One for the smart meter sceptics

Post by Jethro_uk
Smart meters are shit - who'd have thunk it ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq52382zd1no
The way smart energy meters work in northern England and Scotland is
causing issues for customers, BBC Panorama has been told.
The body that represents energy companies, Energy UK, has confirmed for
the first time there is a regional divide - because of the way meters
send usage data back to suppliers.

It's silly that there's a hard cutoff. If there's no 400MHz signal north of
the line, let installers fit a comms hub using mobile signals. If you're
south of the line and have good 400MHz signal but no mobile, use 400MHz.
(probably area limited by distance from transmitters). It would also negate
the need for the special Fylingdales frequency - just put everyone near
Fylingdales on the mobile network.

Theo

Adam Funk

2024-11-11 12:59:22 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

(Yes, I know mobile signals are technically a kind of radio signal.)

Theo

2024-11-11 13:40:04 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

For the mobile network comms hubs there's a variety of different antennas
they can fit depending on the location. Do the UHF versions also have
different antenna options?

Also I think the comms hubs can make a mesh network to get signal via the
neighbours' meters as well as sending directly. Do both kinds of comms hub
do that?

Theo

SteveW

2024-11-11 14:06:19 UTC

Post by Theo

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

For the mobile network comms hubs there's a variety of different antennas
they can fit depending on the location. Do the UHF versions also have
different antenna options?

No, the ones on the Arqiva network have no option for an external
antenna, only the built-in (and unchangeable) one.

Post by Theo
Also I think the comms hubs can make a mesh network to get signal via the
neighbours' meters as well as sending directly. Do both kinds of comms hub
do that?

I am guessing that that is the same form of communication as is used
between gas and electricity meters - and even that can be difficult. The
separation of houses (particularly in poor signal, countryside areas)
likely means that that won't work in many cases.

Paul

2024-11-12 01:20:37 UTC

Post by Theo

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

For the mobile network comms hubs there's a variety of different antennas
they can fit depending on the location. Do the UHF versions also have
different antenna options?

No, the ones on the Arqiva network have no option for an external antenna, only the built-in (and unchangeable) one.

Post by Theo
Also I think the comms hubs can make a mesh network to get signal via the
neighbours' meters as well as sending directly. Do both kinds of comms hub
do that?

I am guessing that that is the same form of communication as is used between gas and electricity meters - and even that can be difficult. The separation of houses (particularly in poor signal, countryside areas) likely means that that won't work in many cases.

But if it's approximately 423MHz signal, it should have good penetrating power.

The box has WAN and HAN. The HAN (Home Area network, sorta like a Bluetooth with
some kind of pairing or something) could be 2.4GHz Zigbee, while the WAN could
be the 423MHz thing using a PCB antenna. You will need to review the lighting pattern
on the WAN LED, for some idea of what it is doing (searching for signal).

https://anengineersview.tech.blog/smets2-is-there-anybody-there/

There could be more than one reason for this scheme to fail.
The WAN could be a 1 watt transmitter and I presume the PCB antenna has a
single lobe sticking out the front of the box. And that lobe should be
pointed at your nearest broadcast TV antenna tower (where the 423MHz receiver *could* be
located). Perhaps rotating the comms box, would be enough.

The article above, one of the proposals, is to retrofit a Slim Jim antenna,
cut to 423MHz length.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170606235706/https://jeroen.steeman.org/Antenna/Slim-Jim-Antenna-Calculator

A Reddit article was proposing some sort of passive antenna scheme (so you don't
open any box, violate any "seals" on box and so on). One antenna, a dipole,
would be located right next to the casing of the comms box, then another antenna
would be placed outside the building. The idea did not include details about
whether the individual was going to bother matching it, or just accept a bit
of inefficiency in the energy transfer.

This isn't enough detail for the passive scheme, but maybe someone in the
audience can make sense of it. There is one picture on this page, of an antenna
seemingly taped to the unit, and maybe there is a balun hiding under the black tape.
But what is outside the house, on the other end of the coax cable, dunno. Sometimes,
with antennas, details don't matter. For example, at 200MHz UHF, it doesn't
matter what shape a thing is, how poor the impedance match, signal just floods in.
It's rather awful actually. At other frequencies, you have to behave like a
radio engineer :-)

https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/1825unn/uk_smart_meter_signal_booster_420_mhz_range/

Paul

The Natural Philosopher

2024-11-12 08:21:22 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

For the mobile network comms hubs there's a variety of different antennas
they can fit depending on the location. Do the UHF versions also have
different antenna options?

No, the ones on the Arqiva network have no option for an external antenna, only the built-in (and unchangeable) one.

Post by Theo
Also I think the comms hubs can make a mesh network to get signal via the
neighbours' meters as well as sending directly. Do both kinds of comms hub
do that?

I am guessing that that is the same form of communication as is used between gas and electricity meters - and even that can be difficult. The separation of houses (particularly in poor signal, countryside areas) likely means that that won't work in many cases.

But if it's approximately 423MHz signal, it should have good penetrating power.

My experience with the Oil watchman (around that frequency) is that its
about thee same as wifi (2.4GHz), or perhaps slightly worse.

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra

Paul

2024-11-12 11:51:06 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

For the mobile network comms hubs there's a variety of different antennas
they can fit depending on the location. Do the UHF versions also have
different antenna options?

No, the ones on the Arqiva network have no option for an external antenna, only the built-in (and unchangeable) one.

Post by Theo
Also I think the comms hubs can make a mesh network to get signal via the
neighbours' meters as well as sending directly. Do both kinds of comms hub
do that?

I am guessing that that is the same form of communication as is used between gas and electricity meters - and even that can be difficult. The separation of houses (particularly in poor signal, countryside areas) likely means that that won't work in many cases.

But if it's approximately 423MHz signal, it should have good penetrating power.

