Discussion:
Compulsary New Radiators
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Funny Lingus
2021-01-13 06:01:52 UTC
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I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years and
now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot water
system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to make home
heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency gain would
obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather than direct
electricity.
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead wall
space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs landing
will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate short runs of
pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact job.

My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but with
gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking down and
the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at least a couple
of dozen times now since 2019.

Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge amount
of heat, although double glazed.

Best regards
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
2021-01-13 08:23:31 UTC
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Not sure they should be compulsory, I use Storage heaters and have been
pleased with them except for the clunky mechanical louvers getting stuck
occasionally.

I thought the whole idea was eventually to use a reversible heat pump and
then it could be more efficient.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years and
now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot water
system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to make home
heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency gain would
obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather than direct
electricity.
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead
wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs
landing will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate short
runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact job.
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but with
gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking down
and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at least a
couple of dozen times now since 2019.
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge amount
of heat, although double glazed.
Best regards
alan_m
2021-01-13 08:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Not sure they should be compulsory, I use Storage heaters and have been
pleased with them except for the clunky mechanical louvers getting stuck
occasionally.
I thought the whole idea was eventually to use a reversible heat pump and
then it could be more efficient.
Brian
The OP suggested that a "heat pipe" was going to be installed along with
an electric boiler so I assume that maybe he was referring to a heat
pump (air sourced). He doesn't mention cost but possibly no change from
£10k.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Paul
2021-01-13 11:25:22 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Post by Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Not sure they should be compulsory, I use Storage heaters and have been
pleased with them except for the clunky mechanical louvers getting stuck
occasionally.
I thought the whole idea was eventually to use a reversible heat pump and
then it could be more efficient.
Brian
The OP suggested that a "heat pipe" was going to be installed along with
an electric boiler so I assume that maybe he was referring to a heat
pump (air sourced). He doesn't mention cost but possibly no change from
£10k.
Heat pipes are amazing. They use phase change (vapor changing back
to fluid, releasing the heat of vaporization) as a transport mechanism.
Some hobbyist computers have heatpipes in the CPU heatsink, and
the transport mechanism is so powerful, it has better thermal
conduction properties than an equivalent diameter of solid copper.
That's because it is an active transport, whereas solid copper
is merely a passive transport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

Heatpipes don't have to be expensive to work.

They can also "work uphill", if the inside surface of
the plumbing is "sintered" and the capillary action
that results, allows condensed fluid to travel uphill.
A more preferred situation, is for the condensed fluid
to flow downhill back to the heat source (storage heater).

You could do this:

In the diagram, the working fluid in the storage heater (water),
does not mix with the working fluid in the heatpipe (pure alcohol).
The entire heatpipe only has a few teaspoons of alcohol. It does
not have, nor need, gallons of alcohol. The transport is vapor
phase, and little vapor is needed.

+-+
| +== Radiator
+-------------+ heat pipe | +==
| |+------------------------+ +==
| Storage || +-----------------------+
| heater || | (hollow) condenses
| |+--+
+-------------+ Makes
alcohol [Vapor phase transport]
vapor

The benefit is, you don't need the storage tank in the upstairs room.

Now, the problem with placing a heatpump on the left hand
side of that picture, is the need for winter heating and
summer cooling, to work with the same gubbins. In principle,
I think you could make it work. But... it might not have
the degree of efficiency desired. If I only had to set it
up for one season (only for winter heating), I could
make it work slightly better.

Just as the general discussion of heatpumps leaves me cold.
Heatpumps are a low quality heat source, requiring extraordinary
efforts to transfer the heat into a room. Adding a heatpipe
to the picture, is just additional aggravation, making
a "marginal situation", "more marginal". Stupid even.

The electric storage heater, the electric part is
"high quality" heat. When you couple it with the
storage part, that degrades the quality a bit. If the
water cools down to 40C, what do you do with the
remaining heat ? That's not a high enough temp
to really heat the room any more.

Heatpipes have a design power limit. For example, if
you put more than 200W into the CPU heatsink, all
of the working fluid in the pipes remains in the
vapor phase, and the nice thermal pumping action
stops. The idea then, is to ensure the heatpipe is
big enough, for the application, so it doesn't "saturate".

Heatpipes have apparently already been used in
air-to-air heat exchangers for R2000 homes. But I
haven't seen any pictures of working units of that type,
so I don't know what the implementation looks like.

