Discussion:
Mains powered circular saw for a left-hander
(too old to reply)
jkn
2018-06-20 11:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.

Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).

This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.

Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs that are
better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?

FWIW I was thinking of the Evolution Rage saw, which I have seen get good press
here.

Thanks
J^n
NY
2018-06-20 11:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
Ah, like Jeremy Beadle had.
Post by jkn
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.
I'd not thought of a circular saw or other power tools as being "handed",
but I can see the problem. I wonder whether holding a circular saw and
guiding it along a marked line is something that *normally* can be done with
the "wrong" hand. The fact that your "wrong" hand is weakened tips the
balance even more strongly in favour of you having to use your left hand.

I wonder whethe Poland Syndrome and handedness go [sorry for this
unintentional pun] hand-in-hand: is the fact that your left side is your
dominant side a consequence of your right hand not developing?

It's a shame that the saw is isn't designed so the handle and guide can be
fitted on the opposite side. Given that left-handed people are a sizeable
minority, I wonder if any tool manufacturers sell replacement handles and
guides that are the opposite way round.


Handedness is an interesting thing. I had lunch with a woman who ate with
her fork in her right hand and her knife in the left. I was puzzled because
I'd earlier seen her writing with her right hand. I asked her and she looked
bewildered: she was evidently so used to eating with her fork in her right
hand for any food that didn't require a knife that she hadn't learned to eat
with fork in left and knife in right, and instinctively used her knife (on
the rarer occasions) in the opposite hand to the one she habitually used her
fork in.

My mum is left handed but was taught to use her fork in the left hand as a
right-hander would do because it would not stand out as much: at 82, she's
old enough to have had left-handedness stigmatised at school, though not to
the extent that she holds a pen in her left hand but still sloping to the
right as a right-hander would do; I've seen a lot of people contorting their
left hand so as to get the pen to slope to the right, usually involving
putting the hand *above* the line of writing rather than to the left of it.
Instead, Mum holds her pen in an exact mirror image of the way I would.
Harry Bloomfield
2018-06-20 12:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Handedness is an interesting thing. I had lunch with a woman who ate with her
fork in her right hand and her knife in the left. I was puzzled because I'd
earlier seen her writing with her right hand. I asked her and she looked
bewildered: she was evidently so used to eating with her fork in her right
hand for any food that didn't require a knife that she hadn't learned to eat
with fork in left and knife in right, and instinctively used her knife (on
the rarer occasions) in the opposite hand to the one she habitually used her
fork in.
Interesting, very!

I was born a sinister, forced at school to use my right hand to write
with by tying my left behind my back. At 71 it now feels very odd to
try to even try write with my left, but most other things I can happily
do with either hand. I am left permanently confused by left and right,
because I don't have a natural main hand. I have to think for a while
before laying out knives and forks at the table. I use most tools with
which ever hand suits the easiest access, or in repetitive jobs often
just change hands to rest one or the other. Picking up a handed item
like a circular saw, I would need to test it with both hands, to see
which hand worked best. I get confused when shaking hands with someone
as to which hand to offer and my hand writing has always been terrible.
I can though, beat most people with hunt and peck on the keyboard.
Dan S. MacAbre
2018-06-20 12:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Post by NY
Handedness is an interesting thing. I had lunch with a woman who ate
with her fork in her right hand and her knife in the left. I was
puzzled because I'd earlier seen her writing with her right hand. I
asked her and she looked bewildered: she was evidently so used to
eating with her fork in her right hand for any food that didn't
require a knife that she hadn't learned to eat with fork in left and
knife in right, and instinctively used her knife (on the rarer
occasions) in the opposite hand to the one she habitually used her
fork in.
Interesting, very!
I was born a sinister, forced at school to use my right hand to write
with by tying my left behind my back. At 71 it now feels very odd to try
to even try write with my left, but most other things I can happily do
with either hand. I am left permanently confused by left and right,
because I don't have a natural main hand. I have to think for a while
before laying out knives and forks at the table. I use most tools with
which ever hand suits the easiest access, or in repetitive jobs often
just change hands to rest one or the other. Picking up a handed item
like a circular saw, I would need to test it with both hands, to see
which hand worked best. I get confused when shaking hands with someone
as to which hand to offer and my hand writing has always been terrible.
I can though, beat most people with hunt and peck on the keyboard.
Our lad is left-handed. No stigma nowadays, of course, but it has taken
a long time to get him to stop getting ink all over his hand as it moves
across what he's just written :-)
NY
2018-06-20 13:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Our lad is left-handed. No stigma nowadays, of course, but it has taken a
long time to get him to stop getting ink all over his hand as it moves
across what he's just written :-)
That was more of a problem when people wrote with slow-drying fountain-pen
ink. Nowadays with quick-drying Biro ink, it's *less* of a problem, most of
the time. I can understand why in fountain pen days, left-handers used to
put their hand above the line of writing so the left side of the hand and
the little finger, which take the weight of the hand as you write, didn't
smear the ink.

I went to school with one girl who was left-handed and gripped the pen
between the first and last joints of her forefinger and middle finger
Loading Image..., without using her
thumb, rather than between thumb and middle finger with forefinger on top
Loading Image..., as most people do.
That looked a *lot* more weird than the fact she was writing with her left
hand. Mind you, she took all the weight of her hand on the end of her little
finger, which allowed her to keep the base of her hand clear of the paper to
avoid it smearing the ink.

I've also seen someone holding their pen with only the thumb and forefinger
touching it and the middle finger tucked back
Loading Image... which looks equally
uncomfortable.

But each to their own - whatever people find easiest.
Bob Eager
2018-06-20 13:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
But each to their own - whatever people find easiest.
We must be a very odd family...we are all right handed but...

SWMBO always uses fork in right hand, knife in left. So does one of our
sons.

SWMBO and I are both rodentially ambidextrous. We both have the mouse
buttons mirror imaged.

I hold a pen between thumb and forefinger, with all finger joints bent. I
get lots of comments but that's how I've always done it.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Harry Bloomfield
2018-06-20 14:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
I hold a pen between thumb and forefinger, with all finger joints bent. I
get lots of comments but that's how I've always done it.
It don't know what is the correct way, but I would hold one at the tip,
between first, second finger and thumb, with the top resting in the
crook of hand/thumb. I still have a sort of groove below the tip joint
of my second finger from the pen pressure.

I would sometimes swap to the alternative of - pen upper section
resting in the crook of first and second finger, to take the pressure
off that groove.

