Discussion:
electric cars and frosty roads
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fred
2021-01-04 10:54:10 UTC
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I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be effective
Andy Bennet
2021-01-04 11:03:56 UTC
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Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be effective
Obviously a bad choice for you then.
Go back to a smelly old diesel.
Fredxx
2021-01-04 12:22:25 UTC
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Post by Andy Bennet
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as
I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise
mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking  ( not the same as slowing down via
the gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was
only doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser
moment. Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but
that requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not
be quick enough for that to be effective
Obviously a bad choice for you then.
 Go back to a smelly old diesel.
Why not a new diesel that generates less particulates than a EV car?
Andrew
2021-01-04 13:16:30 UTC
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Post by Fredxx
Post by Andy Bennet
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon
as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto
re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking  ( not the same as
slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different
direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok
but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is
possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive
mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be effective
Obviously a bad choice for you then.
  Go back to a smelly old diesel.
Why not a new diesel that generates less particulates than a EV car?
Because EV cars only pay 5% vat on leccy. Limited range is not a problem
for some people. Horses for courses.
Max Demian
2021-01-04 18:15:07 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andy Bennet
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon
as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto
re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking  ( not the same as
slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different
direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok
but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is
possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive
mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be effective
Obviously a bad choice for you then.
  Go back to a smelly old diesel.
Why not a new diesel that generates less particulates than a EV car?
Because EV cars only pay 5% vat on leccy. Limited range is not a problem
for some people. Horses for courses.
Yes, and you can re-fuel your horse on any grass verge.
--
Max Demian
Tim Streater
2021-01-04 18:24:38 UTC
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Post by Max Demian
Post by Andrew
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andy Bennet
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon
as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto
re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking  ( not the same as
slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different
direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok
but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is
possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive
mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be effective
Obviously a bad choice for you then.
  Go back to a smelly old diesel.
Why not a new diesel that generates less particulates than a EV car?
Because EV cars only pay 5% vat on leccy. Limited range is not a problem
for some people. Horses for courses.
Yes, and you can re-fuel your horse on any grass verge.
Pity dobbin has no real low-power mode. Sleep, yes, but no standby mode worth
the name, as power consumption doesn't decrease very much.
--
If socialism helps the poor, why are the poor in socialist countries so much
poorer than the poor in capitalist countries?

Mark
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
2021-01-05 20:37:37 UTC
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No just design the car to behave more like cars normally do. The snag is
that effectively the mode engaged is not sensing the slippage. Braking the
car by attempting to charge the battery sounds like a dangerous choice in
any event. You want to remove drag from the wheels after all. Are you sure
there is no kind of half way mode for this?
Not that I drive but have read of clever things like this being used in
electric cars, so might be worth asking the question in cast its a fault.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Andy Bennet
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the electric
car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would normally
do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came off the
accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode, (i.e.)
equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the gears)
which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only doing
about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment.
Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that
requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick
enough for that to be effective
Obviously a bad choice for you then.
Go back to a smelly old diesel.
www.GymRatZ.co.uk
2021-01-04 11:47:17 UTC
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Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be effective
I thought e-cars had user selectable degrees of regenerative braking
from "brakeless" driving to something closer to regular engine braking?

Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross Climate for
example and dialing back the regenerative braking.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-04 12:50:02 UTC
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Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I
came
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise
mode,
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via
the
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
gears) which threw me off in a different direction.
Front, rear or all four wheel skid? Front or rear wheel drive?

Loss of grip at the back end in a front wheel drive you should apply
power not reduce it, to pull the back end back into line and
hopefully stop it trying to overtake the front. Braking is a no no
but that applies to any loss of grip.
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross Climate for
example
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
--
Cheers
Dave.
fred
2021-01-04 13:54:09 UTC
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Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I
came
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise
mode,
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via
the
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
gears) which threw me off in a different direction.
Front, rear or all four wheel skid? Front or rear wheel drive?
Loss of grip at the back end in a front wheel drive you should apply
power not reduce it, to pull the back end back into line and
hopefully stop it trying to overtake the front. Braking is a no no
but that applies to any loss of grip.
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross Climate for
example
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
--
Cheers
Dave.
That may apply in normal circumstances but skidding on ice is a different kettle of fish as i.m.e. the whole bloody car goes away in a piece.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-04 15:26:07 UTC
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Post by fred
Post by Dave Liquorice
Loss of grip at the back end in a front wheel drive you should apply
power not reduce it, to pull the back end back into line and
hopefully stop it trying to overtake the front. Braking is a no no
but that applies to any loss of grip.
That may apply in normal circumstances but skidding on ice is a
different kettle of fish as i.m.e. the whole bloody car goes away in a
piece.
All 4 broken away on ice with wheels locked up you're just a
passenger until something gets a grip again.

My encounters with black ice have had the the back end going. Have
had the front lock up whilst braking on snow, it's quite a concious
effort to release the brake when your sliding towards a tree to the
left with full right lock on. Release the brake, wheels grip, instant
change in direction across the road...
--
Cheers
Dave.
bert
2021-01-05 22:42:50 UTC
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Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by fred
Post by Dave Liquorice
Loss of grip at the back end in a front wheel drive you should
apply
Post by fred
Post by Dave Liquorice
power not reduce it, to pull the back end back into line and
hopefully stop it trying to overtake the front. Braking is a no no
but that applies to any loss of grip.
That may apply in normal circumstances but skidding on ice is a
different kettle of fish as i.m.e. the whole bloody car goes away in a
piece.
All 4 broken away on ice with wheels locked up you're just a
passenger until something gets a grip again.
Don't they have abs?
Post by Dave Liquorice
My encounters with black ice have had the the back end going. Have
had the front lock up whilst braking on snow, it's quite a concious
effort to release the brake when your sliding towards a tree to the
left with full right lock on. Release the brake, wheels grip, instant
change in direction across the road...
--
bert
NY
2021-01-05 22:51:21 UTC
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Post by bert
Post by Dave Liquorice
All 4 broken away on ice with wheels locked up you're just a
passenger until something gets a grip again.
Don't they have abs?
Post by Dave Liquorice
My encounters with black ice have had the the back end going. Have
had the front lock up whilst braking on snow, it's quite a concious
effort to release the brake when your sliding towards a tree to the
left with full right lock on. Release the brake, wheels grip, instant
change in direction across the road...
Been there. Done that. In my case it was mud on the road on a sharp bend.
The sudden lurch as the wheels regained their grip was painful - but very
welcome.

When it happened again in snow I had the presence of mind to straighten the
wheels so they gripped how easily and were more likely to be braked by ABS.