My experience with the Oil watchman (around that frequency) is that its about thee same as wifi (2.4GHz), or perhaps slightly worse.

It could be the power level of the signal, or, the modulation scheme
does not have enough "features" for robust detection (something like FEC
Forward Error Correction, which has been used to get a couple more dB of
sensitivity).

It could also be a subscription or channel fill problem. For example,
our smart meters here, transmit every fifteen minutes, and the Store and Forward
protocol used, there is no sign the communications scheme has limits.
Whereas your readings are on a one hour or four hour basis. I could see on
the 4G network, you don't want to be compromising normal phone usage,
but perhaps on this other scheme, the reduced reporting rate is
to keep the channel capacity up (support more customers).

The nice thing about the frequency choice, is you could use a cheap SDR
for sniffing purposes. Not because you wanted to "check your readings"
and decode what is in transit, but rather, just to see if the equipment
is doing a lot of retries and seems to have good signal amplitude
(coming back from the receiving box). Maybe the signal has enough
amplitude, but is corrupted by another station transmitting at the same
time.

The first time I got Ethernet working in the lab, it was pretty funny.
You're supposed to use a random number generator for the backoff algo.
So I'm doing a test of the first bringup, and every time two nodes
go to transmit, they stomp on each others toes, go to max retry, and
both time out. As if the channel is full. It didn't take too long to
figure out that I'd managed to seed the random number generators
in a "less than random way". A trivial change to the firmware and it
starts working :-) I hope given this is a custom scheme, that
the bugs have been worked out :-)

Paul

The Natural Philosopher

2024-11-11 14:17:40 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

It's the BBC. "I don't listen to the BBC for the same reason I don't
drink out of the toilet."

Post by Adam Funk
(Yes, I know mobile signals are technically a kind of radio signal.)

I doubt the BBC does...

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

Andrew

2024-11-17 18:23:59 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

It's the BBC. "I don't listen to the BBC for the same reason I don't
drink out of the toilet."

Cats do

Post by Adam Funk
(Yes, I know mobile signals are technically a kind of radio signal.)

I doubt the BBC does...

The Natural Philosopher

2024-11-17 22:17:49 UTC

Post by Andrew

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?

It's the BBC. "I don't listen to the BBC for the same reason I don't
drink out of the toilet."

Cats do

I expect they listen to the BBC too.

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

Tim+

2024-11-11 15:13:20 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?
(Yes, I know mobile signals are technically a kind of radio signal.)

I think simply because the mobile data comms units used in the south have a
socket for an external aerial, whereas the “radio” ones don’t.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Theo

2024-11-11 15:55:09 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?
(Yes, I know mobile signals are technically a kind of radio signal.)

I think simply because the mobile data comms units used in the south have a
socket for an external aerial, whereas the “radio” ones don’t.

It seems like there's quite a menu of options for radio/antenna/mesh choices
in the south, but just one comms hub/antenna option without mesh in the
north:
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

So not surprising that the north have signal problems if there is basically
nothing the installers can do if they're in a not-spot.

Theo

Andy Burns

2024-11-11 16:20:50 UTC

Post by Theo
just one comms hub/antenna option without mesh in the
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

That shows there is a second type of hub for the North region, made by
Wistron/Toshiba using mobile phone signals (still no aerial socket).

Theo

2024-11-11 17:38:17 UTC

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
just one comms hub/antenna option without mesh in the
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

That shows there is a second type of hub for the North region, made by
Wistron/Toshiba using mobile phone signals (still no aerial socket).

Which one is that? The only Wistron (WNC)/Toshiba I can see there (SKU1) is
for the south/central region.

Theo

Andy Burns

2024-11-11 18:01:37 UTC

Post by Theo

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
just one comms hub/antenna option without mesh in the
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

That shows there is a second type of hub for the North region, made by
Wistron/Toshiba using mobile phone signals (still no aerial socket).

Which one is that? The only Wistron (WNC)/Toshiba I can see there (SKU1) is
for the south/central region.

My eye was confused by the table, because the 1st and 2nd rows of the
5th column were merged, I thought the 1st column was too, but I see the
wistron only applies to Central/South.

Andy Burns

2024-11-11 16:14:24 UTC

Post by Tim+
I think simply because the mobile data comms units used in the south have a
socket for an external aerial, whereas the “radio” ones don’t.

For 2G/3G comms hubs in Central/South region, I think there are SKU1
comms hubs, with an internal aerial and no aerial socket.

Then there are SKU2 comms hubs which come with a small "T1" aerial, but
can be upgraded to a longer "T2" aerial, both for indoor use.

Failing that, there is an option for a "T3" outdoor aerial, but that
needs booking for a special appointment.

For Arqiva comms hubs in the North region there only seems to be one
SKU, and no options for other aerials at all.

Adam Funk

2024-11-11 16:01:54 UTC

Why does it say mobile signals can be improved with an aerial but
nothing about improving radio signals that way?
(Yes, I know mobile signals are technically a kind of radio signal.)

I think simply because the mobile data comms units used in the south have a
socket for an external aerial, whereas the “radio” ones don’t.

Thanks.

Tricky Dicky

2024-11-11 13:50:27 UTC

We live North of the dividing line and have never had problems with
communicating with the supplier even though we live in the Pennines. Our
problem has been the gas meter communicating with the electric meter right
next to it. After many attempts at software upgrades we finally got them to
change the meter and so far so good. Apparently according to the meter
changer it was the battery that was knackered before its time.