Yes, in my early years I was expected to use a pen and ink well at
school, once I had progresses from pencils. Only in my teens did I
progress to a Biro.
Terry Casey
2018-06-20 14:08:33 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, news0007
@eager.cx says...
Post by Bob Eager
I hold a pen between thumb and forefinger, with all finger joints bent. I
get lots of comments but that's how I've always done it.
Same here. I'm always fascinated by the way most folk younger
than me grasp a pen ...
--
Terry

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https://www.avg.com
Harry Bloomfield
2018-06-20 14:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Casey
Same here. I'm always fascinated by the way most folk younger
than me grasp a pen ...
They don't now do anything like as much hand writing as we had to do at
school, the world runs on keyboard entries now. From my point of view,
I am much happier on a keyboard, than with a pen - I no longer get the
cramps and it is much more legible lol .
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 14:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Same here. I'm always fascinated by the way most folk younger than me
grasp a pen ...
They don't now do anything like as much hand writing as we had to do at
school, the world runs on keyboard entries now. From my point of view, I
am much happier on a keyboard, than with a pen - I no longer get the
cramps and it is much more legible lol .
How about mouse/trackpads ?

sudden thought: I wonder if Android/iOS can be set up for lefties ?
Currently it seems to be set up for holding the phone in the left hand,
and using the right to tap.

Sounds irrelevant, until you realise that cover-cases are handed too ...
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 14:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
sudden thought: I wonder if Android/iOS can be set up for lefties ?
Currently it seems to be set up for holding the phone in the left hand,
and using the right to tap.
Sounds irrelevant, until you realise that cover-cases are handed too ...
https://lifehacker.com/enable-androids-secret-right-to-left-layout-if-
youre-le-1676267178

:)
Harry Bloomfield
2018-06-20 15:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
How about mouse/trackpads ?
I use those right handed.
dennis@home
2018-06-23 11:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Post by Jethro_uk
How about mouse/trackpads ?
I use those right handed.
I use either hand depending on where the tea is.
NY
2018-06-20 15:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Same here. I'm always fascinated by the way most folk younger than me
grasp a pen ...
They don't now do anything like as much hand writing as we had to do at
school, the world runs on keyboard entries now. From my point of view, I
am much happier on a keyboard, than with a pen - I no longer get the
cramps and it is much more legible lol .
How about mouse/trackpads ?
sudden thought: I wonder if Android/iOS can be set up for lefties ?
Currently it seems to be set up for holding the phone in the left hand,
and using the right to tap.
Sounds irrelevant, until you realise that cover-cases are handed too ...
When I use a cover-case (eg on my wife's phone) I fold the cover back under
the phone and then hold the phone in my left hand while using my right index
finger (not my thumb!!!!!!!!!) to select icons or type at the on-screen
keyboard. I'd expect a leftie to do exactly the same, though probably with
opposite hands.
Rod Speed
2018-06-20 19:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Same here. I'm always fascinated by the way most folk younger than me
grasp a pen ...
They don't now do anything like as much hand writing as we had to do at
school, the world runs on keyboard entries now. From my point of view, I
am much happier on a keyboard, than with a pen - I no longer get the
cramps and it is much more legible lol .
How about mouse/trackpads ?
That’s actually a brain fart.
Post by Jethro_uk
I wonder if Android/iOS can be set up for lefties ?
No they cant. iphones particularly have a few
physical switches on the edge of the phones.

Same with the watch.
Post by Jethro_uk
Currently it seems to be set up for holding the
phone in the left hand, and using the right to tap.
Not really, that op isnt really handed.
Post by Jethro_uk
Sounds irrelevant, until you realise
that cover-cases are handed too ...
But you can certainly get cover cases that are other handed.
Peeler
2018-06-20 21:37:30 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:33:28 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Jethro_uk
How about mouse/trackpads ?
That’s actually a brain fart.
<FLUSH>

I doubt anyone here wanted yet more senile piss from you, senile Rot!
--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"Shit you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: <ogoa38$pul$***@news.mixmin.net>
dennis@home
2018-06-23 11:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Same here. I'm always fascinated by the way most folk younger than me
grasp a pen ...
They don't now do anything like as much hand writing as we had to do at
school, the world runs on keyboard entries now. From my point of view, I
am much happier on a keyboard, than with a pen - I no longer get the
cramps and it is much more legible lol .
How about mouse/trackpads ?
sudden thought: I wonder if Android/iOS can be set up for lefties ?
Currently it seems to be set up for holding the phone in the left hand,
and using the right to tap.
Sounds irrelevant, until you realise that cover-cases are handed too ...
Buy one that is hinged at the bottom?
Terry Casey
2018-06-20 17:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Post by Terry Casey
Same here. I'm always fascinated by the way most folk younger
than me grasp a pen ...
They don't now do anything like as much hand writing as we had to do at
school, the world runs on keyboard entries now. From my point of view,
I am much happier on a keyboard, than with a pen - I no longer get the
cramps and it is much more legible lol .
These days, my handwriting is terrible!

Lack of practice, I suppose.

I've tracked down my fountain pen for use when I have to fill
in anything important - usually anything I don't have to read
myself!

But then, I've always liked the control that a fountain pen
gives you ...
--
Terry

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https://www.avg.com
NY
2018-06-20 18:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Casey
These days, my handwriting is terrible!
Lack of practice, I suppose.
I've tracked down my fountain pen for use when I have to fill
in anything important - usually anything I don't have to read
myself!
But then, I've always liked the control that a fountain pen
gives you ...
My handwriting is appalling. It was never very good - one of my first school
reports referred to the quality of my handwriting which was atrocious,
except that my parents and I had great difficult reading what the English
teacher had written on my report :-)

After a lot of practice, I got my writing reasonably OK, but at the expense
of being slow: in exams under time pressures it reverted to atrocious.

Since I've used a computer for most of what I write - I rarely write letters
to anyone when emails are easier and quicker to send and receive - my
writing has deteriorated again, so I have to take great care to slow down
when filling in a paper form or addressing an envelope.


I've still got my old cartridge pen. I found true fountain pens, filled from
a bottle of Quink, just too messy, though the smell of that ink takes me
straight back to the Lower Fourth at school, sitting in one of those desks
which had the seat joined onto the desk, and could be slid across the floor
on runners (*). But a cartridge is a good compromise. I prefer an ink pen to
a biro. Water-based ink pens (Pentel, Rollerball etc) are easier because the
ball moves more freely over the page than for a biro.

