Discussion:
OT: Manual or automatic gearbox? and XC60 opinion...
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R D S
2021-05-26 12:03:07 UTC
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I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.

I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.

But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.

Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
jon
2021-05-26 12:22:17 UTC
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Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Automatic, I have had autos since 1969. Previous Zodiacs, Rovers and
Jaguars were all manual.
Graham Harrison
2021-05-26 14:22:30 UTC
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Post by jon
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Automatic, I have had autos since 1969. Previous Zodiacs, Rovers and
Jaguars were all manual.
I've been driving autos on and off for something like 50 years. I
passed the test on a manual but my dad had a Triumph 2000 auto which
he let me drive (!).

Those early one were Borg Warner 3-speed jobs. Easy to drive but very
little control over the box which meant it took a while sometimes to
work out what gear it needed.

Then I started visiting family in the USA; no choice there and the
Borg Warner type boxes combined with lazy US cars required a different
driving style. There was one in the late 1990s that I took from Denver
into Yellowstone Park and coming out of the park over the "Beartooth
Highway" there was a long, long descent and I realised that the only
low gear I had access to was the lowest so I had to stop on the way
down to allow brakes to cool!

For a long time I had manuals but then my wife got a Subaru Justy (I
think that was it) with an auto box and 4WD. All she really wanted was
the auto. Her work as a Health Visitor meant quite a lot of short
distance driving between clients to which the auto was well suited.

These days I have a Yeti auto on a diesel engine. 6 gears, two auto
selections - Drive and Sport plus the ability to select individual
gears (but only 1 up/down, no changing through 2 gears in one move).
My wife drives a Jazz with a CVT box with paddle changers that
(nominally) provide access to 7 gears. I much prefer the VW/Yeti box
which allows me the freedom not to HAVE to think about gears and to
concentrate on the road. It's not perfect in auto mode but it's pretty
clever changing down, for instance, as you slow.

I will/can dive an auto but I've come to recognise the benefits in
recent years.
jon
2021-05-26 14:31:49 UTC
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Post by jon
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Automatic, I have had autos since 1969. Previous Zodiacs, Rovers and
Jaguars were all manual.
I've been driving autos on and off for something like 50 years. I passed
the test on a manual but my dad had a Triumph 2000 auto which he let me
drive (!).
Those early one were Borg Warner 3-speed jobs. Easy to drive but very
little control over the box which meant it took a while sometimes to
work out what gear it needed.
Then I started visiting family in the USA; no choice there and the Borg
Warner type boxes combined with lazy US cars required a different
driving style. There was one in the late 1990s that I took from Denver
into Yellowstone Park and coming out of the park over the "Beartooth
Highway" there was a long, long descent and I realised that the only low
gear I had access to was the lowest so I had to stop on the way down to
allow brakes to cool!
For a long time I had manuals but then my wife got a Subaru Justy (I
think that was it) with an auto box and 4WD. All she really wanted was
the auto. Her work as a Health Visitor meant quite a lot of short
distance driving between clients to which the auto was well suited.
These days I have a Yeti auto on a diesel engine. 6 gears, two auto
selections - Drive and Sport plus the ability to select individual gears
(but only 1 up/down, no changing through 2 gears in one move). My wife
drives a Jazz with a CVT box with paddle changers that (nominally)
provide access to 7 gears. I much prefer the VW/Yeti box which allows me
the freedom not to HAVE to think about gears and to concentrate on the
road. It's not perfect in auto mode but it's pretty clever changing
down, for instance, as you slow.
I will/can dive an auto but I've come to recognise the benefits in
recent years.
In the sixties the Met Police in London changed over to automatic
gearboxes to save on clutch replacement costs and driver fatigue. I heard
that over 600 gear changes was common for a shift.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 16:45:04 UTC
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Post by jon
In the sixties the Met Police in London changed over to automatic
gearboxes to save on clutch replacement costs and driver fatigue. I heard
that over 600 gear changes was common for a shift.
Yup. Ambulances are generally auto too.
--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
M***@p.com
2021-05-26 22:56:06 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by jon
In the sixties the Met Police in London changed over to automatic
gearboxes to save on clutch replacement costs and driver fatigue. I heard
that over 600 gear changes was common for a shift.
Yup. Ambulances are generally auto too.
As are Fire engines, because the younger generation couldn't cope with a Crash gearbox
The Natural Philosopher
2021-05-26 19:14:09 UTC
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Post by jon
Post by jon
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Automatic, I have had autos since 1969. Previous Zodiacs, Rovers and
Jaguars were all manual.
I've been driving autos on and off for something like 50 years. I passed
the test on a manual but my dad had a Triumph 2000 auto which he let me
drive (!).
Those early one were Borg Warner 3-speed jobs. Easy to drive but very
little control over the box which meant it took a while sometimes to
work out what gear it needed.
Then I started visiting family in the USA; no choice there and the Borg
Warner type boxes combined with lazy US cars required a different
driving style. There was one in the late 1990s that I took from Denver
into Yellowstone Park and coming out of the park over the "Beartooth
Highway" there was a long, long descent and I realised that the only low
gear I had access to was the lowest so I had to stop on the way down to
allow brakes to cool!
For a long time I had manuals but then my wife got a Subaru Justy (I
think that was it) with an auto box and 4WD. All she really wanted was
the auto. Her work as a Health Visitor meant quite a lot of short
distance driving between clients to which the auto was well suited.
These days I have a Yeti auto on a diesel engine. 6 gears, two auto
selections - Drive and Sport plus the ability to select individual gears
(but only 1 up/down, no changing through 2 gears in one move). My wife
drives a Jazz with a CVT box with paddle changers that (nominally)
provide access to 7 gears. I much prefer the VW/Yeti box which allows me
the freedom not to HAVE to think about gears and to concentrate on the
road. It's not perfect in auto mode but it's pretty clever changing
down, for instance, as you slow.
I will/can dive an auto but I've come to recognise the benefits in
recent years.
In the sixties the Met Police in London changed over to automatic
gearboxes to save on clutch replacement costs and driver fatigue. I heard
that over 600 gear changes was common for a shift.
And learnt to fool the box using left foot braking to force a shift
down. So they burnt the brakes out instead
--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.
Max Demian
2021-05-26 12:26:58 UTC
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Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Electric cars are all the rage; they don't need gears. Also steam cars.
The Stanley Steamer was very good. Curse Benz and his "gas" engine!

