Discussion:
Thermal insulation and soundproofing
(too old to reply)
D.M. Procida
2009-01-15 08:50:56 UTC
Permalink
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.

It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.

It's a brick building, and will have internal dry walls for the
insulation.

What soundproofing products for such construction are readily available
in the UK?

Daniele
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robgraham
2009-01-15 09:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
It's a brick building, and will have internal dry walls for the
insulation.
What soundproofing products for such construction are readily available
in the UK?
Daniele
--
Your chance to own a nearly immaculate BMW C1 (Cardiff, UK)
<http://search.ebay.co.uk/220341650190>
Daniele
I can't offer you assistance on the sound proofing - I guess from your
previous posts on tape recorder repairs that you are making a sound
studio. It might be relevent to say if you are trying to keep sound
in or out !!

On the insulation front there is the likes of Kingspan which being
solid - unlike fibreglass - may also be effective in sound
deadening.

One thing to be aware of is that there should be a damp proof membrane
to prevent moist air getting into the insulation. I've recently fully
insulated a small workshop and have had to fit humidity sensing
extraction as there was a condensation problem when I had finished
working in it and put the heating off.

Rob
dennis@home
2009-01-15 10:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
It's a brick building, and will have internal dry walls for the
insulation.
What soundproofing products for such construction are readily available
in the UK?
Concrete, brick all very good at sound proofing.
You just want as much mass as possible so the sound can't escape (cellars
tend to be pretty sound proof as far as the walls go).

Or do you mean you want to absorb the sound so it doesn't sound like you are
in a brick building?
Then you need to look at fibre board, curtains, etc.
m***@care2.com
2009-01-15 11:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
It's a brick building, and will have internal dry walls for the
insulation.
What soundproofing products for such construction are readily available
in the UK?
Daniele
The thicker the plasterboard the better. Rockwool filling in the
cavity both insulates and damps vibration.


NT
Dave Plowman (News)
2009-01-15 12:56:20 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
Indeed - apart from the word 'insulating' the two approaches are very
different.
Post by D.M. Procida
It's a brick building, and will have internal dry walls for the
insulation.
What soundproofing products for such construction are readily available
in the UK?
Basically you need to add mass to stop airborne sounds and some form of
decoupling to prevent structure borne ones.

A second stud wall (and ceiling) spaced away from the brick one by as far
as is practical with several layers of plasterboard might be your cheapest
route. Don't forget the doors - double heavy ones with an 'airlock'
between might be the easiest route. With good seals all round.
--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
m***@care2.com
2009-01-15 15:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
Indeed - apart from the word 'insulating' the two approaches are very
different.
Post by D.M. Procida
It's a brick building, and will have internal dry walls for the
insulation.
What soundproofing products for such construction are readily available
in the UK?
Basically you need to add mass to stop airborne sounds and some form of
decoupling to prevent structure borne ones.
A second stud wall (and ceiling) spaced away from the brick one by as far
as is practical with several layers of plasterboard might be your cheapest
route. Don't forget the doors - double heavy ones with an 'airlock'
between might be the easiest route. With good seals all round.
We dont really know how much NR Daniele wants, or how much trouble and
expense he's prepared to go to. It would help if the OP gave more
details re application, budget etc.


NT
m***@care2.com
2009-01-15 22:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@care2.com
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
Basically you need to add mass to stop airborne sounds and some form of
decoupling to prevent structure borne ones.
A second stud wall (and ceiling) spaced away from the brick one by as far
as is practical with several layers of plasterboard might be your cheapest
route.
Don't forget the doors - double heavy ones with an 'airlock'
between might be the easiest route. With good seals all round.
We dont really know how much NR Daniele wants, or how much trouble and
expense he's prepared to go to. It would help if the OP gave more
details re application, budget etc.
I want to prevent as much sound as possible from entering or leaving -
as Rob suggested, I'd like to build a little recording studio in there,
and don't want to upset the neighbours, even with a drummer playing.
I don't really have that much of a budget, but I do have plenty of time
and energy to throw at it instead, if there are any reasonable DIY
techniques. However, I do have carte blanche pretty much to do whatever
the hell I like in there, so it doesn't need to meet with anyone else's
approval or needs.
In the US - possibly here - you can get a viscoelastic polymer called
Green Glue, that you sandwich between plasterboards. Apparently this is
a viable way of damping them, and creating a non-resonant and sound
absorbant mass. That sounds like it might be a way forward.
Daniele
In that case you'll want to use all the options: a high mass second
leaf with thick plaster, decoupling it from the brick/block wall,
damping it and rockwool in the cavity to absorb airborne sound between
the 2 leaves. You can also put concrete blocks as weights on the
noggings.