Paul
alan_m
2021-01-13 08:55:12 UTC
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Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead
wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs
landing will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate short
runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact job.
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but
with gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking
down and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at
least a couple of dozen times now since 2019.
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge
amount of heat, although double glazed.
Best regards
The reason for radiators under windows is that you get a cold downward
draft from the window which even in a well heated room makes your feet
feel cold and you perceive that the room is much colder than it actually
is. Putting a radiator under the window counteracts this downward cold
draft.

If the housing association is proposing air sourced heat pumps then be
prepared for much larger radiators.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Clive Arthur
2021-01-13 10:05:13 UTC
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Post by alan_m
The reason for radiators under windows is that you get a cold downward
draft from the window which even in a well heated room makes your feet
feel cold and you perceive that the room is much colder than it actually
is. Putting a radiator under the window counteracts this downward cold
draft.
The main reason is that it's generally otherwise unused space.
--
Cheers
Clive
Max Demian
2021-01-13 10:30:02 UTC
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Permalink
Post by alan_m
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted
behind inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is
all dead wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The
upstairs landing will be housing the electric boiler and would
facililitate short runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner,
more compact job.
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but
with gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps
breaking down and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the
boiler, at least a couple of dozen times now since 2019.
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the
doors would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the
storage heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a
huge amount of heat, although double glazed.
The reason for radiators under windows is that you get a cold downward
draft from the window which even in a well heated room makes your feet
feel cold and you perceive that the room is much colder than it actually
is. Putting a radiator under the window counteracts this downward cold
draft.
I think that's much less important with double glazing and better wall
insulation as there won't be such a temperature gradient across the room.
--
Max Demian
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-13 11:49:27 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Max Demian
Post by alan_m
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the
doors would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the
storage heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a
huge amount of heat, although double glazed.
The reason for radiators under windows is that you get a cold
downward
Post by Max Demian
Post by alan_m
draft from the window which even in a well heated room makes your feet
feel cold and you perceive that the room is much colder than it
actually. Putting a radiator under the window counteracts this
downward
Post by Max Demian
Post by alan_m
cold draft.
I think that's much less important with double glazing and better wall
insulation as there won't be such a temperature gradient across the room.
It's not so much a temperature gradient across the room as air
ciculation. The windows, double or single glazed, will cool the air
this becomes more dense and sinks drawing warmer air down. This sets
up a circulation, the bottomm line being your feet are in a cold
draft.

Decent curtains outside the window reveal and tucked behind the top
of the radiator keep the warm air in and any circulation within the
reveal. Even better if you can fit another set of curtains adjacent
to the windows.

Behind doors strikes me as a really bad place for a radiator.
Are doors habitually left open or closed? Open is going to restrict
how much heat the raditor can effectively transfer to the room.

Will there be enough space for a radiator to fit without fouling the
door when it is open?.

Doors tend to be opposite windows, this will enhance the circulation
due to the window cooling effect.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-01-13 14:16:49 UTC
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Post by alan_m
The reason for radiators under windows is that you get a cold downward
draft from the window which even in a well heated room makes your feet
feel cold and you perceive that the room is much colder than it actually
is. Putting a radiator under the window counteracts this downward cold
draft.
I was told it aids circulation in the room, evening up the temperature.
Although suspect it was just a convenient place to put it in many rooms.
--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Owain Lastname
2021-01-13 09:07:07 UTC
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Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge amount
of heat, although double glazed.
British Standard 5449 "(Central Heating) Forced circulation hot water heating systems for domestic premises" recommends: "Wherever practicable individual heat emitters (other than fan convectors) should be located on outside walls preferably beneath windows to offset the cooling effect: it is an advantage to choose an emitter of such a length that it occupies the full width of the window."

My experience is that installers now prefer to put radiators on internal walls ostensibly to reduce heat loss but I think it's actually because it uses a lot less pipe. They also like radiators back-to-back on the same wall for the same reason.

A housing association job in an occupied property will try to be the quickest, easiest, (cheapest) least disruptive job possible.

Storage heaters shouldn't be on external walls because of their far greater heat loss to the back of the heater.

In larger rooms I would push for two radiators where possible.

