Unsupported chimney breast!

[Andy Dingley]

Friends are looking at buying a house. Nice old 1890ish terrace, two
floors and a full-size cellar.

Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from
the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.

Any suggestions on fixes?

[Colin Wilson]

Post by Andy Dingley
Any suggestions on fixes?

Sorry, but all I can think of right now is the tellytubbies shouting
"run away !!!!"

Can they get the current owner to get a full structural survey and foot
the cost of any remedial work required ?

I wonder when the "house packs" become a legal requirement for
sellers...

[Richard Faulkner]

Post by Colin Wilson

Post by Andy Dingley
Any suggestions on fixes?

Sorry, but all I can think of right now is the tellytubbies shouting
"run away !!!!"
Can they get the current owner to get a full structural survey and foot
the cost of any remedial work required ?
I wonder when the "house packs" become a legal requirement for
sellers...

Wont make much difference... The new Home Inspectors will not be trained
to the levels of Chartered Surveyors, and the report will almost
certainly not be acceptable to lenders.

[c***@postmaster.co.uk]

Post by Andy Dingley
Friends are looking at buying a house. Nice old 1890ish terrace, two
floors and a full-size cellar.
Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from
the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and

But a hellova weight of bricks above!

Post by Andy Dingley
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.
Any suggestions on fixes?

I'm sure someone will tell us what the required mechanism is, but all
I've got holding up my chimney in similar circumstances is a couple of
flat steel strips inserted horizontally into the remaining brickwork.
If the one you're looking at is the same they may simply be hidden by
the floorboards.

Chris

[m***@care2.com]

Post by Andy Dingley
Friends are looking at buying a house. Nice old 1890ish terrace, two
floors and a full-size cellar.
Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from
the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.
Any suggestions on fixes?

I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.


NT

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by m***@care2.com
I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.

What you do is go down the cellar and look at where the hearth was.
When you so it isn't that's when you know.

(Unless the idiots stripped out the floor and inserted lots and lots of
expensive ironmongery so they could have more room in the cellar.)

I would imagine that after having tons and tons of masonry cleing to
the gable wall there will be a fair bit of distortion. If you can't see
it and there are no cracks in it then it might be possible to repair it
for 10 or 15 thousand. (To take down the stack. I don't know if putting
the base back will be safe enough.)

When it collapses it will drop instantly and give little or no warning,
so the house will be uninhabitable untill all the chimney is removed or
reinstated.

I wouldn't bother. And it aught to be illegal to pass on dangerous
property like that whether or not the customer has been advised of it.

[j***@ntlworld.com]

Post by Weatherlawyer

Post by m***@care2.com
I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.

What you do is go down the cellar and look at where the hearth was.
When you so it isn't that's when you know.
(Unless the idiots stripped out the floor and inserted lots and lots of
expensive ironmongery so they could have more room in the cellar.)
I would imagine that after having tons and tons of masonry cleing to
the gable wall there will be a fair bit of distortion. If you can't see
it and there are no cracks in it then it might be possible to repair it
for 10 or 15 thousand. (To take down the stack. I don't know if putting
the base back will be safe enough.)
When it collapses it will drop instantly and give little or no warning,
so the house will be uninhabitable untill all the chimney is removed or
reinstated.
I wouldn't bother. And it aught to be illegal to pass on dangerous
property like that whether or not the customer has been advised of it.

It shouldn't cost 10k to remove a stack!! (Unless the house is huge
with more than 2 stacks. Ive removed a single stack in a kitchen for
less than 2k.

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by j***@ntlworld.com
It shouldn't cost 10k to remove a stack!! (Unless the house is huge
with more than 2 stacks. Ive removed a single stack in a kitchen for
less than 2k.

It can be done for nothing if you do it yourself. But for a profesional
job it could well be a silly figure. It depends on the powers that be
insisting who does what.

A large firm will charge 3 or 4 times the labour cost. I was only
guessing at a silly and objectionable price. Not that I'd turn it down.

[m***@care2.com]

Post by Weatherlawyer

Post by m***@care2.com
I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.

What you do is go down the cellar and look at where the hearth was.
When you so it isn't that's when you know.
(Unless the idiots stripped out the floor and inserted lots and lots of
expensive ironmongery so they could have more room in the cellar.)

IOW since its a cellar there will be no ceiling.

