Discussion:
Landline conversion to digital
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Jack Harry Teesdale
2021-09-13 13:03:16 UTC
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My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the broadband
router.

As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet
circuit to maintain the connection to these other outlets?
Theo
2021-09-13 13:16:02 UTC
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Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet
circuit to maintain the connection to these other outlets?
Feeding your extensions is called Voice Re-injection and there some notes on
DIYing this here:
https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

I believe there should be a faceplate on the market to facilitate that, but
I haven't seen one listed.

Theo
Andy Burns
2021-09-13 13:43:48 UTC
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Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the broadband
router.
who is the provider?

are you actually getting FTTP at the point of changeover?

Have you already got a router with a phone socket on it, or are they
going to provide one?
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet
circuit to maintain the connection to these other outlets?
Yes you can do that, depends whether your extensions plug into the front
of your master socket, or are punched down on to back of the removable
faceplate?
Jack Harry Teesdale
2021-09-13 14:43:41 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
who is the provider?
BT
Post by Andy Burns
are you actually getting FTTP at the point of changeover?
No it is via FTTC which i have already, the impression i have is that
this is an area wide conversion.
Post by Andy Burns
Have you already got a router with a phone socket on it
Yes

I'm not sure how the extensions are connected to the incoming line as i
have never been able to find a 'master socket'. As it is a pre yr 2000
new build it may only be a single outlet faceplate.

The phones and broadband have worked OK so far just being plugged in to
any of the extension points.
Robin
2021-09-13 13:50:06 UTC
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Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the broadband
router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet
circuit to maintain the connection to these other outlets?
I thought ISPs were supposed (required by Openreach?) to provide
(offer?) a new faceplate for your master socket when they switched
someone to VOIP so you can feed into it from your router. I can't see
you've anything to lose from asking your supplier.

More at e.g.
<https://www.draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lines-pt2?highlight=WzExMl0=>
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Mark Carver
2021-09-13 14:07:08 UTC
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Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
Presumably all these new fangled routers with a phone port will have
enough 'umph' (75 volts at 17 Hz ?) to produce a REN of 4 ?
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-13 14:42:57 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
Presumably all these new fangled routers with a phone port will have
enough 'umph' (75 volts at 17 Hz ?) to produce a REN of 4 ?
I think so, yes.
--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.
charles
2021-09-13 14:34:03 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
Presumably all these new fangled routers with a phone port will have
enough 'umph' (75 volts at 17 Hz ?) to produce a REN of 4 ?
I ssupect they have forgotten about those old fashioned phones ;-(
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Rod Speed
2021-09-13 21:10:52 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
Presumably all these new fangled routers with a phone port will have
enough 'umph' (75 volts at 17 Hz ?) to produce a REN of 4 ?
REN has long since stopped mattering a damn.
Peeler
2021-09-13 21:23:52 UTC
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2021 07:10:52 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <***@85.214.115.223>
tim...
2021-09-14 10:00:33 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the broadband
router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet
circuit to maintain the connection to these other outlets?
Presumably all these new fangled routers with a phone port will have
enough 'umph' (75 volts at 17 Hz ?) to produce a REN of 4 ?
as they will be mains, not line, powered, I don't see a technical problem
here (though there may be a marketing one)
Paul
2021-09-14 11:19:05 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
Presumably all these new fangled routers with a phone port will have
enough 'umph' (75 volts at 17 Hz ?) to produce a REN of 4 ?
as they will be mains, not line, powered, I don't see a technical
problem here (though there may be a marketing one)
Mine is rated at 3RENs.

It also has some sort of test it can carry out,
to determine the loading is too high.

And mine is separate from the router. It even
has a PDF user manual.

During my cutover, I was given a temporary phone
number, before the POTS number was "pulled" into
the VOIP system. (This is a courtesy from the VOIP
operator.) This temporary phone number was
available for a period of two weeks. And this
two week grace period, gives you time to phone
from your POTS phone, to a temporary phone
connected to your VOIP port.

Your setup during the two week grace period...

Legacy POTS New VOIP with temp number
| |
O-o O-o <=== cheap analog phone used
to test line quality

Holding the phone receivers on either side
of your head, you can "hear" the line latency

You can examine line quality, versus one of the
eight flavors of voice encoding. If there is a
problem with the hardware, you'll need every bit
of that two weeks, to resolve it, and ensure the
hardware is proven before pull.

For example, it took me a while to resolve my
"phone does not hang up" problem. When I would
hang up the cheap analog phone on my end, the
stupid VOIP thing did not drop the connection. This
can tie up the phone of the person you had just
finished talking to. It took me a bit of time, to
figure out how to stop that from happening (it's
just a setting in the config). The config can be
daunting, if you've ever looked at one, and if the
manual isn't very good.

On the "pull" day, the test phone number will
stop working, and you'll then set the details
of the POTS pull, into the box (as necessary).
Phone companies normally do database updates
at midnight, so that could be when your
phone number cuts over. The "precise" behavior
is for billing purposes.

Once you're on VOIP of course, you're fuxored :-)
Now you no longer have five nines reliability
in a phone system. Just about any digital burp
or fart could knock out the VOIP, and you'd
never know until you needed it. The nearest
phone box, could be quite far away (I've tested
the separate message recorder connected to
mine, from the grocery store payphone).

Some routers provided by an ISP and having VOIP
on them, they have a battery pack (optional, or,
provided). But this only lasts for four hours
or so, and is hardly a panacea. You could drive
the VOIP wall adapter from a UPS, if you expected more
of it. And depending on the tech, the box driving
the digital connection to your house might not have
power during a failure anyway. For example, mine
at the street corner, is line powered, and has a
power meter for taking meter readings on it.
So the phone company pays the power company for
the power used. They don't try to run the box
off -48V from the CO or anything. If there's
a pair in the fiber optic cable, it's not intended
for powering giant pieces of equipment. It could be
something as simple as a VF Order Wire (tech connects
his phone to it). Of course, techs today, contact
the CO using their cellphone, and order wires would
not be a priority today. (Available on equipment,
but not used.)

Even if you have a battery on your VOIP, it would
only work for the old ADSL, where there is no box
on the street corner to lose power. If the CO drives
a line direct to your house, as used to happen with
the original ADSL, then that battery in the VOIP box
makes sense. But with modern architectures, the box
driving your house is line powered, and it may not be
practical for them to put 48 hours of battery on it.
For most users, it just "drops like a rock" and no
dial tone. If you're having a heart attack and need
to dial out... good luck.

When the cable TV internet went out due to a fire
at the electrical substation, it took 12-24 hours
before the cable TV provider connected portable
generators to their street corner box. Then the phone
would come back. There was a Honda generator next
to the pedestal, and a guy would drive up in a
truck every once in a while and check the petrol
on it. The guy really seemed to be enjoying himself.
In a classy neighbourhood, such a portable generator
would be stolen as soon as the truck drove away.

Paul
SH
2021-09-13 14:08:50 UTC
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Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the broadband
router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet
circuit to maintain the connection to these other outlets?
I have optical fibre to the home.

The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in then
then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a telephone
port on it.

I use a RJ11 to RJ45 adapter to then connect to my patch panel in the
loft where 5 telephone lines are patched in. Each of these lines then
feeds a secondary telephone socket into which a fax and 4 voice
telephones are plugged into. One of these phones is also an answering
machine.

If you have a lot more phones than I, then you may need a REN booster.
charles
2021-09-13 15:34:07 UTC
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Post by SH
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
I have optical fibre to the home.
The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in then
then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a telephone
port on it.
In which case, the lead that goes into my current OpenReach box should fit?