On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of the
power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver) I hope the
ABS acts on the regen brakes as well as the frictional ones.
F
2021-01-07 14:42:31 UTC
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Post by NY
On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of
the power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver)
It's selectable on ours. Either regen when you take your foot off or
freewheel.
--
Frank
NY
2021-01-07 15:00:20 UTC
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Post by F
Post by NY
On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of
the power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver)
It's selectable on ours. Either regen when you take your foot off or
freewheel.
And presumably *either* way it uses regen in some proportion compared to
friction when you press the footbrake - by turning off regen for freewheel
it presumably doesn't turn it off also for explicit braking.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-07 15:23:42 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by F
Post by NY
On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of
the power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver)
It's selectable on ours. Either regen when you take your foot off or
freewheel.
And presumably *either* way it uses regen in some proportion compared to
friction when you press the footbrake - by turning off regen for
freewheel it presumably doesn't turn it off also for explicit braking.
Makes sense to use re-gen instead of gentle braking.
--
*All generalizations are false.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim+
2021-01-07 17:09:38 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by NY
Post by F
Post by NY
On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of
the power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver)
It's selectable on ours. Either regen when you take your foot off or
freewheel.
And presumably *either* way it uses regen in some proportion compared to
friction when you press the footbrake - by turning off regen for
freewheel it presumably doesn't turn it off also for explicit braking.
Makes sense to use re-gen instead of gentle braking.
Gentle breaking is automatically done using regen. You’d might be
surprised to hear that EV manufacturers have actually thought about all
this stuff and didn’t rely on USENET misinformation for info on how to
build their cars.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-08 11:01:45 UTC
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In article
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by NY
Post by F
Post by NY
On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of
the power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver)
It's selectable on ours. Either regen when you take your foot off or
freewheel.
And presumably *either* way it uses regen in some proportion compared to
friction when you press the footbrake - by turning off regen for
freewheel it presumably doesn't turn it off also for explicit braking.
Makes sense to use re-gen instead of gentle braking.
Gentle breaking is automatically done using regen. You‘d might be
surprised to hear that EV manufacturers have actually thought about all
this stuff and didn‘t rely on USENET misinformation for info on how to
build their cars.
I'm only replying to what I read on here...
--
*Vegetarians taste great*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim+
2021-01-08 13:50:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by NY
Post by F
Post by NY
On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of
the power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver)
It's selectable on ours. Either regen when you take your foot off or
freewheel.
And presumably *either* way it uses regen in some proportion compared to
friction when you press the footbrake - by turning off regen for
freewheel it presumably doesn't turn it off also for explicit braking.
Makes sense to use re-gen instead of gentle braking.
Gentle breaking is automatically done using regen. You‘d might be
surprised to hear that EV manufacturers have actually thought about all
this stuff and didn‘t rely on USENET misinformation for info on how to
build their cars.
I'm only replying to what I read on here...
And if it wasn’t obvious before, even you must be beginning to realise that
when it comes to EVs, this group is NOT a good source of accurate
information. Great place for plenty of anti-EV prejudice though.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-08 15:12:12 UTC
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In article
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I'm only replying to what I read on here...
And if it wasn‘t obvious before, even you must be beginning to realise
that when it comes to EVs, this group is NOT a good source of accurate
information. Great place for plenty of anti-EV prejudice though.
Perhaps you should tell the OP to learn about his EV, then.

I know as much as I want to about them already. That I can't replace my
current car with one like for like. Despite the likes of you telling me
how wonderful they are.
--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
F
2021-01-08 14:52:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by F
Post by NY
On a car with regenerative braking that comes on as soon as you lift of
the power (please tell me that feature can be disabled by the driver)
It's selectable on ours. Either regen when you take your foot off or
freewheel.
And presumably *either* way it uses regen in some proportion compared to
friction when you press the footbrake - by turning off regen for freewheel
it presumably doesn't turn it off also for explicit braking.
It uses regen when you brake using the pedal. If you need more than it
is providing it will add in friction.
--
Frank
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-05 23:54:28 UTC
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Post by bert
Post by Dave Liquorice
All 4 broken away on ice with wheels locked up you're just a
passenger until something gets a grip again.
Don't they have abs?
Not sure what ABS would make of all four wheels locked. It might not
actually let that happen. How ever a four wheel skid without locked
wheels...
--
Cheers
Dave.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-06 09:28:43 UTC
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Post by bert
Post by Dave Liquorice
All 4 broken away on ice with wheels locked up you're just a
passenger until something gets a grip again.
Don't they have abs?
wrong and wrong

I hit black ice at speed - no brakes - first sign was steering wasn't
steering.

I didn't dare hit the brakes, ABS or not. I had just enough steering to
aim the car towards a patch of sunlit road. Once there I turned the car
straight and let it slow down on the NEXT bit of ice until I was doing a
lot less than 100mph...

My mum had a Mk1 Ford escort 1100. The only car that would lose its
front first, and then its rear, on a wet or icy road.

One time going down an icy hill in a manual XJS, I was not on the
throttle, but the engine braking was enough to star the rear
swinging...I uses a bit of throttle to get it straight and prayed for
enough steering for the bend at the bottom. Well there was a lot of
gravel on the edge of the rad, and the front gripped that,

Any set of wheels can break first but you HAVE got a certain amount of
control even so, the key is to react fast and react lightly before te
swing is beyond recovery
--
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Andrew
2021-01-04 18:17:47 UTC
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Post by fred
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I
came
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise
mode,
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via
the
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
gears) which threw me off in a different direction.
Front, rear or all four wheel skid? Front or rear wheel drive?
Loss of grip at the back end in a front wheel drive you should apply
power not reduce it, to pull the back end back into line and
hopefully stop it trying to overtake the front. Braking is a no no
but that applies to any loss of grip.
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross Climate for
example
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
--
Cheers
Dave.
That may apply in normal circumstances but skidding on ice is a different kettle of fish as i.m.e. the whole bloody car goes away in a piece.
In HJ's weekly column in the DT he says in reply -

"Usain volt...

With the advent of the electric car revolution, I have noted some
exceedingly fast acceleration times from a standing start. Although this
is exciting, surely it is not desirable in the normal stop-start
motoring experienced by the majority of motorists in our towns and
cities? DP

HJ

The really quick EVs have four-wheel drive, so wheelspin is better
controlled. You make a valid point, though. On icy roads, the resistance
caused by energy recovery on lift-off or when descending a hill could be
a problem with all EVs and hybrids, but I’m not aware of many reports of
this. Of course, whatever the car’s capability, the amount of power is
controlled by the driver’s right foot. Some cars have an electronic
stability program and traction control to curb excess enthusiasm on the
wrong surfaces.
"
www.GymRatZ.co.uk
2021-01-04 14:10:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross Climate for
example
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
Indeed they are but I've found them to perform equally as well as when I
used Vredstein(sp) in our UK winters.
I meant any tyre with the "3 peak mountain snowflake" rating which is
considered the benchmark for winter/snow etc use etc.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-04 15:39:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross
Climate
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
for example
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
Indeed they are but I've found them to perform equally as well as when I
used Vredstein(sp) in our UK winters.
How much driving on packed snow rather than slush or wet road though?

Generally speaking most people don't encounter much snow these days
as so many roads are treated/ploughed. We have something around 5 or
6" of lying snow today, the roads are just wet and black.

