The Budget

I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

mm0fmf

2024-09-13 12:18:40 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

The road fuel tax will be targeted at pensioners first. The better off
who worked hard and saved for their retirement are most likely to vote
Tory. So get them all killed off sooner so they can't vote the "wrong
way" next time.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 13:38:33 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

It already is. I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually
do. Which is not very much these days at all

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

Andy Burns

2024-09-13 14:05:23 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually
do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 14:24:39 UTC

I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

Less than I pay in road tax.
And I wouldn't if it were electric though.
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

charles

2024-09-13 14:45:03 UTC

I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

Less than I pay in road tax.
And I wouldn't if it were electric though.

If you buy your power away from home, you pay VAT at 20%

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Andrew

2024-09-17 18:27:34 UTC

I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

Less than I pay in road tax.
And I wouldn't if it were electric though.

If you buy your power away from home, you pay VAT at 20%

And a heck of a lot more per unit too

Custos Custodum

2024-09-13 14:28:40 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually
do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

And VAT on the fuel duty. Are there any other taxes that attract VAT?
Alcohol and tobacco duties, maybe? What "value" (as opposed to cost)
does a tax add to anything?

JNugent

2024-09-13 14:41:30 UTC

Post by Custos Custodum

Post by The Natural Philosopher
I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually
do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

And VAT on the fuel duty.

That IS paid at the pump.

Post by Custos Custodum
Are there any other taxes that attract VAT?
Alcohol and tobacco duties, maybe?

Yes, I'm sure both are subject to VAT on top of the duty charged on
them. That's VAT on the factor price and VAT on the duty.

Post by Custos Custodum
What "value" (as opposed to cost)
does a tax add to anything?

Good question. I've never been a fan of VAT.

It seems that one of its purposes was to clamp down on various low level
black economy activities by requiring businesses to account for every
penny expended.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:00:35 UTC

Post by Custos Custodum

Post by The Natural Philosopher
I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually
do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

And VAT on the fuel duty.

That IS paid at the pump.

Post by Custos Custodum
Are there any other taxes that attract VAT?
Alcohol and tobacco duties, maybe?

Yes, I'm sure both are subject to VAT on top of the duty charged on
them. That's VAT on the factor price and VAT on the duty.

Post by Custos Custodum
What "value" (as opposed to cost)
does a tax add to anything?

Good question. I've never been a fan of VAT.
It seems that one of its purposes was to clamp down on various low level
black economy activities by requiring businesses to account for every
penny expended.

At least VAT taxes people who have money to *spend* rather than people
who own assets but have no money to spend.

I'd love to see 200% VAT on smart phones

Labour fosters hatred in people for those who have assets, and calls the
'rich tory scum'

And taxes them so they have to sell those assets and go live on the
state instead.

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

JNugent

2024-09-13 19:05:45 UTC

Post by Custos Custodum

Post by The Natural Philosopher
I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually
do.

You pay tax at the pump too ...

And VAT on the fuel duty.

That IS paid at the pump.

Post by Custos Custodum
Are there any other taxes that attract VAT?
Alcohol and tobacco duties, maybe?

Yes, I'm sure both are subject to VAT on top of the duty charged on
them. That's VAT on the factor price and VAT on the duty.

Post by Custos Custodum
What "value" (as opposed to cost)
does a tax add to anything?

Good question. I've never been a fan of VAT.
It seems that one of its purposes was to clamp down on various low
level black economy activities by requiring businesses to account for
every penny expended.

At least VAT taxes people who have money to *spend* rather than people
who own assets but have no money to spend.

Other than Council tax, is there a tax that does tax people who have no
money to spend (counting income in excess of £12,500 pa as "money"!)?

Post by The Natural Philosopher
I'd love to see 200% VAT on smart phones
Labour fosters hatred in people for those who have assets, and calls the
'rich tory scum'
And taxes them so they have to sell those assets and go live on the
state instead.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-14 01:40:12 UTC

Post by JNugent
Other than Council tax, is there a tax that does tax people who have no
money to spend (counting income in excess of £12,500 pa as "money"!)?

Depends on what you mean by 'money to spend'
BBC license fee is mandatory even if you only watch GB news...
Car tax is mandatory even if you only do 1 mile a year.
Any expenditure that is hard to get rid of - heating and electricity -
will have tax on it that you cannot realistically avoid.

Income tax is on earnings, not on spendings.
National insurance is mandatory if you are working

The labour lie is 'taking money from people who can afford it (because
they are thrifty savers) and giving it to those who need it (to buy yet
more Death Burgers and skunk) is actually fair. Or even true

Tax on capital assets is iniquitous.
Tax on earnings discourages work.

Only tax on spending is fair as it targets people who have money to spend

That's why Labour wont use it to control consumption.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

Jeff Layman

2024-09-14 07:18:51 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Car tax is mandatory even if you only do 1 mile a year.

And, of course, you have to add the tax for the mandatory insurance. I
suppose you could drive without insurance (and car tax for that
matter...), but it'll cost you a lot more than the tax if you get caught!

--
Jeff

JNugent

2024-09-17 16:24:27 UTC

Post by JNugent
Other than Council tax, is there a tax that does tax people who have
no money to spend (counting income in excess of £12,500 pa as "money"!)?

