electric versus petrol

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

you can buy 2nd hand Nissan leafs for short trips..... they are good
value for money apparently

Andrew

2021-10-14 17:10:28 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so
provided you don't need to regularly go long distance you
might be better off. On the other hand tyre wear will be
increased because of the constant weight of the battery
and insurance might be more??. On the plus side there
may be places where you can go and/or park simply
because you have an EV.

charles

2021-10-14 17:41:25 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

On the plus side there may be places where you can go and/or park simply
because you have an EV.

it's the green flash on the number plate that helps.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

ARW

2021-10-14 18:25:54 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

So how much was this car and what will it be worth in 5 years time?

And the range?

"Figures shown are for comparability purposes; only compare electric
range figures with other vehicles tested to the same technical
procedures. These figures may not reflect real life driving results,
which will depend upon a number of factors including the accessories
fitted (post-registration), variations in weather, driving styles,
vehicle load and the starting charge of the battery. Figures for battery
electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully
charged. Battery electric vehicles require mains electricity for
charging. Data correct at 1st January 2021. Choice of wheels and other
options may affect consumption and range data."

So not 330 miles with the air con or heater on.

--

Adam

fred

2021-10-15 13:43:03 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

So how much was this car and what will it be worth in 5 years time?
And the range?
"Figures shown are for comparability purposes; only compare electric
range figures with other vehicles tested to the same technical
procedures. These figures may not reflect real life driving results,
which will depend upon a number of factors including the accessories
fitted (post-registration), variations in weather, driving styles,
vehicle load and the starting charge of the battery. Figures for battery
electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully
charged. Battery electric vehicles require mains electricity for
charging. Data correct at 1st January 2021. Choice of wheels and other
options may affect consumption and range data."
So not 330 miles with the air con or heater on.
--
Adam

Range anxiety is so last year. The average UK motorists daily mileage is very low. so overnight top ups at home are the answer. Yes I know all about those who cant access home charging etc. Lifes a bitch

The Natural Philosopher

2021-10-15 14:55:57 UTC

Post by fred
Range anxiety is so last year. The average UK motorists daily mileage
is very low. so overnight top ups at home are the answer. Yes I know
all about those who cant access home charging etc. Lifes a bitch

The problem is not average mileage. It is peak mileage.

You have to design for worst cases.

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

Andrew

2021-10-16 16:56:03 UTC

Post by fred

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

So how much was this car and what will it be worth in 5 years time?
And the range?
"Figures shown are for comparability purposes; only compare electric
range figures with other vehicles tested to the same technical
procedures. These figures may not reflect real life driving results,
which will depend upon a number of factors including the accessories
fitted (post-registration), variations in weather, driving styles,
vehicle load and the starting charge of the battery. Figures for battery
electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully
charged. Battery electric vehicles require mains electricity for
charging. Data correct at 1st January 2021. Choice of wheels and other
options may affect consumption and range data."
So not 330 miles with the air con or heater on.
--
Adam

Range anxiety is so last year. The average UK motorists daily mileage
is very low. so overnight top ups at home are the answer. Yes I know
all about those who cant access home charging etc. Lifes a bitch

Normal daily mileage may be low. But what of the family holiday, the
trip to a family wedding or funeral, etc. Suddenly the same vehicle
needs to do a high mileage and quite likely without a long enough stop
to charge, anywhere that they want to stop.

There are hire cars, or ryanair for those :-)

charles

2021-10-16 17:23:38 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

So how much was this car and what will it be worth in 5 years time?
And the range?
"Figures shown are for comparability purposes; only compare electric
range figures with other vehicles tested to the same technical
procedures. These figures may not reflect real life driving results,
which will depend upon a number of factors including the accessories
fitted (post-registration), variations in weather, driving styles,
vehicle load and the starting charge of the battery. Figures for battery
electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully
charged. Battery electric vehicles require mains electricity for
charging. Data correct at 1st January 2021. Choice of wheels and other
options may affect consumption and range data."
So not 330 miles with the air con or heater on.
--
Adam

Range anxiety is so last year. The average UK motorists daily mileage
is very low. so overnight top ups at home are the answer. Yes I know
all about those who cant access home charging etc. Lifes a bitch

There are hire cars, or ryanair for those :-)

Hie cars are a bit difficult if you're over 80, as I am. Not sure RyanAir
would get me to the Western Isles

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Roland Perry

2021-10-16 17:50:32 UTC

There are hire cars, or ryanair for those :-)

Hie cars are a bit difficult if you're over 80, as I am. Not sure RyanAir
would get me to the Western Isles

Hire cars are usually a no-no for short notice trips, unless perhaps you
live near an airport and could hire one from there.