The lead feeds my 4 extension PAX
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
SH
2021-09-13 15:40:12 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by SH
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
I have optical fibre to the home.
The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in then
then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a telephone
port on it.
In which case, the lead that goes into my current OpenReach box should fit?
The lead feeds my 4 extension PAX
Do you have one of these then?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=openreach+router&atb=v257-1&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ispreview.co.uk%2Ftalk%2Fattachments%2Four-router-jpg.218%2F
Andy Burns
2021-09-13 15:49:00 UTC
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Post by SH
Do you have one of these then?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=openreach+router&atb=v257-1&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ispreview.co.uk%2Ftalk%2Fattachments%2Four-router-jpg.218%2F
That version (with the ONT and BBU inside another case) is old-hat and
no longer supplied.
charles
2021-09-13 16:01:47 UTC
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Post by SH
Post by charles
Post by SH
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
I have optical fibre to the home.
The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in then
then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a
telephone port on it.
In which case, the lead that goes into my current OpenReach box should fit?
The lead feeds my 4 extension PAX
Do you have one of these then?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=openreach+router&atb=v257-1&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ispreview.co.uk%2Ftalk%2Fattachments%2Four-router-jpg.218%2F
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'. The upper outlet feeds my modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Mark Carver
2021-09-13 16:13:55 UTC
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Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'. The upper outlet feeds my modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
charles
2021-09-13 16:27:07 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'. The upper outlet feeds my modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
My supplier is NOT BT. Openreach are installing a 2 village wide FTTP
scheme, for which I have signed up. The Parish Council have given the date.
And, of course we lose our POTS service in 4 years time (I think that's
national),
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Mark Carver
2021-09-13 16:42:23 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'. The upper outlet feeds my modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
My supplier is NOT BT. Openreach are installing a 2 village wide FTTP
scheme, for which I have signed up. The Parish Council have given the date.
And, of course we lose our POTS service in 4 years time (I think that's
national),
Ah, I see. Well, once you're on FTTP, POTs (in its form of analogue
audio over copper into your house)  will go for you at that point too.
As I understand it those of us still on FTTC by the end of 2025 will
lose the POTs connection, but our internet will continue over the copper
wire into our homes.
What will go at the end of 2025 are the copper trunks between the
exchange and the FTTC cabinets (nationally), so the phone service will
be the same VoIP style service you'll be getting from that point.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-13 17:40:02 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'.  The upper outlet feeds my
modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
My supplier is NOT BT. Openreach are installing a 2 village wide FTTP
scheme, for which I have signed up. The Parish Council have given the date.
And, of course we lose our POTS service in 4 years time (I think that's
national),
Ah, I see. Well, once you're on FTTP, POTs (in its form of analogue
audio over copper into your house)  will go for you at that point too.
It didnt for me.
Post by Mark Carver
As I understand it those of us still on FTTC by the end of 2025 will
lose the POTs connection, but our internet will continue over the copper
wire into our homes.
What will go at the end of 2025 are the copper trunks between the
exchange and the FTTC cabinets (nationally), so the phone service will
be the same VoIP style service you'll be getting from that point.
Yes.
--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal
John Rumm
2021-09-14 01:17:18 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'.  The upper outlet feeds my
modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
My supplier is NOT BT. Openreach are installing a 2 village wide FTTP
scheme, for which I have signed up. The Parish Council have given the date.
And, of course we lose our POTS service in 4 years time (I think that's
national),
Ah, I see. Well, once you're on FTTP, POTs (in its form of analogue
audio over copper into your house)  will go for you at that point too.
It didnt for me.
Same here, FTTP was an addition unconnected (either logically,
contractually, or physically) to the POTS lines.

(interestingly around here, the fibre they ran from the poles to the
premises also included a copper pair - although that was not made off to
anything, and I got the impression there was no intention to make use of
it in future).

At this point, you can still have analogue voice on the local loop since
the cabinet also has analogue back-haul. Once that goes, a FTTC offering
will become a SOGEA one with no analogue voice capability.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 07:55:40 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
At this point, you can still have analogue voice on the local loop
since the cabinet also has analogue back-haul. Once that goes, a FTTC
offering will become a SOGEA one with no analogue voice capability.
Do you mean the FTTP offering  (rather than FTTC) ?

In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 08:01:52 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by John Rumm
At this point, you can still have analogue voice on the local loop
since the cabinet also has analogue back-haul. Once that goes, a FTTC
offering will become a SOGEA one with no analogue voice capability.
Do you mean the FTTP offering  (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
That is the *option* I was offered, and took.
I think that there might have been a number change otherwise.
--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.
Theo
2021-09-14 08:15:15 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Do you mean the FTTP offering  (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
I believe that was the initial way they did it. Now the copper is
decommissioned when fibre is installed - I understand they're going back and
retroactively disabling the copper from the installs they did where it's
still active.

One purpose of retaining the copper was it was still possible to order
classical ADSL on it. That somewhat made sense for those who didn't want to
pay for an FTTP connection, but nowadays they're removing ADSL kit from
exchanges and moving towards FTTC+FTTP so keeping a few DSLAMs is an
impediment to that process. And I believe there's been more progress
towards cheaper FTTP tariffs for those who don't need more bandwidth.
(ie FTTP is a delivery mechanism, not a speed upgrade)

Theo
charles
2021-09-14 08:56:41 UTC
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Post by Theo
Do you mean the FTTP offering (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
I believe that was the initial way they did it. Now the copper is
decommissioned when fibre is installed - I understand they're going back
and retroactively disabling the copper from the installs they did where
it's still active.
One purpose of retaining the copper was it was still possible to order
classical ADSL on it. That somewhat made sense for those who didn't want
to pay for an FTTP connection, but nowadays they're removing ADSL kit
from exchanges and moving towards FTTC+FTTP so keeping a few DSLAMs is an
impediment to that process. And I believe there's been more progress
towards cheaper FTTP tariffs for those who don't need more bandwidth. (ie
FTTP is a delivery mechanism, not a speed upgrade)
If you live more than a few hundred yards from a cabinet - it is definately
a speed upgrade.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 16:35:11 UTC
Reply
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Post by charles
Post by Theo
Do you mean the FTTP offering (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
I believe that was the initial way they did it. Now the copper is
decommissioned when fibre is installed - I understand they're going back
and retroactively disabling the copper from the installs they did where
it's still active.
One purpose of retaining the copper was it was still possible to order
classical ADSL on it. That somewhat made sense for those who didn't want
to pay for an FTTP connection, but nowadays they're removing ADSL kit
from exchanges and moving towards FTTC+FTTP so keeping a few DSLAMs is an
impediment to that process. And I believe there's been more progress
towards cheaper FTTP tariffs for those who don't need more bandwidth. (ie
FTTP is a delivery mechanism, not a speed upgrade)
If you live more than a few hundred yards from a cabinet - it is definately
a speed upgrade.
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.

I think that corresponds to one time slot in the fibre time division
multiplex.
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
charles
2021-09-14 16:54:46 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Theo
Do you mean the FTTP offering (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
I believe that was the initial way they did it. Now the copper is
decommissioned when fibre is installed - I understand they're going
back and retroactively disabling the copper from the installs they did
where it's still active.
One purpose of retaining the copper was it was still possible to order
classical ADSL on it. That somewhat made sense for those who didn't
want to pay for an FTTP connection, but nowadays they're removing ADSL
kit from exchanges and moving towards FTTC+FTTP so keeping a few
DSLAMs is an impediment to that process. And I believe there's been
more progress towards cheaper FTTP tariffs for those who don't need
more bandwidth. (ie FTTP is a delivery mechanism, not a speed upgrade)
If you live more than a few hundred yards from a cabinet - it is
definately a speed upgrade.
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.
TUp to 40Mbps .There's maximum advertised speed and real speed.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 17:28:09 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Theo
Do you mean the FTTP offering (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
I believe that was the initial way they did it. Now the copper is
decommissioned when fibre is installed - I understand they're going
back and retroactively disabling the copper from the installs they did
where it's still active.
One purpose of retaining the copper was it was still possible to order
classical ADSL on it. That somewhat made sense for those who didn't
want to pay for an FTTP connection, but nowadays they're removing ADSL
kit from exchanges and moving towards FTTC+FTTP so keeping a few
DSLAMs is an impediment to that process. And I believe there's been
more progress towards cheaper FTTP tariffs for those who don't need
more bandwidth. (ie FTTP is a delivery mechanism, not a speed upgrade)
If you live more than a few hundred yards from a cabinet - it is
definately a speed upgrade.
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.
TUp to 40Mbps .There's maximum advertised speed and real speed.
The real speed is somewhere between 34 and 40Mpbs according to speed
checkers.

