Creeping gutters

[Tim Watts]

I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.

These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).

In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.

I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.

But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

[Tim Lamb]

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several
times a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler
might work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

I've done this with some of mine. Small stainless woodscrew locking one
end to the joiner.

Last guttering put up here by a builder had a white interior finish. I
can't say if it helps as it is not in a sunny position.

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

It doesn't sound like your supplier was very good at sourcing architecturally sound products. Maybe the environmental conditions are different where they are made these days although as far as I know China is still above ground.

[Tim Watts]

Post by Weatherlawyer

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

It doesn't sound like your supplier was very good at sourcing architecturally sound products. Maybe the environmental conditions are different where they are made these days although as far as I know China is still above ground.

Brett Martin are a major UK manufacturer:

http://www.brettmartin.com/en-gb/plumbing-and-drainage/products/rainwater-systems.aspx

Mine's the 106 deep ogee...


It might be more accurate to say "plastic gutters are crap", but the
effort in putting metal up is much higher... And I needed high flow
gutters as the drains are around the back.

[Bob Minchin]

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

You could try a bit of silicone lubricant as an experiment.
There is clearly some sort of ratchet action going on as the gutter
expands and contracts.
Another thought: if you put a small screw through the outer end of some
of the clips into the edge of the gutter, the clips might act as a bit
of spring assistance to re-closed the joints on contraction maybe??
idea 3: how about notching the gutter at the ends where the coupling
clips sit to the joint can slide but not slide out. Possibly in
combination with lubricating the seals.

Bob

[Tim Watts]

Post by Bob Minchin

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

You could try a bit of silicone lubricant as an experiment.
There is clearly some sort of ratchet action going on as the gutter
expands and contracts.
Another thought: if you put a small screw through the outer end of some
of the clips into the edge of the gutter, the clips might act as a bit
of spring assistance to re-closed the joints on contraction maybe??
idea 3: how about notching the gutter at the ends where the coupling
clips sit to the joint can slide but not slide out. Possibly in
combination with lubricating the seals.
Bob

The notching idea sounds like an idea - thanks for that :)

I think a bit of plumbers grease might be a good idea. The other problem
with ogee is that the flat bits are not very flat anymore, so the seals
are not perfect. Bit of grease should help that too.

[John Rumm]

Post by Bob Minchin
idea 3: how about notching the gutter at the ends where the coupling
clips sit to the joint can slide but not slide out. Possibly in
combination with lubricating the seals.

Yup, small notches cut[1] into the top edge of the gutter such that the
clips will clip in slightly easier, but are also then prevented from
moving to the side much. It seems to be a common solution.

[1] Half inch file would probably do the job nicely.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Phil L]

Post by John Rumm

Post by Bob Minchin
idea 3: how about notching the gutter at the ends where the coupling
clips sit to the joint can slide but not slide out. Possibly in
combination with lubricating the seals.

Yup, small notches cut[1] into the top edge of the gutter such that
the clips will clip in slightly easier, but are also then prevented
from moving to the side much. It seems to be a common solution.
[1] Half inch file would probably do the job nicely.

Stopping a gutter from expanding and contracting isn't a good idea, it's
still going to do it, but if notched out like this, it will simply pull
itself out of the joint / outlet / corner. If it's notched at both ends so
that it's fixed tight, it will snap the clip off the fascia.

[Tim Lamb]

Post by Phil L

Post by John Rumm

Post by Bob Minchin
idea 3: how about notching the gutter at the ends where the coupling
clips sit to the joint can slide but not slide out. Possibly in
combination with lubricating the seals.

Yup, small notches cut[1] into the top edge of the gutter such that
the clips will clip in slightly easier, but are also then prevented
from moving to the side much. It seems to be a common solution.
[1] Half inch file would probably do the job nicely.

Stopping a gutter from expanding and contracting isn't a good idea, it's
still going to do it, but if notched out like this, it will simply pull
itself out of the joint / outlet / corner. If it's notched at both ends so
that it's fixed tight, it will snap the clip off the fascia.

I suppose you could make an assessment of temperature/expansion and file
the slot with that in mind. I think fixing one end only safer and then
only where this is a regular problem.

[Tim Watts]

Post by Phil L

Post by John Rumm

Post by Bob Minchin
idea 3: how about notching the gutter at the ends where the coupling
clips sit to the joint can slide but not slide out. Possibly in
combination with lubricating the seals.

Yup, small notches cut[1] into the top edge of the gutter such that
the clips will clip in slightly easier, but are also then prevented
from moving to the side much. It seems to be a common solution.
[1] Half inch file would probably do the job nicely.

Stopping a gutter from expanding and contracting isn't a good idea, it's
still going to do it, but if notched out like this, it will simply pull
itself out of the joint / outlet / corner. If it's notched at both ends so
that it's fixed tight, it will snap the clip off the fascia.

I understood the original suggestion to make the notch wider (by about
5mm either side I reckon) so it can slide, but there are definite limits...

[John Rumm]

Post by Phil L

Post by John Rumm

Post by Bob Minchin
idea 3: how about notching the gutter at the ends where the coupling
clips sit to the joint can slide but not slide out. Possibly in
combination with lubricating the seals.

Yup, small notches cut[1] into the top edge of the gutter such that
the clips will clip in slightly easier, but are also then prevented
from moving to the side much. It seems to be a common solution.
[1] Half inch file would probably do the job nicely.