Why on earth would someone remove only the cellar level of a stack?


NT

[legin]

Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from

the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.


I often wonder at the hysteria that people get into when faced with
these problems. Assuming that the chimney is 4' wide and projects about
1'. Is it acually 1' or more probably10" single brick (9" plus plaster)
or 14" brick and a half. The chimney will be built out of the existing
flank wall so is corbelled back into the existing wall. I accept that
the corbelling is too severe and it should be a max of 25% of the wall
from which it protrudes. If it is a solid 9" wall then it could corbel
out to 11" then 13"and so on until it sufficiently supports the stack.
Some people will scoff but I have seen countless chimney stacks arch
over within the loft space and two breasts( I know what i mean!) merge
to the base of the chimney stack where it protrudes from the roof.
regards
Legin

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by legin
I often wonder at the hysteria that people get into when faced with
these problems. Assuming that the chimney is 4' wide and projects about
1'. Is it acually 1' or more probably10" single brick (9" plus plaster)
or 14" brick and a half. The chimney will be built out of the existing
flank wall so is corbelled back into the existing wall. I accept that
the corbelling is too severe and it should be a max of 25% of the wall
from which it protrudes. If it is a solid 9" wall then it could corbel
out to 11" then 13"and so on until it sufficiently supports the stack.
Some people will scoff but I have seen countless chimney stacks arch
over within the loft space and two breasts( I know what i mean!) merge
to the base of the chimney stack where it protrudes from the roof.

Well, there you have it, yer pays yer muni an yer takes yer choises.

Personally I'd steer clear or get a profitable price reduction. What
would really ice the cake is to find it has been listed.

Then you'd bend over backwards listing problems with a listing listed
building.

[m***@care2.com]

Post by Weatherlawyer
Well, there you have it, yer pays yer muni an yer takes yer choises.
Personally I'd steer clear or get a profitable price reduction. What
would really ice the cake is to find it has been listed.
Then you'd bend over backwards listing problems with a listing listed
building.

The seller had better hope the building isnt listing then.

NT

[T i m]

Post by Andy Dingley
Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from
the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.
I often wonder at the hysteria that people get into when faced with
these problems. Assuming that the chimney is 4' wide and projects about
1'. Is it acually 1' or more probably10" single brick (9" plus plaster)
or 14" brick and a half. The chimney will be built out of the existing
flank wall so is corbelled back into the existing wall. <snip>

I took the chimney breast out from the kitchen > back bedroom of this
1897 end-of-terrace place and finally took the (small) stack down and
the remaining breast when the roof was refurbed (slates stripped,
lined, replaced).

I started by supporting the front face with an acro but soon found
that in spite of the mortar being mainly sand it was fairly well keyed
into the wall and wasn't 'falling' anywhere.

As most of the bricks were removed (by hand) intact I used them to
refill the 4 1/2" void ;-)

We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

Post by T i m
We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

Mary

Post by T i m
All the best ..
T i m

[T i m]

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:09:30 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m
We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

" two wall mounted gas fires downstairs", a storage rad in the bedroom
and in cupboard of bathroom, wall mounted balanced flue mini heater in
the daughters room.

Can't see the point trying to (efficiently) centrally heat a huge
solid brick flank wall ;-(

And we are motorcyclists, campers and cyclists .. being at a constant
22 deg C isn't that important to us .. ;-)

All the best ...

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

Post by T i m
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:09:30 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m
We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

" two wall mounted gas fires downstairs",

"(that are rarely on)" :-)

Post by T i m
Can't see the point trying to (efficiently) centrally heat a huge
solid brick flank wall ;-(

No.

Post by T i m
And we are motorcyclists, campers and cyclists .. being at a constant
22 deg C isn't that important to us .. ;-)

Same here, in fact 22C sounds like the first stage of hell.

Mary

Post by T i m
All the best ...
T i m

[T i m]

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:54:56 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m

Post by Mary Fisher
How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

" two wall mounted gas fires downstairs",

"(that are rarely on)" :-)

Yup. The one in the middle room hasn't been on for probably 5 years
and the one in the lounge is only needed on the 'really' cold days.
There is no heating on now for example and we are both 'comfortable'
with bare arms?

Our daughter seems to like being a bit warmer (so set's her room
heater accordingly), possibly because of age or that she spends time
in other folks places that are often much warmer than here? Having
said that she still turns her heater off completely at night.

