Discussion:
Grenfell Tower - a visit
(too old to reply)
Mike Tomlinson
2017-07-10 20:39:51 UTC
Permalink
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Some obs:

* the smell is awful, more than just "post bonfire". It permeates the
entire area around Lancaster West - up to Portobello Road market,
Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove. You're reminded by the smell that there
are bodies in that tower

* I get the sense that some of the wealthy occupants of the upmarket
properties just a minute or two's walk away would complain about the
smell (and the sight), but they'd probably get lynched

* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

* several of the lower-level properties in the three "arms" that radiate
out from Grenfell Tower have balconies which are piled high with
rubbish. It's a wonder there aren't more fires. Coupled with reports
of communal escape areas at Grenfell being obstructed by dumped
furniture, etc. I'd go as far as to say the residents aren't helping
themselves and the TMO should be more proactive in not allowing this to
happen

* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Tim Watts
2017-07-10 20:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
newshound
2017-07-10 21:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
DerbyBorn
2017-07-10 21:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
bm
2017-07-10 22:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a shit and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).
newshound
2017-07-11 14:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by bm
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a shit and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few
more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red
herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on
more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire
can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing,
hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the
meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP.
Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this
must be another of the things for the investigation to look into.
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-11 16:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.
Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.
--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
dennis@home
2017-07-12 10:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by newshound
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.
Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?
newshound
2017-07-14 10:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by newshound
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.
Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.
dennis@home
2017-07-14 10:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by newshound
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.
Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.
They said that about the twin towers too.
newshound
2017-07-14 11:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by newshound
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by newshound
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.
Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.
They said that about the twin towers too.
Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about.
dennis@home
2017-07-14 19:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
Post by ***@home
Post by newshound
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by newshound
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.
Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.
They said that about the twin towers too.
Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about.
Do you want to name anyone that said they would before the fires?
newshound
2017-07-15 21:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by newshound
Post by ***@home
Post by newshound
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by newshound
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.
Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.
They said that about the twin towers too.
Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about.
Do you want to name anyone that said they would before the fires?
Steel framed buildings are always vulnerable to a sufficiently large
fire. Those that knew what would happen with an aircraft load of fuel
spread out and ignited over one of two floors of a steel framed
skyscraper sensibly did not publicise the fact. Worth noting that the
Bin Laden family made their money in civil engineering.
Dave Liquorice
2017-07-15 22:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by newshound
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.
They said that about the twin towers too.
Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between
the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core.
The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually
failed leading to a domino effect collaspse.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Weatherlawyer
2017-07-23 05:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Liquorice
Post by ***@home
Post by newshound
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.
They said that about the twin towers too.
Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between
the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core.
The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually
failed leading to a domino effect collapse.
Not possible any more than it was possible to make all the collapsed steel disappear.

No videos show many multiple tons of steel in the cage of debris that would have been formed atashuch a collapse.

How come a frequent poster to a construction forum had no idea about that?
Chris J Dixon
2017-07-23 07:25:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Weatherlawyer
Post by Dave Liquorice
Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between
the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core.
The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually
failed leading to a domino effect collapse.
Not possible any more than it was possible to make all the collapsed steel disappear.
No videos show many multiple tons of steel in the cage of debris that would have been formed atashuch a collapse.
How come a frequent poster to a construction forum had no idea about that?
I may regret asking this, but what is your explanation?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
***@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.
Mike Tomlinson
2017-07-15 00:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.
There was a interview in the Grauniad with the architect of the
building. He thought it would have survived the fire, but it would be
necessary to pull it down anyway for practical reasons (no one would
want to live in it).

If you look at some of the pics of the interior of the flats post-fire,
the load-bearing concrete uprights look pretty badly damaged.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
dennis@home
2017-07-15 09:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Post by newshound
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.
There was a interview in the Grauniad with the architect of the
building. He thought it would have survived the fire, but it would be
necessary to pull it down anyway for practical reasons (no one would
want to live in it).
If you look at some of the pics of the interior of the flats post-fire,
the load-bearing concrete uprights look pretty badly damaged.
The investigators have evacuated the building several times because it
has moved.

It will collapse unless something is done to fix it.