You can get things like MLV (mass loaded vinyl), but they all cost
money.


NT
Rod
2009-01-15 22:28:00 UTC
Permalink
D.M. Procida wrote:
<>
In the US - possibly here - you can get a viscoelastic polymer called
Green Glue, that you sandwich between plasterboards. Apparently this is
a viable way of damping them, and creating a non-resonant and sound
absorbant mass. That sounds like it might be a way forward.
Daniele
<http://www.greenglue.co.uk/>
--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
D.M. Procida
2009-01-15 23:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rod
In the US - possibly here - you can get a viscoelastic polymer called
Green Glue, that you sandwich between plasterboards. Apparently this is
a viable way of damping them, and creating a non-resonant and sound
absorbant mass. That sounds like it might be a way forward.
Daniele
<http://www.greenglue.co.uk/>
My God that stuff is expensive.

One uses approximately 1 tube of ot per square metre; a case of 12 tubes
costs £161!

Daniele
--
Your chance to own a nearly immaculate BMW C1 (Cardiff, UK)
<http://search.ebay.co.uk/220341650190>
george (dicegeorge)
2009-01-16 16:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Re: Thermal insulation and soundproofing


Building another wall inside with brick or block
seems the cheapest solution to me...
with rockwool or sand in the gap.

But you'd lose 12ish inces of space.

I have a similar project on the dividing wall between the policelady
next door and my potential music room...

[g]
D.M. Procida
2009-01-15 20:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@care2.com
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
Basically you need to add mass to stop airborne sounds and some form of
decoupling to prevent structure borne ones.
A second stud wall (and ceiling) spaced away from the brick one by as far
as is practical with several layers of plasterboard might be your cheapest
route.
Don't forget the doors - double heavy ones with an 'airlock'
between might be the easiest route. With good seals all round.
We dont really know how much NR Daniele wants, or how much trouble and
expense he's prepared to go to. It would help if the OP gave more
details re application, budget etc.
I want to prevent as much sound as possible from entering or leaving -
as Rob suggested, I'd like to build a little recording studio in there,
and don't want to upset the neighbours, even with a drummer playing.

I don't really have that much of a budget, but I do have plenty of time
and energy to throw at it instead, if there are any reasonable DIY
techniques. However, I do have carte blanche pretty much to do whatever
the hell I like in there, so it doesn't need to meet with anyone else's
approval or needs.

In the US - possibly here - you can get a viscoelastic polymer called
Green Glue, that you sandwich between plasterboards. Apparently this is
a viable way of damping them, and creating a non-resonant and sound
absorbant mass. That sounds like it might be a way forward.

Daniele
--
Your chance to own a nearly immaculate BMW C1 (Cardiff, UK)
<http://search.ebay.co.uk/220341650190>
Dave Plowman (News)
2009-01-16 10:47:02 UTC
Permalink
In article
I want to prevent as much sound as possible from entering or leaving -
as Rob suggested, I'd like to build a little recording studio in there,
and don't want to upset the neighbours, even with a drummer playing.
To completely eliminate the sound of drums at full pelt ain't going to be
easy.

Place I used to work at had a very nice 24 track studio - large enough to
take a full orchestra. And you could still hear the drums outside the
double doors. And through the floor on occasions. If you have neighbours
who are used to peace and quiet - don't always have the radio etc on - I'd
say you're in trouble.
--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Mike
2009-01-16 18:52:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:47:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article
I want to prevent as much sound as possible from entering or leaving -
as Rob suggested, I'd like to build a little recording studio in there,
and don't want to upset the neighbours, even with a drummer playing.
To completely eliminate the sound of drums at full pelt ain't going to be
easy.
Sack the drummer and employ a drum machine DI'd into the mixing desk.

As well as not annoying your neighbours drum machines don't drink,
fart, blow up your toilets or drive your car into a swimming pool.


