Discussion:
TOT Electric cars will be cheaper to run
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alan_m
2021-06-24 07:50:43 UTC
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I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.

Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
The Natural Philosopher
2021-06-24 07:59:16 UTC
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Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
They believe anything GreenCentral™ tells them
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
Theo
2021-06-24 09:43:54 UTC
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Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Even if the electricity was taxed the same per joule as petrol and diesel,
and road tax was the same, they would still win:

- electric cars are more efficient at turning source energy into motion.
In petrol terms they're equivalent to ~100mpg (100mpg = 0.3kWh/mile)[1]

- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.

So yes, they are cheaper to run.

Theo

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent
Max Demian
2021-06-24 10:38:12 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Even if the electricity was taxed the same per joule as petrol and diesel,
- electric cars are more efficient at turning source energy into motion.
In petrol terms they're equivalent to ~100mpg (100mpg = 0.3kWh/mile)[1]
That's because electric energy is low entropy like mechanical energy. A
well designed electric motor should be nearly 100% efficient, the
difference being heat loss. Whether the overall efficiency is more than
internal combustion depends of how efficient the electric generation is
and any losses in the power lines and chargers. Cost is an entirely
different matter as power costs are artificial.
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
--
Max Demian
The Natural Philosopher
2021-06-24 10:47:44 UTC
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Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms, door locks, tyres, brakes electronics of
one sort or another...common to BEVS as well
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx
Tim+
2021-06-24 12:08:01 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms, door locks, tyres, brakes electronics of
one sort or another...common to BEVS as well
But the brakes on an EV are scarcely used. As they use regenerative
braking most of the time brake components last far longer that in ICE
vehicles. After 12,000 miles I’m enjoying not having my alloys covered in
brake dust.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Andrew
2021-06-24 16:10:48 UTC
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Post by Tim+
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms, door locks, tyres, brakes electronics of
one sort or another...common to BEVS as well
But the brakes on an EV are scarcely used. As they use regenerative
braking most of the time brake components last far longer that in ICE
vehicles. After 12,000 miles I’m enjoying not having my alloys covered in
brake dust.
Tim
The downside is your disks will acquire more surface rust which will
affect the life of pads and disks through lack of use. This will come
back to bite you at 3 years when an MOT is due.

EV's (and hybrids) have items that normal IC cars don't have, such
as the cooling system for the battery and power electronics.
Andy Bennet
2021-06-24 16:19:38 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms, door locks, tyres, brakes electronics of
one sort or another...common to BEVS as well
But the brakes on an EV are scarcely used.  As they use regenerative
braking most of the time brake components last far longer that in ICE
vehicles.  After 12,000 miles I’m enjoying not having my alloys
covered in
brake dust.
Tim
The downside is your disks will acquire more surface rust which will
affect the life of pads and disks through lack of use. This will come
back to bite you at 3 years when an MOT is due.
EV's (and hybrids)  have items that normal IC cars don't have, such
as the cooling system for the battery and power electronics.
Zoe's, and all VW MEB platform vehicles (Audi Q4, Skoda Enyaq, VW ID3,
ID4 and Cupra Born etc have rear drums to mitigate the lack-of-use
problems. They all have rear wheel drive/regen braking.
Andrew
2021-06-24 16:31:26 UTC
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Post by Andy Bennet
Post by Andrew
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms, door locks, tyres, brakes electronics of
one sort or another...common to BEVS as well
But the brakes on an EV are scarcely used.  As they use regenerative
braking most of the time brake components last far longer that in ICE
vehicles.  After 12,000 miles I’m enjoying not having my alloys
covered in
brake dust.
Tim
The downside is your disks will acquire more surface rust which will
affect the life of pads and disks through lack of use. This will come
back to bite you at 3 years when an MOT is due.
EV's (and hybrids)  have items that normal IC cars don't have, such
as the cooling system for the battery and power electronics.
Zoe's, and all VW MEB platform vehicles (Audi Q4, Skoda Enyaq, VW ID3,
ID4 and Cupra Born etc have rear drums to mitigate the lack-of-use
problems. They all have rear wheel drive/regen braking.
Drums are a pain to service. The automatic adjusters are a weak link.
The seals on the pistons seem to be a lot less reliable than the piston
seals on a caliper.