Is just a question of how soon.
Mike Tomlinson
2017-07-15 11:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
The investigators have evacuated the building several times because it
has moved.
Do you have a citation for that?
Post by ***@home
It will collapse unless something is done to fix it.
Or that?
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Mike Tomlinson
2017-07-15 14:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Do you have a citation for that?
Thought not.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
dennis@home
2017-07-15 16:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Do you have a citation for that?
Thought not.
Thought wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-evacuated-collapse-2-times-major-concerns-movement-residents-firefighters-safety-a7826911.html


Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly.

Some of us don't even have time to read every post.
Mike Tomlinson
2017-07-15 17:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-evacuated-
collapse-2-times-major-concerns-movement-residents-firefighters-safety-
a7826911.html
Thank you.
Post by ***@home
Some of us have a life outside usenet
Yes, we do.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Weatherlawyer
2017-07-23 05:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Do you have a citation for that?
Thought not.
Thought wrong.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-evacuated-collapse-2-times-major-concerns-movement-residents-firefighters-safety-a7826911.html
Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly.
Some of us don't even have time to read every post.
Some of us suspect that a building that doesn't have fire alarms before it is used to kill 100 people will not have very high grade seismometers fitted to it afterwards:

"Grenfell Tower has moved significantly three times since the deadly fire last month, twice forcing staff working inside to evacuate the building.

Alarms monitoring structural movement of the tower have been triggered on three separate occasions since being installed, after movement of more than five millimetres was detected."

Some of us also know:
Reinforced concrete capable or moving a noticeable distance will maintain the cracks at said distance until they increase.

But some of us have been led to believe that a steel beam 2" thick can be melted instantaneously by paraffin burning hundreds of feet above, causing spirit cooking to waft it away to an unseen place.
dennis@home
2017-07-23 14:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Weatherlawyer
Post by ***@home
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Do you have a citation for that?
Thought not.
Thought wrong.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-evacuated-collapse-2-times-major-concerns-movement-residents-firefighters-safety-a7826911.html
Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly.
Post by Weatherlawyer
Post by ***@home
Some of us don't even have time to read every post.
Some of us suspect that a building that doesn't have fire alarms
before it is used to kill 100 people will not have very high grade
"Grenfell Tower has moved significantly three times since the deadly
fire last month, twice forcing staff working inside to evacuate the
building.
Alarms monitoring structural movement of the tower have been
triggered on three separate occasions since being installed, after
movement of more than five millimetres was detected."
Some of us also know: Reinforced concrete capable or moving a
noticeable distance will maintain the cracks at said distance until
they increase.
But some of us have been led to believe that a steel beam 2" thick
can be melted instantaneously by paraffin burning hundreds of feet
above, causing spirit cooking to waft it away to an unseen place.
Of course it can happen.
Why do you think it can't?
It doesn't even have to melt, steel softens long before it melts as any
blacksmith will tell you.
I said they would collapse well before they did even though everyone was
telling me they couldn't.
All that's needed is to use crappy fire insulation on the beams that
gets blown off by the impact energy exposing the beams to the heat and
its all over.
If they had been reinforced concrete beams they would still be there now.
Weatherlawyer
2017-07-23 05:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?
Don't be silly. Tower blocks don't collapse in fires!
bert
2017-07-11 20:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
Post by bm
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a shit and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few
more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red
herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but
on more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire
can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing,
hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the
meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP.
Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this
must be another of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their
procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any
fire in a tower block.
--
bert
bm
2017-07-11 23:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
Post by bm
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a shit and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.
Crickey, that's almost sensible.
newshound
2017-07-14 10:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by bm
Post by newshound
Post by bm
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a shit and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.
Crickey, that's almost sensible.
I think their original strategy was sensible. If they had really been
aware of the risk from the cladding, they should have made more fuss,
and changed the "stay put" strategy. To be fair they have a *lot* of
experience in successfully dealing with fires in tower blocks.
Dave Liquorice
2017-07-15 22:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by bm
Post by bert
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their
procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any
fire in a tower block.
Crickey, that's almost sensible.
But not really correct. Most would before, a few have changed, some
haven't.

Our fire service doesn't neither does Durham or Northumberland but
they have no high rises.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Weatherlawyer
2017-07-23 05:41:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by bm
Post by newshound
Post by bm
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a shit and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.
Crickey, that's almost sensible.
It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of?
dennis@home
2017-07-23 14:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Weatherlawyer
Post by bm
Post by newshound
Post by bm
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a shit and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.
Crickey, that's almost sensible.
It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of?
Usually steel.
The hydraulics are probably plastic and/or rubber.
What do you think access platforms are made from?
Tim Streater
2017-07-23 14:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by Weatherlawyer
It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of?
Usually steel.
The hydraulics are probably plastic and/or rubber.
What do you think access platforms are made from?
Weatherlawyer is obviously some kind of 9/11 conspiracy theorist troll.