--
The Natural Philosopher
2009-01-16 21:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:47:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
In article
I want to prevent as much sound as possible from entering or leaving -
as Rob suggested, I'd like to build a little recording studio in there,
and don't want to upset the neighbours, even with a drummer playing.
To completely eliminate the sound of drums at full pelt ain't going to be
easy.
Sack the drummer and employ a drum machine DI'd into the mixing desk.
As well as not annoying your neighbours drum machines don't drink,
fart, blow up your toilets or drive your car into a swimming pool.
Drums are hard..best is a complete new blockwork wall inside the
existing, no windows, and air con system. Also consider a block and beam
false CEILING.

You will also need to line the blockwork with egg cartons or similar to
break up reflections.

Then you can stuff styrene sheets between the walls for insulation.


You also need double doors, and beware the fire safety regs.


Make sure aircon ducts go UPWARDS.
D.M. Procida
2009-01-16 23:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Mike
As well as not annoying your neighbours drum machines don't drink,
fart, blow up your toilets or drive your car into a swimming pool.
Drums are hard..best is a complete new blockwork wall inside the
existing, no windows, and air con system. Also consider a block and beam
false CEILING.
You're thinking a lot bigger than I am...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
You will also need to line the blockwork with egg cartons or similar to
break up reflections.
Sadly, egg cartons don't - despite legend - have any acoustical
properties worth making use of.

Daniele
--
Your chance to own a nearly immaculate BMW C1 (Cardiff, UK)
<http://search.ebay.co.uk/220341650190>
Dave Plowman (News)
2009-01-17 01:02:45 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by D.M. Procida
Post by The Natural Philosopher
You will also need to line the blockwork with egg cartons or similar to
break up reflections.
Sadly, egg cartons don't - despite legend - have any acoustical
properties worth making use of.
They can have *some* use for acoustic treatment of a room - but that's a
different matter from sound insulation.
--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
2009-01-17 01:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by D.M. Procida
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Mike
As well as not annoying your neighbours drum machines don't drink,
fart, blow up your toilets or drive your car into a swimming pool.
Drums are hard..best is a complete new blockwork wall inside the
existing, no windows, and air con system. Also consider a block and beam
false CEILING.
You're thinking a lot bigger than I am...
Well I had occasion to be around a fair few rehearsal rooms and the odd
small studio at one time.

Lots of mass is what it takes.
Post by D.M. Procida
Post by The Natural Philosopher
You will also need to line the blockwork with egg cartons or similar to
break up reflections.
Sadly, egg cartons don't - despite legend - have any acoustical
properties worth making use of.
They are a fuck of a sight better than a bare blockwork wall. They
really do reduce reverb levels a lot.

As will e.g hanging carpet down the walls.
Post by D.M. Procida
Daniele
D.M. Procida
2009-01-16 23:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I want to prevent as much sound as possible from entering or leaving -
as Rob suggested, I'd like to build a little recording studio in there,
and don't want to upset the neighbours, even with a drummer playing.
To completely eliminate the sound of drums at full pelt ain't going to be
easy.
I'm not anticipating very loud drums or amplification, fortunately.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Place I used to work at had a very nice 24 track studio - large enough to
take a full orchestra. And you could still hear the drums outside the
double doors. And through the floor on occasions. If you have neighbours
who are used to peace and quiet - don't always have the radio etc on - I'd
say you're in trouble.
It's a garage, and fortunately not too close to any of the houses.
However, I still don't want to upset the neighbours who might be
enjoying their gardens.

One one side of the garage, for nearly its full length, is a lean-to
bike shed; on the other side of that is the neighbour's garage. And on
the other side of the garage is the other neighbour's garage.

The sound will certainly penetrate the folding timber doors of the
garage, and probably the roof, more than the brick walls.

Daniele
--
Your chance to own a nearly immaculate BMW C1 (Cardiff, UK)
<http://search.ebay.co.uk/220341650190>
tony sayer
2009-01-17 09:24:43 UTC
Permalink
In article <1itns54.dbv7agvjvg9hN%real-not-anti-spam-***@apple-
juice.co.uk>, D.M. Procida <real-not-anti-spam-***@apple-
juice.co.uk> scribeth thus
Post by D.M. Procida
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I want to prevent as much sound as possible from entering or leaving -
as Rob suggested, I'd like to build a little recording studio in there,
and don't want to upset the neighbours, even with a drummer playing.
To completely eliminate the sound of drums at full pelt ain't going to be
easy.
I'm not anticipating very loud drums or amplification, fortunately.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Place I used to work at had a very nice 24 track studio - large enough to
take a full orchestra. And you could still hear the drums outside the
double doors. And through the floor on occasions. If you have neighbours
who are used to peace and quiet - don't always have the radio etc on - I'd
say you're in trouble.
It's a garage, and fortunately not too close to any of the houses.
However, I still don't want to upset the neighbours who might be
enjoying their gardens.
FWIW

I've got an ex garage now office/listening room some 20 feet square and
its surprising just how loud I can make it in there without upsetting
anyone..