They'll be better than some "go faster in the dry in summer" tyre
with just large smooth blocks. One of my Discovery II's came with
such tyres, fine in the dry, OK(ish) wet, snow forget it any incline
and they'd give up. Wintracs only gave up when going up hill and the
front valance was trying to push the top 2" of snow off the top of
the 3' wide ridge down the middle of the road...
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
I meant any tyre with the "3 peak mountain snowflake" rating which is
considered the benchmark for winter/snow etc use etc.
That's a reasonable guide.
--
Cheers
Dave.
www.GymRatZ.co.uk
2021-01-04 22:53:21 UTC
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Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Indeed they are but I've found them to perform equally as well as when I
used Vredstein(sp) in our UK winters.
How much driving on packed snow rather than slush or wet road though?
Our road is rather steep and never gets salted/ploughed 4WD is the only
thing that can get out as if you go down you still have to go up to get
out the other end and we have what must be the steepest hill in the area
that I always drive up when it snows just because it's there. :)



I've got BFG T/A KO2 on now which are also 3PMSF marked so yet to see
what they're like in the slippy stuff but I'm sure they'll cope just fine.
Post by Dave Liquorice
Generally speaking most people don't encounter much snow these days
as so many roads are treated/ploughed. We have something around 5 or
6" of lying snow today, the roads are just wet and black.
They'll be better than some "go faster in the dry in summer" tyre
with just large smooth blocks. One of my Discovery II's came with
such tyres, fine in the dry, OK(ish) wet, snow forget it any incline
and they'd give up. Wintracs only gave up when going up hill and the
front valance was trying to push the top 2" of snow off the top of
the 3' wide ridge down the middle of the road...
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
I meant any tyre with the "3 peak mountain snowflake" rating which is
considered the benchmark for winter/snow etc use etc.
That's a reasonable guide.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-05 09:47:15 UTC
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Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Indeed they are but I've found them to perform equally as well as
when
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
I used Vredstein(sp) in our UK winters.
How much driving on packed snow rather than slush or wet road
though?
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Our road is rather steep and never gets salted/ploughed 4WD is the only
thing that can get out as if you go down you still have to go up to get
out the other end and we have what must be the steepest hill in the area
that I always drive up when it snows just because it's there. :)
http://youtu.be/f4N82I8X4Gs
Doesn't look overly steep, in the past I've taken the backroad over
Fiddlers a from the Nent to South Tyne valleys. That has a 1:5
section (up) and several other bits of similar gradient. And no black
bits showing at all.

And Costco are right to refuse to fit a pair of new tyres on the
front of a FWD. It's just asking for the older, less grippy, rears to
let go first.
--
Cheers
Dave.
polygonum_on_google
2021-01-05 11:40:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I
came
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise
mode,
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via
the
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
gears) which threw me off in a different direction.
Front, rear or all four wheel skid? Front or rear wheel drive?
Loss of grip at the back end in a front wheel drive you should apply
power not reduce it, to pull the back end back into line and
hopefully stop it trying to overtake the front. Braking is a no no
but that applies to any loss of grip.
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross Climate for
example
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
I was under the impression that a lot of the performance of winter tyres came from the compound used which remains flexible at lower temperatures rather than hardening up.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-05 13:17:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by polygonum_on_google
Post by Dave Liquorice
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
I was under the impression that a lot of the performance of winter tyres
came from the compound used which remains flexible at lower temperatures
rather than hardening up.
IIRC "winter" tyre compounds are high silica and supposed to remain
softer at low temps, below 7 C is often quoted. They are also
supposed to wear quicker in the summer but I can't say I've noticed.
First set of winters I had I'd take off in the summer until the end
of their third maybe fourth winter when they were starting to not
perform quite as well but still had a good few thousand miles left.
Kept them on for the summer no noticeable difference in wear rate...
--
Cheers
Dave.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-05 14:03:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by polygonum_on_google
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I
came
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise
mode,
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via
the
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Post by fred
gears) which threw me off in a different direction.
Front, rear or all four wheel skid? Front or rear wheel drive?
Loss of grip at the back end in a front wheel drive you should apply
power not reduce it, to pull the back end back into line and
hopefully stop it trying to overtake the front. Braking is a no no
but that applies to any loss of grip.
Post by www.GymRatZ.co.uk
Sounds like you need some proper winter tyres Michelin Cross Climate for
example
They are an "all season" tyre, not proper winter tyres. Proper
winters are things like Veredstien Wintrac Xtreme or Goodyear
Ultragrip. Compare the tread patterns, the proper winters have lots
of fine slits (sipes) these are what give grip on snow.
I was under the impression that a lot of the performance of winter tyres came from the compound used which remains flexible at lower temperatures rather than hardening up.
That works on wet roads, but not on snow. There you need a fairly coarse
sipe pattern and that tends to be noisier on a hard tarmac surface

dry weather grip is all about wide slicks - maximum rubber on the road.
Wet weather is all about sipes - clearing water before it aquaplanes.
Snow is all about digging into the snow, Narrower tyres broader sipes
and blocky tread patterns You want areas of high surface pressure and
areas of low to mould the snow into something you can get a grip on.

Needless to say its all compromise.
--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-06 11:20:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by polygonum_on_google
I was under the impression that a lot of the performance of winter
tyres came from the compound used which remains flexible at lower
temperatures rather than hardening up.
That works on wet roads, but not on snow. There you need a fairly coarse
sipe pattern and that tends to be noisier on a hard tarmac surface
You need lots of sipes for snow.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
dry weather grip is all about wide slicks - maximum rubber on the road.
Yep and if you're not bothered about wear a very soft compound. You
ought to see the amount of rubber marbles that collect on the outside
of bends on motor racing circuits.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Wet weather is all about sipes - clearing water before it aquaplanes.
Sipes don't clear water, the wider grooves and channels separating
the blocks do.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Snow is all about digging into the snow, Narrower tyres broader sipes
and blocky tread patterns
Blocky/chunky tread patterns are more for mud than snow. Packed snow
is a pretty firm surface, better to have lots of sipes in the block
faces to grip the snow. I think what happens is the sipes open along
the leading edge of the contact patch, snow gets forced into them,
the sipes then get forced closed in the contact patch, the increased
pressure on the snow turns it to ice "attached" to the packed snow
surface providing the grip.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Needless to say its all compromise.
Too true, deep fresh snow or slush is more akin to mud than packed
snow.
--
Cheers
Dave.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-06 12:04:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by polygonum_on_google
I was under the impression that a lot of the performance of winter
tyres came from the compound used which remains flexible at lower
temperatures rather than hardening up.
That works on wet roads, but not on snow. There you need a fairly coarse
sipe pattern and that tends to be noisier on a hard tarmac surface
You need lots of sipes for snow.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
dry weather grip is all about wide slicks - maximum rubber on the road.
Yep and if you're not bothered about wear a very soft compound. You
ought to see the amount of rubber marbles that collect on the outside
of bends on motor racing circuits.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Wet weather is all about sipes - clearing water before it aquaplanes.
Sipes don't clear water, the wider grooves and channels separating
the blocks do.
No clear definition as to when a sipe gets to be a groove. All of them help
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Snow is all about digging into the snow, Narrower tyres broader sipes
and blocky tread patterns
Blocky/chunky tread patterns are more for mud than snow. Packed snow
is a pretty firm surface, better to have lots of sipes in the block
faces to grip the snow. I think what happens is the sipes open along
the leading edge of the contact patch, snow gets forced into them,
the sipes then get forced closed in the contact patch, the increased
pressure on the snow turns it to ice "attached" to the packed snow
surface providing the grip.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Needless to say its all compromise.
Too true, deep fresh snow or slush is more akin to mud than packed
snow.
Packed snow you need studs or spikes
--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2021-01-04 13:26:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be effective
ha ha
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-04 14:04:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode,
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the
gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only
doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment.
Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that
requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick
enough for that to be effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon as
you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Vir Campestris
2021-01-04 17:34:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon as
you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
+1.

The ABS system should have spotted that and put power back on.