Seriously, the only automatic car I've driven was a (grossly
underpowered) Metro, many years ago. What was different about the one
you tried?
--
Max Demian
R D S
2021-05-26 12:59:32 UTC
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Post by Max Demian
Seriously, the only automatic car I've driven was a (grossly
underpowered) Metro, many years ago. What was different about the one
you tried?
It was smooth and responsive and went like stink.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 13:56:10 UTC
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Post by Max Demian
Seriously, the only automatic car I've driven was a (grossly
underpowered) Metro, many years ago. What was different about the one
you tried?
It's interesting when you try the same auto with engine options.

Best contrast I can think of was the P6 Rover, made between about the mid
60s to mid 70s. Both versions pretty well the same auto gearbox.

The four cylinder 2000 auto one of the slowest accelerating cars on the
road. A real dog. The 2000 manual not too bad, but needed to be revved for
decent performance.

The V8 3500 auto, very lively.
--
*Haunted French pancakes give me the crepes.*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
jon
2021-05-26 14:39:24 UTC
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Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Max Demian
Seriously, the only automatic car I've driven was a (grossly
underpowered) Metro, many years ago. What was different about the one
you tried?
It's interesting when you try the same auto with engine options.
Best contrast I can think of was the P6 Rover, made between about the
mid 60s to mid 70s. Both versions pretty well the same auto gearbox.
The four cylinder 2000 auto one of the slowest accelerating cars on the
road. A real dog. The 2000 manual not too bad, but needed to be revved
for decent performance.
The V8 3500 auto, very lively.
At one time I had a Rover 105R, it had a lever coming out of the dashboard
with a button on it. Press the button to operate a pneumatic clutch and
move the lever into drive, then it changed up automatically. Unfortunately
sometimes when overtaking at speed it would change down unexpectedly
blasting a big cloud of black smoke behind.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 16:48:31 UTC
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Post by jon
At one time I had a Rover 105R, it had a lever coming out of the
dashboard with a button on it. Press the button to operate a pneumatic
clutch and move the lever into drive, then it changed up automatically.
Unfortunately sometimes when overtaking at speed it would change down
unexpectedly blasting a big cloud of black smoke behind.
Two speed manual box fitted with an automatic overdrive, and torque
converter. Dunno why Rover bothered, as autos had been around for some
time. It could be the P4 didn't have room for one, being a rather old
design with a chassis.
--
*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
John Smith
2021-05-26 12:29:15 UTC
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Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
My wife only has an auto driving licence so I have been forced to buy autos.

We've had two Volvo V70s and the auto boxes are fine - the current one
has geartronic which allows you to shift gears manually so that keeps
me reasonably happy. Plus the 2.5 litre turbo engine...

I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.

But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones
except they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
R D S
2021-05-26 13:01:35 UTC
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But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones except
they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
All ours have been under 7k and we tend to keeo them for 4-5 years
before changing.

This one is 15k (missus wants something 'nice') so it has to be right.
How people shell out much more than that is beyond me.
John Smith
2021-05-26 13:10:15 UTC
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Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones
except they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
All ours have been under 7k and we tend to keeo them for 4-5 years
before changing.
This one is 15k (missus wants something 'nice') so it has to be right.
How people shell out much more than that is beyond me.
Indeed.

See if you can find a geartronic model - I think some also have
steering wheel paddles to shift gear so you can pretend to be Lewis
Hamilton.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-05-26 13:20:19 UTC
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Post by John Smith
Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones
except they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
All ours have been under 7k and we tend to keeo them for 4-5 years
before changing.
This one is 15k (missus wants something 'nice') so it has to be right.
How people shell out much more than that is beyond me.
Indeed.
See if you can find a geartronic model - I think some also have steering
wheel paddles to shift gear so you can pretend to be Lewis Hamilton.
the last three cars I have bought - freelanders and jaguar xf, have had
very easily avaiable manual mode. On the freelandar simply move the
lever over to sport mode, and then shifty up and down by pushing
forwards and backwards. Exit by going out of sport mode. The XF has
flappy paddles that override the auto box in normal mode. If not used
for a while it reverts to full auto. But other gearbox modes are
available - winter' 'performance;' and 'sport' which behave differently.
I like that - those wanting to tailor the way the auto behaves or
overriide it, can, otherwise its ok in standard mode]
--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius
R D S
2021-05-26 16:09:43 UTC
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Post by John Smith
Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones
except they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
All ours have been under 7k and we tend to keeo them for 4-5 years
before changing.
This one is 15k (missus wants something 'nice') so it has to be right.
How people shell out much more than that is beyond me.
Indeed.
See if you can find a geartronic model - I think some also have steering
wheel paddles to shift gear so you can pretend to be Lewis Hamilton.
It was a geartronic I drove.
There's so much traffic around these parts these days you end up with
clutch foot ache.
Didn't think i'd like an auto but was very pleased and now having a
complete rethink, plus as stated elsewhere, no more clutch replacement.