Right now with other stuff on the network the speed checker says
34/10.4 Mbps

I get more than my rated 10Mbps upstream tho - anyway its enough for
me to be sitting in a hospital watching TV on my home server via it -
and the hospital wifi.

Remember that there is no contention on the local loop. I have my own
private backhaul channel back to the regional exchange - and what
happens between there and my ISP is down to my ISP. That's the beauty of
FTTP - there is no contention really until you get to your ISPs backhail
from the regional exchange

Pay a bit more, get a bit more.

I've seen over 4M BYTES/S on downloads of e.g. updates
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra
John Rumm
2021-09-15 01:41:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Theo
Post by Mark Carver
Do you mean the FTTP offering  (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
I believe that was the initial way they did it. Now the copper is
decommissioned when fibre is installed - I understand they're going
back and retroactively disabling the copper from the installs they did
where it's still active.
One purpose of retaining the copper was it was still possible to order
classical ADSL on it.  That somewhat made sense for those who didn't
want to pay for an FTTP connection, but nowadays they're removing ADSL
kit from exchanges and moving towards FTTC+FTTP so keeping a few
DSLAMs is an impediment to that process.  And I believe there's been
more progress towards cheaper FTTP tariffs for those who don't need
more bandwidth. (ie FTTP is a delivery mechanism, not a speed upgrade)
If you live more than a few hundred yards from a cabinet - it is
definately a speed upgrade.
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.
TUp to 40Mbps .There's maximum advertised speed and real speed.
The real speed is somewhere between 34 and 40Mpbs according to speed
checkers.
Right now with other stuff on the network the speed checker says
34/10.4 Mbps
 I get more than my rated 10Mbps upstream tho - anyway its enough for
me to be sitting in a hospital watching TV on my home server via it -
and the hospital wifi.
I was getting pretty much bang on the advertised speed with IDNet on
their "ultrafast" 330/50 package... then they gave me a free upgrade to
550/75, and now I can't get full speed because my router has run out of
puff!

(it's maximum throughput the ethernet WAN connection is around 400Mbps).
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Pay a bit more, get a bit more.
Indeed.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Andy Burns
2021-09-14 17:14:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.
I think that corresponds to one time slot in the fibre time division
multiplex.
Yes, no slower service is offered, odd step sizes though if the
correspond to multiple timeslots?

<https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDetails.do?data=CGhm4h3lTUYC3ALXzxLGrqeDXJ5AMk7IqbbqwIROuRGrmMllOOG7b%2F12AmPFLBERe6YShZ82RgLOGLsH2e9%2Bmw%3D%3D>
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:30:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.
I think that corresponds to one time slot in the fibre time division
multiplex.
Yes, no slower service is offered, odd step sizes though if the
correspond to multiple timeslots?
<https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDetails.do?data=CGhm4h3lTUYC3ALXzxLGrqeDXJ5AMk7IqbbqwIROuRGrmMllOOG7b%2F12AmPFLBERe6YShZ82RgLOGLsH2e9%2Bmw%3D%3D>
IDnet offer 40 and 80 Mbps,then 160Mbps, 550Mbps and 1Gbps

I don't see why these would not reflect the underlying openreach
wholesale product

BT Retail Sky Talk Talk Virgin Vodafone
40/10 Fibre Essential Faster Fibre Superfast 1
55/10 Fibre 1 M50
80/20 Fibre 2 Superfast Superfast Fibre Superfast 2
110/15 Full Fibre 100 M100 Gigafast 100
160/30 Fibre 100 Ultrafast 1 Faster 150 Fibre
220/20 M200 Gigafast 200
330/50 Fibre 250 / Full Fibre 300 Ultrafast 2
550/75 Future Fibre M500 Gigafast 500
1000/115 Full Fibre 900 Ultra Fibre Optic Gig 1 Gigafast 900

Mmm.

That makes it look as if 55Mbps is the timeslot.
and 40 is a crippled 55...
--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."
SH
2021-09-15 08:49:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andy Burns
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.
I think that corresponds to one time slot in the fibre time division
multiplex.
Yes, no slower service is offered, odd step sizes though if the
correspond to multiple timeslots?
<https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDetails.do?data=CGhm4h3lTUYC3ALXzxLGrqeDXJ5AMk7IqbbqwIROuRGrmMllOOG7b%2F12AmPFLBERe6YShZ82RgLOGLsH2e9%2Bmw%3D%3D>
IDnet offer 40 and 80 Mbps,then 160Mbps, 550Mbps and 1Gbps
I don't see why these would not reflect the underlying openreach
wholesale product
    BT Retail    Sky    Talk Talk    Virgin    Vodafone
40/10    Fibre Essential        Faster Fibre        Superfast 1
55/10    Fibre 1            M50
80/20    Fibre 2          Superfast    Superfast Fibre        Superfast 2
110/15    Full Fibre 100    M100    Gigafast 100
160/30    Fibre 100    Ultrafast 1    Faster 150 Fibre
220/20            M200    Gigafast 200
330/50    Fibre 250 / Full Fibre 300    Ultrafast 2
550/75    Future Fibre    M500    Gigafast 500
1000/115 Full Fibre 900        Ultra Fibre Optic    Gig 1    Gigafast 900
Mmm.
That makes it look as if 55Mbps is the timeslot.
and 40 is a crippled 55...
not strictly correct....
Post by The Natural Philosopher
100/100 Gigafast 100
200/200 Gigafast 200
500/500 Gigafast 500
900/900 Gigafast 900
S.
Andy Burns
2021-09-15 08:52:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SH
Post by The Natural Philosopher
That makes it look as if 55Mbps is the timeslot.
and 40 is a crippled 55...
not strictly correct....
Post by The Natural Philosopher
100/100    Gigafast 100
200/200    Gigafast 200
500/500    Gigafast 500
900/900    Gigafast 900
Presumably Vodafone use their own fibre, rather than using openreach's
GPON infrastructure?
SH
2021-09-15 08:59:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by SH
Post by The Natural Philosopher
That makes it look as if 55Mbps is the timeslot.
and 40 is a crippled 55...
not strictly correct....
 > 100/100    Gigafast 100
 > 200/200    Gigafast 200
 > 500/500    Gigafast 500
 > 900/900    Gigafast 900
Presumably Vodafone use their own fibre, rather than using openreach's
GPON infrastructure?
correct....

And Virginmedia also use their own infrastructure....
SH
2021-09-15 08:55:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Andy Burns
Post by The Natural Philosopher
The *minimum* package I could get was 40Mbps.
I think that corresponds to one time slot in the fibre time division
multiplex.
Yes, no slower service is offered, odd step sizes though if the
correspond to multiple timeslots?
<https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDetails.do?data=CGhm4h3lTUYC3ALXzxLGrqeDXJ5AMk7IqbbqwIROuRGrmMllOOG7b%2F12AmPFLBERe6YShZ82RgLOGLsH2e9%2Bmw%3D%3D>
IDnet offer 40 and 80 Mbps,then 160Mbps, 550Mbps and 1Gbps
I don't see why these would not reflect the underlying openreach
wholesale product
     BT Retail    Sky    Talk Talk    Virgin    Vodafone
40/10    Fibre Essential        Faster Fibre        Superfast 1
55/10    Fibre 1            M50
80/20    Fibre 2          Superfast    Superfast Fibre        Superfast 2
110/15    Full Fibre 100    M100    Gigafast 100
160/30    Fibre 100    Ultrafast 1    Faster 150 Fibre
220/20            M200    Gigafast 200
330/50    Fibre 250 / Full Fibre 300    Ultrafast 2
550/75    Future Fibre    M500    Gigafast 500
1000/115 Full Fibre 900        Ultra Fibre Optic    Gig 1    Gigafast 900
Mmm.
That makes it look as if 55Mbps is the timeslot.
and 40 is a crippled 55...
   not strictly correct....
Post by The Natural Philosopher
100/100    Gigafast 100
200/200    Gigafast 200
500/500    Gigafast 500
900/900    Gigafast 900
S.
And its not quite correct to insinuate that Virgin's and Vodafone's
products are related to the underlying Openreach product for two reasons:

Virginmedia run their own network

Vodafone's Gigafast product is also on their own network, put in by City
fibre.