Andy
Fredxx
2021-01-04 19:41:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode,
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the
gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only
doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment.
Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that
requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick
enough for that to be effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon as
you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
Scott
2021-01-04 19:43:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode,
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the
gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only
doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment.
Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that
requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick
enough for that to be effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon as
you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
The way it was described to me was like the regenerative braking on a
train.
Fredxx
2021-01-04 19:51:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would
normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came
off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode,
(i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the
gears) which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only
doing about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment.
Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that
requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick
enough for that to be effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon as
you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
The way it was described to me was like the regenerative braking on a
train.
I was told that very few trains can (re)generate whilst braking.
Track-side systems can't always cope with both generation and rectification.

I would have thought virtually all forms of braking could be
regenerative for an EV, perhaps with the exception of an emergency stop
or under failure conditions
Vir Campestris
2021-01-04 21:26:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
I was told that very few trains can (re)generate whilst braking.
Track-side systems can't always cope with both generation and
rectification.
I would have thought virtually all forms of braking could be
regenerative for an EV, perhaps with the exception of an emergency stop
or under failure conditions
I thought it was common. Much amused though when I went to look to find

https://www.nature.com/articles/129864a0

published 11 June 1932...

But this is more relevant

<https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Treatment-of-regenerative-braking-for-metered-operators-on-the-DC-network.pdf>

AKA https://tinyurl.com/y4fv2xpn

"Modern electric trains are commonly equipped with two types of braking
system; conventional mechanical disc brakes and electric regenerative
braking. The use of regenerative braking reduces the net energy
consumed, and represents a cost saving for the train operators which use
it."

Andy
Fredxx
2021-01-04 23:41:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by Fredxx
I was told that very few trains can (re)generate whilst braking.
Track-side systems can't always cope with both generation and
rectification.
I would have thought virtually all forms of braking could be
regenerative for an EV, perhaps with the exception of an emergency
stop or under failure conditions
I thought it was common. Much amused though when I went to look to find
https://www.nature.com/articles/129864a0
published 11 June 1932...
But this is more relevant
<https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Treatment-of-regenerative-braking-for-metered-operators-on-the-DC-network.pdf>
AKA https://tinyurl.com/y4fv2xpn
"Modern electric trains are commonly equipped with two types of braking
system; conventional mechanical disc brakes and electric regenerative
braking. The use of regenerative braking reduces the net energy
consumed, and represents a cost saving for the train operators which use
it."
Using words 'common' and "Inversion equipment can be costly and may not
represent ‘value for money’" suggests it might not be the norm.

I recall being told a decade or more ago, that on many lines
regenerative braking could only be used if there was another train that
could use the energy. I guess when inverters cost a pretty penny.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-05 11:26:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon
as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto
re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as
slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different
direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok
but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is
possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive
mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be
effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon
as you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
You don't get much engine braking in top gear. Hence my comment about
changing down.
--
*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
charles
2021-01-05 11:47:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon
as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto
re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as
slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different
direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok
but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is
possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive
mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be
effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon
as you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
You don't get much engine braking in top gear. Hence my comment about
changing down.
as a friend found out on changing down to slow down, you do get engine
breaking.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Andrew
2021-01-05 12:27:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon
as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto
re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as
slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different
direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok
but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is
possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive
mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be
effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon
as you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
You don't get much engine braking in top gear. Hence my comment about
changing down.
as a friend found out on changing down to slow down, you do get engine
breaking.
And changing down in an EV car is a bit tricky when most
(all ?) only have one gear.
Andy Burns
2021-01-05 12:53:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
changing down in an EV car is a bit tricky when most
(all ?) only have one gear.
The only ones I've seen which have gears are the classic car conversions
of e.g. E-type, Beetle where they wanted to do the minimal changes (see
Bobby Llewellyn)
NY
2021-01-05 12:36:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
You don't get much engine braking in top gear. Hence my comment about
changing down.
The issue is that an electric car running at a speed that would entail top
gear in a petrol/diesel car should not slow down any more quickly when you
lift off the accelerator that a petrol car would - until you press the brake
pedal when a suitable combination of frictional and regenerative braking
should be used. A car which "braked" any more fiercely than this would
require a very different style of driving because you'd have to keep your
foot partially on the accelerator as you approached a junction so it slowed
down more gently than if the regen brakes kicked in as soon as you lift off
the power. And as the OP said, it is positively dangerous if the wheels get
braked if you lift off because of a skid.

I'm trying to remember the last time any of my FWD cars experienced a
rear-wheel skid. FWD skids are more common (though still very rare!) if you
enter a bend, steer to follow it and the wheel (at and angle) continue to
skid straight. I've had that happen very occasionally at very slow speed on
an icy road, and the remedy is to come off the power and wait for the wheels
to start biting again so the car once again follows the course you've
steered.

No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Tim+
2021-01-05 13:02:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Change that to “no car should unintentionally...” and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions “one-pedal” driving in an EV in town can be
a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking available on
the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals. So, there are
times when it’s a useful feature.

As far as I’m aware, it’s always a driver selectable option.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-05 14:05:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Change that to “no car should unintentionally...” and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions “one-pedal” driving in an EV in town can be
a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking available on
the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals. So, there are
times when it’s a useful feature.
As far as I’m aware, it’s always a driver selectable option.
Tim
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."
Andy Burns
2021-01-05 15:36:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic? I don't.
charles
2021-01-05 15:44:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic? I don't.
I don't, but then I've drive manual box cars for 50+ years befoer getting
an auto.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-05 16:09:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Andy Burns
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic? I don't.
I don't, but then I've drive manual box cars for 50+ years befoer getting
an auto.
I learned to left foot brake on my first auto getting on for 50 years ago.
It had rather peculiar brakes - a mechanical servo. At very low speeds no
servo action which then came in when the car moved. But also had direct
mechanical connection to the rear brakes from the foot pedal - same as the
handbrake. But the handbrake was in an awkward place for manouvering. So
much easier to use the left foot on the pedal which did much the same as
the handbrake.

Never had a problem swapping back to a manual. Although could be different
if I started left foot braking at my present age.
--
*Ham and Eggs: Just a day's work for a chicken, but a lifetime commitment

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-05 16:36:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards? Do a hill start? Do a rapid take off?
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?

I treat it like a clutch when taking off and a brake when slowing down.

Its just another thing to learn.
--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.
Tim+
2021-01-05 18:13:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards?
Take my foot off the brake.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Do a hill start?
Auto handbrake
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Do a rapid take off?
Stomp the accelerator.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
Kickdown? How quaint. ;-)

Yeah, I’ll admit that left foot braking is probably a useful skill in some
autos but It’s lovely not needing all that mechanical nonsense anymore.
Still, each to his own.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Andy Burns
2021-01-05 18:48:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards?
Take my foot off the brake.
if stopped, the auto hold will keep the brakes on without brake pedal,
the slightest feather of the accelerator or steering-wheel will cancel
that, and then it'll gently creep forwards.
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Do a hill start?
Auto handbrake
auto hold as above
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Do a rapid take off?
Stomp the accelerator.
likewise, though you do need left foot on brake to use launch control, I
used it a few times on previous car, have resisted in this car so far.
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
tap gear knob to put transmission into "S" mode, will make it go down at
least one gear.
Post by Tim+
Kickdown? How quaint. ;-)
Yeah, I’ll admit that left foot braking is probably a useful skill in some
autos
Although I doubt I'll ever buy another manual, I sometimes drive other
cars or rentals, so don't want to train my left foot into being a
"braking foot"
NY
2021-01-05 18:24:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andy Burns
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic? I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards? Do a hill start? Do a rapid take off?
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
I treat it like a clutch when taking off and a brake when slowing down.
Its just another thing to learn.
Exactly. And it shouldn't be. I've often thought that automatics should have
a clutch pedal that is only used when setting off from rest, to give greater
control than by controlling engine power alone.

Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual. Or
has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque converters and
manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is there for people who
can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch, accelerator and
handbrake.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-05 18:31:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards? Do a hill start? Do a rapid take off?
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
I treat it like a clutch when taking off and a brake when slowing down.
Its just another thing to learn.
Exactly. And it shouldn't be. I've often thought that automatics should
have a clutch pedal that is only used when setting off from rest, to
give greater control than by controlling engine power alone.
Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual.
Or has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque
converters and manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is
there for people who can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch,
accelerator and handbrake.
My current auto has a button for handbrake. On or off. Nothing between
--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius
Tim+
2021-01-05 18:42:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by NY
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards? Do a hill start? Do a rapid take off?
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
I treat it like a clutch when taking off and a brake when slowing down.
Its just another thing to learn.
Exactly. And it shouldn't be. I've often thought that automatics should
have a clutch pedal that is only used when setting off from rest, to
give greater control than by controlling engine power alone.
Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual.
Or has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque
converters and manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is
there for people who can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch,
accelerator and handbrake.
My current auto has a button for handbrake. On or off. Nothing between
Doesn’t it auto-release for hill starts?

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-05 18:56:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by NY
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards? Do a hill start? Do a rapid take off?
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
I treat it like a clutch when taking off and a brake when slowing down.
Its just another thing to learn.
Exactly. And it shouldn't be. I've often thought that automatics should
have a clutch pedal that is only used when setting off from rest, to
give greater control than by controlling engine power alone.
Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual.
Or has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque
converters and manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is
there for people who can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch,
accelerator and handbrake.
My current auto has a button for handbrake. On or off. Nothing between
Doesn’t it auto-release for hill starts?
How would it know
Post by Tim+
Tim
--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy
Tim+
2021-01-05 19:09:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by NY
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards? Do a hill start? Do a rapid take off?
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
I treat it like a clutch when taking off and a brake when slowing down.
Its just another thing to learn.
Exactly. And it shouldn't be. I've often thought that automatics should
have a clutch pedal that is only used when setting off from rest, to
give greater control than by controlling engine power alone.
Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual.
Or has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque
converters and manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is
there for people who can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch,
accelerator and handbrake.
My current auto has a button for handbrake. On or off. Nothing between
Doesn’t it auto-release for hill starts?
How would it know
Computers. ;-). Probably some sort of torque sensing in the drivetrain but
I’m guessing.

Every car with an electric handbrake that I’ve driven in the last 10 years
has known. Mind you, these all had an “auto-hold” feature. I guess your
car predates this technology.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Vir Campestris
2021-01-05 21:27:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
Every car with an electric handbrake that I’ve driven in the last 10 years
has known. Mind you, these all had an “auto-hold” feature. I guess your
car predates this technology.
I stopped on a hill in Tenerife in a rental with an electric handbrake.
The car rolled a bit, and it wound the brake on hard. So far so good.

The lights went green, and I started. Except the brake was on so hard I
stalled the engine, and dipped the clutch.

_Then_ it released the handbrake...

Andy
NY
2021-01-05 22:16:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by Tim+
Every car with an electric handbrake that I’ve driven in the last 10 years
has known. Mind you, these all had an “auto-hold” feature. I guess your
car predates this technology.
I stopped on a hill in Tenerife in a rental with an electric handbrake.
The car rolled a bit, and it wound the brake on hard. So far so good.
The lights went green, and I started. Except the brake was on so hard I
stalled the engine, and dipped the clutch.
_Then_ it released the handbrake...
I would never trust an electric handbrake or a hill-start assist manual
handbrake. I like a brake that I can apply and release instantaneously at
the same point as I apply enough power and let the clutch start to bite.
Hill starts are one of those three-limbed control issues which is hard to
describe to a learner, but once learned it's instinctive. I learned on my
mum's Renault 6 which had the handbrake as an umbrella handle under the
dashboard, and in warm weather then cable stretched a bit and the lever
reached the upper limit of its end-stop before the cable was tight enough.
On most gradients it was not a problem, but there was one steep uphill at
traffic lights where it may not be strong enough to hold the car so I became
adept at holding the car with enough engine and with the clutch rubbing just
enough to counteract the car's tendency to roll backwards. But I suggested
that she got the garage to tighten the cable a bit so the handbrake actually
worked in all weathers and on all gradients. I still leave the car in gear
(first if facing uphill, reverse if facing downhill) in case the handbrake
creeps. The direction is important: you don't want the starter motor to
propel the car *down* the hill if you forget to press the clutch when you
start the engine; uphill is harder so there's less chance of hitting the car
in front or behind. Mind you, I got into the habit of always waggling the
gear lever before starting the engine or before letting the clutch up after
stopping, to prove to myself that it's in neutral.



Your story about stalling at lights reminds me of a very embarrassing
experience I once had. I was lead car, stopped at lights on an uphill
gradient. Handbrake on. Into neutral. Lights went red+amber so I put the car
in gear and started to let the clutch up. Suddenly the car lurched forwards
and stalled - in gear. The clutch actuator mechanism had failed, letting the
clutch in very quickly. And the weight of the car, acting through the wheels
and gearbox, prevented me putting the car into neutral - the lever wouldn't
shift. Several guys got out and tried to push my car uphill enough to
release the tension on the selector mechanism, but the gradient was too
steep. And at a quick test, the starter motor wasn't strong enough to propel
the car clear of the lights.

No-one could get past. I felt very unpopular. Luckily, after working the
pedal up and down, eventually the mechanism engaged with the clutch and
released it. Finally I could put the car in neutral and roll back to the
side of the road - once the cars behind had reversed a bit. There was a long
queue of cars behind me by then :-(
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-06 09:19:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by NY
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Do you left-foot break in an automatic?  I don't.
oh yes.
Always.
How else can you inch forwards? Do a hill start? Do a rapid take off?
force the thing to kickdown mid corner slowing down?
I treat it like a clutch when taking off and a brake when slowing down.
Its just another thing to learn.
Exactly. And it shouldn't be. I've often thought that automatics should
have a clutch pedal that is only used when setting off from rest, to
give greater control than by controlling engine power alone.
Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual.
Or has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque
converters and manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is
there for people who can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch,
accelerator and handbrake.
My current auto has a button for handbrake. On or off. Nothing between
Doesn’t it auto-release for hill starts?
How would it know
Computers. ;-). Probably some sort of torque sensing in the drivetrain but
I’m guessing.
Every car with an electric handbrake that I’ve driven in the last 10 years
has known. Mind you, these all had an “auto-hold” feature. I guess your
car predates this technology.
I actually bothered to read the manual. It just disengages on throttle
position sensor when in 'Drive' or 'Reverse'. So no control at all.