I had a grant-assisted heating system put in last year and the installers hated me. They wanted a quick easy cheap install with pipes going across the hall ceiling, only to find that all my cornicing has cabling inside it. (Concrete floor and ceiling in a flat.) So they ended up with long 22mm pipe runs round the entire perimeter of the building. I regard this as useful background heat even if the radiators are off.

Also watch them installing them because they seem to default to minmum spacing off the wall to look "neater". I made tnem turn the wall brackets round to space radiators further off the external walls.

Overall the job wasn't what I'd have wanted if I was paying for it all myself but a new gas supply, boiler and 6 rads for £1100 all in was a bargain.

Owain
charles
2021-01-13 09:55:47 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the
storage heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a
huge amount of heat, although double glazed.
British Standard 5449 "(Central Heating) Forced circulation hot water
heating systems for domestic premises" recommends: "Wherever practicable
individual heat emitters (other than fan convectors) should be located on
outside walls preferably beneath windows to offset the cooling effect: it
is an advantage to choose an emitter of such a length that it occupies
the full width of the window."
My experience is that installers now prefer to put radiators on internal
walls ostensibly to reduce heat loss but I think it's actually because it
uses a lot less pipe.
When we moved into this house' over 40 years ago, we found the radiators
in the new extension were in the middle of two no-window walls. Basically,
nowhere to put furniture such as bookcase or piano. I capped off one feed
and extended the other to under the window. Had to do it on the surface
since the room has a concrete floor. The rest of the house has suspended
wooded floors. [Snip]
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Andrew
2021-01-13 13:53:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the
storage heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a
huge amount of heat, although double glazed.
British Standard 5449 "(Central Heating) Forced circulation hot water
heating systems for domestic premises" recommends: "Wherever practicable
individual heat emitters (other than fan convectors) should be located on
outside walls preferably beneath windows to offset the cooling effect: it
is an advantage to choose an emitter of such a length that it occupies
the full width of the window."
My experience is that installers now prefer to put radiators on internal
walls ostensibly to reduce heat loss but I think it's actually because it
uses a lot less pipe.
When we moved into this house' over 40 years ago, we found the radiators
in the new extension were in the middle of two no-window walls. Basically,
nowhere to put furniture such as bookcase or piano. I capped off one feed
and extended the other to under the window. Had to do it on the surface
since the room has a concrete floor. The rest of the house has suspended
wooded floors. [Snip]
It should have a construction slab about 5 inches thick, topped with
about 80mm of aerated screed which is easier to 'polish' to give a
flat surface. You can (or should have been) able to dig a channel
through the screed without a massive amount of effort.
charles
2021-01-13 14:19:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by charles
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the
doors would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the
storage heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose
a huge amount of heat, although double glazed.
British Standard 5449 "(Central Heating) Forced circulation hot water
heating systems for domestic premises" recommends: "Wherever
practicable individual heat emitters (other than fan convectors)
should be located on outside walls preferably beneath windows to
offset the cooling effect: it is an advantage to choose an emitter of
such a length that it occupies the full width of the window."
My experience is that installers now prefer to put radiators on
internal walls ostensibly to reduce heat loss but I think it's
actually because it uses a lot less pipe.
When we moved into this house' over 40 years ago, we found the
radiators in the new extension were in the middle of two no-window
walls. Basically, nowhere to put furniture such as bookcase or piano. I
capped off one feed and extended the other to under the window. Had to
do it on the surface since the room has a concrete floor. The rest of
the house has suspended wooded floors. [Snip]
It should have a construction slab about 5 inches thick, topped with
about 80mm of aerated screed which is easier to 'polish' to give a flat
surface. You can (or should have been) able to dig a channel through the
