Fight With a Cash Machine

[Jeff Gaines]

I withdrew some cash last week from a machine located in the village
Co-Op. Put all the details in then stood there wondering where my cash
was, couldn't see it anywhere. Stepped back and it was hidden under the
top part of the machine, about knee level to me, and I was just in time to
see it gobbled back in to the machine :-(

I needed the cash so went through the process again and managed to get it
before the machine did.

Had an online chat next day with my bank who said don't worry, it should
be refunded within 24-48 hours. Not refunded by Friday so had another chat
who said if it's not back by the end of today call us.

Not back by this morning so 'phoned bank. Spoke to three different people,
all did security checks, no. 2 and no. 3 had no idea why I had called as
they hadn't been told by the previous person. No. 3 seemed to know what
she was doing. Had no idea why I had been told it would re resolved
automatically, can only be resolved through a dispute procedure which she
has now kicked off. It seems that the money will be credited in (up to)
five days but may be re-debited for up to 28 days if the company operating
the machine dispute it.

There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.

When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only got a
£5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in and lodged
a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and admitted the
machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it had been loaded
with. And refunded him.

For myself, I had a machine eat my card once. It was returned with a
letter that apologised for the fault in the machine. I kept that letter
for about 20 years (I may still have it) in case I ever had to rebutt the
banks stance that "our machines don't fail".

[charles]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.
When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only got a
£5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in and lodged
a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and admitted the
machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it had been loaded
with. And refunded him.
For myself, I had a machine eat my card once. It was returned with a
letter that apologised for the fault in the machine. I kept that letter
for about 20 years (I may still have it) in case I ever had to rebutt the
banks stance that "our machines don't fail".

The Horizon system is perfect - in the same way

[Timatmarford]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

Snip

Post by Jethro_uk
For myself, I had a machine eat my card once. It was returned with a
letter that apologised for the fault in the machine. I kept that letter
for about 20 years (I may still have it) in case I ever had to rebutt the
banks stance that "our machines don't fail".

Ha! Happened to me with a car park M/c.
Embossed card and I put it in the wrong way. Finger tips not strong
enough to grip and remove.
Luckily I was able to borrow a pair of pliers from my hairdresser nearby:-)

[Graham.]

Post by Timatmarford

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

Snip

Post by Jethro_uk
For myself, I had a machine eat my card once. It was returned with a
letter that apologised for the fault in the machine. I kept that letter
for about 20 years (I may still have it) in case I ever had to rebutt the
banks stance that "our machines don't fail".

Ha! Happened to me with a car park M/c.
Embossed card and I put it in the wrong way. Finger tips not strong
enough to grip and remove.
Luckily I was able to borrow a pair of pliers from my hairdresser nearby:-)

Ha! indeed.

I worked for an outfit that had maintenance contract for Mercury
payphones. The only time I was called out was on a Sunday morning, I
had to drive from Manchester to Liverpool (or was it Birkenhead?)

The stated problem "customer's credit card stuck in reader", which I
didn't believe, because the mag-stripe was read by manually inserting
and withdrawing the card, it is never out of reach.
I assumed the "customer" has put the card into the separate Mercury
card slot which does ingest the card.

However when I got there, the "customer" was long gone but her card
was still there, and was stuck in the CC slot. I pulled it out with
pliers. It wasn't the embossed lettering that was jamming it, it was a
strategically placed cigarette burn.

I posted the card through her banks letterbox with a note.

[jon]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.
When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only got
a £5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in and
lodged a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and admitted
the machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it had been loaded
with. And refunded him.
For myself, I had a machine eat my card once. It was returned with a
letter that apologised for the fault in the machine. I kept that letter
for about 20 years (I may still have it) in case I ever had to rebutt
the banks stance that "our machines don't fail".

I was in Nanning in China and went to a cash machine, but the machine
didn't pay out, so I went inside the bank and told the guard what had
happened. He informed one of the cashiers who checked the cash machine and
gave me the cash I had requested. When I got home my bank had also
refunded me, but there was no mechanism in place to pay back the extra
money.