(*) One of the "masters" (teachers) at school had been a boy there 15 years
earlier and he had a foot in both camps when it came to allegiance, so he
told us how "when I were a lad" they used to all slide their desks-and-seats
towards the front, in unison, whenever the teacher's back was turned. They
did it so gradually that like the legendary "boiling frogs" experiment, the
master didn't notice what was happening, The goal was to have the master
penned into a corner by the end of the lesson :-)
Harry Bloomfield
2018-06-20 18:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
(*) One of the "masters" (teachers) at school had been a boy there 15 years
earlier and he had a foot in both camps when it came to allegiance, so he
told us how "when I were a lad" they used to all slide their desks-and-seats
towards the front, in unison, whenever the teacher's back was turned. They
did it so gradually that like the legendary "boiling frogs" experiment, the
master didn't notice what was happening, The goal was to have the master
penned into a corner by the end of the lesson :-)
:')
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-20 22:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Since I've used a computer for most of what I write - I rarely write
letters to anyone when emails are easier and quicker to send and
receive - my writing has deteriorated again, so I have to take great
care to slow down when filling in a paper form or addressing an
envelope.
I thought it was just me. Because I was never proud of my handwriting, I
took to using a computer perhaps earlier than many. As I also enjoyed
producing a reasonable looking document. Not just a chore. And my
handwriting has gone downhill ever since.
--
*And the cardiologist' s diet: - If it tastes good spit it out.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Rob Morley
2018-06-20 18:28:05 UTC
Permalink
On 20 Jun 2018 13:48:03 GMT
Post by Bob Eager
I hold a pen between thumb and forefinger, with all finger joints
bent. I get lots of comments but that's how I've always done it.
Perhaps, like me, you taught yourself to write before anyone thought to
show you the "proper" way to hold a pen?
NY
2018-06-20 19:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Morley
On 20 Jun 2018 13:48:03 GMT
Post by Bob Eager
I hold a pen between thumb and forefinger, with all finger joints
bent. I get lots of comments but that's how I've always done it.
Perhaps, like me, you taught yourself to write before anyone thought to
show you the "proper" way to hold a pen?
In the IMDB entry for the series Victoria, people have criticised Jenna
Coleman (how could anyone criticise someone so cute?) for holding her pen in
a "monkey's fist grip" rather than as Victoria would have done. But I'm not
sure exactly how Victoria *would* have held a pen and what was so bad about
the way Jenna portrayed it. At least she didn't grip the pen between the
first joint of her index and middle fingers, as a lot of today's school
children seem to do. I think the gist of the criticism was that the fingers
should be straight, with the pen aligned with the index finger, not with
fingers slightly curved, and held only between index finger and thumb, not
the three-fingered thumb-index grip with the pen resting on the middle
finger underneath for extra support and control which is how I was taught.

No matter how you hold your pen, all that matters in the end is whether
people can read your writing.
Dan S. MacAbre
2018-06-20 13:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Our lad is left-handed.  No stigma nowadays, of course, but it has
taken a
long time to get him to stop getting ink all over his hand as it moves
across what he's just written :-)
That was more of a problem when people wrote with slow-drying fountain-pen
Unusually (I suspect), our lad's school only allows fountain pens. The
old-fashioned part of me quite likes the idea, but it makes it much
harder for him to write without making a mess.
Post by NY
ink. Nowadays with quick-drying Biro ink, it's *less* of a problem, most of
the time. I can understand why in fountain pen days, left-handers used to
put their hand above the line of writing so the left side of the hand and
the little finger, which take the weight of the hand as you write, didn't
smear the ink.
I went to school with one girl who was left-handed and gripped the pen
between the first and last joints of her forefinger and middle finger
https://s22.postimg.cc/kgk5h5o35/20180620_135624.jpg, without using her
thumb, rather than between thumb and middle finger with forefinger on top
https://s22.postimg.cc/4v2tx7rkh/20180620_135659.jpg, as most people do.
That looked a *lot* more weird than the fact she was writing with her left
hand. Mind you, she took all the weight of her hand on the end of her little
finger, which allowed her to keep the base of her hand clear of the paper to
avoid it smearing the ink.
I've also seen someone holding their pen with only the thumb and
forefinger touching it and the middle finger tucked back
https://s22.postimg.cc/wwgvb59s1/20180620_140838.jpg which looks equally
uncomfortable.
But each to their own - whatever people find easiest.
Rod Speed
2018-06-20 19:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by NY
Our lad is left-handed. No stigma nowadays, of course, but it has taken a
long time to get him to stop getting ink all over his hand as it moves
across what he's just written :-)
That was more of a problem when people wrote with slow-drying
fountain-pen
Unusually (I suspect), our lad's school only allows fountain pens.
Fark, that's weird.
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
The old-fashioned part of me quite likes the idea, but it makes it much
harder for him to write without making a mess.
Post by NY
ink. Nowadays with quick-drying Biro ink, it's *less* of a problem, most of
the time. I can understand why in fountain pen days, left-handers used to
put their hand above the line of writing so the left side of the hand and
the little finger, which take the weight of the hand as you write, didn't
smear the ink.
I went to school with one girl who was left-handed and gripped the pen
between the first and last joints of her forefinger and middle finger
https://s22.postimg.cc/kgk5h5o35/20180620_135624.jpg, without using her
thumb, rather than between thumb and middle finger with forefinger on top
https://s22.postimg.cc/4v2tx7rkh/20180620_135659.jpg, as most people do.
That looked a *lot* more weird than the fact she was writing with her left
hand. Mind you, she took all the weight of her hand on the end of her little
finger, which allowed her to keep the base of her hand clear of the paper to
avoid it smearing the ink.
I've also seen someone holding their pen with only the thumb and
forefinger touching it and the middle finger tucked back
https://s22.postimg.cc/wwgvb59s1/20180620_140838.jpg which looks equally
uncomfortable.
But each to their own - whatever people find easiest.
Peeler
2018-06-20 21:33:26 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:16:57 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
Post by Rod Speed
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Unusually (I suspect), our lad's school only allows fountain pens.
Fark, that's weird.
Oh, the IRONY! LOL
--
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp addressing Rot Speed:
"You really are a clueless pillock."
MID: <***@4ax.com>
Rob Morley
2018-06-20 18:31:05 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 13:26:02 +0100
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Our lad is left-handed. No stigma nowadays, of course, but it has
taken a long time to get him to stop getting ink all over his hand as
it moves across what he's just written :-)
I always thought that left-handers should write from right to left i.e.
mirror writing, but I'm not aware of anyone who's actually learned to
do it that way.
harry
2018-06-21 05:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Morley
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 13:26:02 +0100
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Our lad is left-handed. No stigma nowadays, of course, but it has
taken a long time to get him to stop getting ink all over his hand as
it moves across what he's just written :-)
I always thought that left-handers should write from right to left i.e.
mirror writing, but I'm not aware of anyone who's actually learned to
do it that way.
Yes you do.
https://medium.com/@walkerschapters/why-leonardo-da-vinci-wrote-backwards-76187255d4ba
NY
2018-06-20 12:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Post by NY
Handedness is an interesting thing. I had lunch with a woman who ate with
her fork in her right hand and her knife in the left. I was puzzled
because I'd earlier seen her writing with her right hand. I asked her and
she looked bewildered: she was evidently so used to eating with her fork
in her right hand for any food that didn't require a knife that she
hadn't learned to eat with fork in left and knife in right, and
instinctively used her knife (on the rarer occasions) in the opposite
hand to the one she habitually used her fork in.
Interesting, very!
I was born a sinister, forced at school to use my right hand to write with
by tying my left behind my back. At 71 it now feels very odd to try to
even try write with my left, but most other things I can happily do with
either hand. I am left permanently confused by left and right, because I
don't have a natural main hand. I have to think for a while before laying
out knives and forks at the table. I use most tools with which ever hand
suits the easiest access, or in repetitive jobs often just change hands to
rest one or the other. Picking up a handed item like a circular saw, I
would need to test it with both hands, to see which hand worked best. I
get confused when shaking hands with someone as to which hand to offer and
my hand writing has always been terrible. I can though, beat most people
with hunt and peck on the keyboard.
It was shameful that schools etc used to try to force people to write with
their wrong hand in order to make them conform. If left-handedness was
exceptionally rare, it would be more understandable (though still
unforgiveable), but left-handers are about 10% of the population according
to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness.