screed without a massive amount of effort.
and then replace the stuck down floor covering
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
jon
2021-01-13 10:04:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge
amount of heat, although double glazed.
British Standard 5449 "(Central Heating) Forced circulation hot water
heating systems for domestic premises" recommends: "Wherever practicable
individual heat emitters (other than fan convectors) should be located
on outside walls preferably beneath windows to offset the cooling
effect: it is an advantage to choose an emitter of such a length that it
occupies the full width of the window."
My experience is that installers now prefer to put radiators on internal
walls ostensibly to reduce heat loss but I think it's actually because
it uses a lot less pipe. They also like radiators back-to-back on the
same wall for the same reason.
A housing association job in an occupied property will try to be the
quickest, easiest, (cheapest) least disruptive job possible.
Storage heaters shouldn't be on external walls because of their far
greater heat loss to the back of the heater.
In larger rooms I would push for two radiators where possible.
I had a grant-assisted heating system put in last year and the
installers hated me. They wanted a quick easy cheap install with pipes
going across the hall ceiling, only to find that all my cornicing has
cabling inside it. (Concrete floor and ceiling in a flat.) So they ended
up with long 22mm pipe runs round the entire perimeter of the building.
I regard this as useful background heat even if the radiators are off.
Also watch them installing them because they seem to default to minmum
spacing off the wall to look "neater". I made tnem turn the wall
brackets round to space radiators further off the external walls.
Overall the job wasn't what I'd have wanted if I was paying for it all
myself but a new gas supply, boiler and 6 rads for £1100 all in was a
bargain.
Owain
Thanks Owain, useful info there in your note.
Andrew
2021-01-13 13:55:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jon
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge
amount of heat, although double glazed.
British Standard 5449 "(Central Heating) Forced circulation hot water
heating systems for domestic premises" recommends: "Wherever practicable
individual heat emitters (other than fan convectors) should be located
on outside walls preferably beneath windows to offset the cooling
effect: it is an advantage to choose an emitter of such a length that it
occupies the full width of the window."
My experience is that installers now prefer to put radiators on internal
walls ostensibly to reduce heat loss but I think it's actually because
it uses a lot less pipe. They also like radiators back-to-back on the
same wall for the same reason.
A housing association job in an occupied property will try to be the
quickest, easiest, (cheapest) least disruptive job possible.
Storage heaters shouldn't be on external walls because of their far
greater heat loss to the back of the heater.
In larger rooms I would push for two radiators where possible.
I had a grant-assisted heating system put in last year and the
installers hated me. They wanted a quick easy cheap install with pipes
going across the hall ceiling, only to find that all my cornicing has
cabling inside it. (Concrete floor and ceiling in a flat.) So they ended
up with long 22mm pipe runs round the entire perimeter of the building.
I regard this as useful background heat even if the radiators are off.
Also watch them installing them because they seem to default to minmum
spacing off the wall to look "neater". I made tnem turn the wall
brackets round to space radiators further off the external walls.
Overall the job wasn't what I'd have wanted if I was paying for it all
myself but a new gas supply, boiler and 6 rads for £1100 all in was a
bargain.
Owain
Thanks Owain, useful info there in your note.
I don't believe it is possible to have gas installed, and entire
boiler+rads+controls+pipes for £1100. £11,000 very possibly and
half of that for providing gas to the property.
Owain Lastname
2021-01-13 16:37:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Owain Lastname
Overall the job wasn't what I'd have wanted if I was paying for it all
myself but a new gas supply, boiler and 6 rads for £1100 all in was a
bargain.
I don't believe it is possible to have gas installed, and entire
boiler+rads+controls+pipes for £1100. £11,000 very possibly and
half of that for providing gas to the property.
The cost of the gas supply was £1100, which was what I paid. £600 of that was scaffolding, and there was already gas to the flat below so the live pipe was outside on the wall already - which I checked before buying the flat. It would have been more if any trenching or opening the highway was involved.