[Davey]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 19:03:22 -0000 (UTC)

Post by jon

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is
there? No idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.
When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only
got a £5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in
and lodged a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and
admitted the machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it
had been loaded with. And refunded him.
For myself, I had a machine eat my card once. It was returned with a
letter that apologised for the fault in the machine. I kept that
letter for about 20 years (I may still have it) in case I ever had
to rebutt the banks stance that "our machines don't fail".

I was in Nanning in China and went to a cash machine, but the machine
didn't pay out, so I went inside the bank and told the guard what had
happened. He informed one of the cashiers who checked the cash
machine and gave me the cash I had requested. When I got home my bank
had also refunded me, but there was no mechanism in place to pay back
the extra money.

Darn, I hate it when that happens.

When I was in China, there weren't any cash machines. I had to go to
the Bank of China on Shanghai's Bund, presenting my passbook and a
little form requesting the amount of cash I wanted. I was given a
little slip of paper, a chit, he marked the amount in my passbook, and
then I waited until the chit's number came up on a screen, telling me
which teller to go to. If I had dropped the chit, and somebody had
picked it up, he could have presented it and taken my money. The teller
gave me the cash, and I went on my happy way, with a load of Foreign
Exchange Currency, FEC, in my hand. At the market, it could be
exchanged 2 for 1 for the money that was actually used by the locals,
RMB.

[John Rumm]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.
When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only got a
£5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in and lodged
a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and admitted the
machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it had been loaded
with. And refunded him.
For myself, I had a machine eat my card once. It was returned with a
letter that apologised for the fault in the machine. I kept that letter
for about 20 years (I may still have it) in case I ever had to rebutt the
banks stance that "our machines don't fail".

Had a similar experience once long ago using a machine outside a co-op
bank. Put my card in, and checked my balance which it printed. Would you
like to make another transaction? Yes I thought... it said please
re-insert your card which it had now ejected. I was about to remove and
reinsert the card, when girl friend at the time[1] decided to be helpful
and pushed the card back into the machine. Alas the mechanism did not
seem to allow for this, and it just sat there beeping, asking me to
remove the card. Which was now not sufficiently exposed to actually get
hold of! Eventually it swallowed the card and informed me it had been
retained.

A few days later I got a letter with the card enclosed, and an offer to
be shown how to use a cash machine properly!

[1] Got my revenge - married her, and she has been stuck with me ever since!
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Scott]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 16:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.
When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only got a
£5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in and lodged
a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and admitted the
machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it had been loaded
with. And refunded him.

On that basis, surely your friend should have refunded the bank?

[Jethro_uk]

On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 16:31:07 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk

Post by Scott
On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 16:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there?
No idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.
When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only
got a £5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in
and lodged a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and
admitted the machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it had
been loaded with. And refunded him.

On that basis, surely your friend should have refunded the bank?

?

You are saying that the machine logs showed that the machine had paid
out *more* than it had been loaded with. This in itself hardly supports
your friend's argument that he was underpaid by £5.

No, it proved it.

Machine was loaded with (say) £1,000 (presumably from some sort of
external audit).
Machine says it paid out £1,005 - which was at the point my friend (who
asked for £10) got £5.

You can see where the mistake happened. And so it seemed did the bank.

This was in the mid 1980s when machines were quite primitive. I don't
think it shut down after running out of money - or displayed a message.

The bank was Midland though.

[SteveW]

Post by Jethro_uk

On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 16:31:07 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk

Post by Scott
On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 16:05:03 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there?
No idea what happens if they do dispute it.

The starting position is the machines never malfunction. This was
reported widely in the early 80s when people had problems.
When I was at Uni a friend went to get £10 from a machine, and only
got a £5 note. Luckily the bank was open and he immediately went in
and lodged a complaint. After a few days, they contacted him and
admitted the machines logs showed it had paid out £5 more than it had
been loaded with. And refunded him.

On that basis, surely your friend should have refunded the bank?

?

You are saying that the machine logs showed that the machine had paid
out *more* than it had been loaded with. This in itself hardly supports
your friend's argument that he was underpaid by £5.

No, it proved it.
Machine was loaded with (say) £1,000 (presumably from some sort of
external audit).
Machine says it paid out £1,005 - which was at the point my friend (who
asked for £10) got £5.
You can see where the mistake happened. And so it seemed did the bank.
This was in the mid 1980s when machines were quite primitive. I don't
think it shut down after running out of money - or displayed a message.
The bank was Midland though.