According to that article, I'm cross-dominant: I am very strongly
right-handed for writing [1]; ambidextrous for most tasks if they are
unskilled [2]; and slightly left-handed for things like pouring from a
kettle or jug, probably because it allows me to use my right hand at the
same time for the more precise action of stirring what I'm pouring.

I've only met one truly ambidextrous person: Bertie, my maths teacher at
middle school, who revealed, in a moment of daftness on the all-the-sevens
day (7/7/1977), that he could write on the blackboard equally well, forwards
or mirror-image, with either hand. He simultaneously wrote the left half of
each line of a poem on the left blackboard and the right half (the rest of
each line) on the right. He could also write boustrophedon ("as the ox
ploughs" - a word he taught us), in other words, with the letters facing
forwards but written from right to left, like a dot-matrix, daisy-wheel or
inkjet printer prints on alternate head-passes. I thought of Bertie the
first time I saw a printer printing like that a few years later :-)

It's interesting that the article says "Men are somewhat more likely to
express a strongly dominant left hand than women". I wonder if that's
because a greater proportion of men than women are actually born
left-handed, or because they are more likely to resist attempts to change
them to be right-handed, because of their (stereotypically) "stronger"
personality?

Surprisingly, given that it is a precision action, I can use a computer
mouse almost as well with my left hand as my right hand, with one proviso:
the buttons *must* be the same way round and not mirror-imaged. I cannot use
a mouse in either hand if the left button is set to perform a right-click
action and vice-versa, as many left-handers seem to prefer. I'm different, I
instinctively use my middle finger on the left button and forefinger on the
right button if I hold the mouse in my left hand, so the "left means
left-click" association is stronger than the "forefinger means left-click"
mirror-image association ;-)


[1] I've tried writing with my left hand and can barely hold the pen, never
mind manage to form babyish letters.

[2] When changing hands to give one hand a rest while performing a
repetitive unskilled action.
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 13:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
[quoted text muted]
It was shameful that schools etc used to try to force people to write
with their wrong hand in order to make them conform. If left-handedness
was exceptionally rare, it would be more understandable (though still
unforgiveable), but left-handers are about 10% of the population
according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness.
However, as the OP is finding, the world is designed for the 90%.

So there's some sense in trying to ensure lefties can at least manage if
not excel with their right hand.

You're fucked if you are a left handed soldier, btw. ISTR Clarkson
messing around with a British SLR and pointing out that the fixed
cartridge ejection would make it impossible to fire left-handed.
NY
2018-06-20 13:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by NY
[quoted text muted]
It was shameful that schools etc used to try to force people to write
with their wrong hand in order to make them conform. If left-handedness
was exceptionally rare, it would be more understandable (though still
unforgiveable), but left-handers are about 10% of the population
according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness.
However, as the OP is finding, the world is designed for the 90%.
So there's some sense in trying to ensure lefties can at least manage if
not excel with their right hand.
Agreed. Righties are still in the considerable majority. I get the
impression that more left-handers can't use their right hands for even
non-precision tasks, than right-handers can use their left hand - at a
pinch, as a "cope" rather than "excel" fall-back strategy. But then I'm
probably *slightly* more ambidextrous than many people, so I'm biassed.
Post by Jethro_uk
You're fucked if you are a left handed soldier, btw. ISTR Clarkson
messing around with a British SLR and pointing out that the fixed
cartridge ejection would make it impossible to fire left-handed.
Is he left-handed? I've never noticed.
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 13:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by NY
[quoted text muted]
It was shameful that schools etc used to try to force people to write
with their wrong hand in order to make them conform. If
left-handedness was exceptionally rare, it would be more
understandable (though still unforgiveable), but left-handers are
about 10% of the population according to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness.
However, as the OP is finding, the world is designed for the 90%.
So there's some sense in trying to ensure lefties can at least manage
if not excel with their right hand.
Agreed. Righties are still in the considerable majority. I get the
impression that more left-handers can't use their right hands for even
non-precision tasks, than right-handers can use their left hand - at a
pinch, as a "cope" rather than "excel" fall-back strategy. But then I'm
probably *slightly* more ambidextrous than many people, so I'm biassed.
Post by Jethro_uk
You're fucked if you are a left handed soldier, btw. ISTR Clarkson
messing around with a British SLR and pointing out that the fixed
cartridge ejection would make it impossible to fire left-handed.
Is he left-handed? I've never noticed.
I don't know. But there was a gun on the bonnet of a car (it may have
been the first series of Grand Tour, where they have to "rescue"
someone). Either way, he picked up a rifle, fired it, and noted that it
sprayed red-hot cartridge casings to the RIGHT. Meaning if fired with the
left hand it's into the body of the soldier. He then noted bad luck if
you're a leftie in the British army.
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-20 13:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
I don't know. But there was a gun on the bonnet of a car (it may have
been the first series of Grand Tour, where they have to "rescue"
someone).
Crikey. First person I've ever heard admit to watching Grand Tour.
--
*Constipated People Don't Give A Crap*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 14:17:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jethro_uk
I don't know. But there was a gun on the bonnet of a car (it may have
been the first series of Grand Tour, where they have to "rescue"
someone).
Crikey. First person I've ever heard admit to watching Grand Tour.
Why not ? No less fun that TG was. Pure location porn too.

Not sure we would have got Prime solely for it. But since we had Prime
anyway ....
Rob Morley
2018-06-20 18:38:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 14:57:06 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jethro_uk
I don't know. But there was a gun on the bonnet of a car (it may
have been the first series of Grand Tour, where they have to
"rescue" someone).
Crikey. First person I've ever heard admit to watching Grand Tour.
I downloaded the first episode, but never got around to watching it.
I did sit through a whole episode of new Top Gear just in case it
wasn't quite as terrible as it first seemed, but sadly it was.
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-20 13:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Jethro_uk
You're fucked if you are a left handed soldier, btw. ISTR Clarkson
messing around with a British SLR and pointing out that the fixed
cartridge ejection would make it impossible to fire left-handed.
Is he left-handed? I've never noticed.
If you've ever seen him attempt any practical task involving tools, cack
handed is more like it. But then he is a journalist. Like so many can
write about many things, but not actually do them.
--
*Remember, no-one is listening until you fart.*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
John Rumm
2018-06-20 14:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Bloomfield
Post by NY
Handedness is an interesting thing. I had lunch with a woman who ate
with her fork in her right hand and her knife in the left. I was
puzzled because I'd earlier seen her writing with her right hand. I
asked her and she looked bewildered: she was evidently so used to
eating with her fork in her right hand for any food that didn't
require a knife that she hadn't learned to eat with fork in left and
knife in right, and instinctively used her knife (on the rarer
occasions) in the opposite hand to the one she habitually used her
fork in.
Interesting, very!
I was born a sinister, forced at school to use my right hand to write
with by tying my left behind my back. At 71 it now feels very odd to try
to even try write with my left, but most other things I can happily do
with either hand. I am left permanently confused by left and right,
because I don't have a natural main hand. I have to think for a while
before laying out knives and forks at the table. I use most tools with
which ever hand suits the easiest access, or in repetitive jobs often
just change hands to rest one or the other. Picking up a handed item
like a circular saw, I would need to test it with both hands, to see
which hand worked best. I get confused when shaking hands with someone
as to which hand to offer and my hand writing has always been terrible.
I can though, beat most people with hunt and peck on the keyboard.
I resemble that comment...