Depends on what you mean by 'money to spend'
BBC license fee is mandatory even if you only watch GB news...
Car tax is mandatory even if you only do 1 mile a year.
Any expenditure that is hard to get rid of - heating and electricity -
will have tax on it that you cannot realistically avoid.
Income tax is on earnings, not on spendings.
National insurance is mandatory if you are working
The labour lie is 'taking money from people who can afford it (because
they are thrifty savers) and giving it to those who need it (to buy yet
more Death Burgers and skunk) is actually fair. Or even true
Tax on capital assets is iniquitous.
Tax on earnings discourages work.
Only tax on spending is fair as it targets people who have money to spend
That's why Labour wont use it to control consumption.

Other than several pounds a gallon of petrol (or similar) and
significant proportions of the retail price of alcohol and tobacco, you
mean?

And of course, 20% VAT on almost everything else worth having?

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-17 16:26:47 UTC

Post by JNugent
Other than Council tax, is there a tax that does tax people who have
no money to spend (counting income in excess of £12,500 pa as "money"!)?

Depends on what you mean by 'money to spend'
BBC license fee is mandatory even if you only watch GB news...
Car tax is mandatory even if you only do 1 mile a year.
Any expenditure that is hard to get rid of - heating and electricity -
will have tax on it that you cannot realistically avoid.
Income tax is on earnings, not on spendings.
National insurance is mandatory if you are working
The labour lie is 'taking money from people who can afford it (because
they are thrifty savers) and giving it to those who need it (to buy
yet more Death Burgers and skunk) is actually fair. Or even true
Tax on capital assets is iniquitous.
Tax on earnings discourages work.
Only tax on spending is fair as it targets people who have money to spend
That's why Labour wont use it to control consumption.

Other than several pounds a gallon of petrol (or similar) and
significant proportions of the retail price of alcohol and tobacco, you
mean?
And of course, 20% VAT on almost everything else worth having?

Exactly, they should simply plonk 50% VAT on everything and have done
with it.
No income tax, no car tax, no council tax, ...in the USA a part of the
sale tax goes to the local council I think

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

JNugent

2024-09-17 16:40:06 UTC

Post by JNugent
Other than Council tax, is there a tax that does tax people who have
no money to spend (counting income in excess of £12,500 pa as "money"!)?

Depends on what you mean by 'money to spend'
BBC license fee is mandatory even if you only watch GB news...
Car tax is mandatory even if you only do 1 mile a year.
Any expenditure that is hard to get rid of - heating and electricity
- will have tax on it that you cannot realistically avoid.
Income tax is on earnings, not on spendings.
National insurance is mandatory if you are working
The labour lie is 'taking money from people who can afford it
(because they are thrifty savers) and giving it to those who need it
(to buy yet more Death Burgers and skunk) is actually fair. Or even true
Tax on capital assets is iniquitous.
Tax on earnings discourages work.
Only tax on spending is fair as it targets people who have money to spend
That's why Labour wont use it to control consumption.

Other than several pounds a gallon of petrol (or similar) and
significant proportions of the retail price of alcohol and tobacco,
you mean?
And of course, 20% VAT on almost everything else worth having?

Exactly, they should simply plonk 50% VAT on everything and have done
with it.

You have something there. I'm not sure about the rate you propose, but
the principle, I think, is sound.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
No income tax, no car tax, no council tax, ...in the USA a part of the
sale tax goes to the local council I think

All of it goes to local government (including the state). They are the
ones who levy it.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-17 16:45:14 UTC

Post by JNugent
Other than Council tax, is there a tax that does tax people who
have no money to spend (counting income in excess of £12,500 pa as
"money"!)?

Depends on what you mean by 'money to spend'
BBC license fee is mandatory even if you only watch GB news...
Car tax is mandatory even if you only do 1 mile a year.
Any expenditure that is hard to get rid of - heating and electricity
- will have tax on it that you cannot realistically avoid.
Income tax is on earnings, not on spendings.
National insurance is mandatory if you are working
The labour lie is 'taking money from people who can afford it
(because they are thrifty savers) and giving it to those who need it
(to buy yet more Death Burgers and skunk) is actually fair. Or even true
Tax on capital assets is iniquitous.
Tax on earnings discourages work.
Only tax on spending is fair as it targets people who have money to spend
That's why Labour wont use it to control consumption.

Other than several pounds a gallon of petrol (or similar) and
significant proportions of the retail price of alcohol and tobacco,
you mean?
And of course, 20% VAT on almost everything else worth having?

Exactly, they should simply plonk 50% VAT on everything and have done
with it.

You have something there. I'm not sure about the rate you propose, but
the principle, I think, is sound.

It penalises people who clearly have money to burn, and trims
consumption. It would done proper, also encourage fixing stuff ...if VAT
on repairs was slimmed down.

It's an ideal tool for managing consumption.

But labour want to punish home ownership, and all privately held assets.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
No income tax, no car tax, no council tax, ...in the USA a part of the
sale tax goes to the local council I think

All of it goes to local government (including the state). They are the
ones who levy it.

Ah yes. The federal gummint gets the income tax.

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

alan_m

2024-09-17 17:00:13 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
But labour want to punish home ownership, and all privately held assets.

Plus they have a record of targeting pension pots.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Fredxx

2024-09-17 20:47:40 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
But labour want to punish home ownership, and all privately held assets.

Plus they have a record of targeting pension pots.

Which the Tories continued to target.

alan_m

2024-09-17 21:16:26 UTC

Post by Fredxx

Post by The Natural Philosopher
But labour want to punish home ownership, and all privately held assets.

Plus they have a record of targeting pension pots.

Which the Tories continued to target.

Very seldom do a new party in government reverse the policies of the
previous party in power.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Tim Streater

2024-09-17 17:30:30 UTC

On 17 Sep 2024 at 17:45:14 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by JNugent
All of it goes to local government (including the state). They are the
ones who levy it.