The upshot is that we have 3 sets of green roadside cabinets on the
estate, those being of CityFibre, Virginmedia and BT?Openreach.....

I could if I really wanted to, have all 3 services provided to our house
independently of each other.

As it happens, I have a dead BT master socket in the loft, a now dead
Virgin media TV & Telephone socket in loft but I do have a live Optical
Fibre from Vodafoen in the loft.... :-)
John Rumm
2021-09-14 09:12:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Mark Carver
Do you mean the FTTP offering  (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
I believe that was the initial way they did it. Now the copper is
decommissioned when fibre is installed - I understand they're going back and
retroactively disabling the copper from the installs they did where it's
still active.
One purpose of retaining the copper was it was still possible to order
classical ADSL on it. That somewhat made sense for those who didn't want to
pay for an FTTP connection, but nowadays they're removing ADSL kit from
exchanges and moving towards FTTC+FTTP so keeping a few DSLAMs is an
impediment to that process. And I believe there's been more progress
towards cheaper FTTP tariffs for those who don't need more bandwidth.
(ie FTTP is a delivery mechanism, not a speed upgrade)
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs. IIUC you will be able to use it for internet access as well -
but that will probably not be promoted as a selling point.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
SH
2021-09-14 09:41:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs. IIUC you will be able to use it for internet access as well -
but that will probably not be promoted as a selling point.
What a waste of a nice piece of fibre* just to provide voice calls
between the cabinet and the premises...... :-)

It would make more sense economically to have FTTC then leave the copper
wire from cabinet to home in place for the POTS. Only when the
householder wants fibre internet, then by all means replace the copper
pair with fibre

(Unless its a situation where a home owner moves out having had FTTP
installed and the incoming new householder does not want anything but a
"phone landline"?)

*I have FTTP and that gives me 1 Gbit/sec *BOTH* ways as well as a ATA
POTS port on the broadband modem
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 09:52:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SH
Post by John Rumm
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs. IIUC you will be able to use it for internet access as well
- but that will probably not be promoted as a selling point.
What a waste of a nice piece of fibre* just to provide voice calls
between the cabinet and the premises......   :-)
It would make more sense economically to have FTTC then leave the
copper wire from cabinet to home in place for the POTS. Only when the
householder wants fibre internet, then by all means replace the copper
pair with fibre
I'd say it makes more sense to get rid of all the copper ASAP. All the
poles in our village have their junction box covers swinging in the
wind, and I bet the manholes are full of water too.
I have an overhead copper line, I was rather hoping they will perform a
straight swap when my time comes, I really don't want my nice new (2020)
bargeboard messed up with
more of BT's plant than is absolutely necessary. I am planning to
pre-provide a route into my loft space for the 'internal' fibre run,
but  how that will be accepted on the day can't be predicted.

Currently on FTTC, with an 85 metre run to the cabinet. I think that's
about right. My sync maxes out at 80/20, with loads of SNR headroom.
Probably because of that, I'm way down the FTTP list ?
Andy Burns
2021-09-14 11:50:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
All the poles in our village have their junction box covers swinging
in the wind
Your BT and Virgin kit both seem neglected compared to around here.
Currently on FTTC, with an 85 metre run to the cabinet. I think that's
about right. My sync maxes out at 80/20, with loads of SNR headroom.
Probably because of that, I'm way down the FTTP list ?
Similar, I can *just* see the FTTC cabinet if I stick my head out the
study window, 79.990 x 19.999 speeds, if I needed/wanted FTTP then
virgin have it available here.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 16:39:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but  how that will be accepted on the day can't be
predicted.
They would not allow me that option.

They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre, for
service access.
--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill
charles
2021-09-14 16:56:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but how that will be accepted on the day can't
be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre, for
service access.
I suspect the dreaded "Ladder insurance" has come into play. Our window
cleaners have to stand on the ground.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
-
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 17:30:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but how that will be accepted on the day can't
be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre, for
service access.
I suspect the dreaded "Ladder insurance" has come into play. Our window
cleaners have to stand on the ground.
Yes. They installed a bolt for ladder securing in the house wall to
access where the overhead comes in to the house - the copper then splits
to the old circuit, and the fibre comes down to ground level. I told
them to leave it there. Handy.
Post by charles
Post by The Natural Philosopher
-
--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 17:14:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but  how that will be accepted on the day can't
be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre, for
service access.
Umm, yes, and I suppose they also insist on the box being outside,
rather than inside  ?
John Rumm
2021-09-15 01:47:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but  how that will be accepted on the day can't
be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre, for
service access.
Umm, yes, and I suppose they also insist on the box being outside,
rather than inside  ?
They didn't on mine - they brought the overhead onto the facia
(different place to the POTS), routed the cable through the trunking I
already had, and drilled a hole[1] through the wall, brought the fibre
in, and stuck the ONT next to my comms cabinet.


[1] Although I did have to lend em a drill as all their batteries were
flat for their SDS!
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Mark Carver
2021-09-15 07:33:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by Mark Carver
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but  how that will be accepted on the day
can't be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre,
for service access.
Umm, yes, and I suppose they also insist on the box being outside,
rather than inside  ?
They didn't on mine - they brought the overhead onto the facia
(different place to the POTS), routed the cable through the trunking I
already had, and drilled a hole[1] through the wall, brought the fibre
in, and stuck the ONT next to my comms cabinet.
Isn't there a fibre termination box (passive device) to splice the
'outdoor cable' to the 'indoor LSOH' grade cable, and then that goes to
an (active device) ONT ?
Or did they in your case take the 'outdoor' cable all the way to the ONT ?

Ideally I'd like the ONT to be in my technology cupboard, that is deep
inside the house. Currently the overhead POTs line hits the bargeboard,
goes into a little BT66A junction box, comes out of there as indoor
CW1308 and runs straight into the loft space, and down into my cupboard
from above, where it terminates on a BT master socket.

I'd really like the same route for the fibre, with the 'outdoor to
indoor' splice box either on the bargeboard, (or ideal, but likely not
allowed) in my loft space.

Failing all that, the bargeboard does have a 'lip', that I could glue a
length of 6x6mm trunking to on the unseen inside edge. That would get
the fibre to an 'inward' corner of brick work.
From there just down the brickwork to 300mm above ground level, fix the
splice box there, drill a hole straight into my study at that point, and
fit the ONT on the inside. Then patch the ONT ethernet output up one of
my spare CAT6 tie lines back my technology cupboard.

What a day it's going to be. I'll make damn sure to be there !
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:43:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Ideally I'd like the ONT to be in my technology cupboard, that is deep
inside the house. Currently the overhead POTs line hits the bargeboard,
goes into a little BT66A junction box, comes out of there as indoor
CW1308 and runs straight into the loft space, and down into my cupboard
from above, where it terminates on a BT master socket.
That's what I wanted. They refused to do it though.
--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell
Mark Carver
2021-09-15 08:15:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Mark Carver
Ideally I'd like the ONT to be in my technology cupboard, that is
deep inside the house. Currently the overhead POTs line hits the
bargeboard, goes into a little BT66A junction box, comes out of there
as indoor CW1308 and runs straight into the loft space, and down into
my cupboard from above, where it terminates on a BT master socket.
That's what I wanted. They refused to do it though.
Well, I'll pre-prepare the site for all eventualities and options.

It'll depend largely on the man, and his mood,  on the day I suspect.
Another variable is if the job gets contracted out to Quinn or Kelly
Comms. In that case, you really do have to wrestle the initiative away
from those bozos
Andy Burns
2021-09-15 08:17:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Mark Carver
Post by Mark Carver
Ideally I'd like the ONT to be in my technology cupboard, that is deep
inside the house. Currently the overhead POTs line hits the
bargeboard, goes into a little BT66A junction box, comes out of there
as indoor CW1308 and runs straight into the loft space, and down into
my cupboard from above, where it terminates on a BT master socket.
That's what I wanted. They refused to do it though.
Biscuits not posh enough?
Owain Lastname
2021-09-15 09:38:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Ideally I'd like the ONT to be in my technology cupboard, that is deep
inside the house.
I'd really like the same route for the fibre, with the 'outdoor to
indoor' splice box either on the bargeboard, (or ideal, but likely not
allowed) in my loft space.
You can move the ONT yourself, with a fibre extension lead. You just have to be careful not to break the BTOR fibre and to put it back if you need to call them out.