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m
Can't see the point trying to (efficiently) centrally heat a huge
solid brick flank wall ;-(

No.

Post by T i m
And we are motorcyclists, campers and cyclists .. being at a constant
22 deg C isn't that important to us .. ;-)

Same here, in fact 22C sounds like the first stage of hell.

Because 'she' is still going through the change and most places we go
are hotter than here and it's never long before she is standing in the
garden or flapping her folding fan about. They tried to take all the
personal fans away where she works and inspite of personal fans 'not
being allowed' soon got her's re-instated! You really don't want to
get between a woman having a flush and a cooling solution! ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

Post by T i m
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:54:56 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m

Post by Mary Fisher
How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

" two wall mounted gas fires downstairs",

"(that are rarely on)" :-)

Yup. The one in the middle room hasn't been on for probably 5 years
and the one in the lounge is only needed on the 'really' cold days.
There is no heating on now for example and we are both 'comfortable'
with bare arms?

Same with us.

Post by T i m
Our daughter seems to like being a bit warmer

They do :-(

It's not kewl to wear a cardie!

Post by T i m
(so set's her room
heater accordingly), possibly because of age or that she spends time
in other folks places that are often much warmer than here?

Yes <sigh>

Post by T i m

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m
And we are motorcyclists, campers and cyclists .. being at a constant
22 deg C isn't that important to us .. ;-)

Same here, in fact 22C sounds like the first stage of hell.

Because 'she' is still going through the change and most places we go
are hotter than here and it's never long before she is standing in the
garden or flapping her folding fan about. They tried to take all the
personal fans away where she works and inspite of personal fans 'not
being allowed' soon got her's re-instated!

Good for her!

Post by T i m
You really don't want to
get between a woman having a flush and a cooling solution! ;-(

I can't remember it, except for in bed. But I had it repeated while taking
drugs for breast cancer. Still only in bed.

Poor Spouse :-)

Mary

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by T i m
I took the chimney breast out from the kitchen > back bedroom of this
1897 end-of-terrace place and finally took the (small) stack down and
the remaining breast when the roof was refurbed (slates stripped,
lined, replaced).
I started by supporting the front face with an acro but soon found
that in spite of the mortar being mainly sand it was fairly well keyed
into the wall and wasn't 'falling' anywhere.

I should doubt very much that any chimney lacks at least a key at every
3rd course or so.

Some stacks can weigh a ton in a few feet as a brick is about 2 or 3
lbs of dried clay. They have no sheer resistance. What you do with a
column of bricks 20 or 30 feet high is your business.

But if you undermined it and invited me around, it would be for a
fight. What you were relying on was the integrity of the roof to resist
the gable holding the chimney up. A small amount of movement would have
taken place after every storm. And not gone back.

I don't understand how you could be such a damned fool and not realise
from the OP in this thread on, that there must have been some sort of
frictional type device holding up the chimneys discussed here.

What did you think was holding them up? Bird shit and wall paper paste.?

[T i m]

On 22 Apr 2006 04:26:32 -0700, "Weatherlawyer"

Post by Weatherlawyer

Post by T i m
I took the chimney breast out from the kitchen > back bedroom of this
1897 end-of-terrace place and finally took the (small) stack down and
the remaining breast when the roof was refurbed (slates stripped,
lined, replaced).
I started by supporting the front face with an acro but soon found
that in spite of the mortar being mainly sand it was fairly well keyed
into the wall and wasn't 'falling' anywhere.

I should doubt very much that any chimney lacks at least a key at every
3rd course or so.

This was keyed every other course from memory ..

Post by Weatherlawyer
Some stacks can weigh a ton in a few feet as a brick is about 2 or 3
lbs of dried clay. They have no sheer resistance.

Possibly, but wouldn't the fact that the mortar was fairly soft allow
all the keys to take their share of the load, so the mass that was
free to fall would only be the centre course at the front (and
gradually coballing themselves back to the sides (and how infact I
took it down as it was supported by an acro at the ground fooor
fireplace).

Post by Weatherlawyer
What you do with a
column of bricks 20 or 30 feet high is your business.

I gently knocked at least 50% out with a 2lb hammer, knocked off the
mortar and stacked them neatly for reuse?

Post by Weatherlawyer
But if you undermined it and invited me around, it would be for a
fight.