Ah yes. The federal gummint gets the income tax.

And so does the state. You submit a separate state income tax form.

--
"What causes poverty?" Wrong question. Poverty is our primordial state. The real question is, "What causes wealth?"

Hint: it ain't Socialism.

JNugent

2024-09-17 23:17:24 UTC

Post by JNugent
All of it goes to local government (including the state). They are the
ones who levy it.

Ah yes. The federal gummint gets the income tax.

And so does the state. You submit a separate state income tax form.

Not all the states levy an income tax. It seems that there are nine U.S.
states that don't:

Alaska
Florida
Nevada
New Hampshire
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Washington
Washington (not DC)
Wyoming

Tim Streater

2024-09-18 07:58:45 UTC

Post by JNugent
All of it goes to local government (including the state). They are the
ones who levy it.

Ah yes. The federal gummint gets the income tax.

And so does the state. You submit a separate state income tax form.

Not all the states levy an income tax. It seems that there are nine U.S.
Alaska
Florida
Nevada
New Hampshire
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Washington
Washington (not DC)
Wyoming

Yes. I had a feeling that might be the case. But I lived in California.

--
Tim

JNugent

2024-09-18 15:01:34 UTC

Post by JNugent
All of it goes to local government (including the state). They are the
ones who levy it.

Ah yes. The federal gummint gets the income tax.

And so does the state. You submit a separate state income tax form.

Not all the states levy an income tax. It seems that there are nine U.S.
Alaska
Florida
Nevada
New Hampshire
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Washington
Washington (not DC)
Wyoming

Yes. I had a feeling that might be the case. But I lived in California.

As regards state income tax... bad luck.

Tim Streater

2024-09-17 17:28:27 UTC

On 17 Sep 2024 at 17:26:47 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Exactly, they should simply plonk 50% VAT on everything and have done
with it.

I fear that would just encourage the black market.

When I was first in Geneva, and people were looking at building a house just
over the border in France, the VAT was 25%. So no one declared the full
price/cost of anything. You paid 20% or so on a fake invoice.

--
"A committee is a cul-de-sac down which ideas are lured and then quietly strangled." - Sir Barnett Cocks (1907-1989)

Andrew

2024-09-19 19:45:57 UTC

Post by JNugent
Other than Council tax, is there a tax that does tax people who have
no money to spend (counting income in excess of £12,500 pa as "money"!)?

Depends on what you mean by 'money to spend'
BBC license fee is mandatory even if you only watch GB news...
Car tax is mandatory even if you only do 1 mile a year.
Any expenditure that is hard to get rid of - heating and electricity
- will have tax on it that you cannot realistically avoid.
Income tax is on earnings, not on spendings.
National insurance is mandatory if you are working
The labour lie is 'taking money from people who can afford it
(because they are thrifty savers) and giving it to those who need it
(to buy yet more Death Burgers and skunk) is actually fair. Or even true
Tax on capital assets is iniquitous.
Tax on earnings discourages work.
Only tax on spending is fair as it targets people who have money to spend
That's why Labour wont use it to control consumption.

Other than several pounds a gallon of petrol (or similar) and
significant proportions of the retail price of alcohol and tobacco,
you mean?
And of course, 20% VAT on almost everything else worth having?

Exactly, they should simply plonk 50% VAT on everything and have done
with it.
No income tax, no car tax, no council tax, ...in the USA a part of the
sale tax goes to the local council I think

In the USA property taxes are generally far higher than UK
council tax.

JNugent

2024-09-13 14:21:58 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

If fairness (and equality of treatment) were what was being aimed at,
the annual road tax for an electric car would have to be measured in
thousands as a flat rate solution.

Post by mm0fmf
The road fuel tax will be targeted at pensioners first. The better off
who worked hard and saved for their retirement are most likely to vote
Tory. So get them all killed off sooner so they can't vote the "wrong
way" next time.

It already is. I pay tax for the car, not how much mileage I actually
do. Which is not very much these days at all

My car had its tenth birthday several months ago (I bought it new). It
currently still has fewer than 23,000 miles on the clock. I had the use
of another car for a large part of that decade.

Doing only about 5,000 - 6,000 mile per annum these days, I suppose I
might benefit from a pure mileage charge and no fuel duty or Road Tax.
And it would need to be arranged with both of those QPQs in order to
restore fairness as between different road users.

Jim the Geordie

2024-09-13 13:51:08 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

I pay no road tax on my 1.2l petrol car, I think, because it has Stop/Go.
I can see that perk going :(

--
Jim the Geordie

Andrew

2024-09-19 19:48:09 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

I pay no road tax on my 1.2l petrol car, I think, because it has Stop/Go.
I can see that perk going :(

Good.

Andy Burns

2024-09-20 08:11:15 UTC

Post by Jim the Geordie
I pay no road tax on my 1.2l petrol car, I think, because it has Stop/Go.

Indirectly? Having stop/start may lead to the car being in the under
100g/km CO₂ band for zero VED.

Colin Bignell

2024-09-14 09:22:36 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor, or
likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

--
Colin Bignell

Chris Green

2024-09-14 12:15:54 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor, or
likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

The classic 'asset rich, money poor' situation. We are sitting on
assets well in advance of £1m but, although we're not broke by any
means, we're not rolling in money.

--
Chris Green
·

Tim Streater

2024-09-14 13:33:07 UTC

Post by Chris Green

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor, or
likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

The classic 'asset rich, money poor' situation. We are sitting on
assets well in advance of £1m but, although we're not broke by any
means, we're not rolling in money.