He seems to overlook that the pile of rubble from each tower was 9
stories high.
--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich people
by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason they are poor.

Peter Thompson
dennis@home
2017-07-23 17:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by ***@home
Post by Weatherlawyer
It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of?
Usually steel.
The hydraulics are probably plastic and/or rubber.
What do you think access platforms are made from?
Weatherlawyer is obviously some kind of 9/11 conspiracy theorist troll.
He seems to overlook that the pile of rubble from each tower was 9
stories high.
They also took loads of stuff away on lorries, including lots of steel
and all the evidence of super thermite bombs. ;-)

Weatherlawyer
2017-07-23 05:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by newshound
hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time,
this
must be another of the things for the investigation to look into.
Don't let the tooth fairy steal your dreams

The first thing the Incompetent In Charge said about all of this is that if there is anything to learn about this, steps will be taken.

Apparently some of them were takes as far as Stoke on Trent where alternative accommodation has been offered.

Does that seem sufficiently far away to you?
I think the only distance problem involved is the amount of traffic in the way and/or the price of a train ticket.


And of course the general malaise accruing to shock that disorientation/alienation will offer.
Weatherlawyer
2017-07-23 05:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by DerbyBorn
Post by Tim Watts
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
Very sobering - thanks for that.
+1
Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
They would be handy open plan spaces for fly tipping

Grenfell Tower Management (from a report by an action committee.)

In 1996 the entire council housing stock of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea was transferred to the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), which currently manages 9,459 properties, of which around 6,900 are tenant-occupied and 2,500 leasehold properties, and from which it collects £44 million in rent and £10 million in service charges every year.

The KCTMO is unique in also being an Arms Length Management Organisation (ALMO), which means that activities between it and the council are viewed by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs as non-trading activity, so any profit arising from it will not be taxable.

KCTMO has a board which at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire comprised eight residents, three council-appointed members and two independent members. Their identities have now been removed from the company website, but at the time of the fire they included:

Fay Edward, the Chair and Resident Board Member since 2012 and recipient in the Queen’s New Year’s Honours List 2015 of the British Empire Medal. It was she who awarded the contract for the fatal refurbishment of Grenfell Tower

Conservative councillor Maighread Condon-Simmonds, the Lady Mayor of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea until May 2017;

Labour councillor Judith Blakeman, who sits on the council’s Housing and Property scrutiny committee, and who in December 2015 dismissed calls by the Grenfell Action Group to investigate the KCTMO;

Council-nominated Board Member Paula France, a former employee at the government’s Homes and Communities Agency who has held senior positions in Circle, Thirty Three, Look Ahead, Network Housing and Shepherd’s Bush housing associations and now runs her own consultancy business;

Independent Board Member Simon Brissenden, a Management Consulting Professional who until March of this year was employed to deliver Health and Safety Compliance in the Asset and Investment portfolio for Genesis Housing Association;

Independent Board Member Anthony Preiskel, since 2012 a Non-Executive Director of the government’s Homes and Communities Agency.

The KCTMO is not a co-operative, which means that although it was created under the government’s Housing (Right to Manage) Regulations 1994, it was set up under corporate law. And although the housing stock it manages is still owned by the council,

as an ALMO (the only UK TMO, apparently, that is also an ALMO) it is exempt from Freedom of Information requests (not that councils answer these either, or when they do the information requested is redacted).

The distinction between public and private means very little these days, and one look at who sits on this board shows that it’s run by housing professionals fronted by politicians with the acquiescence of compliant residents – in other words, the same privatised management structure being put in place for every other estate regeneration scheme in London.

https://architectsforsocialhousing.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/the-truth-about-grenfell-tower-a-report-by-architects-for-social-housing/

A few paragraphs above this quote mentions that the owner of Cellotex is on a committee concerned with fire regulations.