Max Demian

2024-11-11 18:49:46 UTC

No-one mentions the obvious "shitness" of smart meters. (They didn't in
the recent Channel 5 programme either):

1. They don't measure the consumption of individual appliances;
2. They don't tell you the average consumption of an individual
appliance (such as a fridge);
3. They don't enable you to measure the total energy consumption for a
particular process e.g. to compare cooking a jacket potato in an oven or
a microwave, or cooking a stew entirely on the hob as opposed to
starting on the hob and finishing in the oven;
4. They enable suppliers to switch your power off remotely, "by mistake";
5. They enable the suppliers to charge different rates at different
time, not just in an easy to understand way like Economy 7 but also to
bump up the rate just when you want to cook dinner.

--
Max Demian

Tim+

2024-11-11 20:41:35 UTC

No-one mentions the obvious "shitness" of smart meters. (They didn't in
1. They don't measure the consumption of individual appliances;
2. They don't tell you the average consumption of an individual
appliance (such as a fridge);
3. They don't enable you to measure the total energy consumption for a
particular process e.g. to compare cooking a jacket potato in an oven or
a microwave, or cooking a stew entirely on the hob as opposed to
starting on the hob and finishing in the oven;
4. They enable suppliers to switch your power off remotely, "by mistake";
5. They enable the suppliers to charge different rates at different
time, not just in an easy to understand way like Economy 7 but also to
bump up the rate just when you want to cook dinner.

Ah, what you want is a MAGIC meter. Maybe you need to tone down your
expectations a little?

Seriously, until every appliance comes with built in power monitoring and
comms, there’s no way a supply meter can differentiate who’s using what and
when.

Until then, a meter that can monitor half hourly consumption and enable
power companies to offer smart tariffs that offer consumers much more
control over their energy costs seems like a good thing to me.

Nothing stopping you sticking with dumb tariffs.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Max Demian

2024-11-12 11:13:51 UTC

No I don't. I just think they should have said it was a way to get rid
of meter readers and not claimed that it would enable you to save money.

Post by Tim+
Until then, a meter that can monitor half hourly consumption and enable
power companies to offer smart tariffs that offer consumers much more
control over their energy costs seems like a good thing to me.

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

Post by Tim+
Nothing stopping you sticking with dumb tariffs.

They'll just bump up the rates for the dumb tariff.

--
Max Demian

Tim+

2024-11-12 14:59:47 UTC

No I don't. I just think they should have said it was a way to get rid
of meter readers and not claimed that it would enable you to save money.

It helps ME to save a LOT of money. I doubt this will get past your
blinkers though…

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

But you could choose to time-shift other power consumption if you wanted
to. Dishwasher, washing machine, maybe immersion heater, other electric
heating. The choice is yours.

Post by Tim+
Nothing stopping you sticking with dumb tariffs.

They'll just bump up the rates for the dumb tariff.

So that makes it smart to stay on a dumb tariff?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim Streater

2024-11-12 17:11:58 UTC

Post by Max Demian
No I don't. I just think they should have said it was a way to get rid

of meter readers and not claimed that it would enable you to save money.

It helps ME to save a LOT of money. I doubt this will get past your
blinkers though…

At the cost of a lot of time and effort. Anyone can save dosh by going around
after everyone else and turning thermostats down, lights off, and being in
charge of when appliances run. My brother did this for grins because they'd
installled a new meter (this was several years ago) which started off by
reading zero. He managed to reduce his power consumption by 50%. Mind you, a
lot of this was turning off billyuns of wall warts which the family just left
plugged in and on. But you have to be really anal to achieve this.

Post by Max Demian
Until then, a meter that can monitor half hourly consumption and enabl
power companies to offer smart tariffs that offer consumers much more
control over their energy costs seems like a good thing to me.

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

But you could choose to time-shift other power consumption if you wanted
to. Dishwasher, washing machine, maybe immersion heater, other electric
heating. The choice is yours.

Since we're oil and wood-burner heated here, that leaves the DW and the WM.
Savings on teh volts would be peanuts. I could turn off the computer systems
overnight but I choose not to do that.

--
Britain sitting behind the protectionist wall of the Customs Union is doing absolutely nothing for the oppressed coffee bean growers of the developing world. How ironic then that the cappuccino-swilling hordes of Hove voted in large numbers to keep some of the world's poorest people and traders locked out of our markets.

Tom Bewick - Labour councillor in Brighton and Hove

Paul

2024-11-17 23:12:31 UTC

Post by Tim Streater
I could turn off the computer systems
overnight but I choose not to do that.

Would your opinion change if you measured them ?

I have two systems, one idles at 100W, the
other idles at 22W. Guess which one remains running...

Maybe I should do a measurement, and see how
good I can do. If you reduce the memory to
a single DIMM, that can still be enough for
an OS, while saving a tiny bit of power.

A good system uses the iGPU inside the CPU.
That's one of the ways you can save power,
unplug the NVidia desktop card, just run
off the iGPU for graphics.

Paul

The Natural Philosopher

2024-11-18 08:08:06 UTC

Post by Tim Streater
I could turn off the computer systems
overnight but I choose not to do that.

Would your opinion change if you measured them ?
I have two systems, one idles at 100W, the
other idles at 22W. Guess which one remains running...
Maybe I should do a measurement, and see how
good I can do. If you reduce the memory to
a single DIMM, that can still be enough for
an OS, while saving a tiny bit of power.
A good system uses the iGPU inside the CPU.
That's one of the ways you can save power,
unplug the NVidia desktop card, just run
off the iGPU for graphics.
Paul

The RAM doesnt use much power at all.

CPU and GPU are the ones.

With the CPU the less the transistor size and the lower the clock speed
the cooler it will run. Going to a core I5 from a clunky old celeron
saved a lot.

Dumping a separate graphics card also helps a lot

An intel based server should be able to drop down to 25-30W at idle if
you buy the right components

ARM based machines can use a bit less, but the performance will suffer

--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

Chris Green

2024-11-18 09:32:52 UTC

Post by Tim Streater
I could turn off the computer systems
overnight but I choose not to do that.