The rise in population since I was a boy is about 20 million. Plenty enough to
absorb almost *all* the housebuilding possible during the last 60 years. Small
wonder that houses continue to be a safe asset, with their book value a very
misleading indicator. A serious reduction in migration (legal/illegal) is
required to reduce this trend, so that more resource can be put to fixing up
the housing stock we have, or replacing the rubbish with better.

--
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf

JNugent

2024-09-17 16:36:41 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor, or
likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

A million pounds is bugger all these days, especially in the SE of England.

David Wade

2024-09-17 17:38:54 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

The road fuel tax will be targeted at pensioners first. The better
off who worked hard and saved for their retirement are most likely to
vote Tory. So get them all killed off sooner so they can't vote the
"wrong way" next time.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor, or
likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

according to yougov research:-

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49978-how-britain-voted-in-the-2024-general-election

Of those over 70 that actually voted, 20% voted Labour, 42% conservative

Post by JNugent
A million pounds is bugger all these days, especially in the SE of England.

True. Cheshire is similar..

Dave

Andrew

2024-09-19 19:50:26 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

The road fuel tax will be targeted at pensioners first. The better
off who worked hard and saved for their retirement are most likely to
vote Tory. So get them all killed off sooner so they can't vote the
"wrong way" next time.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor, or
likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

A million pounds is bugger all these days, especially in the SE of England.

Who made it 'worth' a million pounds ?.

Certainly NOT the owner

Joe

2024-09-19 20:39:55 UTC

On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 20:50:26 +0100

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

The road fuel tax will be targeted at pensioners first. The
better off who worked hard and saved for their retirement are
most likely to vote Tory. So get them all killed off sooner so
they can't vote the "wrong way" next time.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all
poor, or likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

A million pounds is bugger all these days, especially in the SE of England.

Who made it 'worth' a million pounds ?.
Certainly NOT the owner

It is, of course, not worth a penny until someone comes along willing
to buy it. The buyer then decides what it is worth, which will usually
depend on what a bank is willing to lend him. Much of the house price
inflation has been caused by the progressively loosening lending
policies.

--
Joe

Tim Streater

2024-09-19 21:21:35 UTC

Post by Joe
On Thu, 19 Sep 2024 20:50:26 +0100

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

The road fuel tax will be targeted at pensioners first. The
better off who worked hard and saved for their retirement are
most likely to vote Tory. So get them all killed off sooner so
they can't vote the "wrong way" next time.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all
poor, or likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

A million pounds is bugger all these days, especially in the SE of England.

Who made it 'worth' a million pounds ?.
Certainly NOT the owner

No, it's been caused by population inflation. From 50M to ~70M in the last 50
years. That's around 400k a year. Difficult for house building to keep up with
that.

--
For me leaving the EU has always been a fundamental if abstract question of democratic accountability: disliking a transnational government it's impossible to kick out.

Iain Martin - The Times 24/11/2022

JNugent

2024-09-19 22:24:04 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

The road fuel tax will be targeted at pensioners first. The better
off who worked hard and saved for their retirement are most likely
to vote Tory. So get them all killed off sooner so they can't vote
the "wrong way" next time.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor,
or likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

A million pounds is bugger all these days, especially in the SE of England.

Who made it 'worth' a million pounds ?.
Certainly NOT the owner

Well, quite.

So tax those who bid it up to whatever the price now would be.

As you say, that wasn't the owner.

HVS

2024-09-13 12:33:23 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.

Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

2024-09-13 13:03:41 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It was a
great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as hardly anyone
had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads, and the money needs
to be raised somehow.

Jim the Geordie

2024-09-13 13:48:13 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to do
with road repairs?

--
Jim the Geordie

HVS

2024-09-13 13:54:18 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of
how to replace fuel tax when electric takes over from
petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to
charge and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat
rate or different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle.Â
(Wear and tear on roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger
electric vehicles with more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It
was a great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as
hardly anyone had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads,
and the money needs to be raised somehow.

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to
do with road repairs?

That rings a bell for road tax; I don't know whether fuel duty is
the same, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Governments generally
dislike hypothecated taxes, as they prefer not to be restricted on
what they can do with the money.

SteveW

2024-09-15 23:13:41 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of
how to replace fuel tax when electric takes over from
petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to
charge and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat
rate or different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle.
(Wear and tear on roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger
electric vehicles with more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It
was a great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as
hardly anyone had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads,
and the money needs to be raised somehow.

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to
do with road repairs?

It all goes into the general pot and only a portion is spent on
transport and even that is divided between roads, buses and trains.

The government collects £35bn poer year just from VED and fuel duty
(ignoring insurance tax, VAT on purchase, repairs, etc. and spends about
£12bn per year on roads.

mm0fmf

2024-09-13 15:10:39 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It was
a great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as hardly
anyone had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads, and the
money needs to be raised somehow.

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to do
with road repairs?

There is no such tax as Road Tax. There was in 1921 and for years it
existed to fund roads and road maintenance. It is now called Vehicle
Excise Duty, VED and is a tax for having a vehicle. It's been called VED
for a long, long time. The money raised just goes to The Exchequer to be
used for whatever the current bint sees fit.

JNugent

2024-09-13 19:03:27 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It was
a great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as hardly
anyone had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads, and the
money needs to be raised somehow.

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to do
with road repairs?

There is no such tax as Road Tax. There was in 1921 and for years it
existed to fund roads and road maintenance. It is now called Vehicle
Excise Duty, VED and is a tax for having a vehicle.