Headache if the box goes kaput though!

As an aside, it was interesting when I almost launched everyone through
the windscreen the first time I wanted to stop it and my left foot
instinctively went for the clutch and found the brake.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 16:51:42 UTC
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Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones
except they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
All ours have been under 7k and we tend to keeo them for 4-5 years
before changing.
This one is 15k (missus wants something 'nice') so it has to be right.
How people shell out much more than that is beyond me.
Indeed.
See if you can find a geartronic model - I think some also have steering
wheel paddles to shift gear so you can pretend to be Lewis Hamilton.
It was a geartronic I drove.
There's so much traffic around these parts these days you end up with
clutch foot ache.
Didn't think i'd like an auto but was very pleased and now having a
complete rethink, plus as stated elsewhere, no more clutch replacement.
Headache if the box goes kaput though!
As an aside, it was interesting when I almost launched everyone through
the windscreen the first time I wanted to stop it and my left foot
instinctively went for the clutch and found the brake.
The twin clutch/layshaft boxes are pretty pricey, and I'm told not easy to
fix, unlike conventional autos.

But on the forum for mine, I've not heard of any failures. Unlike clutches
on the manual version.
--
*Caution: I drive like you do.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Rod Speed
2021-05-26 23:09:11 UTC
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Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones
except they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
All ours have been under 7k and we tend to keeo them for 4-5 years
before changing.
This one is 15k (missus wants something 'nice') so it has to be right.
How people shell out much more than that is beyond me.
Indeed.
See if you can find a geartronic model - I think some also have steering
wheel paddles to shift gear so you can pretend to be Lewis Hamilton.
It was a geartronic I drove.
There's so much traffic around these parts these days you end up with
clutch foot ache.
Didn't think i'd like an auto but was very pleased and now having a
complete rethink, plus as stated elsewhere, no more clutch replacement.
Headache if the box goes kaput though!
As an aside, it was interesting when I almost launched everyone through
the windscreen the first time I wanted to stop it and my left foot
instinctively went for the clutch and found the brake.
Yeah, I didn’t used to have that problem when still working
with almost all of the work vehicles autos and mine manual
but I do now that I drive autos much less frequently.
Peeler
2021-05-27 09:26:23 UTC
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On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:09:11 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Post by Rod Speed
Yeah, I didn’t used to have that problem when still working
with almost all of the work vehicles autos and mine manual
but I do now that I drive autos much less frequently.
Seems you got no time for spending your "vast accumulated wealth" either,
you trolling senile bigmouth. LOL
--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Rod Speed
2021-05-26 23:40:08 UTC
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Post by R D S
It was a geartronic I drove.
There's so much traffic around these parts these days you end up with
clutch foot ache.
Didn't think i'd like an auto but was very pleased and now having a
complete rethink, plus as stated elsewhere, no more clutch replacement.
Headache if the box goes kaput though!
As an aside, it was interesting when I almost launched everyone through
the windscreen the first time I wanted to stop it and my left foot
instinctively went for the clutch and found the brake.
The geartronic shift up and down the gears I find useful if only that I
keep wanting to do something with my left hand... it's useful to lock the
gear in 2 say when there are a load of speed bumps close together.
Not cheap to fix if it stops working tho.
If you do go for a Volvo it has one of the best user forums for any make
and also at least one good facebook group. The forum has saved my bacon a
few times - you could ask about issues with a model here. Auto boxes like
fluid changes, which makers often don't recommend but users do.
https://www.volvoforums.org.uk
I often use my left foot for the brake, which you are not supposed to do
with an auto but I can't see any reason why not.
Because you can fuck it by using both feet at once.
ARW
2021-05-28 19:10:13 UTC
Reply
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Post by R D S
Post by John Smith
But our current Volvo is a 2005 model - no idea about recent ones
except they are costly. I've never paid more than £3500 for a car.
All ours have been under 7k and we tend to keeo them for 4-5 years
before changing.
This one is 15k (missus wants something 'nice') so it has to be right.
How people shell out much more than that is beyond me.
Just tell her red is in fashion and buy her a red 7K one.

IGMC
--
Adam
ARW
2021-05-28 19:29:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Smith
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
My wife only has an auto driving licence so I have been forced to buy autos.
We've had two Volvo V70s and the auto boxes are fine - the current one
has geartronic which allows you to shift gears manually so that keeps me
reasonably happy. Plus the 2.5 litre turbo engine...
I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.
A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.

Actually there is nothing wrong with them.

And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).