Owain
John Rumm
2021-09-15 12:15:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Post by John Rumm
Post by Mark Carver
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but  how that will be accepted on the day
can't be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre,
for service access.
Umm, yes, and I suppose they also insist on the box being outside,
rather than inside  ?
They didn't on mine - they brought the overhead onto the facia
(different place to the POTS), routed the cable through the trunking I
already had, and drilled a hole[1] through the wall, brought the fibre
in, and stuck the ONT next to my comms cabinet.
Isn't there a fibre termination box (passive device) to splice the
'outdoor cable' to the 'indoor LSOH' grade cable, and then that goes to
an (active device) ONT ?
Or did they in your case take the 'outdoor' cable all the way to the ONT ?
They brought the external fibre drop from the pole inside. It looks like
the wire wrapped the optical cable so they could fix it to the facia,
then just fed it down, cable tied to the back of a nearby gutter
downpipe until it was close to the trunking I already had on the side of
the house.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:32:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but  how that will be accepted on the day can't
be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre, for
service access.
Umm, yes, and I suppose they also insist on the box being outside,
rather than inside  ?
Yes.
And with the shortest possible fibre run to the internal modem.

The point being (I was informed), that they can check the optical
circuit right up to the premises without need for house access.
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels
Tim Lamb
2021-09-14 17:45:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I am planning to pre-provide a route into my loft space for the
'internal' fibre run, but  how that will be accepted on the day can't
be predicted.
They would not allow me that option.
They demanded a ground level external box to terminate the fibre, for
service access.
A recent install for our neighbours comes down the pole and terminates
at shoulder height!
Have they not met rural teenagers?
--
Tim Lamb
Owain Lastname
2021-09-14 16:07:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SH
Post by John Rumm
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs.
What a waste of a nice piece of fibre* just to provide voice calls
between the cabinet and the premises...... :-)
It will be for 'old people' who still want a "landline" phone.

I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.

Owain
charles
2021-09-14 16:30:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by SH
Post by John Rumm
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs.
What a waste of a nice piece of fibre* just to provide voice calls
between the cabinet and the premises...... :-)
It will be for 'old people' who still want a "landline" phone.
I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.
Owain
I can see the lack of being able to dial 999 in a power cut as leading to a
disaster ot two. Like 'smart' motorways
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 17:18:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by SH
Post by John Rumm
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs.
What a waste of a nice piece of fibre* just to provide voice calls
between the cabinet and the premises...... :-)
It will be for 'old people' who still want a "landline" phone.
I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.
Owain
I can see the lack of being able to dial 999 in a power cut as leading to a
disaster ot two. Like 'smart' motorways
you can dial 999 from a mobile, but you have to tell them where you are

Alternatively 3rd party UPSes can be used to power up whatever kit is
needed - fibre needs no power in between you and the regional exchange -
its all passive. So at a minimum you just need power on the fibre modem
, if you use that socket, or on the router and fibre modem if you are
using router based or LAN based voip...
--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 17:20:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
you can dial 999 from a mobile, but you have to tell them where you are
I've dialled 999 twice from my mobile. In both cases they knew roughly
where I was (Presumably from the cell Tx coverage zone)
charles
2021-09-14 17:38:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by SH
Post by John Rumm
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs.
What a waste of a nice piece of fibre* just to provide voice calls
between the cabinet and the premises...... :-)
It will be for 'old people' who still want a "landline" phone.
I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.
Owain
I can see the lack of being able to dial 999 in a power cut as leading to a
disaster ot two. Like 'smart' motorways
you can dial 999 from a mobile,
True, but many vulnerable people don't have mobiles.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
but you have to tell them where you are
Alternatively 3rd party UPSes can be used to power up whatever kit is
needed - fibre needs no power in between you and the regional exchange -
its all passive. So at a minimum you just need power on the fibre modem
, if you use that socket, or on the router and fibre modem if you are
using router based or LAN based voip...
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:33:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
True, but many vulnerable people don't have mobiles.
Then they should get one
--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone
Robin
2021-09-15 08:25:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
True, but many vulnerable people don't have mobiles.
Then they should get one
A mobile is bugger all use for those relying on a home lifeline/alarm
system which plugs into a traditional PSTN socket. Won't be cheap
switching all those to systems which use mobile networks.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Sn!pe
2021-09-14 19:52:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owain Lastname
Post by SH
Post by John Rumm
There is a 0.5 Mbps FTTP product that will be used for "voice only"
installs.
What a waste of a nice piece of fibre* just to provide voice calls
between the cabinet and the premises...... :-)
It will be for 'old people' who still want a "landline" phone.
I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with
everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local
council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.
Owain
Fax is comparatively secure as it doesn't use the Internet,
only POTS. That's important for patient confidentiality.
--
^Ï^


My pet rock Gordon just is.
John Walliker
2021-09-14 22:19:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Fax is comparatively secure as it doesn't use the Internet,
only POTS. That's important for patient confidentiality.
Fax is far less secure than an encrypted message sent over the internet.

John
Sn!pe
2021-09-14 22:26:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Walliker
Post by Sn!pe
Fax is comparatively secure as it doesn't use the Internet,
only POTS. That's important for patient confidentiality.
Fax is far less secure than an encrypted message sent over the internet.
John
But it ~is~ point-to-point and would take a wiretap to intercept.
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:35:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by John Walliker
Post by Sn!pe
Fax is comparatively secure as it doesn't use the Internet,
only POTS. That's important for patient confidentiality.
Fax is far less secure than an encrypted message sent over the internet.
John
But it ~is~ point-to-point and would take a wiretap to intercept.
since most wide area telephony is now carried out over packet switching,
or even IP, you are wrong there.
--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone
Sn!pe
2021-09-15 10:31:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Sn!pe
Post by John Walliker
Post by Sn!pe
Fax is comparatively secure as it doesn't use the Internet,
only POTS. That's important for patient confidentiality.
Fax is far less secure than an encrypted message sent over the internet.
John
But it ~is~ point-to-point and would take a wiretap to intercept.
since most wide area telephony is now carried out over packet switching,
or even IP, you are wrong there.
Granted that it is these days, but I think not when the NHS first
adopted fax and obviously inertia is a big factor too. Then again,
I imagine fax may also be more reliable, considering the NHS computer
system's track record. I do find it worrying that digitalisation can
lead to worse system resilience.

Whatever; my comments are no more than idle maunderings. <g>
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 14:33:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Sn!pe
Post by John Walliker
Post by Sn!pe
Fax is comparatively secure as it doesn't use the Internet,
only POTS. That's important for patient confidentiality.
Fax is far less secure than an encrypted message sent over the internet.
John
But it ~is~ point-to-point and would take a wiretap to intercept.
since most wide area telephony is now carried out over packet switching,
or even IP, you are wrong there.
Granted that it is these days, but I think not when the NHS first
adopted fax and obviously inertia is a big factor too.
System X predates fax. we haven't had an end to end single copper pair
since the 1960s

Then again,
Post by Sn!pe
I imagine fax may also be more reliable, considering the NHS computer
system's track record. I do find it worrying that digitalisation can
lead to worse system resilience.
IP transfer is extremely resilient: And end to end encryption is better
than fax for security

Uploading a file using https is pretty damned proof against man in the
middle attacks

Many legal firms will use this sort of secure file transfer. You get an
account which limits what you can access, and you can upload and
download files in secure ways.
Post by Sn!pe
Whatever; my comments are no more than idle maunderings. <g>
--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.
Andy Burns
2021-09-15 14:41:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
System X predates fax.
It predates CCITT group 3 fax, sure, but I think don't think even dennis
would claim System X was around before 1843.