There is no tax for having / possessing a vehicle.

None at all.

The tax is for the right to use it on the roads: Road Tax.

It's been called VED
for a long, long time.

Today, the orforrities call it Vehicle Tax.

The money raised just goes to The Exchequer to be
used for whatever the current bint sees fit.

SteveW

2024-09-15 23:15:14 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It
was a great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as hardly
anyone had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads, and the
money needs to be raised somehow.

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to do
with road repairs?

There is no such tax as Road Tax. There was in 1921 and for years it
existed to fund roads and road maintenance. It is now called Vehicle
Excise Duty, VED and is a tax for having a vehicle.

There is no tax for having / possessing a vehicle.
None at all.
The tax is for the right to use it on the roads: Road Tax.

If you do not have off-road parking, then you are taxed for having it,
even if you do not use it at all - as you can'y leave an untaxed vehicle
on the road at all.

JNugent

2024-09-15 23:38:15 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It
was a great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as
hardly anyone had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads,
and the money needs to be raised somehow.

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to do
with road repairs?

There is no such tax as Road Tax. There was in 1921 and for years it
existed to fund roads and road maintenance. It is now called Vehicle
Excise Duty, VED and is a tax for having a vehicle.

There is no tax for having / possessing a vehicle.
None at all.
The tax is for the right to use it on the roads: Road Tax.

If you do not have off-road parking, then you are taxed for having it,
even if you do not use it at all - as you can'y leave an untaxed vehicle
on the road at all.

Leaving a vehicle on the road IS using the road.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

JNugent

2024-09-15 23:39:11 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

Weight of vehicle makes sense, as it's pretty straightforward. It
was a great gesture, not to tax electric vehicles, as long as
hardly anyone had them. But, we still need to maintain the roads,
and the money needs to be raised somehow.

I read somewhere that Road Tax does not actually have anything to do
with road repairs?

There is no such tax as Road Tax. There was in 1921 and for years it
existed to fund roads and road maintenance. It is now called Vehicle
Excise Duty, VED and is a tax for having a vehicle.

There is no tax for having / possessing a vehicle.
None at all.
The tax is for the right to use it on the roads: Road Tax.

If you do not have off-road parking, then you are taxed for having it,
even if you do not use it at all - as you can'y leave an untaxed vehicle
on the road at all.

Already answered.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 13:39:19 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

Joe

2024-09-13 14:03:52 UTC

On Fri, 13 Sep 2024 14:39:19 +0100

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of
how to replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to
charge and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat
rate or different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear
and tear on roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric
vehicles with more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

No way, that's far too simple and there's no money in it for 'lobbying'
companies. They will want to charge differently according to which road
is used, and which area, and which time of day and day of the week.
There will be an attempt to charge depending on the political colour of
the area.

It will be found necessary for every vehicle to carry a tracker, at the
owner's expense, of course.

--
Joe

Andrew

2024-09-13 14:48:22 UTC

Post by Joe
On Fri, 13 Sep 2024 14:39:19 +0100

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of
how to replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to
charge and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat
rate or different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear
and tear on roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric
vehicles with more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

No way, that's far too simple and there's no money in it for 'lobbying'
companies. They will want to charge differently according to which road
is used, and which area, and which time of day and day of the week.
There will be an attempt to charge depending on the political colour of
the area.
It will be found necessary for every vehicle to carry a tracker, at the
owner's expense, of course.

What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

alan_m

2024-09-13 15:22:46 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:01:57 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

Or left at home when driving

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken

charles

2024-09-13 16:15:02 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

Or left at home when driving

but the AA & RAC will,now only accept email calls for assistance.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:25:03 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

Or left at home when driving

but the AA & RAC will,now only accept email calls for assistance.

Carry a burner phone for that. Bought with cash and a prepaid PAYG SIM,
which you throw away when its expired.

Nothing illegal in that.

--
Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
– Will Durant

Andrew

2024-09-17 18:21:58 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

Or left at home when driving

but the AA & RAC will,now only accept email calls for assistance.

Carry a burner phone for that. Bought with cash and a prepaid PAYG SIM,
which you throw away when its expired.

You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-17 18:48:23 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

Or left at home when driving

but the AA & RAC will,now only accept email calls for assistance.

Carry a burner phone for that. Bought with cash and a prepaid PAYG
SIM, which you throw away when its expired.

You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

I've got one in my phone

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
..I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

Andrew

2024-09-19 19:42:45 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

Or left at home when driving

but the AA & RAC will,now only accept email calls for assistance.

Carry a burner phone for that. Bought with cash and a prepaid PAYG
SIM, which you throw away when its expired.

You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

I've got one in my phone

yOu won't get one any longer as a new customer

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-20 08:13:14 UTC

Post by Andrew
What percentage of people have a smart phone ?. These people are
already being tracked, apart from all the ANPR cameras along
motorways and main roads.

Mobile phones can be anonymous with no link between a car and the phone
and no link between a physical address and the phone.

Or left at home when driving

but the AA & RAC will,now only accept email calls for assistance.

Carry a burner phone for that. Bought with cash and a prepaid PAYG
SIM, which you throw away when its expired.

You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

I've got one in my phone

yOu won't get one any longer as a new customer

They are still available. Walk into any 3 mobile shop and ask for a PAYG
sim with some prepaid minutes on it and a number. Pay cash

--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

alan_m

2024-09-17 19:49:54 UTC

Post by Andrew
You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

I could get one tomorrow without trying hard.