First school forced me to write with the "right" hand... So that is the
way I still do it (badly) today. However it still feels more natural to
eat left handed. Tools etc I can generally use both ways even though I
am marginally more right handed now.
--
Cheers,

John.

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Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 13:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
I'd not thought of a circular saw or other power tools as being "handed",
It's quite surprising when you look at the subtleties.

Not power tools, but steak knives and playing cards (not Waddingtons) are
two odd examples of handedness.
NY
2018-06-20 13:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by NY
I'd not thought of a circular saw or other power tools as being "handed",
It's quite surprising when you look at the subtleties.
Not power tools, but steak knives and playing cards (not Waddingtons) are
two odd examples of handedness.
I'll have a look next time I have steak in a restaurant (if I'm given a
proper steak knife) and see if it's handed. Most knives, forks and spoons
look symmetrical to me: maybe some steak knives are an exception and the
handle is thicker on one side of the blade than the other or the blade is
slightly curved.
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 13:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by NY
I'd not thought of a circular saw or other power tools as being "handed",
It's quite surprising when you look at the subtleties.
Not power tools, but steak knives and playing cards (not Waddingtons)
are two odd examples of handedness.
I'll have a look next time I have steak in a restaurant (if I'm given a
proper steak knife) and see if it's handed. Most knives, forks and
spoons look symmetrical to me: maybe some steak knives are an exception
and the handle is thicker on one side of the blade than the other or the
blade is slightly curved.
There's a slight - but designed - scallop from the serrations on one side
(goes to kitchen) - the LHS. I think it's meant to allow the meat to fall
away.

https://www.leftyslefthanded.com/Left_Handed_Steak_Knife_p/906950.htm

I was bought up right handed, but have since discovered some ambiguities.
I've always eaten left handed anyway - for no reason I know of. But it
was only when I noticed how awkward I found "regular" playing cards that
I discovered I fan and hold them left handed - and always have. What
masked the fact was we grew up using Waddingtons as standard, and they
are pleasingly ambidextrous.

Scissors ...
Rod Speed
2018-06-20 19:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by NY
I'd not thought of a circular saw or other power tools as being "handed",
It's quite surprising when you look at the subtleties.
Not power tools, but steak knives and playing cards (not Waddingtons) are
two odd examples of handedness.
I'll have a look next time I have steak in a restaurant (if I'm given a
proper steak knife) and see if it's handed. Most knives, forks and spoons
look symmetrical to me: maybe some steak knives are an exception and the
handle is thicker on one side of the blade than the other or the blade is
slightly curved.
None of my steak knives are handed.

Not sure what he means about playing cards, presumably the
way the head faces with the most valuable 3 cards in each suit.
Peeler
2018-06-20 21:34:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:10:26 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
Post by Rod Speed
Post by NY
I'll have a look next time I have steak in a restaurant (if I'm given a
proper steak knife) and see if it's handed. Most knives, forks and spoons
look symmetrical to me: maybe some steak knives are an exception and the
handle is thicker on one side of the blade than the other or the blade is
slightly curved.
None of my steak knives are handed.
Thanks! That's all we wanted to know, senile oaf! <BG>
--
Cursitor Doom about Rot Speed:
"The man is a conspicuous and unashamed ignoramus."
MID: <pgbeg9$bv4$***@dont-email.me>
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-20 12:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs that are
better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw? Obviously can't be used for
cutting large sheets of stuff, etc, but since I've had mine hardly ever
get out my hand held one.

And they ain't really handed - although I'd not say my hand held one is
either.
--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Burns
2018-06-20 12:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw?
Or a tracksaw? see Peter Millard's youtube channel for his talk through
of the festool one(s)
GB
2018-06-20 12:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw?
I have one, and it's fantastic.
Or a tracksaw?  see Peter Millard's youtube channel for his talk through
of the festool one(s)
There's a very cheap track saw over at Aldididl right now.

https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/parkside-1200w-trackplunge-saw-with-guide-rail-6999-lidl-2958781

Quite tempted!
newshound
2018-06-20 13:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw?
I have one, and it's fantastic.
Me too, but not for large sheets (which is what I use a circular saw for
a lot, together with a sawboard of course.
Post by GB
Or a tracksaw?  see Peter Millard's youtube channel for his talk
through of the festool one(s)
There's a very cheap track saw over at Aldididl right now.
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/parkside-1200w-trackplunge-saw-with-guide-rail-6999-lidl-2958781
Quite tempted!
FWIW I think the handedness will still be a problem, especially if you
have a weaker right hand (rather than just a less dextrous one). The
point is, the blade is well offset to the right side of the baseplate,
and the motors always hang off to the left so as not to obstruct your
view of the cut.

I'm firmly right handed (my father was somewhat ambidextrous). But I
took up eating "left handed" when I was very small, this just seemed the
sensible way to me. It is also how Americans eat (but I did not know
that at the time).


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
NY
2018-06-20 13:23:46 UTC
Permalink
But I took up eating "left handed" when I was very small, this just seemed
the sensible way to me. It is also how Americans eat (but I did not know
that at the time).
Yes, the way that we Brits eat, with a spoon in the right hand (for soup or
a dessert) but a fork in the left hand (for main course) is slightly odd,
when you think about it, given than both "tools" do a very similar job.