Would your opinion change if you measured them ?
I have two systems, one idles at 100W, the
other idles at 22W. Guess which one remains running...
Maybe I should do a measurement, and see how
good I can do. If you reduce the memory to
a single DIMM, that can still be enough for
an OS, while saving a tiny bit of power.
A good system uses the iGPU inside the CPU.
That's one of the ways you can save power,
unplug the NVidia desktop card, just run
off the iGPU for graphics.
Paul

The RAM doesnt use much power at all.
CPU and GPU are the ones.
With the CPU the less the transistor size and the lower the clock speed
the cooler it will run. Going to a core I5 from a clunky old celeron
saved a lot.
Dumping a separate graphics card also helps a lot
An intel based server should be able to drop down to 25-30W at idle if
you buy the right components

Much less than that nowadays.

Post by The Natural Philosopher
ARM based machines can use a bit less, but the performance will suffer

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green

2024-11-18 09:31:51 UTC

Post by Tim Streater
I could turn off the computer systems
overnight but I choose not to do that.

Would your opinion change if you measured them ?
I have two systems, one idles at 100W, the
other idles at 22W. Guess which one remains running...
Maybe I should do a measurement, and see how
good I can do. If you reduce the memory to
a single DIMM, that can still be enough for
an OS, while saving a tiny bit of power.
A good system uses the iGPU inside the CPU.
That's one of the ways you can save power,
unplug the NVidia desktop card, just run
off the iGPU for graphics.

I got my systems down to 20 watts or so years ago. My current desktop
system (I5, 2TB disk drive, 16GB memory) idles at about 5 watts.

--
Chris Green
·

Max Demian

2024-11-12 18:16:50 UTC

No I don't. I just think they should have said it was a way to get rid
of meter readers and not claimed that it would enable you to save money.

It helps ME to save a LOT of money. I doubt this will get past your
blinkers though…

I listed why the "smart" meters just don't give you the necessary
information for this.

You can turn the thermostat down, turn off things that aren't necessary
and replace appliances with more efficient ones without consulting your
magic meter.

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

But you could choose to time-shift other power consumption if you wanted
to. Dishwasher, washing machine, maybe immersion heater, other electric
heating. The choice is yours.

My washing machine uses about 25p worth of electricity for the usual
cycle I use.

I used to live in a place with Economy 7, a storage heater and an
immersion heater on off-peak electricity. Quite a good system, but
somewhat wasteful as you can't turn the heat off when you go out and you
have hot water when you don't want it. Gas is a lot cheaper in any case
and you only use it when you want it.

Post by Tim+
Nothing stopping you sticking with dumb tariffs.

They'll just bump up the rates for the dumb tariff.

So that makes it smart to stay on a dumb tariff?

No, it enables the suppliers to make more money. Like the way Economy 7
bumps up the peak rate to make off peak look better. (The difference
between the peak and off-peak rates reduced with time.)

--
Max Demian

mm0fmf

2024-11-12 18:26:21 UTC

without consulting your magic meter.

May I suggest that you can walk and chew gum at the same time which is
why you could do this!

An awful lot of people really are too stupid to understand they don't
need a smart meter to save money on their current energy consumption habits.

Tim+

2024-11-12 18:42:19 UTC

No I don't. I just think they should have said it was a way to get rid
of meter readers and not claimed that it would enable you to save money.

That reason belongs alongside electric street lighting putting lamplighters
out of a job or alarm clock manufacturers putting “knockers up” out of a
job.

Post by Tim+
It helps ME to save a LOT of money. I doubt this will get past your
blinkers though…

I listed why the "smart" meters just don't give you the necessary
information for this.

No. You listed a range of fantasy ideas that you have about what you
thought smart meters ought to do.

Post by Max Demian
You can turn the thermostat down, turn off things that aren't necessary
and replace appliances with more efficient ones without consulting your
magic meter.

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

But you could choose to time-shift other power consumption if you wanted
to. Dishwasher, washing machine, maybe immersion heater, other electric
heating. The choice is yours.

My washing machine uses about 25p worth of electricity for the usual
cycle I use.
I used to live in a place with Economy 7, a storage heater and an
immersion heater on off-peak electricity. Quite a good system, but
somewhat wasteful as you can't turn the heat off when you go out and you
have hot water when you don't want it. Gas is a lot cheaper in any case
and you only use it when you want it.

Post by Tim+
Nothing stopping you sticking with dumb tariffs.

They'll just bump up the rates for the dumb tariff.

So that makes it smart to stay on a dumb tariff?

No, it enables the suppliers to make more money. Like the way Economy 7
bumps up the peak rate to make off peak look better. (The difference
between the peak and off-peak rates reduced with time.)

Yeah, there’re making a bundle out of me. From a recent bill I can see
that I used 809 kWhrs of power in one month and paid £79 (and that includes
standing charges). That works out at just over 9p per kWhr.

How much are you saving on your tariff?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Chris Green

2024-11-12 19:18:46 UTC

Post by Tim+
How much are you saving on your tariff?

I'm not saving anything, I'm just paying a large amount or a small
amount accoding to the tariff.

--
Chris Green
·

Max Demian

2024-11-13 19:02:04 UTC

No I don't. I just think they should have said it was a way to get rid
of meter readers and not claimed that it would enable you to save money.

That reason belongs alongside electric street lighting putting lamplighters
out of a job or alarm clock manufacturers putting “knockers up” out of a
job.

Post by Tim+
It helps ME to save a LOT of money. I doubt this will get past your
blinkers though…

I listed why the "smart" meters just don't give you the necessary
information for this.

No. You listed a range of fantasy ideas that you have about what you
thought smart meters ought to do.

They would if they were any use. And they still wouldn't be "smart".

Post by Max Demian
You can turn the thermostat down, turn off things that aren't necessary
and replace appliances with more efficient ones without consulting your
magic meter.