I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.
--
Adam
Rod Speed
2021-05-28 19:41:39 UTC
Reply
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Post by ARW
Post by John Smith
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
My wife only has an auto driving licence so I have been forced to buy autos.
We've had two Volvo V70s and the auto boxes are fine - the current one
has geartronic which allows you to shift gears manually so that keeps me
reasonably happy. Plus the 2.5 litre turbo engine...
I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.
A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.
Actually there is nothing wrong with them.
And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).
I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.
That’s coz you are a hoon.
Peeler
2021-05-28 20:08:09 UTC
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On Sat, 29 May 2021 05:41:39 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH more of the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>
--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID: <***@mid.individual.net>
Andy Burns
2021-05-29 19:32:32 UTC
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Post by ARW
Post by John Smith
I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.
A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.
Actually there is nothing wrong with them.
I've flip-flopped between manual and auto over the years

I'd only had petrol until 2007 when I got a 2.2 diesel manual, then in
2011 changed to a 3.0 diesel auto, then after dieselgate I didn't trust
the gov not to tax the fuck out of diesel, so went to a 2.0 turbo petrol
auto.
Post by ARW
And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).
do Fiat make DSGs?
Post by ARW
I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.
previous car was 4wd with sports diff to vector torque from side to side
as well as rear to front.

current car auto switches from fwd to 4wd, it improves fuel economy
compared to permanent 4wd, but I preferred the sports diff.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-05-30 09:00:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by ARW
Post by John Smith
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular
one having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a
couple of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
My wife only has an auto driving licence so I have been forced to buy autos.
We've had two Volvo V70s and the auto boxes are fine - the current one
has geartronic which allows you to shift gears manually so that keeps
me reasonably happy. Plus the 2.5 litre turbo engine...
I would get a petrol not diesel - I've never had a diesel.
A few years ago I said I would never have a diesel car.
Actually there is nothing wrong with them.
And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).
I miss rear wheel drive no matter what fuel it is.
Well Adam, I drive a not quite 300bhp diesel rear wheel drive car.
Jaguar XF S

If you don't like the auto box, stick it into manual mode and use the
flappy paddles...
--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy
R D S
2021-06-07 11:38:25 UTC
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Post by ARW
And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).
Is that either/or, or both :)
NY
2021-06-07 12:27:42 UTC
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Post by R D S
Post by ARW
And as you said - automatics are for girls (and spastics).
Is that either/or, or both :)
And Americans.

I once worked with a guy whose father worked for a car-hire company at an
airport. An American had booked a hire car, and because he hadn't specified
automatic, had been allocated a manual car. When my friend's father heard
the guy's accent, he offered to find an automatic instead, realising that an
American may not have ever driven a manual before.

The American said he was happy to have a manual. He was led out to the car,
which was parked in a line of cars parked nose-to-tail. He got in, revved
the car up to about 2000 rpm and the car lurched forwards violently when he
let the clutch in, hitting the car in front and sending it into the car in
front of that. Before the hire employee could stop him, he put the car into
reverse to try to extricate himself, and did the same thing to the cars
behind.

In about 10 seconds he had written off five cars: the one he was driving,
the two in front of him and the two behind. He lost his no-damage deposit...
charles
2021-05-26 12:44:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
I had a 2nd hand auto in the '80s. When I could afford it, I went back to
manual. However, since SWMBO has an auto. I got an auto 8 years ago so
that she could share long distance driving. She never has, but I'm very
happy with my current (Mazda) auto - no think required.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Clive Arthur
2021-05-26 12:46:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Autos are good if you spend a lot of time in slow moving city traffic.
Almost pointless if motorways are all you do.
--
Cheers
Clive
jon
2021-05-26 13:10:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Autos are good if you spend a lot of time in slow moving city traffic.
Almost pointless if motorways are all you do.
It makes no difference on motorways, not having to change gear.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 13:33:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Autos are good if you spend a lot of time in slow moving city traffic.
Almost pointless if motorways are all you do.
Not so sure about that. With an auto, you can use a very tall top gear to
get the very best MPG. So tall that it may have to change down on a
motorway incline. Very few manuals are that high geared.
--
*If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
bert
2021-05-27 15:18:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Clive Arthur
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove
one yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular
one having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a
couple of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Autos are good if you spend a lot of time in slow moving city traffic.
Almost pointless if motorways are all you do.
They work well with adaptive cruise control.
--
bert
polygonum_on_google
2021-05-27 18:45:50 UTC
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Permalink
Post by bert
They work well with adaptive cruise control.
It has become such an integral part of driving my car, I'd forgotten to even think about mentioning that!

Mine will even come to a complete stop and then start again without intervention.

Having used standard cruise control, adaptive is just so much nicer.
Rod Speed
2021-05-27 19:14:56 UTC
Reply
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Post by polygonum_on_google
Post by bert
They work well with adaptive cruise control.
It has become such an integral part of driving my car, I'd forgotten to
even think about mentioning that!
Mine will even come to a complete stop and then start again without intervention.
The Honda will do full cruise control even in stop start traffic jams.
Post by polygonum_on_google
Having used standard cruise control, adaptive is just so much nicer.
The big thing they still wont do is track the change in speed limit thru
towns
on highways. That will happen soon because its EU mandated in the near
future.
Peeler
2021-05-27 19:45:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 May 2021 05:14:56 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>
--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Chris J Dixon
2021-05-27 19:17:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by polygonum_on_google
Post by bert
They work well with adaptive cruise control.
It has become such an integral part of driving my car, I'd forgotten to even think about mentioning that!
Mine will even come to a complete stop and then start again without intervention.
Having used standard cruise control, adaptive is just so much nicer.
I guess that will be something to look forward to with my next
car, not that I expect that to be any time soon.