The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:34:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Walliker
Post by Sn!pe
Fax is comparatively secure as it doesn't use the Internet,
only POTS. That's important for patient confidentiality.
Fax is far less secure than an encrypted message sent over the internet.
John
+1
--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone
Theo
2021-09-14 20:51:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owain Lastname
It will be for 'old people' who still want a "landline" phone.
I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with
everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local
council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.
I doubt it. Ever tried Facetiming your bank?

Maybe you can do loads of stuff on live chat, but a way to get a direct
voice connection is still pretty important to businesses. Maybe they will
push customer service to live messaging, but I very much doubt the sales
department will want to go entirely that way.

Theo
Rod Speed
2021-09-15 00:45:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Owain Lastname
It will be for 'old people' who still want a "landline" phone.
I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with
everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local
council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.
I doubt it. Ever tried Facetiming your bank?
Maybe you can do loads of stuff on live chat, but a way to get a direct
voice connection is still pretty important to businesses. Maybe they will
push customer service to live messaging, but I very much doubt the sales
department will want to go entirely that way.
A few of ours don’t have a call center at all anymore, its live chat or
nothing.

Initially I thought that they must be made because live chat is
less efficient for the service provider but they appear to be
automating the live chat so you only get a human at all in
some situations.

Not clear how that will pan out over time. With the use of
cheap labor foreign call centers, some did give up on those
and returned to in country call centers, so that might happen
with those that don’t have any call center at all anymore.

And some of ours only allow new customers to call with a phone call too.
Peeler
2021-09-15 07:44:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:45:05 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Post by Rod Speed
A few of ours
This is a UK-newsgroup, senile troll!

Get the fuck out of European ngs that are absolutely none of yours, senile
pest!
--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID: <***@mid.individual.net>
Owain Lastname
2021-09-15 09:35:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owain Lastname
I can see "landline" phones going the way of Telex pretty quickly, with
everyone using messaging apps for everything except phoning the local
council, who will hang on like the NHS did to fax.
I doubt it. Ever tried Facetiming your bank?
No, because I don't do Facetiming (whatever that may be). I hardly ever phone them though either.
Maybe you can do loads of stuff on live chat, but a way to get a direct
voice connection is still pretty important to businesses. Maybe they will
push customer service to live messaging, but I very much doubt the sales
department will want to go entirely that way.
Click on link on bank website, open audio/video calling function. Doesn't have to be typey-chat. Certainly doesn't have to be "dialling" 0345 788 8444 on a "phone".

Owain
John Rumm
2021-09-14 09:08:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Post by John Rumm
At this point, you can still have analogue voice on the local loop
since the cabinet also has analogue back-haul. Once that goes, a FTTC
offering will become a SOGEA one with no analogue voice capability.
Do you mean the FTTP offering  (rather than FTTC) ?
Not necessarily no. FTTC is still available can can be ordered. When
they dispense with the analogue voice capability of the network, the
FTTC technology will still be used in some circumstances, but supplied
as SOGEA (Single Order Generic Ethernet Access). This gives the same (or
better) broadband access as FTTC, but no analogue voice, no line rental
etc. In some cases can also support higher access speeds than the
typical 80/20 limit of FTTC
Post by Mark Carver
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
Yup that is what happened in my cases. I have two analogue lines, that
used to have ADSL on both with combined broadband and phone deals on
both. When FTTP became available, as one of my existing ISPs supported
that, I "ported" my service to that.

In reality that just meant reverting one ADSL line to POTS only and
starting a broadband service on the FTTP (although I did get to keep my
static IP).
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Vir Campestris
2021-09-14 20:29:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Post by John Rumm
At this point, you can still have analogue voice on the local loop
since the cabinet also has analogue back-haul. Once that goes, a FTTC
offering will become a SOGEA one with no analogue voice capability.
Do you mean the FTTP offering  (rather than FTTC) ?
In other words then, initially when you have FTTP installed, your
broadband connection is via that, but voice continues on your pre
existing copper line ?
That's what we had initially. They moved the voice onto IP much (a
year?) later.

Andy
Roland Perry
2021-09-14 08:21:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'. The upper outlet feeds my modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
My supplier is NOT BT. Openreach are installing a 2 village wide FTTP
scheme, for which I have signed up. The Parish Council have given the date.
And, of course we lose our POTS service in 4 years time (I think that's
national),
Ah, I see. Well, once you're on FTTP, POTs (in its form of analogue
audio over copper into your house)  will go for you at that point too.
As I understand it those of us still on FTTC by the end of 2025 will
lose the POTs connection, but our internet will continue over the
copper wire into our homes.
What will go at the end of 2025 are the copper trunks between the
exchange and the FTTC cabinets (nationally), so the phone service will
be the same VoIP style service you'll be getting from that point.
Will Openreach install a broadband router with a phone output socket (my
ISP isn't BT) or will they give me a VoIP phone (preferably connecting
to the router by Wifi), or something/nothing else?
--
Roland Perry
Theo
2021-09-14 08:40:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Will Openreach install a broadband router with a phone output socket (my
ISP isn't BT) or will they give me a VoIP phone (preferably connecting
to the router by Wifi), or something/nothing else?
For FTTP, Openreach will install an ONT. This may have a phone socket, but
that will probably be unused. Your ISP will provide a router to plug into
it via Ethernet. That will provide a phone socket, into which you can plug
in your analogue phone (or reinject into your extension wiring).

They could choose to give you a VOIP phone, and maybe they would if you were
on a 'premium' package, but the cheap and easy option for them is just an
analogue port on their router.

Theo
John Rumm
2021-09-14 09:15:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'.  The upper outlet feeds my
modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
My supplier is NOT BT. Openreach are installing a 2 village wide FTTP
scheme, for which I have signed up. The Parish Council have given the date.
And, of course we lose our POTS service in 4 years time (I think that's
national),
Ah, I see. Well, once you're on FTTP, POTs (in its form of analogue
audio over copper into your house)  will go for you at that point too.
As I understand it those of us still on FTTC by the end of 2025 will
lose the POTs connection, but our internet will continue over the
copper wire into our homes.
What will go at the end of 2025 are the copper trunks between the
exchange and the FTTC cabinets (nationally), so the phone service will
be the same VoIP style service you'll be getting from that point.
Will Openreach install a broadband router with a phone output socket (my
ISP isn't BT) or will they give me a VoIP phone (preferably connecting
to the router by Wifi), or something/nothing else?
Your ISP could choose either of those options, or to supply a separate
VoIP interface box. I expect most will probably supply VoIP router as
standard since it will be cheaper and less complicated to setup for the
end user. (many "free" ISP routers come with a BT phone socket on them
already)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 09:41:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
Post by Mark Carver
Post by charles
No. At the moment we have FTTC. FTTP due in November/December. Currently
the 2 outlet socket says 'Mk3'.  The upper outlet feeds my
modem/router,
thenloweeer one is telephone.
Who is your supplier, and was it they, or BT Openreach who have informed
you of the switchover ?
My supplier is NOT BT. Openreach are installing a 2 village wide FTTP
scheme, for which I have signed up. The Parish Council have given the date.
And, of course we lose our POTS service in 4 years time (I think that's
national),
Ah, I see. Well, once you're on FTTP, POTs (in its form of analogue
audio over copper into your house)  will go for you at that point too.
As I understand it those of us still on FTTC by the end of 2025 will
lose the POTs connection, but our internet will continue over the
copper wire into our homes.
What will go at the end of 2025 are the copper trunks between the
exchange and the FTTC cabinets (nationally), so the phone service
will be the same VoIP style service you'll be getting from that point.
Will Openreach install a broadband router with a phone output socket
(my ISP isn't BT) or will they give me a VoIP phone (preferably
connecting to the router by Wifi), or something/nothing else?
Your ISP could choose either of those options, or to supply a separate
VoIP interface box. I expect most will probably supply VoIP router as
standard since it will be cheaper and less complicated to setup for
the end user. (many "free" ISP routers come with a BT phone socket on
them already)
My son moved into a new build 4 years ago. He had FTTP from the word go,
though it was 'Hobson's Choice' back then, and had to use BT Retail for
the service (or pay a fortune to a non BT ISP for a business grade service)