"You can buy giffgaff SIM cards in supermarkets, newsagents, convenience
stores and filling stations priced at £1 or less. For example… Iceland,
Heron Foods, Tesco, Asda, Co-op, Sainsbury's, Aldi, Martin's, McColl's,
Morrisons, One Stop, B&M Stores and Home Bargains all sell giffgaff SIM
cards."

You can buy Giffgaff credit vouchers (or O2 credit vouchers) at
supermarkets for cash and then use these vouchers to put the credit on
the phone.

Even if you have to have a giff gaff web account there is no need to
give any genuine personal details, only a user name and password.

Thee are unlocked phones available for the £10 mark. I have one I leave
permanently in the car witha GG PAYG sim card. GG PAYG credit doesn't
have an expiry date.

I'm sure that you easily would be able to achieve the same on other
networks.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-18 09:44:55 UTC

Post by Andrew
You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

I could get one tomorrow without trying hard.
"You can buy giffgaff SIM cards in supermarkets, newsagents, convenience
stores and filling stations priced at £1 or less. For example… Iceland,
Heron Foods, Tesco, Asda, Co-op, Sainsbury's, Aldi, Martin's, McColl's,
Morrisons, One Stop, B&M Stores and Home Bargains all sell giffgaff SIM
cards."
You can buy Giffgaff credit vouchers (or O2 credit vouchers) at
supermarkets for cash and then use these vouchers to put the credit on
the phone.
Even if you have to have a giff gaff web account there is no need to
give any genuine personal details, only a user name and password.
Thee are unlocked phones available for the £10 mark. I have one I leave
permanently in the car witha GG PAYG sim card. GG PAYG credit doesn't
have an expiry date.
I'm sure that you easily would be able to achieve the same on other
networks.

I checked with Three.

You can buy a PAYG sim with some data use bundled with a phone at any
Three mobile store and you don't have to give your correct name and
address and you can use cash.

Likewise topups can be had using cash bought vouchers

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

JNugent

2024-09-18 15:00:36 UTC

Post by Andrew
You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

I could get one tomorrow without trying hard.
"You can buy giffgaff SIM cards in supermarkets, newsagents,
convenience stores and filling stations priced at £1 or less. For
example… Iceland, Heron Foods, Tesco, Asda, Co-op, Sainsbury's, Aldi,
Martin's, McColl's, Morrisons, One Stop, B&M Stores and Home Bargains
all sell giffgaff SIM cards."
You can buy Giffgaff credit vouchers (or O2 credit vouchers) at
supermarkets for cash and then use these vouchers to put the credit on
the phone.
Even if you have to have a giff gaff web account there is no need to
give any genuine personal details, only a user name and password.
Thee are unlocked phones available for the £10 mark. I have one I
leave permanently in the car witha GG PAYG sim card. GG PAYG credit
doesn't have an expiry date.
I'm sure that you easily would be able to achieve the same on other
networks.

I checked with Three.
You can buy a PAYG sim with some data use bundled with a phone at any
Three mobile store and you don't have to give your correct name and
address and you can use cash.

Correct. And they will work in the USA with about 10Gb of data for a
month (which means you don't really need telephony while there).

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Likewise topups can be had using cash bought vouchers

alan_m

2024-09-17 19:59:22 UTC

Post by Andrew
You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

If you cannot get a burner phone and sim take a leaf out of someone
else's book and get an exploding pager

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyl9048gx8t

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-18 09:45:51 UTC

Post by Andrew
You are 15+ years out of date. That type of PAYG sim hasn't been
available to new customers for yonks.

If you cannot get a burner phone and sim take a leaf out of someone
else's book and get an exploding pager
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyl9048gx8t

They seem to be the new fashion

"Is that a pager in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

mm0fmf

2024-09-13 15:16:45 UTC

Post by Joe
It will be found necessary for every vehicle to carry a tracker

Because having mandatary tracking of the population's movement is a
politician's wet dream. There's so much more that can be tagged on to
that data than just car mileage charges.

How long till the new goons try to resurrect mandatary ID cards?
Electronic of course with the software provided by the usual suspects
like Fujitsu or Crapita.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:07:08 UTC

Post by Joe
It will be found necessary for every vehicle to carry a tracker

Because having mandatary tracking of the population's movement is a
politician's wet dream. There's so much more that can be tagged on to
that data than just car mileage charges.
How long till the new goons try to resurrect mandatary ID cards?
Electronic of course with the software provided by the usual suspects
like Fujitsu or Crapita.

Identity cards would slash illegal immigration. No ID card. No access to
benefits, the NHS, bank account, anything. Except jail

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

Joe

2024-09-13 19:43:03 UTC

On Fri, 13 Sep 2024 17:07:08 +0100

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Identity cards would slash illegal immigration. No ID card. No access
to benefits, the NHS, bank account, anything. Except jail

I fear that you believe the government (any colour) actually wants to
stop it. If ID cards were to exist, they would simply be handed out to
anyone arriving from across the Channel.

--
Joe

mm0fmf

2024-09-13 23:00:53 UTC

Post by Joe
On Fri, 13 Sep 2024 17:07:08 +0100

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Identity cards would slash illegal immigration. No ID card. No access
to benefits, the NHS, bank account, anything. Except jail

I fear that you believe the government (any colour) actually wants to
stop it. If ID cards were to exist, they would simply be handed out to
anyone arriving from across the Channel.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-14 01:41:17 UTC

Post by Joe
On Fri, 13 Sep 2024 17:07:08 +0100

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Identity cards would slash illegal immigration. No ID card. No access
to benefits, the NHS, bank account, anything. Except jail

I fear that you believe the government (any colour) actually wants to
stop it. If ID cards were to exist, they would simply be handed out to
anyone arriving from across the Channel.