--
Roland Perry

ARW

2021-10-16 19:42:45 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

So how much was this car and what will it be worth in 5 years time?
And the range?
"Figures shown are for comparability purposes; only compare electric
range figures with other vehicles tested to the same technical
procedures. These figures may not reflect real life driving results,
which will depend upon a number of factors including the accessories
fitted (post-registration), variations in weather, driving styles,
vehicle load and the starting charge of the battery. Figures for battery
electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully
charged. Battery electric vehicles require mains electricity for
charging. Data correct at 1st January 2021. Choice of wheels and other
options may affect consumption and range data."
So not 330 miles with the air con or heater on.
--
Adam

Range anxiety is so last year. The average UK motorists daily mileage
is very low. so overnight top ups at home are the answer. Yes I know
all about those who cant access home charging etc. Lifes a bitch

There are hire cars, or ryanair for those :-)

You mean ICE hire cars?

Well if you are going to do 144 miles[1] a week plodding around town in
an EV to save the environment and then rent (at some cost) an ICE to go
to Cornwall on holiday........

[1] From here as an average car mileage PA

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-car-mileage-uk

I only did 4894 miles in my car in the last 12 months. The thing is I
only used it about for about 20 journeys.

--

Adam

Tim+

2021-10-14 19:14:21 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

On the plus side there may be places where you can go and/or park simply
because you have an EV.

Well, I guess if you count charging bays whilst you are charging, then
possibly yes. Do you count petrol station forecourts as special parking
bays?

Post by charles
it's the green flash on the number plate that helps.

The green flash counts for nothing, at present. It’s just a declaration
that you’re in a full EV, not an ICE or a hybrid.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Peeler

2021-10-14 20:09:02 UTC

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 06:06:51 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Marland revealing the senile sociopath's pathology:
"You have mentioned Alexa in a couple of threads recently, it is not a real
woman you know even if it is the only thing with a female name that stays
around around while you talk it to it.
Poor sad git who has to resort to Usenet and electronic devices for any
interaction as all real people run a mile to get away from you boring them
to death."
MID: <***@mid.individual.net>

Andrew

2021-10-16 16:54:55 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the
other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of
the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's
Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

And if the MAzda 6's reputation for eating tyres is correct you
may be making a saving there too :-)

charles

2021-10-16 17:22:20 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years,
for petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you
don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On
the other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant
weight of the battery and insurance might be more??.

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last
week's Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

And if the MAzda 6's reputation for eating tyres is correct you may be
making a saving there too :-)

My tyres, all but one, died from punctures. The one that wore out did so at
40k miles, which I'd have thought reasonable.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Chris J Dixon

2021-10-17 06:51:21 UTC

Post by charles
My tyres, all but one, died from punctures. The one that wore out did so at
40k miles, which I'd have thought reasonable.

A combination of doing low mileage, buying a car which had sat at
a dealers for a long time, and lockdown, means that my car has
tyres dated 2015, with currently less than 7000 miles on them.

At this rate they will degrade before they wear out.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Andrew

2021-10-17 18:57:42 UTC

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by charles
My tyres, all but one, died from punctures. The one that wore out did so at
40k miles, which I'd have thought reasonable.

A combination of doing low mileage, buying a car which had sat at
a dealers for a long time, and lockdown, means that my car has
tyres dated 2015, with currently less than 7000 miles on them.
At this rate they will degrade before they wear out.
Chris

Since when was tyre age part of the MOT though ?

Steve Walker

2021-10-17 22:40:14 UTC

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by charles
My tyres, all but one, died from punctures. The one that wore out did so at
40k miles, which I'd have thought reasonable.

A combination of doing low mileage, buying a car which had sat at
a dealers for a long time, and lockdown, means that my car has
tyres dated 2015, with currently less than 7000 miles on them.
At this rate they will degrade before they wear out.
Chris

Since when was tyre age part of the MOT though ?

There have been suggestions of adding it, but even without, aged tyres
begin to split eventually and fail MOTs that way.

From experience, a tyre allowed to stand flat, exposed to the sun,
fails much more quickly than those kept in a garage or kept pumped up.