His phone service was via a socket on the Openreach ONT. (He never used
it, I insisted he left a 5 quid Argos phone plugged in for emergency
use) His ONT has a mini UPS built in.
The BT Home Hub plugged into the ONT via Ethernet

Last year he migrated to Sky. Now the phone port on the Openreach ONT is
dead, and instead a phone Port on Sky's supplied router is used.
Amazingly he didn't lose his landline phone number in the process,
although he has no idea what it is (I do :-) )
Andy Burns
2021-09-14 10:59:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Carver
My son moved into a new build 4 years ago. He had FTTP from the word go,
though it was 'Hobson's Choice' back then, and had to use BT Retail for
the service (or pay a fortune to a non BT ISP for a business grade service)
His phone service was via a socket on the Openreach ONT. (He never used
it, I insisted he left a 5 quid Argos phone plugged in for emergency
use) His ONT has a mini UPS built in.
The BT Home Hub plugged into the ONT via Ethernet
Last year he migrated to Sky. Now the phone port on the Openreach ONT is
dead, and instead a phone Port on Sky's supplied router is used.
Amazingly he didn't lose his landline phone number in the process
I can see this being a nightmare for "normal" people, does anyone move
their phone provider independent from their internet provider any more?
Or is it all too cheap to worry about nowadays? So much for the
unbundling of a few years ago ...
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 12:38:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Mark Carver
My son moved into a new build 4 years ago. He had FTTP from the word
go, though it was 'Hobson's Choice' back then, and had to use BT
Retail for the service (or pay a fortune to a non BT ISP for a
business grade service)
His phone service was via a socket on the Openreach ONT. (He never
used it, I insisted he left a 5 quid Argos phone plugged in for
emergency use) His ONT has a mini UPS built in.
The BT Home Hub plugged into the ONT via Ethernet
Last year he migrated to Sky. Now the phone port on the Openreach ONT
is dead, and instead a phone Port on Sky's supplied router is used.
Amazingly he didn't lose his landline phone number in the process
I can see this being a nightmare for "normal" people, does anyone move
their phone provider independent from their internet provider any more?
The new 'normal' people in this world, are my son who simply never uses,
nor wants a landline phone service. Folk like you and I and the
generation above us are  becoming an increasingly <cough> diluted
presence !
Post by Andy Burns
Or is it all too cheap to worry about nowadays?  So much for the
unbundling of a few years ago ...
It is a mess, I notice too that Plusnet now are not doing the 'Advance
Line Rental' payment, so I'll soon be paying 21 quid a month for a
service I'd like to move into the VoIP domain away from them or another
ISP.  Except of course that most of that 21 quid pays for someone to
make sure the lid stays on the junction boxes on the poles etc. Err,
hang on !
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 16:33:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Will Openreach install a broadband router with a phone output socket (my
ISP isn't BT) or will they give me a VoIP phone (preferably connecting
to the router by Wifi), or something/nothing else?
They install a MODEM with a phone socket on it. You then need a router
that has *Ethernet* capability for WAN access genearally known as a
'cable router'

If you have a router with a phone socket on it, as I have, you have two
possible ways to connect the phone.
--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire
Vir Campestris
2021-09-14 20:33:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Roland Perry
Will Openreach install a broadband router with a phone output socket
(my ISP isn't BT) or will they give me a VoIP phone (preferably
connecting to the router by Wifi), or something/nothing else?
They install a MODEM with a phone socket on it. You then need a router
that has *Ethernet* capability for WAN access genearally known as a
'cable router'
If you have a router with a phone socket on it, as I have, you have two
possible ways to connect the phone.
Except when BT moved us to VOIP the 'phone sockets on the modem weren't
used - it's all over WiFi to the router.

Andy
John Rumm
2021-09-15 01:54:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Roland Perry
Will Openreach install a broadband router with a phone output socket
(my ISP isn't BT) or will they give me a VoIP phone (preferably
connecting to the router by Wifi), or something/nothing else?
They install a MODEM with a phone socket on it. You then need a router
that has *Ethernet* capability for WAN access genearally known as a
'cable router'
I get the impression that the openreach chaps who did mine were pretty
used to supplying a BT router with the setup.

I ordered just the ONT with no router, and they were not quite sure what
to do to handover the service once the ONT had powered up and connected
since there was nothing further they could test or demo.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
If you have a router with a phone socket on it, as I have, you have two
possible ways to connect the phone.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-13 17:38:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by SH
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant or could i instead connect the router to the
extension outlet circuit to maintain the connection to these other
outlets?
I have optical fibre to the home.
The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in then
then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a telephone
port on it.
In which case, the lead that goes into my current OpenReach box should fit?
The lead feeds my 4 extension PAX
that's what I have. My router has a POTS port connected to SIPGATE, and
I have in addition a POTS line, so my 2 into 8 PABX can use either.
--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal
Tim Lamb
2021-09-14 09:14:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SH
I have optical fibre to the home.
The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in
then then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a
telephone port on it.
I use a RJ11 to RJ45 adapter to then connect to my patch panel in
the loft where 5 telephone lines are patched in. Each of these lines
then feeds a secondary telephone socket into which a fax and 4 voice
telephones are plugged into. One of these phones is also an answering
machine.
If you have a lot more phones than I, then you may need a REN booster.
I too have optical fibre to the home.
When BT installed the fibre they gave me a modem with two POTS ports;
one of those was connected to a 'phone socket in a convenient place.
The phone stayed on the old copper.
Recently they've moved me over to digital 'phone.
By giving me a cordless IP 'phone, and an adapter that will take an old
type 'phone.
Both of these talk WiFi to the (BT supplied) router, and neither the
POTS port on the modem nor the copper master socket work any more.
It bugs me that this means I have no 'phone in a power cut, but WTH. If
it's a real emergency mobile might work for a while.
The nice thing is that I now have a "land line" in my garden office,
and I can use it to call the house. Or vice versa. Even though they are
supposed to be the same number!
This village of 7000 plus seems well behind the curve if TNPs hamlet is
connected!
For the technologically unaware, does any of this conflict with our
Panasonic wifi internal set up?
--
Tim Lamb
John Rumm
2021-09-14 09:34:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tim Lamb
 I have optical fibre to the home.
 The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in
then  then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a
telephone  port on it.
 I use a RJ11 to RJ45 adapter to then connect to my patch panel in
the  loft where 5 telephone lines are patched in. Each of these lines
then  feeds a secondary telephone socket into which a fax and 4 voice
telephones are plugged into. One of these phones is also an answering
machine.
 If you have a lot more phones than I, then you may need a REN booster.
I too have optical fibre to the home.
When BT installed the fibre they gave me a modem with two POTS ports;
one of those was connected to a 'phone socket in a convenient place.
The phone stayed on the old copper.
Recently they've moved me over to digital 'phone.
By giving me a cordless IP 'phone, and an adapter that will take an
old type 'phone.
Both of these talk WiFi to the (BT supplied) router, and neither the
POTS port on the modem nor the copper master socket work any more.
It bugs me that this means I have no 'phone in a power cut, but WTH.
If it's a real emergency mobile might work for a while.
The nice thing is that I now have a "land line" in my garden office,
and I can use it to call the house. Or vice versa. Even though they
are supposed to be the same number!
This village of 7000 plus seems well behind the curve if TNPs hamlet is
connected!
That's a fairly common pattern. Initially they rolled out FTTP to the
places where it was technically not feasible or too expensive to meet
the minimum speed service guarantee by other means. So here for example,
19 properties about 5 - 6 km from the exchange and no local street
cabinet, FTTP was "easier".

(in reality it seemed to employ one chap working single handed for a
couple of weeks or so, climbing each pole in turn, stringing the "cable"
and splicing in termination/connection points on any poles close to
properties)
Post by Tim Lamb
For the technologically unaware, does any of this conflict with our
Panasonic wifi internal set up?
Do you mean wifi or do you mean cordless (e.g. DECT) phones? (just that
Panasonic are not that well known for wifi equipment)

The answer in either case is no. If you move to VoIP, then you can in
general have "something" that will present an analogue voice port that
looks like a good ole' POTS phone socket as far as the kit plugged into
it is concerned. That it rapidly munged into digits before it even gets
out of the house makes little practical difference (although for those
with long lines, the voice quality will likely improve)
--
Cheers,

John.