You wouldn't thik that this committee would have much difficulty informing a government about regulations would you?
Tim Streater
2017-07-23 10:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Weatherlawyer
Grenfell Tower Management (from a report by an action committee.)
Which action committee?
Post by Weatherlawyer
In 1996 the entire council housing stock of the Royal Borough of Kensington
and Chelsea was transferred to the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management
Organisation (KCTMO), which currently manages 9,459 properties, of which
around 6,900 are tenant-occupied and 2,500 leasehold properties, and from
which it collects £44 million in rent and £10 million in service charges every
year.
The KCTMO is unique in also being an Arms Length Management Organisation
(ALMO), which means that activities between it and the council are viewed by
Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs as non-trading activity, so any profit
arising from it will not be taxable.
KCTMO has a board which at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire comprised eight
residents, three council-appointed members and two independent members. Their
identities have now been removed from the company website, but at the time of
When you say "residents", does that mean tenants? If so, does that mean
that the tenants had a working majority on the board at all times?

[snip list of non-resident members]

Residents not listed, then.
Post by Weatherlawyer
The KCTMO is not a co-operative, which means that although it was created
under the government’s Housing (Right to Manage) Regulations 1994, it was set
up under corporate law. And although the housing stock it manages is still
owned by the council,
as an ALMO (the only UK TMO, apparently, that is also an ALMO) it is exempt
from Freedom of Information requests (not that councils answer these either,
or when they do the information requested is redacted).
The distinction between public and private means very little these days, and
one look at who sits on this board shows that it’s run by housing
professionals fronted by politicians with the acquiescence of compliant
residents – in other words, the same privatised management structure being put
in place for every other estate regeneration scheme in London.
I'd have thought that they were all liable, though.
--
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
Andy Burns
2017-07-23 11:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Residents not listed, then.
They were listed before the fire, thanks to wayback

<http://web.archive.org/web/20170617013748/http://www.kctmo.org.uk/sub/about-us/20/the-board>

That page is gone on the current website.
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-23 14:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Weatherlawyer
KCTMO has a board which at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire
comprised eight residents, three council-appointed members and two
independent members. Their identities have now been removed from the
When you say "residents", does that mean tenants? If so, does that mean
that the tenants had a working majority on the board at all times?
[snip list of non-resident members]
Residents not listed, then.
Residents of the borough and tenants of the council. Not quite the same as
being tenants of Grenfell.
--
*IS THERE ANOTHER WORD FOR SYNONYM?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-10 23:07:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.
--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Steve Walker
2017-07-10 23:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

SteveW
JoeJoe
2017-07-11 08:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 09:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-11 11:51:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In reality they could not care less.


NT
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 12:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square
foot
of
land has to earn a profit.
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really.
But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In
reality they could not care less.
NT
the more you give people the more they want and abuse it ....nothing worse
than a tenant who has bought their house and still thinks they should get
everything for nothing ....I remember an owner saying to me when something
became dangerous "you sold me the house in a bad state so you (the council)
can just repair it for me"
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-11 12:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
the more you give people the more they want and abuse it
Then your mum should have brought you up better.
--
* What do they call a coffee break at the Lipton Tea Company? *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 13:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
the more you give people the more they want and abuse it
Then your mum should have brought you up better.
what did you do to the last hire car you had ....?
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-11 12:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really.
But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In
reality they could not care less.
NT
the more you give people the more they want and abuse it ....nothing worse
than a tenant who has bought their house and still thinks they should get
everything for nothing ....I remember an owner saying to me when something
became dangerous "you sold me the house in a bad state so you (the council)
can just repair it for me"
We've all met those. And many aren't that way.


NT
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 13:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really.
But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In
reality they could not care less.
NT
the more you give people the more they want and abuse it ....nothing worse
than a tenant who has bought their house and still thinks they should get
everything for nothing ....I remember an owner saying to me when something
became dangerous "you sold me the house in a bad state so you (the council)
can just repair it for me"
We've all met those. And many aren't that way.
NT
well I only had to deal with that kind .....
The Natural Philosopher
2017-07-11 14:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from
both? In reality they could not care less.
Marxism and its bastard offspring socialism is ultimately a materialist
philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms of money.

Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and never a
hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or 'happy'

Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material benifit at
the lowest cost.

Human feelings didn't come into it.
--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-11 14:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by t***@gmail.com
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from
both? In reality they could not care less.
Marxism and its bastard offspring socialism is ultimately a materialist
philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms of money.
Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and never a
hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or 'happy'
Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material benifit at
the lowest cost.
Human feelings didn't come into it.
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if very uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete, spaced out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges etc etc. They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.