I gather that some Americans cut each mouthful with the knife in their right
hand, then put down their knife and use the fork in their right hand to
transfer that mouthful to their mouth, before picking up the knife for the
next mouthful. Sounds incredibly slow and laborious but was actually
designed to force people not to eat too quickly :-) Not sure I believe that
story: most Americans rarely seem to use a knife and cut their food with the
blunt edge of their fork in their right hand.
Rod Speed
2018-06-20 19:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
But I took up eating "left handed" when I was very small, this just
seemed the sensible way to me. It is also how Americans eat (but I did
not know that at the time).
Yes, the way that we Brits eat, with a spoon in the right hand (for soup
or a dessert) but a fork in the left hand (for main course) is slightly
odd, when you think about it, given than both "tools" do a very similar
job.
I gather that some Americans cut each mouthful with the knife in their
right hand, then put down their knife and use the fork in their right hand
to transfer that mouthful to their mouth, before picking up the knife for
the next mouthful. Sounds incredibly slow and laborious but was actually
designed to force people not to eat too quickly :-) Not sure I believe
that story: most Americans rarely seem to use a knife and cut their food
with the blunt edge of their fork in their right hand.
That’s not going to work with steak and chops etc.
Peeler
2018-06-20 21:40:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:07:05 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
Post by Rod Speed
Post by NY
that story: most Americans rarely seem to use a knife and cut their food
with the blunt edge of their fork in their right hand.
That’s not going to work with steak and chops etc.
Darn, senile Rot is also an expert on kitchen knives! <VBG>
--
Cursitor Doom about Rot Speed:
"The man is a conspicuous and unashamed ignoramus."
MID: <pgbeg9$bv4$***@dont-email.me>
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 13:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
Post by GB
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw?
I have one, and it's fantastic.
Me too, but not for large sheets (which is what I use a circular saw for
a lot, together with a sawboard of course.
Post by GB
Or a tracksaw?  see Peter Millard's youtube channel for his talk
through of the festool one(s)
There's a very cheap track saw over at Aldididl right now.
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/parkside-1200w-trackplunge-saw-with-
guide-rail-6999-lidl-2958781
Post by newshound
Post by GB
Quite tempted!
FWIW I think the handedness will still be a problem, especially if you
have a weaker right hand (rather than just a less dextrous one). The
point is, the blade is well offset to the right side of the baseplate,
and the motors always hang off to the left so as not to obstruct your
view of the cut.
I'm firmly right handed (my father was somewhat ambidextrous). But I
took up eating "left handed" when I was very small, this just seemed the
sensible way to me. It is also how Americans eat (but I did not know
that at the time).
I mouse with my left hand as it's supposed to be done - buttons swapped
too. Has caused a minor flap when I've done some tech tests, and I ask
for the PC to be switched. Especially if they have provided a contoured
mouse.
Rod Speed
2018-06-20 18:59:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw?
I have one, and it's fantastic.
Me too, but not for large sheets (which is what I use a circular saw for a
lot, together with a sawboard of course.
Post by GB
Post by Andy Burns
Or a tracksaw? see Peter Millard's youtube channel for his talk through
of the festool one(s)
There's a very cheap track saw over at Aldididl right now.
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/parkside-1200w-trackplunge-saw-with-guide-rail-6999-lidl-2958781
Quite tempted!
FWIW I think the handedness will still be a problem, especially if you
have a weaker right hand (rather than just a less dextrous one). The point
is, the blade is well offset to the right side of the baseplate, and the
motors always hang off to the left so as not to obstruct your view of the
cut.
I'm firmly right handed (my father was somewhat ambidextrous). But I took
up eating "left handed" when I was very small, this just seemed the
sensible way to me. It is also how Americans eat
No its not.
(but I did not know that at the time).
Peeler
2018-06-20 21:44:30 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 04:59:59 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
Post by Rod Speed
I'm firmly right handed (my father was somewhat ambidextrous). But I took
up eating "left handed" when I was very small, this just seemed the
sensible way to me. It is also how Americans eat
No its not.
What does it matter to you, senile Rot? You either are already being fed or
will soon be fed by your nurse in your old people's home!
--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID: <ev1p6ml7ywd5$***@sqwertz.com>
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-20 13:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw?
I have one, and it's fantastic.
Post by Andy Burns
Or a tracksaw? see Peter Millard's youtube channel for his talk through
of the festool one(s)
There's a very cheap track saw over at Aldididl right now.
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/parkside-1200w-trackplunge-saw-with-guide-rail-6999-lidl-2958781
Quite tempted!
Quite. I've got a strong sense of self preservation and power tools in a
stand of some sort don't scare me as much as hand held ones. Especially
angle grinders. ;-)
--
*Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
John Rumm
2018-06-20 15:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by GB
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Have you considered a sliding mitre bench saw?
I have one, and it's fantastic.
Post by Andy Burns
Or a tracksaw? see Peter Millard's youtube channel for his talk through
of the festool one(s)
There's a very cheap track saw over at Aldididl right now.
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/parkside-1200w-trackplunge-saw-with-guide-rail-6999-lidl-2958781
Quite tempted!
Quite. I've got a strong sense of self preservation and power tools in a
stand of some sort don't scare me as much as hand held ones. Especially
angle grinders. ;-)
Odd really, when in many cases the fixed power tool can be more
dangerous as it leave both hands free to move close to the blade. A
hand-held circular saw need at least one hand on the main handle safely
out of the way. (and probably two if its a bigger saw)
--
Cheers,

John.

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Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-20 15:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Odd really, when in many cases the fixed power tool can be more
dangerous as it leave both hands free to move close to the blade. A
hand-held circular saw need at least one hand on the main handle safely
out of the way. (and probably two if its a bigger saw)
When I'm cutting things on my sliding saw, they are clamped down. Only one
hand needed to operate it - and that's on the handle, well away from the
blade.
--
*Nostalgia isn't what is used to be.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
John Rumm
2018-06-20 23:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by John Rumm
Odd really, when in many cases the fixed power tool can be more
dangerous as it leave both hands free to move close to the blade. A
hand-held circular saw need at least one hand on the main handle safely
out of the way. (and probably two if its a bigger saw)
When I'm cutting things on my sliding saw, they are clamped down. Only one
hand needed to operate it - and that's on the handle, well away from the
blade.
I was thinking more table saw rather than SCMS...

(oddly my SCMS is actually slightly biased for right hand use, because
the lever which unlocks the blade guard is naturally lifted when a right
hand grips the main handle, but less so when a left hand does (you need
to remember to lift the tips of the fingers slightly) )
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
John Rumm
2018-06-20 13:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs that are
better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
FWIW I was thinking of the Evolution Rage saw, which I have seen get good press
here.
Circular saws are not especially "handed" as such since the handles are
designed to work with either hand.

They have to chose which side the blade is on with respect to the body,
Oddly most cordless circular saws opt for the other orientation...
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
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\=================================================================/
Jethro_uk
2018-06-20 14:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to
stick to hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration
for me is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat
'malformed' right hand (Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like
this are increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority
right-handed folk. My right hand has less strength than my left and
sometimes it is awkward for me to 'hold a handle and press a button'
with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs
that are better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
FWIW I was thinking of the Evolution Rage saw, which I have seen get
good press here.
Circular saws are not especially "handed" as such since the handles are
designed to work with either hand.
They have to chose which side the blade is on with respect to the body,
Oddly most cordless circular saws opt for the other orientation...
Switches ? Safety catches ?
John Rumm
2018-06-20 16:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by John Rumm
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to
stick to hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration
for me is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat
'malformed' right hand (Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like
this are increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority
right-handed folk. My right hand has less strength than my left and
sometimes it is awkward for me to 'hold a handle and press a button'
with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs
that are better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
FWIW I was thinking of the Evolution Rage saw, which I have seen get
good press here.
Circular saws are not especially "handed" as such since the handles are
designed to work with either hand.
They have to chose which side the blade is on with respect to the body,
Oddly most cordless circular saws opt for the other orientation...
Switches ? Safety catches ?
Not usually a problem on modern saws, but yup sometimes the trigger
release was single sided on older saws.