How fast does it put the anchors on if someone cuts sharply in
front of you?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.
bert
2021-05-26 12:45:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
I prefer autos, definitely. They've improved immensely. There are of
course different types now but the principle is the same. 90% of the
time in a manual your responses are dictated to you by engine road speed
and desire to accelerate or otherwise.
I've had auto 1100, Daf 44, metro, Polo, Renault 5, Volvo 740, 940, VW
Transporter, Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee, Defender V8, Suzuki Alto.

When you drive one regularly you realise just how automatic driving a
manual actually is and you get rid of all that pointless left foot down
up work and gear changing actually is.
Favourite was probably the DAF with its CVR system. I was reading up on
Suburus recently and couldn't believe that they have actually gone to
the trouble of building in step functions into their CVR system to make
it feel like a "normal" automatic. The customer reviews slated it.

But it is down to personal choice in the end. Don't think the question
arises with EVs
--
bert
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-27 15:23:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bert
Favourite was probably the DAF with its CVR system. I was reading up on
Suburus recently and couldn't believe that they have actually gone to
the trouble of building in step functions into their CVR system to make
it feel like a "normal" automatic. The customer reviews slated it.
Interesting that these rubber band CVT transmissions were all the rage a
few years ago with smaller cars from the larger makers like Ford. Not
anymore.
--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Burns
2021-05-29 18:18:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Interesting that these rubber band CVT transmissions were all the rage a
few years ago with smaller cars from the larger makers like Ford. Not
anymore.
Audi do/did make a steel band version "multitronic", it was also
programmed to be have discrete steps rather than be continuously
variable (at least in certain modes)
The Natural Philosopher
2021-05-26 13:07:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
I am more or less 'all auto' since about 2008 and 50 50 since 2000
largely because manual Jaguars disappeared completely.

First of all one is not 'better' than the other. That's binary Boolean
ArtStudent™ thinking.

There are pros and cons. Some of which can be addressed by a different
driving style.

The great plus of a manual is that you can *put* it in the right gear
for what you are doing, and then there is no downshift lag.

The great plus of an automatic is that for people who haven't a clue
what the correct gear is, it makes a reasonable guess.

Another great plus of an automatic, is that power assisted clutch pedals
never caught on, and in heavy traffic or urban streets, you are not
wanking your left leg off operating a heavy clutch

What this boils down to is that you have better control in a manual, but
its a darned sight more relaxing to drive an auto. They also protect
your engine from being overrevved in low gears.

And in the limit they have manual override these days if you are in a
tearing rush

A friend of mine - getting on - smashed his auto while reversing it up a
steep slope - no clutch control available. I told him that I use the
brake as a clutch for that. It works. Change of style is indicated and
left foot braking

Each auto needs a slighhtl;y diferent technique to get it to do what YOU
want it todo rather wthan what it thinks it should be doing. I am still
working on te top strategy ffor my XF. My old means of hgetting a speedy
getaway - revving with foot on brake - is not good, as it leads to
hiccups in the engine management system and warning lights on te dash if
you do too much brake and accelerator

Manual mode seems a bit better
--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 13:30:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
There is little comparison between autos of old and the best modern ones.

Up until about 40 years ago, they were commonly three speed with a torque
convertor. This slowed the same car down over a manual, and increased the
fuel consumption. Only really reasonably satisfactory in a large engined
car.

There are basically two types today. The same idea epicyclic box with
torque converter but many more ratios. 8 not being uncommon. With the
power lossy TC locked out for much of the time - really just used for
moving off from rest. All computer controlled.

The second one is a robotised manual synchromesh box with a conventional
but automatic clutch. The most efficient in terms of MPG and performance.
The better versions of this idea use effectively two gearboxes and
clutches. One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
--
wife.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
jon
2021-05-26 13:42:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
There is little comparison between autos of old and the best modern ones.
Up until about 40 years ago, they were commonly three speed with a
torque convertor. This slowed the same car down over a manual, and
increased the fuel consumption. Only really reasonably satisfactory in a
large engined car.
There are basically two types today. The same idea epicyclic box with
torque converter but many more ratios. 8 not being uncommon. With the
power lossy TC locked out for much of the time - really just used for
moving off from rest. All computer controlled.
The second one is a robotised manual synchromesh box with a conventional
but automatic clutch. The most efficient in terms of MPG and
performance.
The better versions of this idea use effectively two gearboxes and
clutches. One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And
changing between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When
the car is in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process
repeated. This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow
under pretty well all conditions.
My Golf R does that.
Fredxx
2021-05-26 13:47:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 26/05/2021 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

<snip>
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
A friend of mine remarked how dangerous these were.

Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate
how long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.

On one of these the gearboxes the parallel box will be sitting in 4th
gear, and so has to make the relevant movements to go into second before
operating the clutch. Thus maybe sitting on the wrong side of the road
whilst wanting to pass a slow vehicle for much longer than expected.