NT
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-11 14:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if very
uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete, spaced
out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges etc etc.
They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.
I well remember one of the first built in Aberdeen post war. Kincorth.
Mostly semi detached granite built 'bungalow' style. Looked much the same
as private ones on sale elsewhere. Might even have been the same builder.

Of course in the same way as other public buildings - like schools and so
on - any estate if not properly maintained can soon look neglected.

Not that far from here in Mitcham is a council estate with factory built
houses. Concrete slabs bolted together, and the bolts rot through.
Problems with damp from new. But with enormous gardens back and front.
--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
2017-07-11 15:17:03 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 15:01:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by t***@gmail.com
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset
from both? In reality they could not care less.
Marxism and its bastard offspring socialism is ultimately a
materialist philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms
of money.
Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and
never a hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or
'happy'
Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material
benifit at the lowest cost.
Human feelings didn't come into it.
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if
very uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete,
spaced out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges
etc etc. They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.
Not the 60s tower blocks mate
NT
--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-11 15:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 15:01:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by t***@gmail.com
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset
from both? In reality they could not care less.
Marxism and its bastard offspring socialism is ultimately a
materialist philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms
of money.
Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and
never a hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or
'happy'
Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material
benifit at the lowest cost.
Human feelings didn't come into it.
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if
very uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete,
spaced out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges
etc etc. They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.
Not the 60s tower blocks mate
No. They changed from that. But that's hardly news.


NT
s***@gowanhill.com
2017-07-12 09:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by t***@gmail.com
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if
very uninspired).
Not the 60s tower blocks mate
People didn't care what they looked like, they were just grateful for an indoor cludgie.

Owain
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-11 12:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of
scumbags, leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to
live if they had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
Absolutely. Have a minimum wage big enough so everyone can buy their own
house in London. You just know it makes sense. Of course this would mean a
vast rise in taxation to pay for essential services like the police and
army. Both much needed to control the riots caused by the increased
taxation.
--
*I know a guy who's addicted to brake fluid. He says he can stop any time.*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 13:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of
scumbags, leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to
live if they had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
Absolutely. Have a minimum wage big enough so everyone can buy their own
house in London. You just know it makes sense. Of course this would mean a
vast rise in taxation to pay for essential services like the police and
army. Both much needed to control the riots caused by the increased
taxation.
london should be abandoned to the foreigners ..... see how they like it then
....
JoeJoe
2017-07-11 15:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of
scumbags, leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to
live if they had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
Absolutely. Have a minimum wage big enough so everyone can buy their own
house in London. You just know it makes sense. Of course this would mean a
vast rise in taxation to pay for essential services like the police and
army. Both much needed to control the riots caused by the increased
taxation.
london should be abandoned to the foreigners ..... see how they like it then
London has been abandoned to the foreigners a long time ago.
JoeJoe
2017-07-11 15:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-11 15:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.
What would you do with people after the temporary expires?


NT
The Natural Philosopher
2017-07-11 15:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.
What would you do with people after the temporary expires?
gas chambers obviously.
nevvawozzajezza just cant wait...
Post by t***@gmail.com
NT
--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-11 16:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.
What would you do with people after the temporary expires?
Let them eat cake?
--
*It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-11 16:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.
What would you do with people after the temporary expires?
Let them eat cake?
Quite. Some could be moved on once their finances pick up, but doing so would disincentivise them to work. That could be tackled by more basic housing.

Many never see better fortunes. A fair number would either get to stay or be homeless. It's easy to point fingers with those, but the reality is a percentage of the population does not manage to sort things out, and that leaves the question of how our society wants to treat them. It has decided.

Sadly the attitude TNP shows really does happen in the 3rd world.


NT
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-11 17:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Sadly the attitude TNP shows really does happen in the 3rd world.
It would seem that's what a lot of Brexiteers want us to become. Not the
poor sods who voted out thinking it would improve their lot, of course.
--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
2017-07-12 05:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.
What would you do with people after the temporary expires?
Let them eat cake?
Quite. Some could be moved on once their finances pick up, but doing so would disincentivise them to work. That could be tackled by more basic housing.
Many never see better fortunes. A fair number would either get to stay or be homeless. It's easy to point fingers with those, but the reality is a percentage of the population does not manage to sort things out, and that leaves the question of how our society wants to treat them. It has decided.
Sadly the attitude TNP shows really does happen in the 3rd world.
I am glad you said 'show' rather than 'hold' .

