Discussion:
Fire retardant ,materials and old furniture.
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The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-27 17:09:43 UTC
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Chapter and verse

https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/
--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius
Jeff Layman
2025-04-27 17:28:21 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Chapter and verse
https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/
That's useful. Filed for reference.

If I put my pedant hat on, isn't point 1 of the summary worded oddly:
"Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"

Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition
requirements"?
--
Jeff
Davey
2025-04-28 18:16:53 UTC
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On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 18:28:21 +0100
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Chapter and verse
https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/
That's useful. Filed for reference.
"Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"
Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition
requirements"?
That's like Flammable and Inflammable.
--
Davey.
Brian
2025-04-29 18:32:27 UTC
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Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Chapter and verse
https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/
That's useful. Filed for reference.
"Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"
Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition
requirements"?
I vaguely recall something one of my chemistry teachers said - 50 years ago
or so.

Basically, everything will burn - if you get it hot enough.

Of course, in practical terms, the materials used in furnishing need not to
ignite at the kind of temperatures they are likely to be exposed to. I
assume, in broad terms, that is what is specified in the document above.
The Natural Philosopher
2025-04-29 20:02:04 UTC
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Post by Brian
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Chapter and verse
https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/
That's useful. Filed for reference.
"Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"
Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition
requirements"?
I vaguely recall something one of my chemistry teachers said - 50 years ago
or so.
Basically, everything will burn - if you get it hot enough.
Technically no. Burning is a self sustaining exothermic chemical
reaction that usually involves oxygen, either from the air or generated
by the inflammable materials itself (like Li-ion batteries)

Other things melt, decomposed chemically, vaporise or turn to plasma but
they don't burn..
Post by Brian
Of course, in practical terms, the materials used in furnishing need not to
ignite at the kind of temperatures they are likely to be exposed to. I
assume, in broad terms, that is what is specified in the document above.
The big push came IIRC when people were dying of smoke inhalation of
plastic foam fillings. And you got flashovers from that smoke as well
which wer explosive in natiure.

Things like horsehair are not so bad. Nor are feathers.
--
β€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell
Theo
2025-04-30 11:03:10 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Brian
Post by Jeff Layman
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Chapter and verse
https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-regulations-19881989-and-1993/
That's useful. Filed for reference.
"Filling materials must meet specified ignition requirements"
Shouldn't that be "Filling materials must meet specified non-ignition
requirements"?
I vaguely recall something one of my chemistry teachers said - 50 years ago
or so.
Basically, everything will burn - if you get it hot enough.
Technically no. Burning is a self sustaining exothermic chemical
reaction that usually involves oxygen, either from the air or generated
by the inflammable materials itself (like Li-ion batteries)
Other things melt, decomposed chemically, vaporise or turn to plasma but
they don't burn..
Indeed.

Manufactured stuff often burns because it's composed of long carbon chains
from either natural or oil-based origin. Apply enough heat and oxygen and
it because energetically advantageous to break those chains, down to CO2
ultimately.

But take say silica sand - SiO2. It's got enough oxygen already thanks very
much and applying heat is not going to change that - it'll melt and
vapourise but won't burn as there's no energetically advantageous bonds to
break.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Brian
Of course, in practical terms, the materials used in furnishing need not to
ignite at the kind of temperatures they are likely to be exposed to. I
assume, in broad terms, that is what is specified in the document above.
The big push came IIRC when people were dying of smoke inhalation of
plastic foam fillings. And you got flashovers from that smoke as well
which wer explosive in natiure.
I think you can still get those from the foam materials, but the fire
retardants mean the fire is not self-sustaining. If you have an external
source of heat that keeps on being applied (eg a blowtorch or a furnace)
then you'll decompose the foam into toxic/flammable gases, but it's much
harder to get that started with a discarded cigarette than it previously
was.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Things like horsehair are not so bad. Nor are feathers.
Being a natural product the compounds are different. You can still get
flashover from gases from wood pyrolysis, but it takes more than with
oil-based products. OTOH manufactured fire retardants may work better than
the fire retarding properties of natural fibres.

Theo
Andy Burns
2025-05-01 07:59:17 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Chapter and verse
https://www.firesafe.org.uk/furniture-and-furnishings-fire-safety-
regulations-19881989-and-1993/
Changes coming in October

<https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2025/531/made#Legislation-ExNote>
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