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

But you could choose to time-shift other power consumption if you wanted
to. Dishwasher, washing machine, maybe immersion heater, other electric
heating. The choice is yours.

My washing machine uses about 25p worth of electricity for the usual
cycle I use.
I used to live in a place with Economy 7, a storage heater and an
immersion heater on off-peak electricity. Quite a good system, but
somewhat wasteful as you can't turn the heat off when you go out and you
have hot water when you don't want it. Gas is a lot cheaper in any case
and you only use it when you want it.

Post by Tim+
Nothing stopping you sticking with dumb tariffs.

They'll just bump up the rates for the dumb tariff.

So that makes it smart to stay on a dumb tariff?

No, it enables the suppliers to make more money. Like the way Economy 7
bumps up the peak rate to make off peak look better. (The difference
between the peak and off-peak rates reduced with time.)

I pay 7p per kWH (for gas) where I am living now.

--
Max Demian

Tim Streater

2024-11-12 17:03:50 UTC

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

Yes, it is all bollocks isn't it. As if we have time to waste spending all day
scheduling power usage and the like. Oh wait, you could get one of the
servants to do it. Servants will be back to being two-a-penny once the green
revolution kicks in.

--
The reason you think government is the solution is because you think freedom is the problem. But the truth is that government ensures that the most evil, ruthless people end up in control, because the state is a single point of failure, and a high-value target of corruption.

Alan Lovejoy

alan_m

2024-11-16 10:51:34 UTC

Post by Tim Streater

I decide when to eat based on habit and hunger; I don't want the energy
supplier deciding for me (or, even worse, "nudging" me).

I doubt very much that anyone is going around adjusting their usage day
to day to achieve what can be large savings. They get into a habit of
,say, loading the washing machine and setting the delay so it comes on
when the supply is at its lowest cost, charging a EV when it's the
lowest cost, not using certain appliances when it's the highest cost.
All of these are likely to be the same each day of the year with most
cheaper tariffs. It doesn't necessarily mean that you change your meal
times nor turn on the heating at a different time if it suddenly gets cold.

Smart tariffs are replacing things like economy 7 but often by reducing
the "off peak" hours can offer electricity 4x cheaper during those
hours. Some people now have lifestyles that can take real advantage of
cheap of-peak electricity. People with electric storage heaters may save
money being on a tariff primarily aimed at charging EVs overnight. The
utility companies don't care what you are doing with the electricity,
charging EVs, or topping up storage heaters or shifting domestic usage
with a 10kWH battery etc.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

N_Cook

2024-11-16 14:43:59 UTC

shifting domestic usage with a 10kWH battery

Thats an intriqguing one, I wonder how many people are doing that

--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

alan_m

2024-11-16 18:10:51 UTC

shifting domestic usage with a 10kWH battery

Thats an intriqguing one, I wonder how many people are doing that

It's possibly becoming more popular with those with solar on the roof.
During the Summer months use the energy captured during the middle of
the day at evening/night. When solar is not producing much in the winter
the same investment in storage can be used to charge during periods of
cheap energy on the grid for use when the energy on the grid is expensive.

Currently, and for the next few years, it may be the golden period for
such manipulation to be financially viable. When the majority of the
population is charging their EVs and ASHP are possibly running for
longer periods than a gas boiler there may not be so much of an off-peak
period and less of a differential between peak and off-peak prices. The
payback period for the up-front costs of a battery may become lengthy.

The economics of such an arrangement also depends on energy prices. This
Labour Government claims the average UK bill will reduce by £1400, and
by 2030, or on the other hand we may import some genetically engineered
flying pigs from the USA.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

N_Cook

2024-11-16 18:44:21 UTC

shifting domestic usage with a 10kWH battery

Thats an intriqguing one, I wonder how many people are doing that

It's possibly becoming more popular with those with solar on the roof.
During the Summer months use the energy captured during the middle of
the day at evening/night. When solar is not producing much in the winter
the same investment in storage can be used to charge during periods of
cheap energy on the grid for use when the energy on the grid is expensive.
Currently, and for the next few years, it may be the golden period for
such manipulation to be financially viable. When the majority of the
population is charging their EVs and ASHP are possibly running for
longer periods than a gas boiler there may not be so much of an off-peak
period and less of a differential between peak and off-peak prices. The
payback period for the up-front costs of a battery may become lengthy.
The economics of such an arrangement also depends on energy prices. This
Labour Government claims the average UK bill will reduce by £1400, and
by 2030, or on the other hand we may import some genetically engineered
flying pigs from the USA.

May coincide timewise with loads of surplus, expensive to recyclem,
first generation Ev batteries that are no longer suitable for traction
purposes, ie less charge but same weight. The weight is no issue in a
house, so multiple ex-Evs batteries makes sense for time shifting
overnight lecky.

--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

Davey

2024-11-17 14:28:06 UTC

On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 18:10:51 +0000

shifting domestic usage with a 10kWH battery

Thats an intriqguing one, I wonder how many people are doing that

It's possibly becoming more popular with those with solar on the
roof. During the Summer months use the energy captured during the
middle of the day at evening/night. When solar is not producing much
in the winter the same investment in storage can be used to charge
during periods of cheap energy on the grid for use when the energy on
the grid is expensive.
Currently, and for the next few years, it may be the golden period
for such manipulation to be financially viable. When the majority of
the population is charging their EVs and ASHP are possibly running
for longer periods than a gas boiler there may not be so much of an
off-peak period and less of a differential between peak and off-peak
prices. The payback period for the up-front costs of a battery may
become lengthy.
The economics of such an arrangement also depends on energy prices.
This Labour Government claims the average UK bill will reduce by
£1400, and by 2030, or on the other hand we may import some
genetically engineered flying pigs from the USA.

If we eat enough genetically engineered flying pigs, will we also be
able to fly, even if it takes a generation or two?