Chris J Dixon

2021-10-18 08:32:36 UTC

Post by Chris J Dixon
A combination of doing low mileage, buying a car which had sat at
a dealers for a long time, and lockdown, means that my car has
tyres dated 2015, with currently less than 7000 miles on them.
At this rate they will degrade before they wear out.

Since when was tyre age part of the MOT though ?

For private cars, not yet, though if deterioration is apparent,
it could fail.

A different story however:

<https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/use-of-tyres-aged-more-than-10-years-on-goods-vehicles-buses-and-coaches/tyre-age-restrictions-for-good-vehicles-buses-coaches-and-minibuses>

"It is illegal for the front (steering) axle or axles of:

goods vehicles with a gross mass more than 3.5 tonnes
buses
coaches
minibuses and also to the rear axle, or axles, unless equipped
with twin wheels

to use tyres aged more than 10-years."

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Roland Perry

2021-10-18 14:15:38 UTC

goods vehicles with a gross mass more than 3.5 tonnes buses coaches
minibuses and also to the rear axle, or axles, unless equipped with
twin wheels
to use tyres aged more than 10-years."

Is that aged 10yrs since manufacture, or 10yrs since being first fitted?

--
Roland Perry

Steve Walker

2021-10-14 21:48:25 UTC

Post by Andrew
At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so
provided you don't need to regularly go long distance you
might be better off. On the other hand tyre wear will be
increased because of the constant weight of the battery
and insurance might be more??. On the plus side there
may be places where you can go and/or park simply
because you have an EV.

When I've done insurance comparisons, a Leaf comes in about the same as a
similar petrol car.
With electric there's much less servicing costs - no oil changes, clutches,
ATF changes, exhausts, DPFs, much reduced brake wear so fewer pad changes.
It's basically change the pollen filter and that's it. There are the usual
suspension repairs (CV joints etc) and occasional brake fluid changes like
other cars.

While I agree on some of those, my car is 9 years old and my wife's is
16 - neither have needed clutch changes, replacement exhausts or
transmission oil changes yet.

I would actually like to get an electric car, but at the moment it just
wouldn't work for us. We need one car to be the family car, capable of
carrying 5 people, plus luggage and towing at the same time, travelling
long distances at a moment's notice (more than once we have received
word of a family death in the evening and had to get from Manchester to
the West coast of Ireland by the following morning for the funeral).

As we have two cars (necessary, as I need one for work and my wife is
disabled), a small electric one would make great sense for the second
one. However, her car does very few miles these days, so the electric
one would have to be my daily driver to make any sense, but she simply
would not drive a large car at all, so that option isn't open.

2021-10-15 14:23:24 UTC

With electric there's much less servicing costs - no oil changes,
clutches, ATF changes, exhausts, DPFs, much reduced brake wear so fewer
pad changes. It's basically change the pollen filter and that's it.
There are the usual suspension repairs (CV joints etc) and occasional
brake fluid changes like other cars.

On a low milage car, I'd not expect to have to fit a new clutch in 10
years, assuming a reasonable driver. ATF is often now 'lifetime'.
The last car I owned for a long time (about 15 years) never needed a new
exhaust.

My Peugeot 308 has done 186,000 miles in 13 years and is still on its
original clutch - unless it was replaced within the first 18,000 miles of
the car's life, before I bought it, which is highly unlikely. I've never had
a car before that has done more that about 80,000 before it needed a new
clutch. The bite point is *beginning* to get a bit high, but there is no
hint of slipping.

Steve Walker

2021-10-15 16:01:01 UTC

Post by NY

My Peugeot 308 has done 186,000 miles in 13 years and is still on its
original clutch - unless it was replaced within the first 18,000 miles
of the car's life, before I bought it, which is highly unlikely. I've
never had a car before that has done more that about 80,000 before it
needed a new clutch. The bite point is *beginning* to get a bit high,
but there is no hint of slipping.

On the other hand, I tend to keep cars long enough that they end up
between 100,000 and 150,000 miles and the only one that has needed a
clutch has been my very first car - which needed one when I bought it
... however, it was four years old and had been a driving school car!

Rod Speed

2021-10-15 23:10:47 UTC

Post by NY

My Peugeot 308 has done 186,000 miles in 13 years and is still on its
original clutch -

I drove my Mark I Golf every day for 45 years, unknown mileage
because the speedo cable broke after about 30 years and I
couldn’t be arsed to replace it Never needed a new clutch.