All my current ones have a control you can nudge from either side.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
jkn
2018-06-20 20:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs that are
better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
FWIW I was thinking of the Evolution Rage saw, which I have seen get good press
here.
Circular saws are not especially "handed" as such since the handles are
designed to work with either hand.
They have to chose which side the blade is on with respect to the body,
Oddly most cordless circular saws opt for the other orientation...
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Gosh, what a lot of replies to my posting ... some almost on-topic! ;-)

In answer to a couple of questions raised:

- Yes, Poland's Syndrome like I understand Jeremy Beadle had. I have never seen
a close-up of his hand so don't know how similar mine it - there is a lot of
variation in the effect, and in fact the main diagnostic feature is not the
'dactyl' (claw-like) hand, but a loss of the pectoral muscle and change in
the rib shape on the same side. However that is not so noticeable, at least
with my clothes on ;-o

- would I have been right-handed otherwise? Who knows. My parents did not
pressure me, thank Bob, which I think in part accounts for my general skill
with my hands. I can type, drive, hang-glide, play the guitar and several
other instruments, ect. ect. No-one else in my family is left-handed. I don't
feel in any sense that I 'might have been' right handed, but I think it very
possible.that without having the Syndrome that I would have been.

- I play the guitar right-handed, and use a mouse mat right handed.

As for the actual question ... Seems like I might have to go into a shop and
have a go at man-handling a saw. I am sure I can use it by standing askance if
necessary, I just wondered if there were some that were less 'handed' than
others. It's a bit like cameras, which are getting incredibly ergonomic ...
as long as your hands fit the makers' idea of what shape a hand should be...

Cheers
J^n
Vir Campestris
2018-06-21 22:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkn
Gosh, what a lot of replies to my posting ... some almost on-topic!
As a left hander I have to use a circular saw right handed. Unless
you're ripping big things a jigsaw might be easier - they are more
symmetric. (If you are ripping big things it won't be up to it)

Every one I've ever seen is right handed. Designed that you cut with
your right, hold the work with your left, and it throws the dust away
from you.

But google suggests they do exist.

Andy
John Rumm
2018-06-22 10:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by jkn
Gosh, what a lot of replies to my posting ... some almost on-topic!
As a left hander I have to use a circular saw right handed. Unless
you're ripping big things a jigsaw might be easier - they are more
symmetric. (If you are ripping big things it won't be up to it)
The saw will be up to it, but it will be slower and the cut probably
less accurate.
Post by Vir Campestris
Every one I've ever seen is right handed. Designed that you cut with
your right, hold the work with your left, and it throws the dust away
from you.
Not really sure what all the fuss is about... I use mine left and right
handed. My cordless is what you might call "left handed" (i.e. blade on
the left), and I use that with either hand as well.

Quite often the hand you use is dictated by the cut you are making, not
your preference or the saw layout.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Thomas Prufer
2018-06-20 20:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Circular saws are not especially "handed" as such since the handles are
designed to work with either hand.
... though they may spit the dust and chips away from a right-hander.

A hose connection for a vacuum/dust extractor helps.


Thomas Prufer
John Rumm
2018-06-20 23:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Prufer
Post by John Rumm
Circular saws are not especially "handed" as such since the handles are
designed to work with either hand.
... though they may spit the dust and chips away from a right-hander.
Depends on which side of it you are standing!
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Thomas Prufer
2018-06-21 07:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Depends on which side of it you are standing!
I recall a thicknesser which blew chips out the back -- where I stood to take
out the wood, occasionally as a helper. Anywhere in back was "not the right
side" -- and anwhere in front meant less sting, but just the same airborne
dust...

Here, like this -- the funnel and tube are a retrofit. Originally there was just
a rectangular hole, with a good view of the spinning blades:

https://goo.gl/images/3k5vF2

Good solid machine, but two straight blades that were removed, ground, and had
to be reset to the correct height by hand, and then stoned.


Thomas Prufer
Steve Walker
2018-06-20 14:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs that are
better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
Odd, they seem to do a number of left-handed cordless saws, but there is
a lack of corded ones.

I know they are available, because my dad has one - some no-name, cheapo
that he bought when his old one wasn't available (I had it!) No problem
for him as he is ambidextrous - in fact he was left handed, but forced
to use his right.

SteveW
harry
2018-06-20 15:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs that are
better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
FWIW I was thinking of the Evolution Rage saw, which I have seen get good press
here.
Thanks
J^n
Left handers (I am one) have learned to manage in the mostly RH world.
NY
2018-06-20 16:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by harry
Left handers (I am one) have learned to manage in the mostly RH world.
Though they have a good moan about it. I was with someone the other day and
we were walking up to a front door to ring the bell. Now doorbells are
usually on the opposite side to hinges, and hinges can be on either side. I
tend to use whichever hand is closer to ring the bell, depending on which
side of the frame the bell is. This guy, who was left handed, had a good
moan because the doorbell was on the right-hand side and he'd have to use
his left hand across his body. WTF didn't he use his right hand: that's not
a precision action that requires the dominant hand.

Sometimes you adapt to suit the environment. I change gear with my left hand
because that's the side that the gear lever is in a RHD car. It may be
easier to use my right hand (in an LHD car, obviously!) but that doesn't
mean I complain. I've never driven a manual LHD car, so I don't know if it's
any easier for a rightie using their left hand than in an RHD car to use
their left. It wasn't exactly a problem using an automatic selector with my
right hand, though in an automatic you move that much less frequently: when
setting off, reversing, parking - and I also shift into neutral when I stop
in traffic so I can take my foot off the footbrake (*).