There certainly used to be the odd case of the wrong notes being loaded
- £5 or £20 instead of £10 - so it was dispensing a different amount to
what was selected.

[Davey]

On 21 Jan 2025 15:37:14 GMT

Post by Jeff Gaines
I withdrew some cash last week from a machine located in the village
Co-Op. Put all the details in then stood there wondering where my
cash was, couldn't see it anywhere. Stepped back and it was hidden
under the top part of the machine, about knee level to me, and I was
just in time to see it gobbled back in to the machine :-(
I needed the cash so went through the process again and managed to
get it before the machine did.
Had an online chat next day with my bank who said don't worry, it
should be refunded within 24-48 hours. Not refunded by Friday so had
another chat who said if it's not back by the end of today call us.
Not back by this morning so 'phoned bank. Spoke to three different
people, all did security checks, no. 2 and no. 3 had no idea why I
had called as they hadn't been told by the previous person. No. 3
seemed to know what she was doing. Had no idea why I had been told it
would re resolved automatically, can only be resolved through a
dispute procedure which she has now kicked off. It seems that the
money will be credited in (up to) five days but may be re-debited for
up to 28 days if the company operating the machine dispute it.
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there?
No idea what happens if they do dispute it.

I had just finished a three-month job in Mexico City, and was getting
cash out of the ATM at a bank at a branch of the supermarket chain
Carrefour, on a Friday afternoon. The machine, which I had used
successfully several times before, made a lot of mechanical grinding
noises, and ate my card, giving me no cash or receipt. Luckily, the
branch was still open, so I went in and complained, but all I got was a
few shrugs of shoulders, "Not my machine, signor" was the general
response.
As I was leaving for home the next day, I managed with what cash I had
and a couple of credit cards, and back home the next Monday, I went
straight to my bank and reported the card's loss. This being in
America, I was given a new temporary card on the spot, the real one
arriving a few days later in the post.
At least the machine did not report my being given any money, that
would have been too much.

[Marland]

Post by Jeff Gaines
I withdrew some cash last week from a machine located in the village
Co-Op. Put all the details in then stood there wondering where my cash
was, couldn't see it anywhere. Stepped back and it was hidden under the
top part of the machine, about knee level to me, and I was just in time to
see it gobbled back in to the machine :-(
I needed the cash so went through the process again and managed to get it
before the machine did.
Had an online chat next day with my bank who said don't worry, it should
be refunded within 24-48 hours. Not refunded by Friday so had another chat
who said if it's not back by the end of today call us.
Not back by this morning so 'phoned bank. Spoke to three different people,
all did security checks, no. 2 and no. 3 had no idea why I had called as
they hadn't been told by the previous person. No. 3 seemed to know what
she was doing. Had no idea why I had been told it would re resolved
automatically, can only be resolved through a dispute procedure which she
has now kicked off. It seems that the money will be credited in (up to)
five days but may be re-debited for up to 28 days if the company operating
the machine dispute it.
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

Alderholt Co-Op has a Post Office Counter.
Could you not have drawn your cash out using that?

Appreciate not all banks may have an arrangement with them but if yours
does would save the hassle with the ATM.

GH

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Marland

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

Alderholt Co-Op has a Post Office Counter.
Could you not have drawn your cash out using that?

I had just spent 30 minutes at the PO counter arranging the return of an
SSD to Czechoslovakia. I couldn't believe the process, 4 x labels on the
envelope all together!

Post by Marland
Appreciate not all banks may have an arrangement with them but if yours
does would save the hassle with the ATM.

Must admit it didn't cross my mind, I only use cash twice a year for the
chap that cleans my oven and it's about due.