This was his take and I confess not to ever having driven one.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 16:42:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
<snip>
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
A friend of mine remarked how dangerous these were.
He's a nutcase, then.
Post by Fredxx
Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate
how long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.
As you can also with modern autos.
Post by Fredxx
On one of these the gearboxes the parallel box will be sitting in 4th
gear, and so has to make the relevant movements to go into second before
operating the clutch. Thus maybe sitting on the wrong side of the road
whilst wanting to pass a slow vehicle for much longer than expected.
It kicks down far quicker than the average driver can manage with a manual
box. If you see a gap that allows you to overtake, you have to change down
in a manual. This takes more time than it takes an auto to change down by
flooring the pedal. On either, you can grind along in a low gear waiting
for the opportunity to overtake.
Post by Fredxx
This was his take and I confess not to ever having driven one.
I doubt he has either.
--
*Marathon runners with bad footwear suffer the agony of defeat*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Burns
2021-05-26 19:12:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate
how long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.
As you can also with modern autos.
About 1/5 of a second to change with a double clutch, unless you "catch
it out" e.g. it was in 3rd on the "odd half" and has 4th ready to go on
the "even half" but then you hoof it, so now it needs 2nd on the "even
half", so that makes it a bit slower.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-05-27 06:57:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate
how long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.
As you can also with modern autos.
About 1/5 of a second to change with a double clutch, unless you "catch
it out" e.g. it was in 3rd on the "odd half" and has 4th ready to go on
the "even half" but then you hoof it, so now it needs 2nd on the "even
half", so that makes it a bit slower.
Its not the time to change, its the time to *decide* to change...
--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard
Rod Speed
2021-05-26 23:15:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
<snip>
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
A friend of mine remarked how dangerous these were.
He's a nutcase, then.
Post by Fredxx
Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate
how long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.
As you can also with modern autos.
Post by Fredxx
On one of these the gearboxes the parallel box will be sitting in 4th
gear, and so has to make the relevant movements to go into second before
operating the clutch. Thus maybe sitting on the wrong side of the road
whilst wanting to pass a slow vehicle for much longer than expected.
It kicks down far quicker than the average driver can manage with a manual
box. If you see a gap that allows you to overtake, you have to change down
in a manual.
No you don’t, I never do that.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
This takes more time than it takes an auto to change down
by flooring the pedal. On either, you can grind along in a
low gear waiting for the opportunity to overtake.
Or you are driving a car with a decent power to weight
ratio which can overtake fine without changing down.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
This was his take and I confess not to ever having driven one.
I doubt he has either.
Peeler
2021-05-27 09:27:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 09:15:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest trollshit unread>
--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"Shit you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: <ogoa38$pul$***@news.mixmin.net>
Tim+
2021-05-26 17:02:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
<snip>
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
A friend of mine remarked how dangerous these were.
Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate
how long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.
On one of these the gearboxes the parallel box will be sitting in 4th
gear, and so has to make the relevant movements to go into second before
operating the clutch. Thus maybe sitting on the wrong side of the road
whilst wanting to pass a slow vehicle for much longer than expected.
This was his take and I confess not to ever having driven one.
You friend is an idiot. ;-)

These boxes can change so quickly that in practice, they can drop gears and
accelerated faster than you could in a manual. No need to press the
clutch, pick a gear, let the clutch out again etc, just stomp the go pedal.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Fredxx
2021-05-26 17:32:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
Post by Fredxx
<snip>
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
A friend of mine remarked how dangerous these were.
Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate
how long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.
On one of these the gearboxes the parallel box will be sitting in 4th
gear, and so has to make the relevant movements to go into second before
operating the clutch. Thus maybe sitting on the wrong side of the road
whilst wanting to pass a slow vehicle for much longer than expected.
This was his take and I confess not to ever having driven one.
You friend is an idiot. ;-)
These boxes can change so quickly that in practice, they can drop gears and
accelerated faster than you could in a manual. No need to press the
clutch, pick a gear, let the clutch out again etc, just stomp the go pedal.
The point is the gearbox was sitting in 4th whilst he was driving in
3rd, and took a while to move to 2nd. Perhaps these gearboxes are not
all the same. He was quite adamant on how long he was waiting for power
to kick in.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-05-26 19:15:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
These boxes can change so quickly that in practice, they can drop gears and
accelerated faster than you could in a manual. No need to press the
clutch, pick a gear, let the clutch out again etc, just stomp the go pedal.
They may be able to, but on practice they dont. Up to to a second lag
--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.
Rod Speed
2021-05-26 23:02:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
<snip>
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
A friend of mine remarked how dangerous these were.
Lets suppose you want instant power, with a manual you can anticipate how
long it takes to go from say 3rd to 2nd gear.
On one of these the gearboxes the parallel box will be sitting in 4th
gear, and so has to make the relevant movements to go into second before
operating the clutch. Thus maybe sitting on the wrong side of the road
whilst wanting to pass a slow vehicle for much longer than expected.
In that situation it usually makes more sense to apply the brakes than
go for instant power because you have much more braking power
than acceleration power available at those speeds when overtaking.
Post by Fredxx
This was his take and I confess not to ever having driven one.
newshound
2021-05-26 14:34:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
There is little comparison between autos of old and the best modern ones.
Up until about 40 years ago, they were commonly three speed with a torque
convertor. This slowed the same car down over a manual, and increased the
fuel consumption. Only really reasonably satisfactory in a large engined
car.
There are basically two types today. The same idea epicyclic box with
torque converter but many more ratios. 8 not being uncommon. With the
power lossy TC locked out for much of the time - really just used for
moving off from rest. All computer controlled.
The second one is a robotised manual synchromesh box with a conventional
but automatic clutch. The most efficient in terms of MPG and performance.
The better versions of this idea use effectively two gearboxes and
clutches. One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
There's also the CVT type as found in small Hondas. Very nice indeed,
especially in town or heavy motorway traffic.
JohnP
2021-05-26 15:26:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I drive a Hybrid. I think of it as an electrically enabled automatic! A
Pwer Split planetary gear shares power between motor and engine. No clutch
- no changes. I love it.
Theo
2021-05-26 15:53:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JohnP
I drive a Hybrid. I think of it as an electrically enabled automatic! A
Pwer Split planetary gear shares power between motor and engine. No clutch
- no changes. I love it.
+1