--
Davey.

The Natural Philosopher

2024-11-17 17:43:00 UTC

Post by Davey
On Sat, 16 Nov 2024 18:10:51 +0000

shifting domestic usage with a 10kWH battery

Thats an intriqguing one, I wonder how many people are doing that

It's possibly becoming more popular with those with solar on the
roof. During the Summer months use the energy captured during the
middle of the day at evening/night. When solar is not producing much
in the winter the same investment in storage can be used to charge
during periods of cheap energy on the grid for use when the energy on
the grid is expensive.
Currently, and for the next few years, it may be the golden period
for such manipulation to be financially viable. When the majority of
the population is charging their EVs and ASHP are possibly running
for longer periods than a gas boiler there may not be so much of an
off-peak period and less of a differential between peak and off-peak
prices. The payback period for the up-front costs of a battery may
become lengthy.
The economics of such an arrangement also depends on energy prices.
This Labour Government claims the average UK bill will reduce by
£1400, and by 2030, or on the other hand we may import some
genetically engineered flying pigs from the USA.

If we eat enough genetically engineered flying pigs, will we also be
able to fly, even if it takes a generation or two?

You can self identify as a bird and jump off a tall building already.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

Tim+

2024-11-16 19:11:27 UTC

shifting domestic usage with a 10kWH battery

Thats an intriqguing one, I wonder how many people are doing that

<waves>

Combined with solar in our case.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

alan_m

2024-11-16 10:20:17 UTC

Post by Tim+
Ah, what you want is a MAGIC meter. Maybe you need to tone down your
expectations a little?

And with the magic meter there would be complaints that the utility
companies are spying on your day to day activities.

It's bad enough that smart TVs report back over the net that you are
watching porn, you don't want your freezer to report back that you are
also binge eating ice cream whilst doing so. :)

Post by Tim+
Seriously, until every appliance comes with built in power monitoring and
comms, there’s no way a supply meter can differentiate who’s using what and
when.
Until then, a meter that can monitor half hourly consumption

Electric meters can monitor to a 10 second resolution. My supplier
provides an interface device so that I can see in near real time the
electricity consumption on my smart phone in graphical form. I could
estimate the consumption of, say, my microwave when heating something
for a minute.

Post by Tim+
and enable
power companies to offer smart tariffs that offer consumers much more
control over their energy costs seems like a good thing to me.

I'm on a tariff that changes daily. The gamble I'm taking is that it's
capped at around 4x the cap for a "standard variable" tariff but so far
the daily rate has been the around the same or lower than the standard
variable" tariff. I also have the get out option of swapping tariffs
with a no exit fee penalty.

Post by Tim+
Nothing stopping you sticking with dumb tariffs.

Yep, depending on you lifestyle a smart meter can give you more choice
in the tariffs available to you, especially cheap overnight tariffs if
you are running a EV or have a 5/10kWh battery.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

charles

2024-11-11 20:45:02 UTC

No-one mentions the obvious "shitness" of smart meters. (They didn't in
1. They don't measure the consumption of individual appliances;

They measure the whole house supply - just like any other meter.

Post by Max Demian
2. They don't tell you the average consumption of an individual
appliance (such as a fridge);

as above

Post by Max Demian
3. They don't enable you to measure the total energy consumption for a
particular process e.g. to compare cooking a jacket potato in an oven or
a microwave, or cooking a stew entirely on the hob as opposed to
starting on the hob and finishing in the oven;

as above

Post by Max Demian
4. They enable suppliers to switch your power off remotely, "by mistake";

Possibly - I've had mine for over 5 years without this happening

Post by Max Demian
5. They enable the suppliers to charge different rates at different
time, not just in an easy to understand way like Economy 7 but also to
bump up the rate just when you want to cook dinner.

Highly beneficial for me - I can charge my EV at a cheap rate

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

The Natural Philosopher

2024-11-12 08:19:59 UTC

Post by charles
They measure the whole house supply - just like any other meter.

Except the USP was that you could 'monitor your electricity usage' and
thereby save money..

--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy

Adrian Caspersz

2024-11-12 19:07:40 UTC

Post by charles
They measure the whole house supply - just like any other meter.

Except the USP was that you could 'monitor your electricity usage' and
thereby save money..

Most of the "In Home Display" things remain connected AND unfortunately
ignored in homes where the users don't really understand them.

Spending a fiver a day on Gas and Electric, is well - cost of a happily
disposable beer down the pub. For some people it might not be like that,
and monitoring might make some sense - but once the initial fascination
has ceased, these things will just live in a drawer.

I don't know why they bothered to send them out to all. Someone profited.

--
Adrian C

alan_m

2024-11-16 11:00:04 UTC

Post by charles
They measure the whole house supply - just like any other meter.

Except the USP was that you could 'monitor your electricity usage' and
thereby save money..

Yes, they started off by saying that a smart meter would save you
hundreds per annum. They than had to admit it was more like an average
of £15 per annum but this was probably a bit misleading because it
coincided with many people replacing traditional light bulbs with low
energy bulbs given away for "free" by the energy companies (free as in
that you actually paid for them in the stealth green tax in your bill).

It's now being sold as "save the fragile National Grid" because the UK
has adopted the wrong policy for renewable energy.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

charles

2024-11-17 17:30:04 UTC

Post by charles
They measure the whole house supply - just like any other meter.

Except the USP was that you could 'monitor your electricity usage' and
thereby save money..

I reckonn that by charging my EV during the overnight cheap rate, I
probably saved about £1200 last year.