Boiler+rads+controls+pipes were 100% grant funded by the Scottish Govt. Had I been a bit more canny with the grant application timing I might have got the supply paid for as well. So the cost *to me* was £1100.

I had to push a bit as they wanted to give me new storage heaters at first, as I was previously all-electric.

Owain
Martin Brown
2021-01-13 10:31:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
The main problem with this scheme is that turning electricity into heat
in a resistor is an incredibly *wasteful* way to do it. Heat pump is a
much better approach (although they have maintenance issues too much
more so than a gas or oil boiler).

The "green" initiative to make all heating electric is conceptually
flawed. We barely have enough electricity generating capacity as it is.
Turning high grade electricity directly into low grade thermal heat is
about the dumbest possible way of doing it. Any other means is
preferable in terms of overall end to end energy efficiency.

Add in a few more electric cars and we will be tipped over the edge -
particularly in winter when it is cloudy and the wind isn't blowing!
Post by Funny Lingus
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead
wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs
landing will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate short
runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact job.
Modern approach would be to put radiators on internal walls so that any
heat going through the wall stays in the house. Old style they tended to
put them under the windows to mask cold drafts coming down off the
windows. Decent double makes quite a difference here.
Post by Funny Lingus
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but
with gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking
down and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at
least a couple of dozen times now since 2019.
There is no reason why a correctly installed gas boiler should break
down so often. They need one annual maintenance if you play by the book
but I know plenty of people who never seem to bother. Likewise for oil
fired although that can be a bit tetchy if you get a gale with the wind
in the wrong direction.
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge
amount of heat, although double glazed.
You will notice some cold drafts coming down from the windows and making
the floor level colder. That was the old rationale for putting radiators
in front of the windows. The aluminium faced polystyrene foam sheets
placed behind the radiators prevent losses through the wall very well.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
jon
2021-01-13 10:58:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
The main problem with this scheme is that turning electricity into heat
in a resistor is an incredibly *wasteful* way to do it. Heat pump is a
much better approach (although they have maintenance issues too much
more so than a gas or oil boiler).
The "green" initiative to make all heating electric is conceptually
flawed. We barely have enough electricity generating capacity as it is.
Turning high grade electricity directly into low grade thermal heat is
about the dumbest possible way of doing it. Any other means is
preferable in terms of overall end to end energy efficiency.
Add in a few more electric cars and we will be tipped over the edge -
particularly in winter when it is cloudy and the wind isn't blowing!
Post by Funny Lingus
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead
wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs
landing will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate
short runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact
job.
Modern approach would be to put radiators on internal walls so that any
heat going through the wall stays in the house. Old style they tended to
put them under the windows to mask cold drafts coming down off the
windows. Decent double makes quite a difference here.
Post by Funny Lingus
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but
with gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking
down and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at
least a couple of dozen times now since 2019.
There is no reason why a correctly installed gas boiler should break
down so often. They need one annual maintenance if you play by the book
but I know plenty of people who never seem to bother. Likewise for oil
fired although that can be a bit tetchy if you get a gale with the wind
in the wrong direction.
Post by Funny Lingus
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge
amount of heat, although double glazed.
You will notice some cold drafts coming down from the windows and making
the floor level colder. That was the old rationale for putting radiators
in front of the windows. The aluminium faced polystyrene foam sheets
placed behind the radiators prevent losses through the wall very well.
I think a very high capacity Lithium battery would add to the cost/
effectiveness so it could be charged off peak and the main storage
radiator turned on later in the day.
Martin Brown
2021-01-13 11:20:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jon
I think a very high capacity Lithium battery would add to the cost/
effectiveness so it could be charged off peak and the main storage
radiator turned on later in the day.
It would also more than double the installation costs and in all
probability have a working life in regular use of at most a decade.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55337192

Thermal store is the least bad option if you must do it this way.

UK's big problem right now is not enough electricity generating capacity
in winter going forwards. It will only take a calm blocking high and the
most of Europe becalmed and we will be having electricity rationing.

Solar is pathetic on grey winters days with the sun barely above the
horizon even if the clouds do part for an hour or so.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Owain Lastname
2021-01-13 11:34:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Funny Lingus
This seems to be initiated by a government directive to make home
heating more efficient by using a heat pipe.
Heat pipe (district heating or heat network) or heat pump? They're very different.

If your 'electric boiler' is going to be on peak rate electricity it may be 'greener' ie use less electricity overall, but it will cost you 3x the price of storage heaters to run and 5x the price of a mains gas boiler.

Some housing associations (or their tenants) have been bitten badly by ill-advised 'eco' heating schemes that are lucrative for the scheme developers.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/problems-with-your-energy-supply/if-your-home-is-on-a-heat-network/

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/feb/05/district-heating-fuel-bill-regulation

Green heating system accused of causing 'fuel poverty'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39736010

A housing association is investigating tenants’ high energy bills after becoming the latest to be hit by problems with a particular make of eco-friendly heat pump.
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/news/another-landlord-hit-by-heat-pump-problems-35637

Families in social housing have said their children have to share baths and wear coats inside due to problems with an eco-friendly heating system.
People living in Orwell Housing homes in Ipswich and Tunstall, Suffolk, said the installed air-source heat pump "does not work" and is "expensive".
The system is designed to take heat from the air and boost it to a higher temperature by using electricity.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-42649611
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2018/01/15/orwell-housing-residents-say-eco-friendly-heating-too-expensive/