Post by NY
unless it was replaced within the first 18,000 miles of the car's life,
before I bought it, which is highly unlikely. I've never had a car before
that has done more that about 80,000 before it needed a new clutch.

Because of the way you drive.

Post by NY
The bite point is *beginning* to get a bit high, but there is no hint of
slipping.

Peeler

2021-10-16 08:03:07 UTC

On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:10:47 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID: <f9056fe6-1479-40ff-8cc0-***@googlegroups.com>

Andrew

2021-10-16 17:02:39 UTC

Neighbour sold his 2005 Astra 1.6 petrol estate last year with 210,000
on the clock. Yeomans, Portsmouth gave him £200 p/x against a new
Quashqai. He had it from new, initially a company car, and other than
wearable items nothing needed replacing. Original clutch and all
suspension bits still ok at 210K miles. It's all down to how you drive.

Theo

2021-10-17 20:35:04 UTC

With electric there's much less servicing costs - no oil changes, clutches,
ATF changes, exhausts, DPFs, much reduced brake wear so fewer pad changes.
It's basically change the pollen filter and that's it. There are the usual
suspension repairs (CV joints etc) and occasional brake fluid changes like
other cars.

When the winter range of an EV drops due to an ageing battery, what are
the comparative costs of battery replacement and ICE servicing over that
same period? After all, the value of the EV will plummet due to
battery-replacement costs, so to keep its value a new battery will be
required.

That's something that's hard to answer. The EVs that are ~10 years old now
are first generation vehicles with first generation flaws. It varies a lot
between manufacturers based on their designs (Nissan has awful longevity,
Tesla is pretty good). If you buy a new EV today you're getting one with 10
years more improvement in battery longevity.

While there are swaps for Leaf batteries, I would expect that any EV you buy
new today won't suffer sufficient degradation to make it a problem.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/#jp-carousel-65298
shows about 90% capacity for Tesla model S and X out to 250,000km.

That said, I wouldn't buy an EV without any excess range for the journeys
you need to do. If your EV has some range left over then you can handle
some loss of capacity.

The alternative is simply to sell your EV on as a fully functional but lower
range vehicle. Maybe that will suit somebody who only wants it for shopping
trips rather than motorway runs. There is no reason to scrap it when it
still works for some people. You may take a hit in value, but at that age
the vehicle is fully depreciated and only being sold on condition anyway.

Theo

Andrew

2021-10-18 14:43:25 UTC

Post by Theo

With electric there's much less servicing costs - no oil changes, clutches,
ATF changes, exhausts, DPFs, much reduced brake wear so fewer pad changes.
It's basically change the pollen filter and that's it. There are the usual
suspension repairs (CV joints etc) and occasional brake fluid changes like
other cars.

The original Leaf's had no battery cooling systems. Even Toyota hybrids
have this feature.

Michael Chare

2021-10-14 22:50:34 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

Battery life maybe an issue if you are expecting to keep the car that
long. The batteries ar expensive to replace. I hope that you can charge
the car when it is on your drive. I don't like handling electric things
in the wet when it is raining.

Andrew

2021-10-16 17:05:26 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years,
for petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

Avoid fast-charging and the battery will last longer. It's the same
with any rechargeable battery.

charles

2021-10-16 17:42:24 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years,
for petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

Battery life maybe an issue if you are expecting to keep the car that
long. The batteries ar expensive to replace. I hope that you can
charge the car when it is on your drive. I don't like handling
electric things in the wet when it is raining.

Avoid fast-charging and the battery will last longer. It's the same with
any rechargeable battery.

My Enyaq tells me to only charge to 80% to improve battery life.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

PeterC

2021-10-17 08:06:18 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years,
for petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

Battery life maybe an issue if you are expecting to keep the car that
long. The batteries ar expensive to replace. I hope that you can
charge the car when it is on your drive. I don't like handling
electric things in the wet when it is raining.

Avoid fast-charging and the battery will last longer. It's the same with
any rechargeable battery.

My Enyaq tells me to only charge to 80% to improve battery life.

Can it be set to do that? It would be better if that's the default but can
be overriden.

--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

charles

2021-10-17 08:46:46 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years,
for petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.
Bill

Battery life maybe an issue if you are expecting to keep the car that
long. The batteries ar expensive to replace. I hope that you can
charge the car when it is on your drive. I don't like handling
electric things in the wet when it is raining.