Writing is a problem for lefties - it's easier to smudge the ink. A shaped,
asymmetric mouse may feel uncomfortable in the left hand if it's been
designed for the right. When I was required to use a leftie's mouse, it was
easier to use my left hand than to re-route the cable so it was on my right,
though I did temporarily set it to left button = left-click - and write
myself a big note to remind me to set it back afterwards! It's interesting
which actions you instinctively expect to be mirror-imaged and which not: it
never occurs to me to left-click with my right (index) finger when mousing
with my left hand, but the first time I drove an LHD car I instinctively
expected the indicator and wiper stalks to be mirrored on an LHD car - weird
distinction in my brain ;-)


(*) My pet hate, which I would penalise with slow strangulation, is people
who sit in traffic with their brake lights glaring in your face (especially
at night when they are much brighter than the dark surroundings) because
they can't be bothered to apply the handbrake and go into neutral. Unless I
anticipate being stopped for less than five seconds, I apply the handbrake
and come off the footbrake, and shift into neutral.
dennis@home
2018-06-24 12:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by NY
Left handers (I am one)  have learned to manage in the mostly RH world.
Though they have a good moan about it. I was with someone the other day
and we were walking up to a front door to ring the bell. Now doorbells
are usually on the opposite side to hinges, and hinges can be on either
side. I tend to use whichever hand is closer to ring the bell, depending
on which side of the frame the bell is. This guy, who was left handed,
had a good moan because the doorbell was on the right-hand side and he'd
have to use his left hand across his body. WTF didn't he use his right
hand: that's not a precision action that requires the dominant hand.
Put a microswitch on the knocker in the middle so lefties and righties
can have a moan.
Bob Eager
2018-06-24 13:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by NY
Left handers (I am one)  have learned to manage in the mostly RH world.
Though they have a good moan about it. I was with someone the other day
and we were walking up to a front door to ring the bell. Now doorbells
are usually on the opposite side to hinges, and hinges can be on either
side. I tend to use whichever hand is closer to ring the bell,
depending on which side of the frame the bell is. This guy, who was
left handed, had a good moan because the doorbell was on the right-hand
side and he'd have to use his left hand across his body. WTF didn't he
use his right hand: that's not a precision action that requires the
dominant hand.
Put a microswitch on the knocker in the middle so lefties and righties
can have a moan.
Our doorbell is in the middle of the door. Right below the brass plate
that says: "PLEASE USE THE BELL".

Some still knock only...
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-24 18:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by ***@home
Put a microswitch on the knocker in the middle so lefties and righties
can have a moan.
Our doorbell is in the middle of the door. Right below the brass plate
that says: "PLEASE USE THE BELL".
Some still knock only...
I recently fitted new door furniture, including bell push. Found a nice
illuminated one, and changed the rather weedy light for a pair of LEDs
which are visible in daylight. Since then not had anyone knock rather than
use the bell. (The old push looked old, even although it did work)
--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Burns
2018-06-24 18:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I recently fitted new door furniture, including bell push. Found a nice
illuminated one, and changed the rather weedy light for a pair of LEDs
which are visible in daylight.
same here
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Since then not had anyone knock rather than
use the bell.
quite a few ring, then just a few seconds later (when I'm already on the
way down the stairs) knock anyway

One postie even tries to open my front door, it has a split pad handle
so always needs a key from outside, when I opened it he said "oh sorry,
I thought it was a porch" but he tried to do it again another day.
Dave Plowman (News)
2018-06-24 22:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I recently fitted new door furniture, including bell push. Found a nice
illuminated one, and changed the rather weedy light for a pair of LEDs
which are visible in daylight.
same here
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Since then not had anyone knock rather than
use the bell.
quite a few ring, then just a few seconds later (when I'm already on the
way down the stairs) knock anyway
Can they hear the bell ring? They can here.
--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker? *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Bob Eager
2018-06-24 22:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I recently fitted new door furniture, including bell push. Found a
nice illuminated one, and changed the rather weedy light for a pair
of LEDs which are visible in daylight.
same here
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Since then not had anyone knock rather than use the bell.
quite a few ring, then just a few seconds later (when I'm already on
the way down the stairs) knock anyway
Can they hear the bell ring? They can here.
I'm about to install a speaker so that the system plays a sound file when
the bell is pressed.

"The bell is ringing. Please wait."
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Andy Burns
2018-06-25 05:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Andy Burns
quite a few ring, then just a few seconds later (when I'm already on the
way down the stairs) knock anyway
Can they hear the bell ring? They can here.
Yes, it's only a few feet from the door ...

Rob Morley
2018-06-20 18:07:13 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 04:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs
around the place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have
tended to stick to hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other
consideration for me is that I am left handed, and have a small and
somewhat 'malformed' right hand (Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is
interested).
There was a lad at school with that - I remember he played the trumpet
rather well.
Post by jkn
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like
this are increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority
right-handed folk. My right hand has less strength than my left and
sometimes it is awkward for me to 'hold a handle and press a button'
with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs
that are better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst
us?
Most of what i use a circular saw for (ripping 8x4 sheets of ply etc.
or cutting rebates) could be better done with a bench saw. A mitre saw
is really useful for crosscutting e.g. 4x2, a sliding mitre saw handles
wider stuff too. Add a decent jigsaw and you probably don't need a
circular saw. Or there's always the radial arm saw, which will do most
things if you have the space for it.
newshound
2018-06-20 21:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Morley
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 04:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs
around the place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have
tended to stick to hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other
consideration for me is that I am left handed, and have a small and
somewhat 'malformed' right hand (Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is
interested).
There was a lad at school with that - I remember he played the trumpet
rather well.
Post by jkn
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like
this are increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority
right-handed folk. My right hand has less strength than my left and
sometimes it is awkward for me to 'hold a handle and press a button'
with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs
that are better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst
us?
Most of what i use a circular saw for (ripping 8x4 sheets of ply etc.
or cutting rebates) could be better done with a bench saw. A mitre saw
is really useful for crosscutting e.g. 4x2, a sliding mitre saw handles
wider stuff too. Add a decent jigsaw and you probably don't need a
circular saw. Or there's always the radial arm saw, which will do most
things if you have the space for it.
But you need a lot of space around your bench saw to handle 8 x 4s. And
a big saw table with extensions, or lots of supports at the right
height. And then try making accurate, straight angled cuts with respect
to the edges.

Whereas with a circular saw, you just put two workmates out on the patio
(or even indoors), plonk the board on them, clamp on the sawboard and
away you go.

I agree that the bench saw comes into its own for rebates, also for
ripping mitres or chamfers.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
dennis@home
2018-06-23 11:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by jkn
Hi All
I am thinking of getting a circular saw (185mm) for a few jobs around the
place. I am plenty 'handy' enough but for woodworking have tended to stick to
hand tools for most of the things I need to do.
Apart from the fact that they are scary things, one other consideration for me
is that I am left handed, and have a small and somewhat 'malformed' right hand
(Poland's Syndrome, if anyone is interested).
This normally causes me no problems, but I am aware that tools like this are
increasingly ergonomically designed for the majority right-handed folk. My right
hand has less strength than my left and sometimes it is awkward for me to
'hold a handle and press a button' with it at the same time - stuff like that.
Are there any left-handers here who can offer opinions about designs that are
better suited (or less ill-suited) to the sinister amongst us?
FWIW I was thinking of the Evolution Rage saw, which I have seen get good press
here.
Thanks
J^n
Looking on amazon the mains ones have the handle and motor on the
opposite side to the battery ones so maybe you should by a cordless one?

Or maybe a table saw for ripping stuff and a sliding mitre saw for cross
cutting?
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