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Tim Lamb
2021-09-14 13:04:06 UTC
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Snip
Post by John Rumm
Post by Tim Lamb
The nice thing is that I now have a "land line" in my garden office,
and I can use it to call the house. Or vice versa. Even though they
are supposed to be the same number!
This village of 7000 plus seems well behind the curve if TNPs hamlet
is connected!
That's a fairly common pattern. Initially they rolled out FTTP to the
places where it was technically not feasible or too expensive to meet
the minimum speed service guarantee by other means. So here for
example, 19 properties about 5 - 6 km from the exchange and no local
street cabinet, FTTP was "easier".
(in reality it seemed to employ one chap working single handed for a
couple of weeks or so, climbing each pole in turn, stringing the
"cable" and splicing in termination/connection points on any poles
close to properties)
Post by Tim Lamb
For the technologically unaware, does any of this conflict with our
Panasonic wifi internal set up?
Do you mean wifi or do you mean cordless (e.g. DECT) phones? (just that
Panasonic are not that well known for wifi equipment)
Sorry cordless.
Post by John Rumm
The answer in either case is no. If you move to VoIP, then you can in
general have "something" that will present an analogue voice port that
looks like a good ole' POTS phone socket as far as the kit plugged into
it is concerned. That it rapidly munged into digits before it even gets
out of the house makes little practical difference (although for those
with long lines, the voice quality will likely improve)
--
Tim Lamb
Andy Burns
2021-09-14 11:52:58 UTC
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Post by Tim Lamb
This village of 7000 plus seems well behind the curve if TNPs hamlet is
connected!
Until recently (now they're supposed to be full-speed on FTTP) it was
quite often the difficult to reach places with a handful of houses
strung out along a country road that *were* getting fibre, ahead of FTTC.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 16:37:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Lamb
 I have optical fibre to the home.
 The fibre feeds into an ONT (Optical Network Terminator) which in
then  then feeds via a cable to a broadband modem, This modem has a
telephone  port on it.
 I use a RJ11 to RJ45 adapter to then connect to my patch panel in
the  loft where 5 telephone lines are patched in. Each of these lines
then  feeds a secondary telephone socket into which a fax and 4 voice
telephones are plugged into. One of these phones is also an answering
machine.
 If you have a lot more phones than I, then you may need a REN booster.
I too have optical fibre to the home.
When BT installed the fibre they gave me a modem with two POTS ports;
one of those was connected to a 'phone socket in a convenient place.
The phone stayed on the old copper.
Recently they've moved me over to digital 'phone.
By giving me a cordless IP 'phone, and an adapter that will take an
old type 'phone.
Both of these talk WiFi to the (BT supplied) router, and neither the
POTS port on the modem nor the copper master socket work any more.
It bugs me that this means I have no 'phone in a power cut, but WTH.
If it's a real emergency mobile might work for a while.
The nice thing is that I now have a "land line" in my garden office,
and I can use it to call the house. Or vice versa. Even though they
are supposed to be the same number!
This village of 7000 plus seems well behind the curve if TNPs hamlet is
connected!
The problem we had was that the village is so extended than many people
were outside the main concentration of houses could not get FTTC.

So they gave us FTTP instead.

The rest of the village is on FTTC and will remain so for some time I
suspect
Post by Tim Lamb
For the technologically unaware, does any of this conflict with our
Panasonic wifi internal set up?
what panasonic wifi?
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
Tim Lamb
2021-09-14 18:59:54 UTC
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Snip
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Tim Lamb
This village of 7000 plus seems well behind the curve if TNPs hamlet
is connected!
The problem we had was that the village is so extended than many people
were outside the main concentration of houses could not get FTTC.
Hmm. I think the nearest cabinet to us is around 800m.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
So they gave us FTTP instead.
The rest of the village is on FTTC and will remain so for some time I
suspect
Post by Tim Lamb
For the technologically unaware, does any of this conflict with our
Panasonic wifi internal set up?
what panasonic wifi?
Cordless phone. The signal barely makes it to my office.
--
Tim Lamb
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:33:54 UTC
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Post by Tim Lamb
Snip
Post by The Natural Philosopher
 This village of 7000 plus seems well behind the curve if TNPs hamlet
is  connected!
The problem we had was that the village is so extended than many
people were outside the main concentration of houses could not get FTTC.
Hmm. I think the nearest cabinet to us is around 800m.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
So they gave us FTTP instead.
The rest of the village is on FTTC and will remain so for some time I
suspect
For the technologically unaware, does any of this conflict with our
Panasonic wifi internal set up?
what panasonic wifi?
Cordless phone. The signal barely makes it to my office.
That's not wifi
--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
2021-09-14 06:32:21 UTC
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I'd hope that there would be equipment available to feed the extensions as
before. My main worry about this kind of thing is the vulnerability if the
power goes off, since at the moment most land lines have a battery back up
so they can continue working for some hours without the internet.
Not everyone has a mobile after all, and many live in poor signal areas.
I did talk to Virgin about this, as they are about to start in this area
and they told me that as long as you say no to the email when you get it,
they will leave it hard wired until the economics of keeping it connected
are too high.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my line
to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the broadband
router.
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet
circuit to maintain the connection to these other outlets?
tim...
2021-09-14 09:56:13 UTC
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Permalink
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my line
to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the broadband
router.
are the proposing sending you a new router, because AFAICT my router doesn't
have such a socket

and what about people who don't have BB? They don't have a router at all
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these become
redundant
seems likely
or could i instead connect the router to the extension outlet circuit to
maintain the connection to these other outlets?
Andy Burns
2021-09-14 11:05:40 UTC
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and what about people who don't have BB?  They don't have a router at all
I think they will be "given" a slow (256Mbps ?) broadband and router
just for voice, if they really wanted to they could use it for
excruciatingly slow internet access AIUI.
Andy Burns
2021-09-14 11:57:03 UTC
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 256 Mbps is *not* slow....
I think you meant 256 kbps?
err, yes.
John Rumm
2021-09-14 12:08:19 UTC
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Post by Andy Burns
  256 Mbps is *not* slow....
I think you meant 256 kbps?
err, yes.
...thinks back to my first 2400 bps modem ;-)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
SH
2021-09-14 12:29:48 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by Andy Burns
  256 Mbps is *not* slow....
I think you meant 256 kbps?
err, yes.
...thinks back to my first 2400 bps modem ;-)
...thinks back to my first minicom that could use EDTN or Baudot or
CCITT at 300 bps..... ;-)
charles
2021-09-14 12:35:39 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by Andy Burns
256 Mbps is *not* slow....
I think you meant 256 kbps?
err, yes.
...thinks back to my first 2400 bps modem ;-)
That fast ;-)
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
John Rumm
2021-09-14 16:28:17 UTC
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Post by charles
Post by John Rumm
Post by Andy Burns
256 Mbps is *not* slow....
I think you meant 256 kbps?
err, yes.
...thinks back to my first 2400 bps modem ;-)
That fast ;-)
Yeah, I splashed out on the new V22bis version.

(Cost me getting on for £700 if adjusted for inflation!)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
John Rumm
2021-09-14 11:15:15 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
My landline operator has advised me that they will soon converting my
line to digital and i will need to plug my home phone into the
broadband router.
are the proposing sending you a new router, because AFAICT my router
doesn't have such a socket
and what about people who don't have BB?  They don't have a router at all
Having broadband will become a requirement for voice traffic in the same
was as having a land line (and line rental) was for a phone in the past.

However you will still be able to order a "phone line" from whatever
provider you want. They will supply and install, and you will be able to
plug a phone into it. So the end user experience will be much the same.

All that changes is the foundation technology. So they will get a router
one way or another... it might not look like a "router" and might just
be promoted as the "thing you need to plug the phone into", in much the
same way as a NTE5 master socket currently is.
Post by tim...
Post by Jack Harry Teesdale
As i have several phone outlet points around the house will these
become redundant
seems likely
They don't have to be.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
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