Garage warned me that they often stick on ruining the disks...
Post by Tim+
Tim
--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-06 15:36:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I actually bothered to read the manual. It just disengages on throttle
position sensor when in 'Drive' or 'Reverse'. So no control at all.
There are good hill hold systems and bad ones, sometimes on the same model.
A friend had an old manual Audi A6 on which the hill hold/auto hand brake
worked perfectly.
When the car got long in the tooth he bought a new A6. The handbrake
released the moment you started to lift pressure off the clutch pedal but
well before the clutch bite point causing it to roll backwards on hills.
After much arguing with the dealers he got an AA engineers report and
successfully rejected the car.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Garage warned me that they often stick on ruining the disks...
But garages are well known for talking bollocks.
So very true. I often wonder if they have a book of lies to quote. Rather
like BoJo. ;-)

Not that long ago, got a local garage to fit a new handbrake cable to the
old Rover. To fit it myself meant getting the whole car raised in the
street - a real PITA. Far easier on a ramp.

I'd replaced both brake cylinders (one was leaking) and new shoes. Drums
were unworn. Everything stripped and cleaned. Made sure the auto adjusters
were working and the internal handbrake levers working correctly - they
have pivots that can seize.

They gave me some guff about having to remove the drums and slacken the
adjusters to get the cable to fit. When I looked later, no surprise.
They'd adjusted up one side of the cable to maximum - not understanding
how it functions. Luckily the adjustment at the actual lever itself was
OK, so merely slackening off the adjustment at the drum and setting it
correctly after making sure the shoes had self adjusted properly got it
correct. Incidentally, my last BMW had a cover beside the handbrake which
you removed to adjust it. Without having to get underneath the car. Nice
touch.

Lot to be said for autos on hill starts. All you need is a one way clutch
(sprag) which is only operational in drive. Prevents the car running
backwards easily.
--
*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-06 17:31:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I actually bothered to read the manual. It just disengages on throttle
position sensor when in 'Drive' or 'Reverse'. So no control at all.
There are good hill hold systems and bad ones, sometimes on the same model.
A friend had an old manual Audi A6 on which the hill hold/auto hand brake
worked perfectly.
When the car got long in the tooth he bought a new A6. The handbrake
released the moment you started to lift pressure off the clutch pedal but
well before the clutch bite point causing it to roll backwards on hills.
After much arguing with the dealers he got an AA engineers report and
successfully rejected the car.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Garage warned me that they often stick on ruining the disks...
But garages are well known for talking bollocks.
well this is a son of a friend who spent a long time in car insurance
and now is workshop manager.
Tim
--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain
Andrew
2021-01-06 19:20:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I actually bothered to read the manual. It just disengages on throttle
position sensor when in 'Drive' or 'Reverse'. So no control at all.
There are good hill hold systems and bad ones, sometimes on the same model.
A friend had an old manual Audi A6 on which the hill hold/auto hand brake
worked perfectly.
When the car got long in the tooth he bought a new A6.  The handbrake
released the moment you started to lift pressure off the clutch pedal but
well before the clutch bite point causing it to roll backwards on hills.
After much arguing with the dealers he got an AA engineers report and
successfully rejected the car.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Garage warned me that they often stick on ruining the disks...
But garages are well known for talking bollocks.
well this is a son of a friend who spent a long time in car insurance
and now is workshop manager.
Idiots are frequently promoted out of harms way
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-06 00:21:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
My current auto has a button for handbrake. On or off. Nothing between
Doesnâ t it auto-release for hill starts?
How would it know
Possibly the same way it knows to release the parking brake when you
want to set off with it engaged. ie in gear, clutch pressed and touch
the acelerator.

Mines got "hill start assist", which works well enough but I haven't
worked out what conditions need to be satisfied for it trigger hill
start assist and hold the car whilst you move your foot from brake to
go. Never quite sure if it's going to roll back or not so tend to
give it enough go to "catch" any roll back...
--
Cheers
Dave.
Andy Burns
2021-01-06 08:36:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
Mines got "hill start assist", which works well enough but I haven't
worked out what conditions need to be satisfied for it trigger hill
start assist and hold the car whilst you move your foot from brake to
go. Never quite sure if it's going to roll back or not so tend to
give it enough go to "catch" any roll back...
No mystery with mine, if you're stopped the hold assist *is* on and the
"handbrake light" is green to say that it is using the ABS brake servo
to apply all 4 pads, if for any reason (the ABS overheats, the car
stalls etc) then it applies the electric parking brake to the rear
wheels and the LED turns red like a normal handbrake light. In either
case touch the accelerator and it's released and sets off.

There's a button to disable this, but I never use it.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-06 09:21:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Liquorice
Mines got "hill start assist", which works well enough but I
haven't
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Liquorice
worked out what conditions need to be satisfied for it trigger hill
start assist and hold the car whilst you move your foot from brake to
go. Never quite sure if it's going to roll back or not so tend to
give it enough go to "catch" any roll back...
No mystery with mine, if you're stopped the hold assist *is* on and the
"handbrake light" is green to say that it is using the ABS brake servo
to apply all 4 pads, if for any reason (the ABS overheats, the car
stalls etc) then it applies the electric parking brake to the rear
wheels and the LED turns red like a normal handbrake light. In either
case touch the accelerator and it's released and sets off.
Wish my mine had that. I think the trigger for hill start assist is
tied in with fully releasing the clutch in neutral and the car being
slightly down at the back, FSVO "slightly".
--
Cheers
Dave.
www.GymRatZ.co.uk
2021-01-06 13:09:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Liquorice
Mines got "hill start assist", which works well enough but I
haven't
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Liquorice
worked out what conditions need to be satisfied for it trigger
hill
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Liquorice
start assist and hold the car whilst you move your foot from brake
to
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Liquorice
go. Never quite sure if it's going to roll back or not so tend to
give it enough go to "catch" any roll back...
No mystery with mine, if you're stopped the hold assist *is* on and the
"handbrake light" is green to say that it is using the ABS brake servo
to apply all 4 pads, if for any reason (the ABS overheats, the car
stalls etc) then it applies the electric parking brake to the rear
wheels and the LED turns red like a normal handbrake light. In either
case touch the accelerator and it's released and sets off.
Wish my mine had that. I think the trigger for hill start assist is
tied in with fully releasing the clutch in neutral and the car being
slightly down at the back, FSVO "slightly".
My VW Transporter Hill Start Assist only comes into play when the
vehicle is past a certain angle incline/decline. It won't activate on
the fairly shallow motorway "off ramp" with traffic lights but then it
doesn't need to as the transition from brake to accelerator wouldn't
warrant the use of the handbrake either.
Might be linked to the "anti-tow" alarm sensor which I believe is known
to cause problems with channel ferry crossings setting off the alarm if
not deactivated.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-06 00:10:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by NY
Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual.
Or has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque
converters and manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is
there for people who can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch,
accelerator and handbrake.
My current auto has a button for handbrake. On or off. Nothing between
Mine has a little lever switch, with a slight lag as the motors wind
the brakes on or off. There is no abilty to balance clutch,
accelerator and hand brake. On is also very ON, if you're moving even
very slightly putting on the "hand brake" is like hitting a tree.