Avoid fast-charging and the battery will last longer. It's the same
with any rechargeable battery.

My Enyaq tells me to only charge to 80% to improve battery life.

Can it be set to do that? It would be better if that's the default but can
be overriden.

Not sure, There's a lot in the owner's manual to read & understand.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Rod Speed

2021-10-15 01:11:41 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

You can find reports of that type.
https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf

That utterly mangles the real story by only looking at cars
bought new.

If you're only getting groceries with the car, then that's
an ideal use of BEVs. You can program the home charger to fill the car to
only 70% charge, and that will improve the degradation properties of the
battery pack.

That isn't necessarily his car usage, he might be talking
about quite infrequent longer distance trips.

The charge cycles on a pack, is a function of chemistry. Most
countries will have Lithium Cobalt chemistry in the car. And that's
probably what the report above is based on. The Chinese, for their
domestic cars, use Fairy Light batteries of Lithium Iron Phosphate.
These have half the capacity of Cobalt, but they also have
an extended number of charge cycles. Such a chemistry means
that potentially, a ten year old car will have better resale
value. Even if the range of a Chinese domestic car, only
suits driving to work.
You have to check in at the "forum" for the brand of car you
have in mind, to see what the users say about it. Someone buying
your used car later, is going to be reading the same forum posts
to see what people have run into. If there is an uncommon failure
mode on the car, as the years pass, that will receive more
attention.
And they make tables for easy comparison. So you can
see the claims of each brand. The Chevrolet Bolt and
Nissan LEAF might be suited to grocery runs. After ten years,
there should still be enough battery capacity left to get
groceries for some time to come. They're not exactly
Paris to Dakar rally cars.

But you don’t know that that’s how he plans to use the car.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/344001/compare-evs/
The size of the wheels, affects fuel economy, which is
why some cars have two entries (two different wheel sizes).
A solid front grille and wheel covers, help improve highway
wind resistance.

Peeler

2021-10-15 09:35:47 UTC

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 12:11:41 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 87-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

Dave Plowman (News)

2021-10-15 14:00:21 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

I'd say impossible to predict. With energy prices on the move. And the
inevitable - as income from petrol etc duty decreases, they'll have to get
it back one way or another.

Saw on telly yesterday that freight train companies are switching to
diesel on electrified lines, as it's cheaper than electricity. Of course
their fuel will be duty free.

--
*If you can read this, thank a teecher

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Roland Perry

2021-10-16 14:58:25 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

I'd say impossible to predict. With energy prices on the move. And the
inevitable - as income from petrol etc duty decreases, they'll have to get
it back one way or another.
Saw on telly yesterday that freight train companies are switching to
diesel on electrified lines, as it's cheaper than electricity. Of course
their fuel will be duty free.

One freight train company is mothballing 10% of its fleet - twenty
ageing AC locos.

--
Roland Perry

newshound

2021-10-16 15:55:10 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

I'd say impossible to predict. With energy prices on the move. And the
inevitable - as income from petrol etc duty decreases, they'll have to get
it back one way or another.
Saw on telly yesterday that freight train companies are switching to
diesel on electrified lines, as it's cheaper than electricity. Of course
their fuel will be duty free.

Although I see that off-road construction vehicles are going to have to
move on to white diesel, only agricultural vehicles will be allowed to
stay on red.

Andrew

2021-10-16 17:09:23 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

I'd say impossible to predict. With energy prices on the move. And the
inevitable - as income from petrol etc duty decreases, they'll have to get
it back one way or another.
Saw on telly yesterday that freight train companies are switching to
diesel on electrified lines, as it's cheaper than electricity. Of course
their fuel will be duty free.

Although I see that off-road construction vehicles are going to have to
move on to white diesel, only agricultural vehicles will be allowed to
stay on red.

It's going to be tricky to prove that they aren't still using
it unless they are caught with red derv in the tank, because the
chemical test will presumably fail on every JCB that has ever
been run on red diesel ?

Roland Perry

2021-10-16 17:55:24 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

I'd say impossible to predict. With energy prices on the move. And the
inevitable - as income from petrol etc duty decreases, they'll have
to get
it back one way or another.
Saw on telly yesterday that freight train companies are switching to
diesel on electrified lines, as it's cheaper than electricity. Of course
their fuel will be duty free.

Although I see that off-road construction vehicles are going to have
to move on to white diesel, only agricultural vehicles will be
allowed to stay on red.