Maybe.
I think they would have a hard time justifying that, though

--
Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
– Will Durant

SteveW

2024-09-15 23:18:29 UTC

Post by Joe
It will be found necessary for every vehicle to carry a tracker

Because having mandatary tracking of the population's movement is a
politician's wet dream. There's so much more that can be tagged on to
that data than just car mileage charges.
How long till the new goons try to resurrect mandatary ID cards?
Electronic of course with the software provided by the usual suspects
like Fujitsu or Crapita.

Identity cards would slash illegal immigration. No ID card. No access to
benefits, the NHS, bank account, anything. Except jail

I do not want to have to carry a card with me, but I have no objection
to a database, with my details and a photo, so I can be identified if
needed - I effectively have that already as I have both a passport and a
driving licence and will be on both databases.

Tim Streater

2024-09-13 17:23:33 UTC

Post by Joe
It will be found necessary for every vehicle to carry a tracker

Because having mandatary tracking of the population's movement is a
politician's wet dream. There's so much more that can be tagged on to
that data than just car mileage charges.
How long till the new goons try to resurrect mandatary ID cards?
Electronic of course with the software provided by the usual suspects
like Fujitsu or Crapita.

They're already talking about that, supposedly to help with the boat people.

--
"Once you adopt the unix paradigm, the variants cease to be a problem - you bitch, of course, but that's because bitching is fun, unlike M$ OS's, where bitching is required to keep your head from exploding." - S Stremler in afc

Andrew

2024-09-13 14:46:18 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

How do they know what mileage you do in the first 3 years of the
vehicles life ?

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:01:15 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

How do they know what mileage you do in the first 3 years of the
vehicles life ?

The odometer
Afetr three years they can adjust your bill..

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken

alan_m

2024-09-13 15:19:55 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

A couple of potential problems

The first MOT is after 3 years.

If you purchase a second hand car you may/will be paying for someone
else's mileage.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

charles

2024-09-13 15:45:03 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

A couple of potential problems
The first MOT is after 3 years.
If you purchase a second hand car you may/will be paying for someone
else's mileage.

That would be reflected in the price you paid.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:08:01 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

A couple of potential problems
The first MOT is after 3 years.
If you purchase a second hand car you may/will be paying for someone
else's mileage.

3rd party check on the registration document at resale to ensure correct
mileage

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

Andrew

2024-09-17 18:24:28 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

A couple of potential problems
The first MOT is after 3 years.
If you purchase a second hand car you may/will be paying for someone
else's mileage.

3rd party check on the registration document at resale to ensure correct
mileage

Modern cars are easy peezy to clock with laptop and software.

jon

2024-09-13 16:11:03 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they
try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how
to replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

A couple of potential problems
The first MOT is after 3 years.
If you purchase a second hand car you may/will be paying for someone
else's mileage.

Have a tachograph.

Ian Jackson

2024-09-13 19:27:24 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will
they try pay per mile.

Apart from an annual road tax, there's presumably a big issue of how to
replace fuel tax when electric takes over from petrol/diesel.
Pay per mile makes sense if they can figure out a simple way to charge
and collect it, and whether the charges should be a flat rate or
different depending on, say, the weight of vehicle. (Wear and tear on
roads must surely be worse for heavier/larger electric vehicles with
more or more powerful batteries).

MOT records mileage. They simple direct debit you based on last years
figures.

A couple of potential problems
The first MOT is after 3 years.

At the end of each of the first two years, a 'no-test MOT' simply for
your mileage to be recorded and submitted?

Post by alan_m
If you purchase a second hand car you may/will be paying for someone
else's mileage.

When the car is changing hands, again a 'no-test MOT' simply for your
mileage to be recorded and submitted?

# It all makes (a little bit more) work for the working man to do.#
https://shorturl.at/qMilH

--
Ian
Aims and ambitions are neither attainments nor achievements

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 13:37:41 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.
Then they will make sure that old cars pay double a new electric car,
just to signal some *extra* virtue and keep car manufactures happy.

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

Andy Burns

2024-09-13 14:04:17 UTC

Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in and
since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 14:23:47 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

It is extremely hard to do.

And would probably cost more than the tax saved.
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

SteveW

2024-09-15 23:24:37 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

It is extremely hard to do.
And would probably cost more than the tax saved.

It is very, very easy. My kit-car has an electronic speedo/odometer and
already has an under-daash switch to turn it off for trackdays, so as
not to eat into my on-road, insurance mileage allowance. My Land Rover
has a mechanical one, that someone has already zeroed before I bought it.

There are already businesses that will adjust your mileage for more
modern cars.

alan_m

2024-09-16 08:07:50 UTC

Post by SteveW

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

It is extremely hard to do.
And would probably cost more than the tax saved.

It is very, very easy. My kit-car has an electronic speedo/odometer and
already has an under-daash switch to turn it off for trackdays, so as
not to eat into my on-road, insurance mileage allowance. My Land Rover
has a mechanical one, that someone has already zeroed before I bought it.
There are already businesses that will adjust your mileage for more
modern cars.

There are "instructional" videos on Youtube showing what you need and
how to do it. However there is some debate about only being able to
increase the mileage and not decrease it. The facility is provided for
when an odemeter/dash cluster is replaced and the odeometer reading
needs to match the old reading.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Andrew

2024-09-17 18:25:09 UTC

Post by SteveW

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

It is extremely hard to do.
And would probably cost more than the tax saved.