The handbook has dire warnings about applying the "hand brake" when
moving above a few mph. IIRC it will apply the brake at a slightly
reducesd rate but it'll still be pretty fierce and/or risk breaking
things and/or losing control.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-06 00:49:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Hill starts - surely you use the handbrake like you would in a manual.
Or has that gone out of fashion with automatics that have torque
converters and manuals that have hill-start assist which I presume is
there for people who can't master the normal coordinated use of clutch,
accelerator and handbrake.
Many autos prevent the car running backwards on a hill.
--
*See no evil, Hear no evil, Date no evil.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim+
2021-01-05 18:13:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim+
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Change that to “no car should unintentionally...” and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions “one-pedal” driving in an EV in town can be
a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking available on
the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals. So, there are
times when it’s a useful feature.
As far as I’m aware, it’s always a driver selectable option.
Tim
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Not when I also drive a conventional manual occasionally. My brain can’t
cope with transition. Additionally, I also have the option of braking by
hand using a paddle control to maximise regen.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-05 18:29:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim+
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Change that to “no car should unintentionally...” and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions “one-pedal” driving in an EV in town can be
a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking available on
the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals. So, there are
times when it’s a useful feature.
As far as I’m aware, it’s always a driver selectable option.
Tim
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
Not when I also drive a conventional manual occasionally. My brain can’t
cope with transition. Additionally, I also have the option of braking by
hand using a paddle control to maximise regen.
well I have no problem switching after the first 2 minutes
Same as coming off the ferry in France
Post by Tim+
Tim
--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.
NY
2021-01-05 18:16:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim+
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Change that to “no car should unintentionally...” and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions “one-pedal” driving in an EV in town can be
a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking available on
the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals. So, there are
times when it’s a useful feature.
As far as I’m aware, it’s always a driver selectable option.
Tim
But you have no clutch so left foot braking is surely the norm?
I know that automatics are given a wider footbrake to allow for either foot
to be used, but if I was going to switch between a manual and automatic I
would not want to rely on my left leg, which has built up muscle memory for
a large movement of the clutch, for the much more delicate task of
controlling the footbrake. When I drove a go-kart for an afternoon's
karting, I kept spinning the kart because my left leg was not used to
delicate movements.

I *always* use my right foot for braking in an automatic, exactly as I would
in a manual.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-05 14:00:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light
engine/motor braking if you simply lift off the power; it should
require positive action like pressing the brake pedal before changing
down or regenerative braking happen.
Change that to ”no car should unintentionally...• and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions ”one-pedal• driving in an EV in town can
be a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking
available on the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals.
So, there are times when it‘s a useful feature.
As far as I‘m aware, it‘s always a driver selectable option.
I'm sure when you're struggling for range, regeneration is preferable to
braking. But then the same applies to any vehicle. If you brake when not
actually needed you'll use more fuel.

However regenerative braking is still more inefficient than 'coasting' to
a stop.
--
*Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim+
2021-01-05 18:13:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light
engine/motor braking if you simply lift off the power; it should
require positive action like pressing the brake pedal before changing
down or regenerative braking happen.
Change that to ”no car should unintentionally...• and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions ”one-pedal• driving in an EV in town can
be a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking
available on the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals.
So, there are times when it‘s a useful feature.
As far as I‘m aware, it‘s always a driver selectable option.
I'm sure when you're struggling for range, regeneration is preferable to
braking.
You misunderstand. All EVs use regeneration when using the brake pedal
until you require more braking than regen can provide on its own, at which
point the brake pads are called into action. You can’t normally turn this
off. Consequently you do get regenerative gains in normal driving.

The only controllable regeneration is that which occurs on the over-run.
Some EV owners incorrectly seem convinced they need to keep this setting on
max for maximum economy. In hilly country where you’re coming on and off
the throttle frequently high regen settings can make driving easier as
you’re less likely to need to shuffle you foot twixt throttle and brake.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But then the same applies to any vehicle. If you brake when not
actually needed you'll use more fuel.
However regenerative braking is still more inefficient than 'coasting' to
a stop.
Indeed. Anticipation and smooth driving are key.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
n***@aolbin.com
2021-01-05 20:01:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light
engine/motor braking if you simply lift off the power; it should
require positive action like pressing the brake pedal before changing
down or regenerative braking happen.
Change that to ”no car should unintentionally...• and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions ”one-pedal• driving in an EV in town can
be a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking
available on the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals.
So, there are times when it‘s a useful feature.
As far as I‘m aware, it‘s always a driver selectable option.
I'm sure when you're struggling for range, regeneration is preferable to
braking. But then the same applies to any vehicle. If you brake when not
actually needed you'll use more fuel.
However regenerative braking is still more inefficient than 'coasting' to
a stop.
You may have some frustrated people behind you if you coasted to a halt!
NY
2021-01-05 18:09:11 UTC
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Post by Tim+
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Change that to “no car should unintentionally...” and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions “one-pedal” driving in an EV in town can be
a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking available on
the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals. So, there are
times when it’s a useful feature.
As far as I’m aware, it’s always a driver selectable option.
It should certainly be driver-selectable if it is present. I wouldn't want
it to happen unless I was expecting it to happen. It's not how petrol/diesel
cars behave and I would not *expect* an electric car to behave any
differently because I would want to drive it the same: right foot for
accelerator and brake, left foot for clutch in a manual (petrol/diesel),
otherwise not used. Lifting off the power to brake is a very different
behaviour and one which requires a very different driving style.
F
2021-01-07 14:51:39 UTC
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Post by Tim+
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
Change that to “no car should unintentionally...” and I might agree. In
normal non-slippery conditions “one-pedal” driving in an EV in town can be
a useful facility with highish levels of regenerative braking available on
the overrun. Saves a lot of foot dancing between pedals. So, there are
times when it’s a useful feature.
+1
Post by Tim+
As far as I’m aware, it’s always a driver selectable option.
On ours, it is.
--
Frank
polygonum_on_google
2021-01-05 13:50:19 UTC
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Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
I think you are overstating there with "No car".

My car has adaptive cruise control. It can go into a coasting mode. It can apply braking. Very obvious if you set it to something like 50 on an up and down road. So simply lifting your foot off the power can brake quite hard if you are going faster than the ACC is set and downhill. Almost unnoticeable if fairly level and ACC speed is what you are doing.
Tim Lamb
2021-01-05 14:06:42 UTC
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Post by polygonum_on_google
Post by NY
No car should change down or apply anything more than light engine/motor
braking if you simply lift off the power; it should require positive action
like pressing the brake pedal before changing down or regenerative braking
happen.
I think you are overstating there with "No car".
My car has adaptive cruise control. It can go into a coasting mode. It
can apply braking. Very obvious if you set it to something like 50 on
an up and down road. So simply lifting your foot off the power can
brake quite hard if you are going faster than the ACC is set and
downhill. Almost unnoticeable if fairly level and ACC speed is what you
are doing.
Following what I assume to be automatics down relatively shallow slopes,
it is common to see the brake lights coming on a intervals.

I vaguely assumed 4th on my 5 ratio manual box was providing more engine
braking than that available on an automatic.
--
Tim Lamb
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-05 15:50:26 UTC
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Post by Tim Lamb
Following what I assume to be automatics down relatively shallow slopes,
it is common to see the brake lights coming on a intervals.
Why would that be any different to a manual?
Post by Tim Lamb
I vaguely assumed 4th on my 5 ratio manual box was providing more engine
braking than that available on an automatic.
If the car is gaining speed downhill with zero throttle, many autos will
drop a gear or two on a touch of the brakes.
--
*You sound reasonable......time to up my medication

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim Lamb
2021-01-05 18:10:40 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Lamb
Following what I assume to be automatics down relatively shallow slopes,
it is common to see the brake lights coming on a intervals.
Why would that be any different to a manual?
I didn't know auto boxes would drop a gear. I did my *nose on the
windscreen learning* in America as the hire place did not have anything
with a manual shift. 1985 and not driven one since.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Lamb
I vaguely assumed 4th on my 5 ratio manual box was providing more engine
braking than that available on an automatic.
If the car is gaining speed downhill with zero throttle, many autos will
drop a gear or two on a touch of the brakes.
--
Tim Lamb
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-06 00:46:57 UTC
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Post by Tim Lamb
I didn't know auto boxes would drop a gear. I did my *nose on the
windscreen learning* in America as the hire place did not have anything
with a manual shift. 1985 and not driven one since.
In 1985 pretty well autos were three speed and controlled only by
hydraulics.