Having driven three versions of Toyotas:
- computer controlled clutch 'semi-auto'
- CVT auto
- hybrid e-CVT

The e-CVT is a lot smoother, and the advantage is it can combine motor and
engine for extra acceleration grunt when you need it.

A manual would be a substantial retrograde step IMHO.

Theo
soup
2021-05-27 17:10:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by JohnP
I drive a Hybrid. I think of it as an electrically enabled automatic! A
Pwer Split planetary gear shares power between motor and engine. No clutch
- no changes. I love it.
+1
- computer controlled clutch 'semi-auto'
- CVT auto
- hybrid e-CVT
The e-CVT is a lot smoother, and the advantage is it can combine motor and
engine for extra acceleration grunt when you need it.
A manual would be a substantial retrograde step IMHO.
+2
Used to drive a Ford Fusion (manual)
Now I drive a Toyota Yaris hybrid (well it is actually my son's
Motability car but as I am the one with the license...).
Both these are/where small cars so gutless .
But the Yaris is a VAST improvement on the Fusion's 'play tunes' with
the selector to get the best out of it.

The Yaris has an auto box (e-CVT) that is really smooth .

Along with the motor/engine combo' It has 'kick-down' for overtaking etc.

Driving it is so very easy

In fact so easy that with cruise control set I become a steering wheel
attendant so my mind can wander, never to dangerous levels but I
sometimes realise that I have no memory of covering the last mile.

It gets a bit 'floaty' at motorway speeds[1],but it is meant as a
city car anyway.




[1] I ONCE did 85 along a local dual carriageway/pretend motorway
(Edinburgh city by pass[A720]) as we had a bit of an emergency call to
the Royal Infirmary Edinburgh (RIE). Found the car was affected by
every wee puff of side wind. After about the tenth time thought it was
better to get there a little late than to get taken there in a fast
white so pulled over into the lane with the lorries and settled down to
56 mph
Tim Streater
2021-05-27 17:34:27 UTC
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Post by soup
In fact so easy that with cruise control set I become a steering wheel
attendant so my mind can wander, never to dangerous levels but I
sometimes realise that I have no memory of covering the last mile.
Some 20 years ago I was listening to a story tape while driving to Chester. I
got off the M6 onto the M54 with a view to going up the A41. I started the
tape on the M54. Next thing I knew I was in a big city, and the autopilot
switched off. No idea where I was but eventually worked out I was, in fact, in
Chester, having overshot the actual destination by a few miles. I had no
recollection at all of the preceding 50-odd miles. Haven't listened to a voice
tape/disc since.
--
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without
evidence."
-- Christopher Hitchens
Joey
2021-05-27 18:51:29 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tim Streater
Post by soup
In fact so easy that with cruise control set I become a steering wheel
attendant so my mind can wander, never to dangerous levels but I
sometimes realise that I have no memory of covering the last mile.
Some 20 years ago I was listening to a story tape while driving to Chester. I
got off the M6 onto the M54 with a view to going up the A41. I started the
tape on the M54. Next thing I knew I was in a big city, and the autopilot
switched off. No idea where I was but eventually worked out I was, in fact, in
Chester, having overshot the actual destination by a few miles. I had no
recollection at all of the preceding 50-odd miles. Haven't listened to a voice
tape/disc since.
Never had anything like that and I listen to podcasts instead of music
when on a decent trip.
Joey
2021-05-27 23:11:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joey
Post by Tim Streater
Post by soup
In fact so easy that with cruise control set I become a steering wheel
attendant so my mind can wander, never to dangerous levels but I
sometimes realise that I have no memory of covering the last mile.
Some 20 years ago I was listening to a story tape while driving to Chester. I
got off the M6 onto the M54 with a view to going up the A41. I started the
tape on the M54. Next thing I knew I was in a big city, and the autopilot
switched off. No idea where I was but eventually worked out I was, in fact, in
Chester, having overshot the actual destination by a few miles. I had no
recollection at all of the preceding 50-odd miles. Haven't listened to a voice
tape/disc since.
Never had anything like that and I listen to podcasts instead of music
when on a decent trip.
I do not listen to podcasts or chat radio precisely because of Tim's
experience. At least with 'radio music' you can stop listening
instantly if road conditions dictate. Whereas if it's a podcast/talk
radio/audio book, you tend to get enthralled in that and not realise
what is happening.
I don’t.
Maybe I am just of the easily distracted type.
Yep, bet that’s it with you two.
Sorely tempted to put some form of 'look squirrel' comment in there.
Peeler
2021-05-28 06:52:19 UTC
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On Fri, 28 May 2021 09:11:50 +1000, Joey, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>
--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Rod Speed
2021-05-26 22:50:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by newshound
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
There is little comparison between autos of old and the best modern ones.
Up until about 40 years ago, they were commonly three speed with a torque
convertor. This slowed the same car down over a manual, and increased the
fuel consumption. Only really reasonably satisfactory in a large engined
car.
There are basically two types today. The same idea epicyclic box with
torque converter but many more ratios. 8 not being uncommon. With the
power lossy TC locked out for much of the time - really just used for
moving off from rest. All computer controlled.
The second one is a robotised manual synchromesh box with a conventional
but automatic clutch. The most efficient in terms of MPG and performance.
The better versions of this idea use effectively two gearboxes and
clutches. One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
There's also the CVT type as found in small Hondas. Very nice indeed,
especially in town or heavy motorway traffic.
Be interesting to see some stats on how well they last.