Owain
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-13 12:16:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
If your 'electric boiler' is going to be on peak rate electricity it may > be 'greener' ie use less electricity overall, but it will cost you 3x
the price of storage heaters to run and 5x the price of a mains gas
boiler.
Or not. I pay 10.566 p/unit 24/7 on an E7 tariff. That's only about
2x mains gas.
Some housing associations (or their tenants) have been bitten badly by
ill-advised 'eco' heating schemes that are lucrative for the scheme
developers.
+1

What the OP has posted sets off that alarm bell with me as well.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Andrew
2021-01-13 14:10:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
If your 'electric boiler' is going to be on peak rate electricity it may > be 'greener' ie use less electricity overall, but it will cost you 3x
the price of storage heaters to run and 5x the price of a mains gas
boiler.
Or not. I pay 10.566 p/unit 24/7 on an E7 tariff. That's only about
2x mains gas.
As more and more coal and nuclear plants close, the availability of
'unwanted' off peak power diminishes.

I suspect the only suitable replacement in future will the
OctopusAgile tarriff that gives you advance notice of what your
hourly rate will be so you can plan your usage.

One of the Tims seems to have this tarriff. I would be interested
to know what sort of hourly rate he was paying through the recent
cold snap. The Octopus website only gives historical data up to
about 6 months ago.
Post by Dave Liquorice
Some housing associations (or their tenants) have been bitten badly by
ill-advised 'eco' heating schemes that are lucrative for the scheme
developers.
+1
What the OP has posted sets off that alarm bell with me as well.
++1
Theo
2021-01-13 15:02:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
As more and more coal and nuclear plants close, the availability of
'unwanted' off peak power diminishes.
Indeed, which is why storage heaters aren't an obvious win in the current
situation, and not necessarily a great plan for the future.
Post by Andrew
I suspect the only suitable replacement in future will the
OctopusAgile tarriff that gives you advance notice of what your
hourly rate will be so you can plan your usage.
One of the Tims seems to have this tarriff. I would be interested
to know what sort of hourly rate he was paying through the recent
cold snap. The Octopus website only gives historical data up to
about 6 months ago.
https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile/
gives 18 months worth of data.

It appears the last couple of weeks have been hitting the 35p/unit price
cap for several hours in the morning, as well as the evening peak. It's
been about 12p during the night.

Theo
alan_m
2021-01-13 17:02:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
If your 'electric boiler' is going to be on peak rate electricity it may > be 'greener' ie use less electricity overall, but it will cost you 3x
the price of storage heaters to run and 5x the price of a mains gas
boiler.
Or not. I pay 10.566 p/unit 24/7 on an E7 tariff. That's only about
2x mains gas.
My gas is 2.3p/kWh so your E7 is 4x the price of gas
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Theo
2021-01-13 11:36:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years and
now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot water
system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to make home
heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency gain would
obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather than direct
electricity.
Do you have mains gas?

What is the state of your insulation?
- cavity walls? insulated?
- loft insulation? How thick?
- double glazing?
- draught proofing?
- air bricks?

ASHP can be 2-4x as efficient as pure electric heat so, while there are
losses in a wet system, they are likely to be overridden by the heat pump
efficiency. On the other hand, if your house is poorly insulated the heat
pump may not be able to keep up (unless you fit a huge one, which is
costly).

(ASHP can struggle in freezing weather, but it's hard not to beat pure
electric heat)
Post by Funny Lingus
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead wall
space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs landing
will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate short runs of
pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact job.
It depends on the heating system as to the flow temperature. I'd expect
that putting a radiator behind a door is going to be less effective if you
leave the door open most of the time. Obviously it'll put heat into the
room eventually (nowhere else for it to go), but spend a while heating up
the door first.
Post by Funny Lingus
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but with
gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking down and
the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at least a couple
of dozen times now since 2019.
That sounds like a regular wet system with a gas boiler, as used by millions
of people. They don't keep breaking down, which suggests some problem with
the (quality of the) installation. Was that fitted by the same HA?