Very different now.
--
*Venison for dinner again? Oh deer!*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
bert
2021-01-05 22:56:13 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Lamb
Following what I assume to be automatics down relatively shallow slopes,
it is common to see the brake lights coming on a intervals.
Why would that be any different to a manual?
Post by Tim Lamb
I vaguely assumed 4th on my 5 ratio manual box was providing more engine
braking than that available on an automatic.
If the car is gaining speed downhill with zero throttle, many autos will
drop a gear or two on a touch of the brakes.
None of mine ever have done that.
--
bert
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-06 00:52:23 UTC
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Post by bert
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Lamb
Following what I assume to be automatics down relatively shallow
slopes, it is common to see the brake lights coming on a intervals.
Why would that be any different to a manual?
Post by Tim Lamb
I vaguely assumed 4th on my 5 ratio manual box was providing more
engine braking than that available on an automatic.
If the car is gaining speed downhill with zero throttle, many autos
will drop a gear or two on a touch of the brakes.
None of mine ever have done that.
You need to get a better one, then. The ZF 5HP in my 90s BMW did. As have
all since.
--
*No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver,purple

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-05 13:09:23 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon
as you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
You don't get much engine braking in top gear. Hence my comment about
changing down.
There is naff all engine braking in my car until you get down to 4th,
5 and 6 are over drives.

I think a lot is down to anticipation of what your expect to happen
as you lift of the accelerator. Like the strange sensation of
acceleration the first few times you take your foot off when you've
engaged cruise control. You expect to slow down but you remain at the
cruise speed which is perceived as accelerating. You soon get used to
it though, just as you get used to the varying amounts of engine
braking in each different gear.
--
Cheers
Dave.
F
2021-01-07 14:49:17 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the
electric car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I
would normally do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon
as I came off the accelerator the bloody car went into auto
re-energise mode, (i.e.) equivalent of braking ( not the same as
slowing down via the gears) which threw me off in a different
direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph so all came out ok
but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware of. It is
possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the drive
mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be
effective
Sounds like an auto which changes down to give engine braking as soon
as you come off the throttle. I'd call that a fault.
I suspect it's a design feature, where speed can be controlled by the
accelerator and provide some intentional braking akin to petrol engine
braking.
You don't get much engine braking in top gear. Hence my comment about
changing down.
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
--
Frank
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-07 15:10:51 UTC
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Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
--
*They told me I had type-A blood, but it was a Type-O.*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim+
2021-01-07 17:09:38 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
It’s not always practical to coast to a stop in normal driving. I take it
you *do* occasionally use your brake pedal?

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-07 17:54:03 UTC
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Post by Tim+
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
It’s not always practical to coast to a stop in normal driving. I take it
you *do* occasionally use your brake pedal?
Tim
The whole point about regen braking is that you don't need to coast to
save fuel

Until you actually have to use the pads the thing should recover at
least some of the energy it took to get up to speed
--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".
fred
2021-01-08 10:23:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tim+
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
It’s not always practical to coast to a stop in normal driving. I take it
you *do* occasionally use your brake pedal?
Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
On the contrary I very quickly learned to anticipate a dead stop and back off the pedal in time. Its surprising how rarely I use the brake pedal. Coasting to a stop is a different kettle of fish. A game I used to play with the kids years ago. If you ever wondered how far you car would travel on sheet ice try guessing how far it will go while coasting to a stop. You may be surprised
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-08 11:00:54 UTC
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In article
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
It‘s not always practical to coast to a stop in normal driving. I take it
you *do* occasionally use your brake pedal?
I certainly don't want the brakes to come on as soon as I come off the
throttle. Which some say happens (effectively) on an electric car with
regeneration.
--
*My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. She stops to breathe.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim+
2021-01-08 13:50:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
It‘s not always practical to coast to a stop in normal driving. I take it
you *do* occasionally use your brake pedal?
I certainly don't want the brakes to come on as soon as I come off the
throttle. Which some say
So you’re relying on the ignorance of non-EV owners here?
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
happens (effectively) on an electric car with
regeneration.
<yawn>. It’s a driver selectable option.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
F
2021-01-08 14:56:22 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
If you want it to coast with your foot off then you don't use regen mode.

In 'coast' mode, with your foot off the accelerator you do just that:
coast. Put your foot on the brake and it uses regen to slow. If regen
isn't enough it will add in friction.
--
Frank
The Natural Philosopher
2021-01-08 15:06:24 UTC
Reply
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Post by F
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting', doesn't it
actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100% efficient.
If you want it to coast with your foot off then you don't use regen mode.
coast. Put your foot on the brake and it uses regen to slow. If regen
isn't enough it will add in friction.
That's how I would design it from the get-go. Foot off = brakes on is
too different from normal car behaviour.
--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-08 15:26:21 UTC
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Post by F
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting',
doesn't it actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100%
efficient.
If you want it to coast with your foot off then you don't use regen mode.
coast. Put your foot on the brake and it uses regen to slow. If regen
isn't enough it will add in friction.
What I'd expect. So explain to Fred why his car skidded.
--
*Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance. *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
F
2021-01-08 15:42:06 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by F
Ours has just the one gear so there's nothing to change down to. In
regen mode it simply switches the motor into a 'dynamo' and gently
brakes the car.
Given that stops the car in a shorter distance than 'coasting',
doesn't it actually waste power? No form of power generation is 100%
efficient.
If you want it to coast with your foot off then you don't use regen mode.
coast. Put your foot on the brake and it uses regen to slow. If regen
isn't enough it will add in friction.
What I'd expect. So explain to Fred why his car skidded.
No idea: I'm not responsible for Fred or his car.
--
Frank
Tim+
2021-01-04 21:33:49 UTC
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Post by fred
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the electric
car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would normally
do, to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came off the
accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode, (i.e.)
equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the gears)
which threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only doing
about 30mph so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment.
Something to be aware of. It is possible to engage neutral but that
requires dis-engaging the drive mode and my reactions would not be quick
enough for that to be effective
Turn your regen down or off before driving in seriously slippery
conditions.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
2021-01-05 20:33:54 UTC
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Surely, one would think that it should act the same as the normal vehicle at
least for the first few seconds. Sounds like a software fault.
Brian
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"fred" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:30d7e105-9e43-4bc0-9899-***@googlegroups.com...
I skidded on a small patch of black ice yesterday morning in the electric
car so I immediately got off the accelerator pedal, as I would normally do,
to allow me recover control. Trouble was as soon as I came off the
accelerator the bloody car went into auto re-energise mode, (i.e.)
equivalent of braking ( not the same as slowing down via the gears) which
threw me off in a different direction. Luckily I was only doing about 30mph
so all came out ok but it was a brown trouser moment. Something to be aware
of. It is possible to engage neutral but that requires dis-engaging the
drive mode and my reactions would not be quick enough for that to be
effective
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