[Pamela]

Post by Jeff Gaines
I withdrew some cash last week from a machine located in the village
Co-Op. Put all the details in then stood there wondering where my cash
was, couldn't see it anywhere. Stepped back and it was hidden under
the top part of the machine, about knee level to me, and I was just in
time to see it gobbled back in to the machine :-(
I needed the cash so went through the process again and managed to get
it before the machine did.
Had an online chat next day with my bank who said don't worry, it
should be refunded within 24-48 hours. Not refunded by Friday so had
another chat who said if it's not back by the end of today call us.
Not back by this morning so 'phoned bank. Spoke to three different
people, all did security checks, no. 2 and no. 3 had no idea why I had
called as they hadn't been told by the previous person. No. 3 seemed
to know what she was doing. Had no idea why I had been told it would
re resolved automatically, can only be resolved through a dispute
procedure which she has now kicked off. It seems that the money will
be credited in (up to) five days but may be re-debited for up to 28
days if the company operating the machine dispute it.
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

My friend is currently going through something very similar. In her case
she used a cash machine to get £500. The machine accepted the card and
the PIN but it didn't produce any money. It didn't even stick the money
in a slot and then took it back, as happened to you.

This machine was inside an HSBC branch and she is with First Direct,
which is a subsidiary. The branch staff were useless and didn't try hard
to help but they said the money would very likely re-appear in her
account in a few days. Anecdotal comments online suggest this is very
much what usually happens.

This was just before Christmas. £500 has been debited from her account
and NOT credited back. She complained to her bank, who arranged for
someone to check the machine's end of day totals, and these showed no
error. (Shades of Post Office Horizon machine error here.)

My friend is a very thorough person and the last person to make any
mistake about the steps she took. She wasn't distracted by anyone in the
queue (who may have scooped up the cash).

So I'm not sure what she will do. I've suggested she ask for a copy of
the security video, assuming it covers the cash machines, which she can
do under the Data Protect Act. That might show she didn't collect up any
banknotes from the machine and support her story.

[Scott]

On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 23:38:12 GMT, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Jeff Gaines
I withdrew some cash last week from a machine located in the village
Co-Op. Put all the details in then stood there wondering where my cash
was, couldn't see it anywhere. Stepped back and it was hidden under
the top part of the machine, about knee level to me, and I was just in
time to see it gobbled back in to the machine :-(
I needed the cash so went through the process again and managed to get
it before the machine did.
Had an online chat next day with my bank who said don't worry, it
should be refunded within 24-48 hours. Not refunded by Friday so had
another chat who said if it's not back by the end of today call us.
Not back by this morning so 'phoned bank. Spoke to three different
people, all did security checks, no. 2 and no. 3 had no idea why I had
called as they hadn't been told by the previous person. No. 3 seemed
to know what she was doing. Had no idea why I had been told it would
re resolved automatically, can only be resolved through a dispute
procedure which she has now kicked off. It seems that the money will
be credited in (up to) five days but may be re-debited for up to 28
days if the company operating the machine dispute it.
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

My friend is currently going through something very similar. In her case
she used a cash machine to get £500. The machine accepted the card and
the PIN but it didn't produce any money. It didn't even stick the money
in a slot and then took it back, as happened to you.
This machine was inside an HSBC branch and she is with First Direct,
which is a subsidiary. The branch staff were useless and didn't try hard
to help but they said the money would very likely re-appear in her
account in a few days. Anecdotal comments online suggest this is very
much what usually happens.
This was just before Christmas. £500 has been debited from her account
and NOT credited back. She complained to her bank, who arranged for
someone to check the machine's end of day totals, and these showed no
error. (Shades of Post Office Horizon machine error here.)
My friend is a very thorough person and the last person to make any
mistake about the steps she took. She wasn't distracted by anyone in the
queue (who may have scooped up the cash).
So I'm not sure what she will do. I've suggested she ask for a copy of
the security video, assuming it covers the cash machines, which she can
do under the Data Protect Act. That might show she didn't collect up any
banknotes from the machine and support her story.

She will probably find there is a retention period for the CCTV.

My friend had an opposite experience. She went to a Barclays machine
as she wanted English notes. Due to a combination of sun and a
defective screen her card was retained. She writes good letters and
wrote to the Barclays manager (even though not a customer) then
received a massive bunch of flowers and was most impressed.