Supposed as its all standalone and decoupled makes the difference..
Post by D.M. Procida
One one side of the garage, for nearly its full length, is a lean-to
bike shed; on the other side of that is the neighbour's garage. And on
the other side of the garage is the other neighbour's garage.
The sound will certainly penetrate the folding timber doors of the
garage, and probably the roof, more than the brick walls.
Daniele
--
Tony Sayer
brian mitchell
2009-01-15 22:04:03 UTC
Permalink
The message
Post by D.M. Procida
My garage needs to be insulated and soundproofed.
It needs to be particularly well insulated, because there will only be
ad-hoc heating in it, but it also needs extra soundproofing. I
understand that thermal insulation materials are not very good for
soundproofing.
It's a brick building, and will have internal dry walls for the
insulation.
What soundproofing products for such construction are readily available
in the UK?
Density and Decoupling are the two main requirements for sound
absorption, so the best materials are loose and heavy: sand and earth.

For a recording studio I would build a wooden frame of, say, 2" x 2"
battens as far inside the brick wall as you can bear to lose space, but
a minimum of 3" I'd think, and fill the gap with loose dry sand in
plastic bags, pedal-bin liners for example. I would fix something like
weldmesh to the inner edges of the frame uprights (ie., between the
frame and the brick) as I went up with the sandbags to keep them in
place. The sand would entirely fill the gap between brick wall and frame
but it wouldn't create an acoustic bridge and would be highly absorbent
in both directions.

The same sort of thing would work for the ceiling or roof. The great
bane of recording studios these days is aircraft noise, but sand could
take care of that too. Because of the weight, some reinforcement of the
roof structure would undoubtedly be needed. Depending on what sort of
garage it is --detached or otherwise-- sandbags could either be placed
on top of the existing roof with an additional weatherproof covering
added, or sit on top of an internal ceiling, probably of plywood or
similar. Another idea would be to have a turf roof and not worry about
the weather.

Inside again, the spaces between the 2" x 2" uprights could be filled
with various sheet materials, depending a bit on what sort of acoustic
you wanted to create, harder surfaces creating brighter acoustics,
absorbent ones doing the opposite. You can get properly tuned acoustic
foams to absorb different parts of the sound spectrum but they cost a
lot.

I don't know if the floor would need treatment of any kind. A concrete
slab on earth is pretty deadening, I would have thought. But if train or
traffic rumble, for instance, was getting picked up then a floating
floor of carpeted chipboard flooring just sitting on sand would reduce
it well.

I'm assuming you can fill in the original garage door opening and get
access another way? Trying to sound insulate an up-and-over door would
be a *real* challenge. Sand may not have been what you were thinking of,
but it's cheap, readily available, and will do the job better than
anything. The inner frame would need to be well built, but it only has
to keep the sand upright, not support its weight.
D.M. Procida
2009-01-16 23:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by brian mitchell
Density and Decoupling are the two main requirements for sound
absorption, so the best materials are loose and heavy: sand and earth.
For a recording studio I would build a wooden frame of, say, 2" x 2"
battens as far inside the brick wall as you can bear to lose space, but
a minimum of 3" I'd think, and fill the gap with loose dry sand in
plastic bags, pedal-bin liners for example. I would fix something like
weldmesh to the inner edges of the frame uprights (ie., between the
frame and the brick) as I went up with the sandbags to keep them in
place. The sand would entirely fill the gap between brick wall and frame
but it wouldn't create an acoustic bridge and would be highly absorbent
in both directions.
Thanks, that sounds both suitably cheap and within my DIY capabilities.
Post by brian mitchell
The same sort of thing would work for the ceiling or roof.
Another idea would be to have a turf roof and not worry about
the weather.
Two birds with one stone; I've always wanted a turf roof.
Post by brian mitchell
I don't know if the floor would need treatment of any kind. A concrete
slab on earth is pretty deadening, I would have thought. But if train or
traffic rumble, for instance, was getting picked up then a floating
floor of carpeted chipboard flooring just sitting on sand would reduce
it well.
I'm more concerned with making the floor warmer.

Daniele
--
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