Round here every other "agricultural vehicle" is a JCB, pulling a
trailer full of crops. Assuming these Fastrac+trailer combos are classed
as agricultural rather than off-road HGVs.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry

2021-10-17 04:54:29 UTC

Post by williamwright
I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for
petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

I'd say impossible to predict. With energy prices on the move. And the
inevitable - as income from petrol etc duty decreases, they'll have
to get
it back one way or another.
Saw on telly yesterday that freight train companies are switching to
diesel on electrified lines, as it's cheaper than electricity. Of course
their fuel will be duty free.

Although I see that off-road construction vehicles are going to have
to move on to white diesel, only agricultural vehicles will be
allowed to stay on red.

Round here every other "agricultural vehicle" is a JCB, pulling a
trailer full of crops. Assuming these Fastrac+trailer combos are
classed as agricultural rather than off-road HGVs.

From the HMRC website, it doesn't look to me as if they will be included
(and aren't mentioned specifically as one of the 'losers'):

for vehicles and machinery used in agriculture, horticulture,
fish farming and forestry. This includes allowing vehicles used
for agriculture to be used for cutting verges and hedges, snow
clearance and gritting roads

Unless trucking produce 20 miles across the county *is* agriculture.

ISTR in the past that rules for tractors (maybe construction and use,
driving and so on) exempted them on trips from fields to nearby
associated farmyards. But that's not the operational scheme I see much
of today (the distances are far greater).

These combos are supposed to be driven no faster than 64kph (40mph). But
there's one operator I see with them hurtling along at 50mph on my
speedo) which would be a limiter set at 80kph.

--
Roland Perry

PeterC

2021-10-17 08:05:17 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
Round here every other "agricultural vehicle" is a JCB, pulling a
trailer full of crops. Assuming these Fastrac+trailer combos are
classed as agricultural rather than off-road HGVs.

From the HMRC website, it doesn't look to me as if they will be included
for vehicles and machinery used in agriculture, horticulture,
fish farming and forestry. This includes allowing vehicles used
for agriculture to be used for cutting verges and hedges, snow
clearance and gritting roads
Unless trucking produce 20 miles across the county *is* agriculture.
ISTR in the past that rules for tractors (maybe construction and use,
driving and so on) exempted them on trips from fields to nearby
associated farmyards. But that's not the operational scheme I see much
of today (the distances are far greater).

The 'local' farmer's yard is about 6 miles from the fields here. Definitely
'associated' but 'local'? - I suppose it's relative.

--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Roland Perry

2021-10-17 11:23:34 UTC

Post by PeterC

The 'local' farmer's yard is about 6 miles from the fields here. Definitely
'associated' but 'local'? - I suppose it's relative.

I'd class it as local if it was just the (same as the grower's) farmer's
yard. But not if it's some kind of processing/packing plant 15-20 miles
way.

--
Roland Perry

Tim Lamb

2021-10-17 17:52:47 UTC

Post by PeterC

The 'local' farmer's yard is about 6 miles from the fields here. Definitely
'associated' but 'local'? - I suppose it's relative.

I'd class it as local if it was just the (same as the grower's)
farmer's yard. But not if it's some kind of processing/packing plant
15-20 miles way.

I think this is up to date:-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuels-for-use-in-vehicles-excise-notice-75#ad
ditional-information-on-the-use-of-agricultural-vehicles-on-the-road

--
Tim Lamb

Roland Perry

2021-10-18 05:14:52 UTC

Post by Tim Lamb

Post by PeterC

The 'local' farmer's yard is about 6 miles from the fields here. Definitely
'associated' but 'local'? - I suppose it's relative.

I'd class it as local if it was just the (same as the grower's)
farmer's yard. But not if it's some kind of processing/packing plant
15-20 miles way.

I think this is up to date:-

<https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuels-for-use-in-vehicles-excise-notice-
75#additional-information-on-the-use-of-agricultural-vehicles-on-the-
road>

Thanks. So no limit on the distance you can travel as long as it's to a
market or processing plant, but if over 15 miles you might need an HGV
licence.

A rather naive use of the term "your farm" when so many nowadays are
sprawling co-operatives.

Use of red diesel limited to vehicles operated by one's own staff, not
third-party hauliers. I could see some issues with that if drivers are
self-employed (I don't know how common that is).