So Germany is a 3rd world country eh?
Post by t***@gmail.com
NT
--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
JoeJoe
2017-07-11 20:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.
What would you do with people after the temporary expires?
I don't need to do anything - just like nobody did/gives anything for/to
the rest of us. When you give something like a house and/or income
(i.e. benefits) for free/very little on a long term basis, you simply
encourage them to become needy/lazy/expecting everything on a plate, and
for life.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 16:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.
I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.
social housing was a big mistake .......
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only be
provided as a temporary stop gap.
yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no right
to buy ......
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-11 16:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.
yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......
Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or was
the family home at a market rent. And no reason why they shouldn't be
allowed to buy too. But also at the market rate. Provided the council is
allowed to use that money for other housing.
--
*Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson" *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
whisky-dave
2017-07-12 09:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.
yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......
Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or was
the family home at a market rent.
So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And no reason why they shouldn't be
allowed to buy too.
Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from poor.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But also at the market rate.
But why would they want to buy it at the market rate if they are living in a relatively higher end property than they can afford.

If yuo were renting a council property for say £500 a month and then was toild but you can buy this porperty and it'll cost you £1200 a month and in 15-25 years it will be yours what would you do ?
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Provided the council is
allowed to use that money for other housing.
I think they should be allowed to, in fact I think it should be illegal not to.
Dave Plowman (News)
2017-07-12 10:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.
yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......
Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or
was the family home at a market rent.
So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option
but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive.
No different to giving rebates of one sort or another to those on low
incomes?
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to buy too.
Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from poor.
If you get the council gets the money to build a new one, what's the
difference?
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But also at the market rate.
But why would they want to buy it at the market rate if they are living
in a relatively higher end property than they can afford.
But their income has risen to a point above where you'd get a council
house?
Post by whisky-dave
If yuo were renting a council property for say £500 a month and then was
toild but you can buy this porperty and it'll cost you £1200 a month and
in 15-25 years it will be yours what would you do ?
Invent more figures? ;-)
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Provided the council is
allowed to use that money for other housing.
I think they should be allowed to, in fact I think it should be illegal not to.
Thatcher made it illegal for councils to do this. And the proportion of
the population living in council properties is now a fraction of then.
Exactly what she intended. Move it all to the private sector and give
private landlords the housing support money. Good Tory principle.
--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
whisky-dave
2017-07-12 11:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Post by JoeJoe
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.
yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......
Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or
was the family home at a market rent.
So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option
but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive.
No different to giving rebates of one sort or another to those on low
incomes?
It's very differnt if you have fixed rents. if say the person renting won the lottery and refused to move out of their £500 a month council property, you'd have to evict them.
And what are these rebates ?
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to buy too.
Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from poor.
If you get the council gets the money to build a new one, what's the
difference?
You really can't tell ?
Ypiou can see that selling a council house which cost 2K in the 60s
and selling it for 30K today, will 30K really build a new council house.
You couldn't even buy the land for that.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But also at the market rate.
But why would they want to buy it at the market rate if they are living
in a relatively higher end property than they can afford.
But their income has risen to a point above where you'd get a council
house?
Why should it matter to them unless you plan to force them out legally.
It just couldn't work like that.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by whisky-dave
If yuo were renting a council property for say £500 a month and then was
toild but you can buy this porperty and it'll cost you £1200 a month and
in 15-25 years it will be yours what would you do ?
Invent more figures? ;-)
Then come up with real ones. Show me how the money collected from the sale of council houese went to building new council houses.
It this like perpetual motion ?
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by whisky-dave
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Provided the council is
allowed to use that money for other housing.
I think they should be allowed to, in fact I think it should be illegal not to.
Thatcher made it illegal for councils to do this.
Yes I know.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And the proportion of
the population living in council properties is now a fraction of then.
yes that's obvious and there;s a lot of landlord making a lot of money because of it.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Exactly what she intended.
Are yuo telling me she was a right wing conseraative , wow.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Move it all to the private sector and give
private landlords the housing support money. Good Tory principle.
Yep, next you'll be telling me that the landlords voted tory.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 07:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
well you need something to get you off the jake .....
Brian Gaff
2017-07-11 08:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Yes unfortunately, non inspected non working fire doors, fly tipping and
rubbish are a national issue and have been for years There simply is nobody
going around and doing proper checks and removing fixing stuff any more.
People used to rely on this of course.
This is one big lesson that should be noted by councils everywhere as
access and safety seemed to have been forgotten in the cost cutting
outsourcing new brave world.
Brian
--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
* the smell is awful, more than just "post bonfire". It permeates the
entire area around Lancaster West - up to Portobello Road market,
Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove. You're reminded by the smell that there
are bodies in that tower
* I get the sense that some of the wealthy occupants of the upmarket
properties just a minute or two's walk away would complain about the
smell (and the sight), but they'd probably get lynched
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
* several of the lower-level properties in the three "arms" that radiate
out from Grenfell Tower have balconies which are piled high with
rubbish. It's a wonder there aren't more fires. Coupled with reports
of communal escape areas at Grenfell being obstructed by dumped
furniture, etc. I'd go as far as to say the residents aren't helping
themselves and the TMO should be more proactive in not allowing this to
happen
* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 09:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
Yes unfortunately, non inspected non working fire doors, fly tipping and
rubbish are a national issue and have been for years There simply is
nobody going around and doing proper checks and removing fixing stuff any
more. People used to rely on this of course.
This is one big lesson that should be noted by councils everywhere as
access and safety seemed to have been forgotten in the cost cutting
outsourcing new brave world.
Brian
It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants not
to pay more .....
s***@gowanhill.com
2017-07-11 12:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants not
to pay more .....
But in many ways we seem to be paying more and more, and actually getting less and less.