Post by alan_m
It's now being sold as "save the fragile National Grid" because the UK
has adopted the wrong policy for renewable energy.
-

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Paul

2024-11-11 20:59:47 UTC

1. They don't measure the consumption of individual appliances;
2. They don't tell you the average consumption of an individual appliance (such as a fridge);
3. They don't enable you to measure the total energy consumption for a particular process e.g. to compare cooking a jacket potato in an oven or a microwave, or cooking a stew entirely on the hob as opposed to starting on the hob and finishing in the oven;
4. They enable suppliers to switch your power off remotely, "by mistake";
5. They enable the suppliers to charge different rates at different time, not just in an easy to understand way like Economy 7 but also to bump up the rate just when you want to cook dinner.

To measure individual appliances, you use one of these.
This is a "miniature smart meter" which is just as accurate (1%)
as your household smart meter is. It uses two 500KHz sigma-delta
converters, to convert the voltage and current waveforms to digital
form, so the meter box can do the math equations and work out
W (watts), VA (VoltAmperes), PF (Power factor). On an electric
fire, the power factor is 1.0 (in phase, non-reactive load).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B2NXPGYW?th=1

Those are best suited, to working out the daily consumption
of your refrigerator.

For an electric fire, you can plug in any electric fire
up to the current flow limit. Measure the values for ten
seconds or so. Then turn off the electric fire and disconnect
it. This prevents thermal damage to the shunt inside the meter.

While the meter has a 13 amp rating, it's best not to run it
at 12.999 amps for a year or so, because that can cause the
solder to melt underneath the shunt :-)

If you put a more-capable shunt in it (more cool-running),
the sensitivity of the ampere conversion circuit must be
cranked up, and it is harder to do the design for that.
while they know how to fix this, they're not changing the design.
If they want 100mV full scale across the shunt, nobody is
changing the circuit to 10mV full scale, and delivering
*inaccurate* readings to the user. There could be some
degradation of the conversion process, if making the
full scale value on the shunt, too low of a value.

So the design of the miniature meter, is ideal for refrigerator
and IBM PC. The numbers should be good to 1% . For an electric
fire, a ten second reading should verify what you already know
about electric fires :-) Their consumption is proportional to
voltage, if your line voltage is too high, your electric fire
draws too much current. This is not a fault of the electric fire.
Electric fires would be too expensive if they were fitted with
"regulation". It is the job of your power supplier to implement
"regulation" and deliver the exact right voltage. (I'm saying
that for the benefit of my power company, who do not know this!)

Paul

Max Demian

2024-11-12 11:21:42 UTC

Expensive if you fit one to each appliance. Awkward to swap them around
if it has to be behind the fridge - also hard to read if behind.

Some things don't like to be powered down to swap, such as PVRs that are
about to record something.

Not suitable for a cooker.

Does it give average power and total energy over a period?

--
Max Demian

Theo

2024-11-12 11:52:58 UTC

Post by Paul
To measure individual appliances, you use one of these.
This is a "miniature smart meter" which is just as accurate (1%)
as your household smart meter is. It uses two 500KHz sigma-delta
converters, to convert the voltage and current waveforms to digital
form, so the meter box can do the math equations and work out
W (watts), VA (VoltAmperes), PF (Power factor). On an electric
fire, the power factor is 1.0 (in phase, non-reactive load).
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B2NXPGYW?th=1

Expensive if you fit one to each appliance. Awkward to swap them around
if it has to be behind the fridge - also hard to read if behind.

The ones I have are wifi-based. Not these ones, but similar can be had for
about 8 quid a pop:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ANTELA-Control-Monitoring-Wireless-Required/dp/B09VP5KNWM

They talk to an app written by an IoT platform like Tuya.

Post by Max Demian
Some things don't like to be powered down to swap, such as PVRs that are
about to record something.

Presumably there is some way to safely power those down? You don't need to
swap very often.

Post by Max Demian
Not suitable for a cooker.

There are current transformer versions:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/POFET-Energy-Monitor-Electricity-Compatible/dp/B0CHM7W9V4

Post by Max Demian
Does it give average power and total energy over a period?

Yes, they do - as well as graphs etc in the app.

(you can always connect them to a better system like Home Assistant to do
more analysis of the data if you want. I replaced the firmware on mine so
they also have a local web page)

Theo

Paul

2024-11-12 12:02:17 UTC

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B2NXPGYW?th=1

Expensive if you fit one to each appliance. Awkward to swap them around if it has to be behind the fridge - also hard to read if behind.
Some things don't like to be powered down to swap, such as PVRs that are about to record something.
Not suitable for a cooker.
Does it give average power and total energy over a period?

That's part of the purchase decision by the user. The meters
have a "basic measurement capability". There is usually at least
one button on the meter, for the derivative information,
such as the parameters you describe (average power or summed kwh).
As I indicated, you can also input the cost per kwh into the meter,
so it reads out in pounds, but really, having the readout in kwh is good
enough.

I've also not seen any Bluetooth versions of these things,
so you can pass readings to a personal computer for further
analysis. The boxes seem to be mostly self contained
and not IoT material.

But on balance, I feel every household should have one of these,
just to settle arguments over "vampire loads". For example, say
you have a big screen TV, and one family member insists it is wasting
power when it is off. By using one of those meters, you can answer the
question, by cycling the TV on, examining some readings, cycling
the TV off, watching for a minute or ten minutes, for activity.
Some of the snooper TV sets, even listen in with a microphone
when the TV is off, and those sets will have some electrical
loading while doing so. Having a power meter, gives you a hint
about whether it is "snoop capable". To be EuP, perhaps the
set should really only draw about 0.5 watt at most. If you're
seeing 10 watts, maybe it's a snooper.

I monitor my PC for "unseen activity", using the power meter.
And there have been some weird changes in consumption. The
power consumption was dropping with time (over the months),
which does not make a lot of sense. This would not have happened
in the WinXP era.