--
Roland Perry

Tim Lamb

2021-10-18 08:49:08 UTC

snip

Post by Tim Lamb

Post by PeterC
The 'local' farmer's yard is about 6 miles from the fields here. Definitely
'associated' but 'local'? - I suppose it's relative.

I'd class it as local if it was just the (same as the grower's)
farmer's yard. But not if it's some kind of processing/packing plant
15-20 miles way.

I think this is up to date:-

<https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuels-for-use-in-vehicles-excise-notice-
75#additional-information-on-the-use-of-agricultural-vehicles-on-the-
road>
Thanks. So no limit on the distance you can travel as long as it's to a
market or processing plant, but if over 15 miles you might need an HGV
licence.
A rather naive use of the term "your farm" when so many nowadays are
sprawling co-operatives.
Use of red diesel limited to vehicles operated by one's own staff, not
third-party hauliers. I could see some issues with that if drivers are
self-employed (I don't know how common that is).

Also, much arable farming is done by contractors so certainly little
*ownership* link with the actual land.

As a beneficiary of *agricultural support* but also a taxpayer I have
slightly confused views. In one form or another, this has been going on
since WW2: benefiting the public with slightly cheaper food and keeping
marginal land in production. Changes are ahead thanks to Brexit....
subsidised tree planting instead of crops!

--
Tim Lamb

charles

2021-10-18 10:46:51 UTC

Post by Tim Lamb
snip

Post by Tim Lamb

Post by PeterC
The 'local' farmer's yard is about 6 miles from the fields here. Definitely
'associated' but 'local'? - I suppose it's relative.

I'd class it as local if it was just the (same as the grower's)
farmer's yard. But not if it's some kind of processing/packing plant
15-20 miles way.

I think this is up to date:-

<https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuels-for-use-in-vehicles-excise-notice-
75#additional-information-on-the-use-of-agricultural-vehicles-on-the-
road>
Thanks. So no limit on the distance you can travel as long as it's to a
market or processing plant, but if over 15 miles you might need an HGV
licence.
A rather naive use of the term "your farm" when so many nowadays are
sprawling co-operatives.
Use of red diesel limited to vehicles operated by one's own staff, not
third-party hauliers. I could see some issues with that if drivers are
self-employed (I don't know how common that is).

Also, much arable farming is done by contractors so certainly little
*ownership* link with the actual land.
As a beneficiary of *agricultural support* but also a taxpayer I have
slightly confused views. In one form or another, this has been going on
since WW2: benefiting the public with slightly cheaper food and keeping
marginal land in production. Changes are ahead thanks to Brexit....
subsidised tree planting instead of crops!

and we can all eat trees?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Tim Streater

2021-10-17 08:34:57 UTC

Post by Roland Perry
From the HMRC website, it doesn't look to me as if they will be included
for vehicles and machinery used in agriculture, horticulture,
fish farming and forestry. This includes allowing vehicles used
for agriculture to be used for cutting verges and hedges, snow
clearance and gritting roads
Unless trucking produce 20 miles across the county *is* agriculture.
ISTR in the past that rules for tractors (maybe construction and use,
driving and so on) exempted them on trips from fields to nearby
associated farmyards. But that's not the operational scheme I see much
of today (the distances are far greater).

I, OTOH, do. This hapens as the combine goes round from field to field,
locally (i.e., within 3-4 miles in any direction). The tractors towing large
grain trucks follow the combine around the field, getting filled up on the go
by the combine as it reaps. The tractors then drive over to the farm (about 3
miles from us) which has the storage bins.

I expect in other areas they drive greater distances to the storage/drying
facility.

--
Britain sitting behind the protectionist wall of the Customs Union is doing absolutely nothing for the oppressed coffee bean growers of the developing world. How ironic then that the cappuccino-swilling hordes of Hove voted in large numbers to keep some of the world's poorest people and traders locked out of our markets.

Tom Bewick - Labour councillor in Brighton and Hove

Chris Hogg

2021-10-17 09:01:42 UTC

Post by Tim Streater

I, OTOH, do. This hapens as the combine goes round from field to field,
locally (i.e., within 3-4 miles in any direction). The tractors towing large
grain trucks follow the combine around the field, getting filled up on the go
by the combine as it reaps. The tractors then drive over to the farm (about 3
miles from us) which has the storage bins.
I expect in other areas they drive greater distances to the storage/drying
facility.

ditto harvesting grass or maize for silage.

--
Chris

ARW

2021-10-16 18:13:17 UTC