It is very, very easy.

+1000

Post by SteveW
There are already businesses that will adjust your mileage for more
modern cars.

Andrew

2024-09-13 14:51:10 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

No need for the first three years of a vehicles life, and modern
cars can have their mileage altered extremely easily.

It's all historic though, HMRC will want real-time data of
vehicle movements to cater for demand pricing, so the MOT
reading is a bit useless.

Andy Burns

2024-09-13 14:58:18 UTC

modern cars can have their mileage altered extremely easily.

That's what I was led to believe, a little OBD-II box, presumably from a
bloke down the pub, can do odometer <cough>correction</cough>

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:05:38 UTC

modern cars can have their mileage altered extremely easily.

That's what I was led to believe, a little OBD-II box, presumably from a
bloke down the pub, can do odometer <cough>correction</cough>

Never saw that option on my scanner

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-09-13 16:05:10 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

No need for the first three years of a vehicles life, and modern
cars can have their mileage altered extremely easily.

I love a bit of proof by assertion in the afternnon

AFAIK its extremely hard. Board level access to a chip that may not have
a reset function

Post by Andrew
It's all historic though, HMRC will want real-time data of
vehicle movements to cater for demand pricing, so the MOT
reading is a bit useless.

What HMRC wants and what is actually possible are two different things

Lefties love to cat-bell

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken

Theo

2024-09-17 17:03:27 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

odometer tampering will become more of a thing ...

No need for the first three years of a vehicles life, and modern
cars can have their mileage altered extremely easily.

I love a bit of proof by assertion in the afternnon
AFAIK its extremely hard. Board level access to a chip that may not have
a reset function

You just fit a mileage blocker to stop it being recorded in the first place.
Freely on sale:
https://mileage-blocker.co.uk/mileage-blocker/

They come with a hidden enable switch so you can still clock up miles, but
'more slowly'.

They're typically used for people who have cars on a limited mileage lease
and want to stay within the lease terms without paying hefty overage fees.

It's possible to get the true mileage by interrogating some of the ECUs (eg
number of revolutions of the wheels may be stored in the ABS ECU) but that
takes forensic analysis.

Theo

JNugent

2024-09-13 14:16:30 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in and
since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

Only from when the vehicle (in the case of a private car or van) is
three years old.

Something would be needed to bridge that gap.

Well, unless the three years' mileage were all charged for on the car's
third birthday or thereabouts.

Then they will make sure that old cars pay double a new electric car,
just to signal some *extra* virtue and keep car manufactures happy.

SteveW

2024-09-15 23:27:37 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

Pay per mile - which is after all a fair tax - will probably come in
and since MOTs record mileage, should not be hard to police.

Only from when the vehicle (in the case of a private car or van) is
three years old.
Something would be needed to bridge that gap.
Well, unless the three years' mileage were all charged for on the car's
third birthday or thereabouts.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Then they will make sure that old cars pay double a new electric car,
just to signal some *extra* virtue and keep car manufactures happy.

I fuel duty were abolished, I would not object to a box that recorded my
mileage and reported it every week - as long as a) it did not record
location, time/date, b) charge was flat rate and not punishing people
for having to travel on busy roads, at peak times and c) was revenue
neutral and not a con to raise extra money from motorists.

alan_m

2024-09-16 08:44:25 UTC

Post by SteveW
I fuel duty were abolished, I would not object to a box that recorded my
mileage and reported it every week - as long as a) it did not record
location, time/date, b) charge was flat rate and not punishing people
for having to travel on busy roads, at peak times and c) was revenue
neutral and not a con to raise extra money from motorists.

You may want the location and time to be recorded if there is any
possibility of your car/box being cloned and you getting charged for
someone else's travel. Without this information it may be like having
an anonymous debit on your credit/debit card bill.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

nib

2024-09-13 13:48:12 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

I thought EVs were already scheduled for 190£ from April next year,
that's what I'm expecting, up from zero this year.

nib

JNugent

2024-09-13 14:24:26 UTC

Post by nib

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

I thought EVs were already scheduled for 190£ from April next year,
that's what I'm expecting, up from zero this year.

That would not be enough. As a flat rate solution, the annual Road Tax
for EVs would need to be measured in thousands of pounds in order to
make up the "lost" fuel duty plus VAT (with an allowance for the 5% VAT
on domestic fuel) with an amount for Road Tax on top of that.

Jethro_uk

2024-09-13 16:43:15 UTC

Post by nib

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they
try pay per mile.

I thought EVs were already scheduled for 190£ from April next year,
that's what I'm expecting, up from zero this year.

With the steam running out of the EV bandwagon, that may be a temporary
problem.

Jim GM4DHJ ...

2024-09-14 14:02:09 UTC

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

can't be enough

Anonymous

2024-09-15 16:22:36 UTC

Post by Chris Green

Post by jon
I wonder what the rise in road tax will be for 'E Cars' or will they try
pay per mile.

According to a report today, 27% of people over the age of 65 have
assets, including their house, worth over £1m. We are not all poor, or
likely to vote for the Conservatives either.

The classic 'asset rich, money poor' situation. We are sitting on
assets well in advance of £1m but, although we're not broke by any
means, we're not rolling in money.

We, the civilised world need to solve the worlds problem: ALL your lot from e Europe to the trillionth cousin
will be eliminated then e Europe carpet nuked. Easy as that.
Your lot invaded over the past few centuries and the free world has had enough if it.

Jim GM4DHJ ...

2024-09-16 11:59:57 UTC

Post by Anonymous

Post by Chris Green