Fine if you treat them like 'throwaway cars' and never keep them more
than 7 years-ish
Max Demian
2021-06-24 13:29:01 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms,
What's they?

door locks,

Never had probs
Post by The Natural Philosopher
tyres,
True of both car types.

brakes electronics of
Post by The Natural Philosopher
one sort or another...
Electronic brakes? Whatever next?

common to BEVS as well
--
Max Demian
Andrew
2021-06-24 16:07:15 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated well;
in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required very
little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms, door locks, tyres, brakes electronics of
one sort or another...common to BEVS as well
which are never serviced because apart from changing brake fluid
there is nothing serviceable.
You invoice might shaoe some bullshit entries like "oil flush treatment"
but absolutely nothing will have been done. Got this info from my
retired MOT-tester/garage owner. spraying some spray grease on the
door lock strikers takes 30 seconds. Whoopee.
alan_m
2021-06-24 16:41:13 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Max Demian
Post by Theo
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters, air
filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc etc.
Modern ICE cars require very little servicing if they're treated
well; in fact, since I started driving cars in 1974, my cars required
very little. And EV batteries are expensive to replace.
And a huge amount of service costs on older vehicles are things like
window regulator mechanisms, door locks, tyres, brakes electronics of
one sort or another...common to BEVS as well
which are never serviced because apart from changing brake fluid
there is nothing serviceable.
You invoice might shaoe some bullshit entries like "oil flush treatment"
but absolutely nothing will have been done. Got this info from my
retired MOT-tester/garage owner. spraying some spray grease on the
door lock strikers takes 30 seconds. Whoopee.
+1
A garage local to me lists all the things they will do on a service.
They have different levels of service, each with a different cost.

Apart from oil and filter changes most of what they list as extra on the
more expensive service are somewhat minor... check washer fluid level
... check operation of interior lights ... lubricate hinges/locks ...
check mirrors ... check door locking etc. Many of the "extra" visual
checks are probably covered cheaper with a MOT - a service they also
provide.

The true running cost (including their green credentials) of a EV
vehicles may not be known until a significant number appear on the "used
car" market after, say, 10 years use.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
jon
2021-06-24 12:15:05 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Even if the electricity was taxed the same per joule as petrol and diesel,
- electric cars are more efficient at turning source energy into motion.
In petrol terms they're equivalent to ~100mpg (100mpg = 0.3kWh/mile)[1]
- electric cars require less servicing - no oil changes, oil filters,
air filters, spark plugs, clutches, timing belts, DPFs, exhausts, etc
etc.
So yes, they are cheaper to run.
Theo
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent
Except for a £2000 replacement for an inverter.
R D S
2021-06-24 09:55:57 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Exactly the same as happened with diesel.
Chris Hogg
2021-06-24 11:59:29 UTC
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Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Of course they believe it. It's part of the religion. Like all things
green, the true costs are glossed over or ignored, like the cost of
providing back-up generation for renewables, or in the case of EVs,
the cost of replacing the battery every few years.
--
Chris
RJH
2021-06-24 15:24:15 UTC
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Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Don't know - and dread to think. My best guess is that the government will try
to tax electricity used for vehicle charging to more or less replace the
income lost from fuel tax. This would be very gradual - ICE vehicles aren't
going anywhere in a hurry.
--
Cheers, Rob
Tim+
2021-06-24 15:29:48 UTC
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Post by RJH
Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Don't know - and dread to think. My best guess is that the government will try
to tax electricity used for vehicle charging
How are they going to know? It would involve retrofitting meters to all the
existing home charge points in existence. I could get by just plugging my
car into a 13amp socket if I needed to.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
alan_m
2021-06-24 15:56:55 UTC
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Post by Tim+
How are they going to know? It would involve retrofitting meters to all the
existing home charge points in existence. I could get by just plugging my
car into a 13amp socket if I needed to.
Tim
£500 added to your annual council tax if you have a home charging point?

£x tax per unit for public charging points.

Road pricing?

Road fund tax increased on all electric vehicles to, say. £700 per annum
(you will not have the choice of an alternative _new_ car if
manufacturers are not producing ICE vehicles)?

Extra sales tax on both new and used vehicles.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Tim+
2021-06-24 16:03:58 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Post by Tim+
How are they going to know? It would involve retrofitting meters to all the
existing home charge points in existence. I could get by just plugging my
car into a 13amp socket if I needed to.
Tim
£500 added to your annual council tax if you have a home charging point?
Which would push more people towards a less safe charging method (eg, a 13
amp socket).
Post by alan_m
£x tax per unit for public charging points.
Road pricing?
Road fund tax increased on all electric vehicles to, say. £700 per annum
(you will not have the choice of an alternative _new_ car if
manufacturers are not producing ICE vehicles)?
Extra sales tax on both new and used vehicles.
All those are possible/probable.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Andrew
2021-06-24 16:13:03 UTC
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Post by Tim+
Post by RJH
Post by alan_m
I've seen yet another interview with the "green lobby" where it was
stated that electric cars will benefit the pockets of those owning one
because they will be much cheaper to run (than petrol/diesel). One of
the benefits of the green economy in 2035 to 2050.
Do these people really believe that the government are going to give up
the income from fuel tax and not impose the equivalent on newer
technology once the take up starts hitting the government coffers?
Don't know - and dread to think. My best guess is that the government will try
to tax electricity used for vehicle charging
How are they going to know? It would involve retrofitting meters to all the
existing home charge points in existence. I could get by just plugging my
car into a 13amp socket if I needed to.
Tim
Err, that's what smart meters will be able do. Just another software
upgrade, which SMETS2 meters should be capable of.
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