Well you wouldn't have been offered a cuppa if you were to frigntened
to help.

Post by Weatherlawyer
What you were relying on was the integrity of the roof to resist
the gable holding the chimney up.

Eh? The chimney was standing 50% on the existing flank wall and the
side cheeks where there were keyd into the flank wall down to the
first floor (and from there to the ground floor to start with).

Post by Weatherlawyer
A small amount of movement would have
taken place after every storm. And not gone back.

Possibly .. this place has been squirming about for the last 100+
years ..?

Post by Weatherlawyer
I don't understand how you could be such a damned fool and not realise
from the OP in this thread on, that there must have been some sort of
frictional type device holding up the chimneys discussed here.

Ermm, not sure (again) what you are getting at here .. probably leagal
jargon .. ;-)

Post by Weatherlawyer
What did you think was holding them up? Bird shit and wall paper paste.?

I didn't 'think' what was holding them I knew, good brick bonds and
sandy lime mortar (and an acro while I was *actually* taking it down,
just in case ...)?

And that was 30 years ago now ..

What was potentially dangerous though was the builder that set the
joists against (rather than on with possibly a small birds mouth) the
wall plate on the new 'end wall' when he built the extension to the
rear addition. Fine if it was a pitched roof. Luckily he (finally)
agreed and did it properly ..

All the best ..

T i m

[surveyor]

Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

[Mary Fisher]

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

Will the home condition reports have to be made in triplicate?

Mary

[Ed Sirett]

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

Will the home condition reports have to be made in triplicate?

Nicely put!

BTW I was hearing on the radio the other morning about how a panel of
three people (a solicitor, a surveyor, and an estate agent) all thought
that the new scheme is doomed.

I know there is a certain mount of hype and the radio station probably
trawled around to find extreme view. This has to be tempered by the fact
that these views were not any old tom dick or FRICS. But representatives
from the Law Society, The RICS and the NAEA.

The gist of the beef was
1) The HIP goes against the basis of all other transactions (caveat emptor).
2) The delays are usually
a) The lender - they need to get an independant estimation to cover
themselves
b) Chains.
The latter is absolute and some people choose to take the cash and
rent temporarily to help break a chain.
3) With protracted sales the HIP may go out of date in several ways:

[norwegionblue]

Yes there is opposition to the scheme but there's no going back. The
law has been approved by parliament The main problem initially will be
insufficient trained inspectors and dare I say the quality of the
peoplefundertaking the surveys. The freason for its introduction is to
make selling and buying easier. There is no going back to the way it is
at the moment. The doomsayers will need to propose a viable
alternative. Anyone for the Scottish system?
The other issue is that Europe issued a directive that all buildings
should have a energy rating. As the Home Inspector will carry out a
energy rating assessment of the property as part of the condition
survey this will satisfy this requirement

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by norwegionblue
Yes there is opposition to the scheme but there's no going back.

I take it that all this is to bring into line with sensible countries
where you have to tell the truth and stick to an agreement and all that
crap?

It will never catch on.

[Owain]

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Post by norwegionblue
Yes there is opposition to the scheme but there's no going back. The
law has been approved by parliament The main problem initially will be
insufficient trained inspectors and dare I say the quality of the
peoplefundertaking the surveys. The freason for its introduction is to
make selling and buying easier. There is no going back to the way it is
at the moment. The doomsayers will need to propose a viable
alternative. Anyone for the Scottish system?

Sorry, we're getting the blasted things too :-(

Owain

[Mary Fisher]

Post by Ed Sirett
BTW I was hearing on the radio the other morning about how a panel of
three people (a solicitor, a surveyor, and an estate agent) all thought
that the new scheme is doomed.

But the govinment insists that's it's The Way Forward.

Mary

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

I wonder why?

[norwegionblue]

Because the work is a material alteration which is defined in the
building regulations. Trust me(joke) im an ex BC Surveyor better still
ring your local authority building control dept

[Andy Burns]

Post by norwegionblue
im an ex BC Surveyor

You do appear to have the required sense of humour :-P

[surveyor]

Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

[Donwill]

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
<snipped>

But Tim did it 30 years ago if I'm not mistaken, long enough time to show
movement I think.
Would it have been notifiable 30 years ago?
Donwill

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by Donwill

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
<snipped>

But Tim did it 30 years ago if I'm not mistaken, long enough time to show
movement I think.
Would it have been notifiable 30 years ago?