Theo
F***@home.com
2021-01-13 13:23:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
Do you have mains gas? No mains gas in village
What is the state of your insulation?
- cavity walls? insulated? yes
- loft insulation? How thick? 12"
- double glazing? yes
- draught proofing? some internal doors
- air bricks? Bathroom and kitchen
ASHP can be 2-4x as efficient as pure electric heat so, while there are
losses in a wet system, they are likely to be overridden by the heat
pump efficiency. On the other hand, if your house is poorly insulated
the heat pump may not be able to keep up (unless you fit a huge one,
which is costly).
(ASHP can struggle in freezing weather, but it's hard not to beat pure
electric heat)
Post by Funny Lingus
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead
wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs
landing will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate
short runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact
job.
It depends on the heating system as to the flow temperature. I'd expect
that putting a radiator behind a door is going to be less effective if
you leave the door open most of the time. Obviously it'll put heat into
the room eventually (nowhere else for it to go), but spend a while
heating up the door first.
Post by Funny Lingus
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but
with gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking
down and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at
least a couple of dozen times now since 2019.
That sounds like a regular wet system with a gas boiler, as used by
millions of people. They don't keep breaking down, which suggests some
problem with the (quality of the) installation. Was that fitted by the
same HA?
Theo
Theo
2021-01-13 14:16:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
Do you have mains gas? No mains gas in village
What is the state of your insulation?
- cavity walls? insulated? yes
- loft insulation? How thick? 12"
- double glazing? yes
- draught proofing? some internal doors
- air bricks? Bathroom and kitchen
It would obviously depend on a survey of exactly the situation, but that
looks a reasonable starting point for an air source heap pump.

Running costs should be a lot lower than electric storage heaters.
Installation costs would be high, but if someone else is funding that...
It would be fairly invasive (in terms of installing pipes, radiators, etc)
but then so would any wet heating system (eg oil needing a tank installing
as well).

Would underfloor heating be feasible to install?
That would save on having big radiators (the bigger the radiators the more
efficient it is).

Will the HA handle maintenance of the system, or is that up to you?

Theo
Andrew
2021-01-13 14:12:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years and
now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot water
system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to make home
heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency gain would
obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather than direct
electricity.
Do you have mains gas?
What is the state of your insulation?
- cavity walls? insulated?
- loft insulation? How thick?
- double glazing?
- draught proofing?
- air bricks?
ASHP can be 2-4x as efficient as pure electric heat so, while there are
losses in a wet system, they are likely to be overridden by the heat pump
efficiency. On the other hand, if your house is poorly insulated the heat
pump may not be able to keep up (unless you fit a huge one, which is
costly).
(ASHP can struggle in freezing weather, but it's hard not to beat pure
electric heat)
Post by Funny Lingus
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead wall
space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs landing
will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate short runs of
pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact job.
It depends on the heating system as to the flow temperature. I'd expect
that putting a radiator behind a door is going to be less effective if you
leave the door open most of the time. Obviously it'll put heat into the
room eventually (nowhere else for it to go), but spend a while heating up
the door first.
Post by Funny Lingus
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but with
gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking down and
the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at least a couple
of dozen times now since 2019.
That sounds like a regular wet system with a gas boiler, as used by millions
of people. They don't keep breaking down, which suggests some problem with
the (quality of the) installation. Was that fitted by the same HA?
Theo
Does someone in the HA get kickbacks from the installer who quoted
far more than he would get away with where a private customer is
concerned ?
Dave Liquorice
2021-01-13 12:11:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
... now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe.
What do you mean by "heat pipe"? Do you mean some form of heat pump
or a massive central communal boiler feeding hot water to individual
properties?
Any efficiency gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using
water, rather than direct electricity.
Old, and at > 17 years, yours are "old", storeage heaters aren't
particulary good, they leak to much heat during the day and can't
cope with a sudden cold snap.

A wet system heated by electricity as a replacement does seem a bit
cock eyed. Though remember any "lost" heat from the pipework/boiler
is still within the property.
The upstairs landing will be housing the electric boiler and would
facililitate short runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner,
more compact job.
Is that a boiler just for domestic hatowater or a heating boiler?
Space heating requires a lot of power, you have storeage heaters
already so your (E7?) supply should be up to it. But you'll need a
preety large tank of water to store enough heat to heat the place
sensibly through the day. Unless the system forces you to use
electricity through the day for space heating. That is likely to be
expensive(*).

I'd have thought that just replacing the old storeage heaters with
modern "high heat rention" ones would be a far better option. They
aren't cheap though, I suspect the proposed wet system would be
cheaper...

