Discussion:
Covid Vs Perfume
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thescullster
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
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Hi Guys

When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.

This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).

Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.

Phil
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Robin
2021-01-13 22:45:42 UTC
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Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
If you are smelling perfume from a person then you are not smelling
droplets. You are smelling the vapour from the perfume - some of the
molecules of the aromatic compounds which were left on the person's skin
after they sprayed or dabbed the perfume on and which are slowly
evaporating.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Rod Speed
2021-01-14 00:50:27 UTC
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Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must
be heavier than perfume by a factor of 5 (if you
accept the government's 2m rule as valid).
It isnt. We now know that aerosols are a massive problem with
this virus given the choir that got infected by one individual.
the massive rate of infection of medical personnel in Melbourne
Australia hospitals and now in a quarantine hotel in Brisbane.
Post by thescullster
Or is there another factor that plays into the
airbornness of perfume and Covid particles.
Yep., aerosols.
Peeler
2021-01-14 08:51:09 UTC
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On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 11:50:27 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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Paul
2021-01-14 01:23:46 UTC
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Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
Phil
https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/droplet-transmission-1.5549547

"Then, in 1934, W.F. Wells at the Harvard School of Public Health
showed that large droplets (bigger than 0.1 millimetre) tended to
fall and settle on the ground within a distance of two metres,
while smaller droplets evaporated and the virus particles left
behind could remain suspended in the air for a long time."

"Since then, respiratory diseases have been divided into those
transmitted via droplets (usually from close contact) and those
that are airborne and can spread over longer distances, such as
measles or tuberculosis."

"Does it mean that COVID-19 is spreading from person to person
through aerosols? I would say definitively not," Loeb said.

"The reason we know that is because all around the world we
have hundreds of health-care workers who are taking care of
patients wearing regular masks," she said. "If this were
airborne - if this were usually in those small [aerosol]
particles — all those health-care workers would be getting sick."
"

If this were measles-like, we'd be using entirely different rules.

Part of what you're doing, is keeping your distance from super-spreaders.

When some barber shop employees got COVID, none of their customers
got it, because (amongst other things) mask policy.

The chick with the perfume might be a proxy for measles,
but not for COVID. She would be indicative of "how careful
you'd need to be to avoid measles".

Paul
Rod Speed
2021-01-14 01:36:47 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by thescullster
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
Phil
https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/droplet-transmission-1.5549547
"Then, in 1934, W.F. Wells at the Harvard School of Public Health
showed that large droplets (bigger than 0.1 millimetre) tended to
fall and settle on the ground within a distance of two metres,
while smaller droplets evaporated and the virus particles left
behind could remain suspended in the air for a long time."
"Since then, respiratory diseases have been divided into those
transmitted via droplets (usually from close contact) and those
that are airborne and can spread over longer distances, such as
measles or tuberculosis."
"Does it mean that COVID-19 is spreading from person to person
through aerosols? I would say definitively not," Loeb said.
We now know that it is from the massive rate of infection
of medical people in Melbourne hospitals in their second
wave and from the most recent spread in a quarantine
hotel in Brisbane and from the choir practice spread.
Post by Paul
"The reason we know that is because all around the world we
have hundreds of health-care workers who are taking care of
patients wearing regular masks," she said. "If this were
airborne - if this were usually in those small [aerosol]
particles — all those health-care workers would be getting sick."
"
And that is precisely what has happen in hospitals
in Melbourne Australia in their second wave.
Post by Paul
If this were measles-like, we'd be using entirely different rules.
Part of what you're doing, is keeping your distance from super-spreaders.
When some barber shop employees got COVID, none of their customers
got it, because (amongst other things) mask policy.
Doesn’t explain the Melbourne hospitals problem.
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/why-did-so-many-victorian-healthcare-workers-get-infected/12967882

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-14/brisbane-hotel-grand-chancellor-covid-qld-quarantine-inquiry/13052060
Post by Paul
The chick with the perfume might be a proxy for measles,
but not for COVID. She would be indicative of "how careful
you'd need to be to avoid measles".
Peeler
2021-01-14 08:51:50 UTC
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On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:36:47 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

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RJH
2021-01-14 09:38:55 UTC
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Post by Paul
Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
Phil
https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/droplet-transmission-1.5549547
"Then, in 1934, W.F. Wells at the Harvard School of Public Health
showed that large droplets (bigger than 0.1 millimetre) tended to
fall and settle on the ground within a distance of two metres,
while smaller droplets evaporated and the virus particles left
behind could remain suspended in the air for a long time."
"Since then, respiratory diseases have been divided into those
transmitted via droplets (usually from close contact) and those
that are airborne and can spread over longer distances, such as
measles or tuberculosis."
"Does it mean that COVID-19 is spreading from person to person
through aerosols? I would say definitively not," Loeb said.
I think Leob is incorrect. Aerosol transmission is now well documented, and
ventilation guidance is now pretty standard in all risk assessments.
Post by Paul
"The reason we know that is because all around the world we
have hundreds of health-care workers who are taking care of
patients wearing regular masks," she said. "If this were
airborne - if this were usually in those small [aerosol]
particles — all those health-care workers would be getting sick."
"
They are. Depending on the context, much more likely to become infected, and
7x more likely to suffer severe symptoms.