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Pamela

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

My friend is currently going through something very similar. In her case
she used a cash machine to get £500. The machine accepted the card and
the PIN but it didn't produce any money. It didn't even stick the money
in a slot and then took it back, as happened to you.
This machine was inside an HSBC branch and she is with First Direct,
which is a subsidiary. The branch staff were useless and didn't try hard
to help but they said the money would very likely re-appear in her
account in a few days. Anecdotal comments online suggest this is very
much what usually happens.
This was just before Christmas. £500 has been debited from her account
and NOT credited back. She complained to her bank, who arranged for
someone to check the machine's end of day totals, and these showed no
error. (Shades of Post Office Horizon machine error here.)
My friend is a very thorough person and the last person to make any
mistake about the steps she took. She wasn't distracted by anyone in the
queue (who may have scooped up the cash).
So I'm not sure what she will do. I've suggested she ask for a copy of
the security video, assuming it covers the cash machines, which she can
do under the Data Protect Act. That might show she didn't collect up any
banknotes from the machine and support her story.

I wouldn't be surprised if even in a bank branch the machines are run by
Cashzone.

Interesting how staff say it will sort itself out. The 3rd lady I spoke to
was adamant that there were no refunds unless you went through the proper
process.

[Scott]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Pamela

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there? No
idea what happens if they do dispute it.

My friend is currently going through something very similar. In her case
she used a cash machine to get £500. The machine accepted the card and
the PIN but it didn't produce any money. It didn't even stick the money
in a slot and then took it back, as happened to you.
This machine was inside an HSBC branch and she is with First Direct,
which is a subsidiary. The branch staff were useless and didn't try hard
to help but they said the money would very likely re-appear in her
account in a few days. Anecdotal comments online suggest this is very
much what usually happens.
This was just before Christmas. £500 has been debited from her account
and NOT credited back. She complained to her bank, who arranged for
someone to check the machine's end of day totals, and these showed no
error. (Shades of Post Office Horizon machine error here.)
My friend is a very thorough person and the last person to make any
mistake about the steps she took. She wasn't distracted by anyone in the
queue (who may have scooped up the cash).
So I'm not sure what she will do. I've suggested she ask for a copy of
the security video, assuming it covers the cash machines, which she can
do under the Data Protect Act. That might show she didn't collect up any
banknotes from the machine and support her story.

I wouldn't be surprised if even in a bank branch the machines are run by
Cashzone.
Interesting how staff say it will sort itself out. The 3rd lady I spoke to
was adamant that there were no refunds unless you went through the proper
process.

I left a smaller sum in a cash machine at St Pancras. After a single
email, I wrote it off on the basis of contributory negligence on my
part.

[Pamela]

Post by Jeff Gaines

Post by Pamela

Post by Jeff Gaines
There's no protection for cash machine withdrawals at all is there?
No idea what happens if they do dispute it.

My friend is currently going through something very similar. In her
case she used a cash machine to get £500. The machine accepted the
card and the PIN but it didn't produce any money. It didn't even stick
the money in a slot and then took it back, as happened to you.
This machine was inside an HSBC branch and she is with First Direct,
which is a subsidiary. The branch staff were useless and didn't try
hard to help but they said the money would very likely re-appear in
her account in a few days. Anecdotal comments online suggest this is
very much what usually happens.
This was just before Christmas. £500 has been debited from her account
and NOT credited back. She complained to her bank, who arranged for
someone to check the machine's end of day totals, and these showed no
error. (Shades of Post Office Horizon machine error here.)
My friend is a very thorough person and the last person to make any
mistake about the steps she took. She wasn't distracted by anyone in
the queue (who may have scooped up the cash).
So I'm not sure what she will do. I've suggested she ask for a copy of
the security video, assuming it covers the cash machines, which she
can do under the Data Protect Act. That might show she didn't collect
up any banknotes from the machine and support her story.

I wouldn't be surprised if even in a bank branch the machines are run
by Cashzone.
Interesting how staff say it will sort itself out. The 3rd lady I
spoke to was adamant that there were no refunds unless you went
through the proper process.

How many days has it been since your experience? Any refund?

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Pamela

Post by Jeff Gaines
I wouldn't be surprised if even in a bank branch the machines are run
by Cashzone.
Interesting how staff say it will sort itself out. The 3rd lady I
spoke to was adamant that there were no refunds unless you went
through the proper process.

How many days has it been since your experience? Any refund?

Yes, it was refunded within 48 hours of speaking to lady no.3. She did say
the bank reserved the right to claw it back for up to 28 days if there was
a dispute.