It may or may not give way as long as the house stands. It's only got
to fall once.

It doesn't have to do damage to the gable. If it were made with
engineering brick for example or the flue reinforced with concrete
instead of infill.

Now for heaven's sake lets caustic soda this damned thread. It is full
of people who just want to yap at their tales.

[T i m]

On 23 Apr 2006 01:14:57 -0700, "Weatherlawyer"

Post by Weatherlawyer

Post by Donwill

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
<snipped>

But Tim did it 30 years ago if I'm not mistaken, long enough time to show
movement I think.
Would it have been notifiable 30 years ago?

It may or may not give way as long as the house stands. It's only got
to fall once.

Ok, last try, it's down, gone, missing, removed. Nothing to fall as
nothing is there. Try an imagine a house that doesn't have a chimney
breast or stack .. it's just like that and has been like that for 30
years now.

On top of that the room that once housed the breast is now bonded to a
new extension where the footings are about 3 (if not 4) times deeper
that the existing ones.

The 4 1/2" 'cavity' that was once the back of the breast was also
*bricked* (not shite soft blocks notice) back up using the recovered
bricks and a matching (as near as I could) strength motar mix. The
concrete slab that once formed the first floor hearth was fully
removed. All cut / missing joists were replaced and floorboards
lifted and 'joggled' so as to reduce any weakness in the area of the
old breast. If I building inspector was to look at any of the area
today (kitchen, beedroom, loft or roof) there would be no obvious
signs that a chimney ever existed.

To answer 'your' other question Donwill (I note our expert didn't), it
was part of a general house improvement process I was doing at the
time (it had gas lighting, butler sink and outside loo etc) and much
of it was assisted with the aid of some small grants they were
offering. The BCO's (of the time) and others were in and out regularly
(especially as it was partly their money) so I would have assumed
would have said something if they were concerned / interested?

All the best ..

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

Post by T i m
Ok, last try, it's down, gone, missing, removed. Nothing to fall as
nothing is there.

Or as Spouse always says, "It can't fall, there's nothing to stop it."

Mary

[surveyor]

Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

[Chris Bacon]

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

[Tim S]

Post by Chris Bacon

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

I hate beaurocracy but I would hope most people would consider talking to
building control when removing bits of masonry holding up X-tons of masonry
above (partial removal) or holding up floor joists (total removal).

At least those people who know that you should talk to BC when knocking out
load bearing walls :)

I wonder why people are so keen to remove chimney breasts - one of my
criteria of house hunting of late is that it should have a chimney - at
least one that can be opened, relined and reinstated. I like open fires
from time to time and I still remember being grateful in the early 70's
that we were still toasty warm in one room at least when all around was
black for 6 hours at a time ;-) Even this year, a lot of houses in my
village were without electricity for a day or two thanks to April snow
bringing down trees across the power lines. If that had affected us in our
rented modern house, we would have been turning into the family Frosty.

Cheers

Tim

[Frank Erskine]

Post by Chris Bacon

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

The guvmint doesn't want people to do it themselves, does it?

Any fule noes that all d-i-yers are totally incompetent, in the eyes
of Prescott and Co.

[Ed Sirett]

Post by Frank Erskine

Post by Chris Bacon

Post by surveyor
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

The guvmint doesn't want people to do it themselves, does it?

It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

[DJC]

Post by Ed Sirett
It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

But that is probably about as unstoppable as DIY. Making it difficult
will just cause it to be more invisible.

[Mary Fisher]

Post by Ed Sirett
It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

Mary

[T i m]

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:56:42 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by Ed Sirett
It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

And why three of my SE mates have left the country and gone to Canada,
NZ and France. ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

Post by T i m
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:56:42 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by Ed Sirett
It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

And why three of my SE mates have left the country and gone to Canada,
NZ and France. ;-(

I hate saying this but if I were younger ...

In fact some time ago, when that chap who blew the whistle on WMD was found
dead, I looked up how to go to NZ. We couldn't afford it. But for the first
time ever I was ashamed to even be seen as supporting New Labour by living
in the same country..