https://oem.bmj.com/content/early/2020/12/01/oemed-2020-106731
Post by Paul
If this were measles-like, we'd be using entirely different rules.
Part of what you're doing, is keeping your distance from super-spreaders.
When some barber shop employees got COVID, none of their customers
got it, because (amongst other things) mask policy.
The chick with the perfume might be a proxy for measles,
but not for COVID. She would be indicative of "how careful
you'd need to be to avoid measles".
The danger with generalising from one case is that . . . it doesn't work,
especially with new variant(s) appearing. We simply don't know at this point.
--
Cheers, Rob
Martin Brown
2021-01-14 08:58:42 UTC
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Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
Same for cigarette smoke too.
Post by thescullster
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
A perfume molecule is typically some sort of cyclic aromatic molecular
weight around 80-300 amu. Some lighter and some much heavier.

A virus is a mixture of RNA and protein and very much heavier.
The ratio of their typical masses is more like 10^6 (back of envelope)
(just for a single fragrance molecule and single virus particle)

Infective Covid particles are much heavier than that typically being in
a water aerosol with around 1um radius. They still float in the air for
a very long time which is why they are trouble in a confined space.

A typically infective aerosol droplet would be another 10^5 times
heavier still but that is still only of the order of 1pg (tiny).

These things are all so light that they drift in the air.
Post by thescullster
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
Brownian motion (no relation) jostles very small particles and keeps
them aloft for quite a while as do air currents. When the medics talk of
airborne transmission they mean these fine invisible aerosols rather
than visible sized droplets spray that you can see with visible light.

Individual virus particles have to get very lucky to infect you. The
probability of any one being successful is around 0.1% so when you get
exposed to around 700 then your odds are 50:50 for catching it. Give or
take a factor of three either way - no challenge tests have been done.

You could be very unlucky and catch it from a single virus but our
innate immune systems defences are really rather good otherwise we would
be succumbing to all sorts of opportunistic diseases (as happens to
people whose immune systems are compromised).
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jimmy Stewart ...
2021-01-14 14:18:27 UTC
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Post by Martin Brown
Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
  from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
Same for cigarette smoke too.
Post by thescullster
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
  perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
  as valid).
A perfume molecule is typically some sort of cyclic aromatic molecular
weight around 80-300 amu. Some lighter and some much heavier.
A virus is a mixture of RNA and protein and very much heavier.
The ratio of their typical masses is more like 10^6 (back of envelope)
(just for a single fragrance molecule and single virus particle)
Infective Covid particles are much heavier than that typically being in
a water aerosol with around 1um radius. They still float in the air for
a very long time which is why they are trouble in a confined space.
A typically infective aerosol droplet would be another 10^5 times
heavier still but that is still only of the order of 1pg (tiny).
These things are all so light that they drift in the air.
Post by thescullster
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
  perfume and Covid particles.
Brownian motion (no relation) jostles very small particles and keeps
them aloft for quite a while as do air currents. When the medics talk of
airborne transmission they mean these fine invisible aerosols rather
than visible sized droplets spray that you can see with visible light.
Individual virus particles have to get very lucky to infect you. The
probability of any one being successful is around 0.1% so when you get
exposed to around 700 then your odds are 50:50 for catching it. Give or
take a factor of three either way - no challenge tests have been done.
You could be very unlucky and catch it from a single virus but our
innate immune systems defences are really rather good otherwise we would
be succumbing to all sorts of opportunistic diseases (as happens to
people whose immune systems are compromised).
like me
Jimmy Stewart ...
2021-01-14 14:17:54 UTC
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Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
Phil
what about fag and vap smoke it travels for a good distance ? ...
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
2021-01-14 20:42:45 UTC
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Its all in the size of the droplets. Perfume is I think often based on some
substance that evaporates, and hence is not going to be carrying virus.
However coughs and exhalations when speaking do give off larger droplets,
and a mask slows these down so they fall faster. That is why it need not be
a surgical mask, you are just trying to slow down the air.
Brian
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Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
Phil
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http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Rod Speed
2021-01-14 21:16:09 UTC
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Post by Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Its all in the size of the droplets. Perfume is I think often based on
some substance that evaporates, and hence is not going to be carrying
virus. However coughs and exhalations when speaking do give off larger
droplets, and a mask slows these down so they fall faster. That is why it
need not be a surgical mask, you are just trying to slow down the air.
Its much more complicated than that. Even full PPE isnt
necessarily enough and that proved by the very large
number of medical personnel who got infected in
hospitals in the second wave in Melbourne Australia.
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/why-did-so-many-victorian-healthcare-workers-get-infected/12967882
Post by Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Post by thescullster
Hi Guys
When out walking, it is quite common to be able to smell perfume
from a distance of 10m from the wearer.
This makes me think that Covid particles must be heavier than
perfume by a factor of 5 (if you accept the government's 2m rule
as valid).
Or is there another factor that plays into the airbornness of
perfume and Covid particles.
Phil
--
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http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Peeler
2021-01-14 21:52:21 UTC
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 08:16:09 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

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