Stopping a gutter from expanding and contracting isn't a good idea, it's
still going to do it, but if notched out like this, it will simply pull
itself out of the joint / outlet / corner. If it's notched at both ends so
that it's fixed tight, it will snap the clip off the fascia.

I have seen it done many times, and its not been a problem. The notch is
a little wider than the clip, and the clip has some lateral give in it,
so it can still expand and contract, its just much harder to pull right
apart or "walk" itself persistently in one direction.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Phil L]

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering
(non round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several
times a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler
might work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

It's the clips.

The clips they make nowadays are hardly touching the gutter - they have
small pea-sized extrusions on the inside so that the gutter, when clipped
in, is only touching the clip in 3 one mm spots, this allows the gutter to
move more freely.

see here:

http://www.drainagecentral.co.uk/Prostyle-PVCu-Gutter-Fascia-Bracket-BR083

These are for ogee but not sure if they're deepflow

[Tim Watts]

Post by Phil L

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering
(non round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several
times a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler
might work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

It's the clips.
The clips they make nowadays are hardly touching the gutter - they have
small pea-sized extrusions on the inside so that the gutter, when clipped
in, is only touching the clip in 3 one mm spots, this allows the gutter to
move more freely.
http://www.drainagecentral.co.uk/Prostyle-PVCu-Gutter-Fascia-Bracket-BR083
These are for ogee but not sure if they're deepflow

Those are the ones I have - Prostyle...

[harry]

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

Incorrect installation.
One end (or the middle) needs to be anchored, the other end(s) free to move with expansion.
As long as one end is anchored, it goes back to it's starting point when it contracts..

[Andrew Gabriel]

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

Take it part and clean it, particularly the rubber seals which may
have collected grit. You might need to replace the rubber - some
guttering models have replacement rubbers available, otherwise buy
whatever is the cheapest fitting and either swap the rubbers or
swap the whole fitting.

Grease the rubbers with silicone grease on assembly so the joints
slide easily as they expand and contract. Couplers should be fixed
to facia and spaced such that the gutter will never contract far
enough to drop out. You might be able to find an installation
leaflet online to tell you what that distance is for your model
of gutter using standard guttering lengths.

[Tim Watts]

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

Take it part and clean it, particularly the rubber seals which may
have collected grit. You might need to replace the rubber - some
guttering models have replacement rubbers available, otherwise buy
whatever is the cheapest fitting and either swap the rubbers or
swap the whole fitting.
Grease the rubbers with silicone grease on assembly so the joints
slide easily as they expand and contract. Couplers should be fixed
to facia and spaced such that the gutter will never contract far
enough to drop out. You might be able to find an installation
leaflet online to tell you what that distance is for your model
of gutter using standard guttering lengths.

Hi Andrew,

Apart from the grease, I did do most of that. There's a mark on the
couplers that shows where the cut end should come - it is 10mm from a
stop ridge to allow for expansion.

Perhaps what's happening is that I only sprayed silicone lubricant on
rather than grease - and the end stop ridge is not very big so the
gutter can get past it.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Post by Tim Watts

Post by Andrew Gabriel
Take it part and clean it, particularly the rubber seals which may
have collected grit. You might need to replace the rubber - some
guttering models have replacement rubbers available, otherwise buy
whatever is the cheapest fitting and either swap the rubbers or
swap the whole fitting.
Grease the rubbers with silicone grease on assembly so the joints
slide easily as they expand and contract. Couplers should be fixed
to facia and spaced such that the gutter will never contract far
enough to drop out. You might be able to find an installation
leaflet online to tell you what that distance is for your model
of gutter using standard guttering lengths.

Hi Andrew,
Apart from the grease, I did do most of that. There's a mark on the
couplers that shows where the cut end should come - it is 10mm from a
stop ridge to allow for expansion.
Perhaps what's happening is that I only sprayed silicone lubricant on
rather than grease - and the end stop ridge is not very big so the
gutter can get past it.

Silcone spray should be fine.
If you assemble just using the guide markers, the guttering is at an
unknown percentage of its max expansion. If it was at, say, 100% of
its max expansion, it should really be assembled with the guttering
to the stop ridge. OK, this is unlikely as it would be rather hot to
handle, but you get the idea.

I suspect max expansion depends on colour too. My brother had some
black half-round guttering fitted, but it's white inside, which is
to reduce the solar gain and expansion.

[Brian Gaff]

It will just end up rusty and leaking.
Sounds like a bit of bad design to me. Can they be glued to the brackets
that support them with something suitable?
Brian
--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!

I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long (6m)
straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal expansion
and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times a year and
the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering if
a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

[Muddymike]

Post by Tim Watts
I'm getting a lot of trouble with two sections of gutters - the long
(6m) straight sections down 2 sides of the house.
These are made up of 2x 3m lengths of Brett deep plastic guttering (non
round, more of a stepped square high flow).
In the summer, one piece on each side walks along due to thermal
expansion and contraction. One side comes out of its joint several times
a year and the other managed 3 years in service until it popped.
I could replace both sides with sections with shorter bits and more joints.
But I was wondering if there were any other solutions? I was wondering
if a small screw through one end of the joint to the fixed coupler might
work - or whether that would just end up cracking the plastic.

No such problems with our continuous aluminium gutters.

Mike