:-(

Mary

[Nick]

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:56:42 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by Ed Sirett
It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

And why three of my SE mates have left the country and gone to Canada,
NZ and France. ;-(

I hate saying this but if I were younger ...
In fact some time ago, when that chap who blew the whistle on WMD was found
dead, I looked up how to go to NZ. We couldn't afford it. But for the first
time ever I was ashamed to even be seen as supporting New Labour by living
in the same country..
:-(

It would be better to stay and try to fix the problem. Is
Commissioner Sir Ian Blair still in his job, and if so, why?

[Mary Fisher]

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:56:42 +0100, "Mary Fisher"

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by Ed Sirett
It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

And why three of my SE mates have left the country and gone to Canada,
NZ and France. ;-(

I hate saying this but if I were younger ...
In fact some time ago, when that chap who blew the whistle on WMD was
found dead, I looked up how to go to NZ. We couldn't afford it. But for
the first time ever I was ashamed to even be seen as supporting New
Labour by living in the same country..
:-(

It would be better to stay and try to fix the problem. Is Commissioner Sir
Ian Blair still in his job, and if so, why?

But he has some say in matters. I don't. and don't say I have a vote, no-one
I've voted for in 20 years has been elected.

Over forty years I've tried to get things done - with support. But support
from grass roots doesn't count with Teflon Tony..

Mary

[Tim S]

Post by Mary Fisher

It would be better to stay and try to fix the problem. Is Commissioner
Sir Ian Blair still in his job, and if so, why?

But he has some say in matters. I don't. and don't say I have a vote,
no-one I've voted for in 20 years has been elected.
Over forty years I've tried to get things done - with support. But support
from grass roots doesn't count with Teflon Tony..
Mary

Yeah - just look at the Iraq War. One of the biggest series of opposition
protests from the grass roots of recent times, bigger than any other issue
since the Poll Tax, and what happened? Totally ignored by Blair. Short of
getting half the population down to Westminster with flaming torches and
pitchforks, what can you do?

Tim

Hang on, someone's knocking at the door...

[Nick]

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by Mary Fisher
In fact some time ago, when that chap who blew the whistle on WMD was
found dead, I looked up how to go to NZ. We couldn't afford it. But for
the first time ever I was ashamed to even be seen as supporting New
Labour by living in the same country..
:-(

It would be better to stay and try to fix the problem. Is Commissioner Sir
Ian Blair still in his job, and if so, why?

But he has some say in matters. I don't. and don't say I have a vote, no-one
I've voted for in 20 years has been elected.
Over forty years I've tried to get things done - with support. But support
from grass roots doesn't count with Teflon Tony..

The answer is to get proportional representation, such as we've
had in NZ for 10 years. No one party in power can do what they
want without support from other parties.
Help to campaign for a referendum on proportional representation.

[Mary Fisher]

Post by Mary Fisher
Over forty years I've tried to get things done - with support. But
support from grass roots doesn't count with Teflon Tony..

The answer is to get proportional representation, such as we've had in NZ
for 10 years. No one party in power can do what they want without support
from other parties.
Help to campaign for a referendum on proportional representation.

I do. There's not much support for that though. Old habits die hard.

Mary

[T i m]

Post by Nick

Post by Mary Fisher

Post by T i m
And why three of my SE mates have left the country and gone to Canada,
NZ and France. ;-(

I hate saying this but if I were younger ...
In fact some time ago, when that chap who blew the whistle on WMD was found
dead, I looked up how to go to NZ. We couldn't afford it. But for the first
time ever I was ashamed to even be seen as supporting New Labour by living
in the same country..
:-(

It would be better to stay and try to fix the problem.

Moraly yes, but I believe the 'system' is in such a mess and the human
rights folk have such a lever that we can't get out of it?

Whilst 'money matters' so much to so many people I'm not sure how many
folk are interested in what's generally considered 'right' for
civilation in general?

So I don't get into relegion (because I just don't) and generally stay
out of politics because I feel there are too many parties (people) who
are:

more interested in their own private agenda rather than the job in
hand

have their hands tied by buraucracy

say what they think we want to hear (then do summat else) <nah?> ;-)

voters that always vote one way (because) ..

voters who vote for what's good for them rather than what's best for
us

etc etc ..

I think I'd rather live in a sensible dictatorship .. at least someone
would actually make some decisions! ;-)

But as you rightly say Nick, if you aren't part of the solution you
are part of the problem ... ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

[Nick]

Post by T i m

Post by Nick
It would be better to stay and try to fix the problem.