(*) Depending on your E7 tarrif. Just switched our E7 to one that
charges the same per unit day or night. The bill will go up but only
inline with normal increases. The night unit price has gone up and
the day unit down. I'm paying less per unit on the E7 supply than I
am for the ordinary supply. 10.566 p/unit v 14.024 p/unit (+ 5% VAT).
--
Cheers
Dave.
Andrew
2021-01-13 14:14:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
(*) Depending on your E7 tarrif. Just switched our E7 to one that
charges the same per unit day or night. The bill will go up but only
inline with normal increases. The night unit price has gone up and
the day unit down. I'm paying less per unit on the E7 supply than I
am for the ordinary supply. 10.566 p/unit v 14.024 p/unit (+ 5% VAT).
Which company/tariff ?
Andrew
2021-01-13 13:44:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is all dead
wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The upstairs
landing will be housing the electric boiler and would facililitate short
runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner, more compact job.
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but
with gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps breaking
down and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the boiler, at
least a couple of dozen times now since 2019.
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors
would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage
heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge
amount of heat, although double glazed.
Best regards
You should tell the housing association to spend the money on better
insulation and more modern storage heaters, which is *FAR* more cost
effective.

Fitting a new wet radiator system, heated by electricity to an existing
(not perticularly new) property could only be dreamed up by a
completely clueless greenie numpty. An utterly expensive folly, only
made possible by the fact that they are spending other peoples taxes.
Jack Harry Teesdale
2021-01-13 14:26:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Funny Lingus
I have lived alone in a three bedroomed association house for 17 years
and now there is a plan to replace all the storage heaters with a hot
water system. This seems to be initiated by a government directive to
make home heating more efficient by using a heat pipe. Any efficiency
gain would obviously be lost by transmitting heat using water, rather
than direct electricity.
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted
behind inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room, this is
all dead wall space and doesn't interfere with existing fitments. The
upstairs landing will be housing the electric boiler and would
facililitate short runs of pipework to the bedrooms, making a cleaner,
more compact job.
My wife, who lives in the next village has had such a conversion, but
with gas as the heat source instead of electricity. This keeps
breaking down and the (engineer) has to come out to fiddle with the
boiler, at least a couple of dozen times now since 2019.
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the
doors would have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the
storage heaters are under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a
huge amount of heat, although double glazed.
Best regards
You should tell the housing association to spend the money on better
insulation and more modern storage heaters, which is *FAR* more cost
effective.
Fitting a new wet radiator system, heated by electricity to an existing
(not perticularly new) property could only be dreamed up by a
completely clueless greenie numpty. An utterly expensive folly, only
made possible by the fact that they are spending other peoples taxes.
+1

Replacing the existing storage heaters with modern ones in living rooms
and fitting panel radiators in bedrooms is the optimum solution and
should be the cheapest to install as the circuits are already in place.
williamwright
2021-01-13 18:53:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Funny Lingus
I am proposing that the installation of new radiators are fitted behind
inward opening doors in the bedrooms and living room,
The radiators will probably prevent the doors opening fully.

Bill
Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
2021-01-13 21:25:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Question: Does the team think that putting the heaters behind the doors would
have any detrimental effect on heat distribution. All the storage heaters are
under windows at the moment, so immediately lose a huge amount of heat,
although double glazed.
Heat sources under windows in the conventional place to have them,
because it counteracts the cold draft resulting from cooled air falling
down a window. Rooms with two windows will likely have two radiators,
for the same reason. Blown air heating always has the air outlets under
windows.

Heating is not nearly as effective, if radiators are mounted at other
locations in a room.
S Viemeister
2021-01-13 21:58:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 13/01/2021 21:25, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
<snip>
Post by Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
Blown air heating always has the air outlets under
windows.
Always? My parents' house had hot air heat, and not _one_ of the
outlets/vents was under a window. They were all on inside walls, except
for a couple which were set into the floor.
Tim Lamb
2021-01-14 09:11:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by S Viemeister
<snip>
Blown air heating always has the air outlets under windows.
Always? My parents' house had hot air heat, and not _one_ of the
outlets/vents was under a window. They were all on inside walls, except
for a couple which were set into the floor.
More likely convenience of ducting from the heat source. My wife had a
'60's built flat which had a central *off peak* storage bank and
radiating ceiling ducts to the nearest corner of the room to be heated.
When we converted to a gas boiler, the radiators were put under the
windows.
--
Tim Lamb
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