Thinking of possible uses, is there any way an old W10 box could be
strapped down so that it can exist on a local network as a file server
for other devices on the local net but not respond to or do anything
else, so that it could be safely left unsupported.
Or I suppose I'll have to try Ubuntu on them as I have in previous
obsolescences.
nib
Being elderly, like many here I suspect, but unlike many here, I'm not
the least bit computer savvy, (don't even understand the terms being
bandied about), I've been using Win10 successfully for a good few
years (upgraded from WinXP IIRC), I am rather worried that MS is no
longer going to support it.
But bearing in mind Win10 has been running for several years, I would
have thought the worst bugs would have been fixed by now.
Many have been fixed, but also remember this is an adversarial contest.
"Black hats" are actively searching for and developing new ways to
exploit the vulnerabilities in the OS or any of the other software
commonly installed. It is a continuously evolving arms race.
Post by Chris Hogg
So is there
any real disadvantage in the likes of me continuing to use it
unsupported, especially if I have a reasonably good anti-virus
programme running (Malwarebytes, regularly updated).
There are certainly risks - how serious they will be will depend a
little on how you use the system and what you do with it. A machine that
is used just for word processing, or for driving your CNC knitting
machine will not be exposed to many threats. One that is used for web
surfing and email however will be very much more at risk.

The is also an additional risk that surfaces when a system moves out of
support due to the fact that each "new" version of the OS is mostly
based on the same code base as previous versions. So when MS find and
patch a vulnerability, and patch it for Win 11, but not Win 10, it only
takes hours for the bad actors to identify the changes made by the fix
in 11, and then they can develop an exploit for the new fixed
vulnerability, and test it on older unsupported versions of the OS.
--
Cheers,

John.

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