Moraly yes, but I believe the 'system' is in such a mess and the human
rights folk have such a lever that we can't get out of it?

Things are improving. Now that we have the Internet, governments
can no longer hide anything. You can publish anything you want
and lots of people will read it. Just keep embarrassing anyone in
government who does a bad job. Keep details of their failings,
and publish it all when they are trying to get re-elected.

Post by T i m
I think I'd rather live in a sensible dictatorship .. at least someone
would actually make some decisions! ;-)

I think NZ has been doing well for a while now. Proportional
representation keeps our government from doing anything very
unpopular. We have the lowest unemployment in the OECD.
And a DIY paradise.
Did I mention that my annual heating bill is about £50? :)

[T i m]

Post by Nick

Post by T i m

Post by Nick
It would be better to stay and try to fix the problem.

Moraly yes, but I believe the 'system' is in such a mess and the human
rights folk have such a lever that we can't get out of it?

Things are improving. Now that we have the Internet, governments
can no longer hide anything. You can publish anything you want
and lots of people will read it. Just keep embarrassing anyone in
government who does a bad job.

That's a good point Nick. It seems some of these folk can continue to
do 'bad jobs' but they often stay in position.

Post by Nick
Keep details of their failings,
and publish it all when they are trying to get re-elected.

;-)

Post by Nick

Post by T i m
I think I'd rather live in a sensible dictatorship .. at least someone
would actually make some decisions! ;-)

I think NZ has been doing well for a while now. Proportional
representation keeps our government from doing anything very
unpopular.

So if it's a good why don't we have it (genuine question)?

Post by Nick
We have the lowest unemployment in the OECD.

Neat ..

Post by Nick
And a DIY paradise.

Less restrictions etc?

Post by Nick
Did I mention that my annual heating bill is about £50? :)

No but I'm glad you did (not)! ;-)

I was talking to my daughter this morning on our way to school and she
had written a letter (part of an English exercise) to the governers
about the poor condition of the PC mice in the IT rooms. This being
particularly bad considering her school is IT focused.

(the problem with the mice is that the ball covers are glued on to
stop tampering so also can't be cleaned).

I located a reasonable IR mouse (less tamperable) that the school
could buy for 4 GBP each and offered one to my daughter to take in and
offer to the teacher as an example of what could be bought for very
little. She wouldn't take me up on the offer as she felt no-one would
be interested? It's not really a problem for her bvecause she get's
'looked after' here by me IT wise but what of those who aren't so
fortunate? So we switch off and say nothing ... not our problem ..
because we generally have more interesting stuff to do ourselves like
DIY .. or what little is left DIY wise that we *can* do now ...?

[Nick]

Post by T i m

Post by Nick
I think NZ has been doing well for a while now. Proportional
representation keeps our government from doing anything very
unpopular.

So if it's a good why don't we have it (genuine question)?

NZ had a centre-right government who (foolishly for them)
promised to hold a referendum on whether to have proportional
representation. The poll probably would have voted for the status
quo except that representatives of big business decided to lobby
against PR. The public reacted in indignation and Mixed Member
Proportional representation was selected. The number of members
in each party is now directly proportional to the number of votes
for that party. No one party is likely to ever have a majority
again. There have been teething troubles with the minor parties,
but it's been stable for the last few elections.

I'm not really in uk.d-i-y for political reasons, and the topic
is straying slightly from unsupported chimney breasts!

Post by T i m
I was talking to my daughter this morning on our way to school and she
had written a letter (part of an English exercise) to the governers
about the poor condition of the PC mice in the IT rooms. This being
particularly bad considering her school is IT focused.

I have now decided that almost all organisations are full of
incompetent people who have no idea of anything practical or of
economics. If you want anything done properly you will have to
get very stroppy with them, or to do it yourself :)

[Mary Fisher]

I'm not really in uk.d-i-y for political reasons, and the topic is
straying slightly from unsupported chimney breasts!

Hmm, not sure about that ...
Mary

[m***@care2.com]

Post by Mary Fisher

I'm not really in uk.d-i-y for political reasons, and the topic is
straying slightly from unsupported chimney breasts!

Hmm, not sure about that ...
Mary

such a long thread about unsupported breasts, must be a mostly male
group!


NT

[Weatherlawyer]

Post by Chris Bacon
How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this?