Owain
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2017-07-11 13:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants not
to pay more .....
But in many ways we seem to be paying more and more, and actually getting less and less.
Owain
indeed ......all those HR, social workers and IT people parasites they are
...
whisky-dave
2017-07-11 14:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants not
to pay more .....
But in many ways we seem to be paying more and more, and actually getting less and less.
Owain
Yes and this is why BREXIT happened being told that things are getting better when in reality for the majority things are getting worse, it's called austrity I believe although some people have managed to aviod it.
harry
2017-07-11 15:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.
It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.
* the smell is awful, more than just "post bonfire". It permeates the
entire area around Lancaster West - up to Portobello Road market,
Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove. You're reminded by the smell that there
are bodies in that tower
* I get the sense that some of the wealthy occupants of the upmarket
properties just a minute or two's walk away would complain about the
smell (and the sight), but they'd probably get lynched
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains
* several of the lower-level properties in the three "arms" that radiate
out from Grenfell Tower have balconies which are piled high with
rubbish. It's a wonder there aren't more fires. Coupled with reports
of communal escape areas at Grenfell being obstructed by dumped
furniture, etc. I'd go as far as to say the residents aren't helping
themselves and the TMO should be more proactive in not allowing this to
happen
* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services
It was the Joose that done it!????
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4679988/Islamic-activist-blames-Zionists-Grenfell-Tower-fire.html
Vir Campestris
2017-07-13 20:59:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services
It would have to be a big vehicle for the fire service not to just push
it out of the way.

Andy
Mike Tomlinson
2017-07-14 04:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by Mike Tomlinson
* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services
It would have to be a big vehicle for the fire service not to just push
it out of the way.
We discussed this here shortly after the fire happened. Having now seen
it for myself, there's simply nowhere for such a vehicle to go. Cars
parked both sides with no gaps to show a blocking vehicle into.

In addition, there was originally access for the emergency services to
the north side of the tower via a car park. That's now gone with the
construction of a leisure centre and pedestrianisation of the access
road. Using the history feature in Google Earth is revealing.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Mike Tomlinson
2017-07-15 03:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
We discussed this here shortly after the fire happened. Having now seen
it for myself, there's simply nowhere for such a vehicle to go. Cars
parked both sides with no gaps to show a blocking vehicle into.
Here is the access road to the tower (Grenfell Road) , as seen by google
maps, which says it all. Reports say this road was blocked by a car
parked in the middle on the night of the fire.

<https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.513104,-0.2150394,3a,42.5y,351.07h,91
.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sah6TWkpQVMogpzLBLUF1lQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
http://tinyurl.com/yd4bzwmr
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West
Andy Burns
2017-07-15 04:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Tomlinson
Reports say this road was blocked by a car
parked in the middle on the night of the fire.
I'd heard of the general disregard for keeping it clear during the
refurb, and photos showing that, but not specifically on the night of
the fire, the fire service mentioned arriving within 6 minutes of being
called, no mention of problems getting there.
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