Paul

David Wade

2024-11-12 12:59:06 UTC

No-one mentions the obvious "shitness" of smart meters. (They didn't
1. They don't measure the consumption of individual appliances;
2. They don't tell you the average consumption of an individual
appliance (such as a fridge);
3. They don't enable you to measure the total energy consumption for
a particular process e.g. to compare cooking a jacket potato in an
oven or a microwave, or cooking a stew entirely on the hob as opposed
to starting on the hob and finishing in the oven;
4. They enable suppliers to switch your power off remotely, "by mistake";
5. They enable the suppliers to charge different rates at different
time, not just in an easy to understand way like Economy 7 but also
to bump up the rate just when you want to cook dinner.

Expensive if you fit one to each appliance. Awkward to swap them around
if it has to be behind the fridge - also hard to read if behind.

You can get WiFi plugs which record to an app for half that price. I
bought one of these:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0BR6CQ11F/

for my beer fridge...

Post by Max Demian
Some things don't like to be powered down to swap, such as PVRs that are
about to record something.

Measuring PVR consumption is pretty pointless. The standby power is
still limited by EU law, so you can calculate that...

Post by Max Demian
Not suitable for a cooker.

Post by Max Demian
Does it give average power and total energy over a period?

.. the app for mine has lots of graphs....

Dave

Max Demian

2024-11-12 18:21:28 UTC

No-one mentions the obvious "shitness" of smart meters. (They didn't
1. They don't measure the consumption of individual appliances;
2. They don't tell you the average consumption of an individual
appliance (such as a fridge);
3. They don't enable you to measure the total energy consumption for
a particular process e.g. to compare cooking a jacket potato in an
oven or a microwave, or cooking a stew entirely on the hob as
opposed to starting on the hob and finishing in the oven;
4. They enable suppliers to switch your power off remotely, "by mistake";
5. They enable the suppliers to charge different rates at different
time, not just in an easy to understand way like Economy 7 but also
to bump up the rate just when you want to cook dinner.

Some things don't like to be powered down to swap, such as PVRs that
are about to record something.

Measuring PVR consumption is pretty pointless. The standby power is
still limited by EU law, so you can calculate that...

"Deep" standby mode stops the aerial signal from passing through to the
next device, so is useless.

--
Max Demian

alan_m

2024-11-16 11:35:35 UTC

Post by Max Demian
"Deep" standby mode stops the aerial signal from passing through to the
next device, so is useless.

Don't most people now only use their TV as monitors if they have an
under TV box?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Max Demian

2024-11-16 18:37:14 UTC

Post by Max Demian
"Deep" standby mode stops the aerial signal from passing through to
the next device, so is useless.

Don't most people now only use their TV as monitors if they have an
under TV box?

Do you mean a streaming box? I have two PVRs, but don't really use the
TV live.

--
Max Demian

alan_m

2024-11-16 20:36:18 UTC

Post by Max Demian
"Deep" standby mode stops the aerial signal from passing through to
the next device, so is useless.

Don't most people now only use their TV as monitors if they have an
under TV box?

Do you mean a streaming box? I have two PVRs, but don't really use the
TV live.

If you are streaming from the net the aerial signal is not being used.
If you using a PVR to watch recordings, live TV or as a streaming box
then the PVR is on and any pass-through works.

Signal from an aerial can be split so signal pass-through from a PVR/box
is not necessarily essential.

Satellite:
Universal LNBs require one feed from the LNB for each tuner so no
pass-through required.
Unicable LNB signals can be split so again no pass-through required.

I'm suggesting that once you have a PVR/STB most people always will be
using that as their "tuner" and don't require an aerial feed to their
TV. If multiple boxes are connected to the same aerial or dish
feed-through from one box to another may not be the best distribution
method.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Max Demian

2024-11-17 12:20:24 UTC

Post by Max Demian
"Deep" standby mode stops the aerial signal from passing through to
the next device, so is useless.

Don't most people now only use their TV as monitors if they have an
under TV box?

Do you mean a streaming box? I have two PVRs, but don't really use the
TV live.

The splitter would have to be passive or there would continue to be
standby consumption.

If reception is marginal the losses in the splitter could be a problem.
I've heard there are "reactive" (as opposed to resistive) splitters that
introduce less losses.

--
Max Demian

alan_m

2024-11-17 13:51:13 UTC

Post by Max Demian
"Deep" standby mode stops the aerial signal from passing through to
the next device, so is useless.

Don't most people now only use their TV as monitors if they have an
under TV box?

Do you mean a streaming box? I have two PVRs, but don't really use
the TV live.

The splitter would have to be passive or there would continue to be
standby consumption.
If reception is marginal the losses in the splitter could be a problem.
I've heard there are "reactive" (as opposed to resistive) splitters that
introduce less losses.

There are losses in both resistive and inductive splitters but in
general use the latter as it's likely to be fully screened while most of
the resistive types are very cheaply made without full screening. There
isn't much difference in cost between the two types - you are only
looking at a couple of quid for a two way splitter.

Something retrieved from the web archive I posted around 13 years ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20210212161227/http://www.admac.myzen.co.uk/Splitter/

I would also suggest if the losses in a 2 way splitter are enough to
cause reception problems then perhaps a better aerial of head end
amplifier would help with a marginal signal.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m

2024-11-16 11:31:30 UTC

Post by David Wade
Measuring PVR consumption is pretty pointless. The standby power is
still limited by EU law, so you can calculate that...

On my PVR standby power is nearly the same as operational power.
Consumption only goes down to <0.5W on deep standby

My PVR can come out of standby to operational in a second.
It takes approx 45 seconds to go from deep standby to operational,
including automatically waking up fro deep standby to perform a recording.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Adrian Caspersz

2024-11-12 02:05:33 UTC

Here's what some of the base stations look like for the north.

Ringway Manchester (YouTube): "Why Did This Appear On My Street?" -

"Is it 5G, is it safe?"

--
Adrian C

Brian

2024-11-15 13:15:49 UTC