They come down on you like a ton of bricks, you fool. How'd you expect?

Some people are as dense as bricks. It's bloody frightening that somene
can pull the arse out of a chimney or undermine his foundations or some
other foolishness just because his mum or satanclaws bought him an SDS
for crimebo.

Post by Chris Bacon
It's easily within the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

So is getting an official nod:

1. Find the local town hall telephone switchboard.

2. Ask for technical services.

3. Ask for building advice or an appointment to see someone about
whatever.

4. Get it sorted.

How hard is that?

[Chris Bacon]

Post by Weatherlawyer

[ about when to contact "building control" about d-i-y]
How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this?

They come down on you like a ton of bricks, you fool. How'd you expect?

After the event, you big ditto. How are you supposed to know
*in the first place*? Because they *might* come down on you
when the house falls down, or they *might* when you sell it,
doesn't mean that they necessarily *will*.

Post by Weatherlawyer
Some people are as dense as bricks.

You're telling me they are!

Post by Weatherlawyer

It's easily within the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

1. Find the local town hall telephone switchboard.
2. Ask for technical services.
3. Ask for building advice or an appointment to see someone about
whatever.
4. Get it sorted.
How hard is that?

But how does the DIY-er *know* when he needs to do that or,
do you suggest he needs to do that in every case?

What about these things:

"I'm thinking of knocking in a nail to hold up a picture -
do I need to notify you?"

"I want to replace a socket..."
"... add a socket..."
"... remove the self-closer on my door..."
"... replace a door..."
"... replace my hot water cylinder with one exactly the same..."
"... move a doorway..."
"... build a brick barbecue..."
"... add an outside tap..."
"... lay some slabs..."

Should he call the "local town hall telephone switchboard"
for all these, and a myriad of other, things?

[Ed Sirett]

Post by Chris Bacon
"I'm thinking of knocking in a nail to hold up a picture -
do I need to notify you?"
"I want to replace a socket..."

No - not even in a kitchen

Post by Chris Bacon
"... add a socket..."

Yes if in 'special' location. Unless registered to self-certify.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... remove the self-closer on my door..."

If they are there to begin with then they are probably not permitted
to remove.

"... replace a door..." "...
Like for like, No.

Post by Chris Bacon
replace my hot water cylinder with one exactly the same..."

Probably Not permitted as old one probably does not comply with Part -L.
Yes unless able to self certify compliance.

"... move a doorway..."
Yes.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... build a brick barbecue..."

Not sure. Probably no. Unless gas powered.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... add an outside tap..."

No.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... lay some slabs..."

No.

Post by Chris Bacon
Should he call the "local town hall telephone switchboard" for all
these, and a myriad of other, things?

[Mary Fisher]

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Chris Bacon
"I'm thinking of knocking in a nail to hold up a picture -
do I need to notify you?"
"I want to replace a socket..."

No - not even in a kitchen

Post by Chris Bacon
"... add a socket..."

Yes if in 'special' location. Unless registered to self-certify.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... remove the self-closer on my door..."

If they are there to begin with then they are probably not permitted
to remove.
"... replace a door..." "...
Like for like, No.

Post by Chris Bacon
replace my hot water cylinder with one exactly the same..."

Probably Not permitted as old one probably does not comply with Part -L.
Yes unless able to self certify compliance.
"... move a doorway..."
Yes.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... build a brick barbecue..."

Not sure. Probably no. Unless gas powered.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... add an outside tap..."

No.

Post by Chris Bacon
"... lay some slabs..."

No.

Post by Chris Bacon
Should he call the "local town hall telephone switchboard" for all
these, and a myriad of other, things?

HAHAHA! You got me there, Ed - I hadn't seen the op! :-)

Mary

[Chris Bacon]

[Does "building control" need to know about these DIY jobs?]

No, maybe, maybe, no (or maybe), probably, yes, yes,
probably not, no, no.

There's the problem, you see!

[m***@care2.com]

Post by Weatherlawyer
3. Ask for building advice or an appointment to see someone about
whatever.
How hard is that?

Sometimes it goes fine, but sometimes it turns into the silly show,
delays a job by weeks or months, complicates things excessivelyy, adds
lots to the cost, and in many cases all this achieves precisely
nothing. This imho is the most popular reason diyers dont always ask
nanny for permission to fix their own houses.

NT