Don’t like the idea much myself, even when all metal and oil.
Peeler
2021-05-26 22:57:57 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 27 May 2021 08:50:19 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>
--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Chris J Dixon
2021-05-26 17:27:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
There is little comparison between autos of old and the best modern ones.
Up until about 40 years ago, they were commonly three speed with a torque
convertor. This slowed the same car down over a manual, and increased the
fuel consumption. Only really reasonably satisfactory in a large engined
car.
There are basically two types today. The same idea epicyclic box with
torque converter but many more ratios. 8 not being uncommon. With the
power lossy TC locked out for much of the time - really just used for
moving off from rest. All computer controlled.
The second one is a robotised manual synchromesh box with a conventional
but automatic clutch. The most efficient in terms of MPG and performance.
The better versions of this idea use effectively two gearboxes and
clutches. One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
My first automatic was a 2009 Mondeo which I believe had a torque
converter, and I am now running a 2016 Mondeo which I think is
the twin clutch type, and has flappy paddles, should I choose to
use them, which is pretty seldom.

Both simply worked, gave me sufficient performance for my needs,
and they were both pretty smooth in operation. I guess the only
time I really get my foot hard to the floor is towing the caravan
onto a slip road.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.
Rod Speed
2021-05-26 22:21:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
There is little comparison between autos of old and the best modern ones.
Up until about 40 years ago, they were commonly three speed with a torque
convertor. This slowed the same car down over a manual, and increased the
fuel consumption. Only really reasonably satisfactory in a large engined
car.
There are basically two types today. The same idea epicyclic box with
torque converter but many more ratios. 8 not being uncommon. With the
power lossy TC locked out for much of the time - really just used for
moving off from rest. All computer controlled.
The second one is a robotised manual synchromesh box with a conventional
but automatic clutch. The most efficient in terms of MPG and performance.
The better versions of this idea use effectively two gearboxes and
clutches. One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
There is also the CVTs. Don’t really like the idea of those long term
life wise even when they use metal chains instead of rubber belts.
Peeler
2021-05-26 22:33:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 08:21:59 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>
--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That’s because so much piss and shite emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a Wanker."
Message-ID: <***@mid.individual.net>
bert
2021-05-27 15:27:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
There is little comparison between autos of old and the best modern ones.
Up until about 40 years ago, they were commonly three speed with a torque
convertor. This slowed the same car down over a manual, and increased the
fuel consumption. Only really reasonably satisfactory in a large engined
car.
There are basically two types today. The same idea epicyclic box with
torque converter but many more ratios. 8 not being uncommon. With the
power lossy TC locked out for much of the time - really just used for
moving off from rest. All computer controlled.
The second one is a robotised manual synchromesh box with a conventional
but automatic clutch. The most efficient in terms of MPG and performance.
The better versions of this idea use effectively two gearboxes and
clutches. One gearbox has the odd gears, the other the even. And changing
between say 1st to 2nd is done by swapping the clutches. When the car is
in 2nd gear, the other box has selected 3rd, and the process repeated.
This arrangement can give a virtually seamless power flow under pretty
well all conditions.
There is a 3rd type, the Continuously Variable Transmission. Originated
on the DAF I think. Still used by Honda and Suburu. Had a DAF 44 many
year ago. Quite amusing to drive, but very good ins now as each wheel
could change ratio independently.
--
bert
John Rumm
2021-05-26 16:54:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I know someone with one - he rather liked it, although was less
impressed when it developed a gearbox fault and Volvo wanted north of 5K
to fix it!
Post by R D S
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Historically I have always favoured a manual, but the last time I was
looking for a car I could only get what I wanted with an auto.

In the past I had driven other people's 3 speed autos and did not really
like them. However the one I got has a more modern 5 speed "tiptronic"
style box with various modes including "full manual" shift as one
option, and it has to be said its a world apart from the autos of old.

(I would expect a more modern auto to be even better - mine is now an
older genration design since its in a 2003 2L twin scroll turbo Subaru
Legacy GT).

It has several modes - Eco (supposed to make it more economical at the
expense of a more "lazy" shifting routine) - I never use it since it
makes it a bit less responsive and makes little if any difference to the
fuel consumption. Normal mode is ok for day to day stuff and nice in
heavy traffic, and quite intelligent at changing down when it needs to.
Sport mode is like normal but down shifts more readily, and gives more
engine braking assist.

Then full manual where you can nudge the stick up and down, or use
buttons on the wheel. That is good on the twisty turny stuff for having
a bit more fun or for terrifying unsuspecting passengers (it looks like
a family estate, but goes, stops, and changes direction quite unlike
one! :-)

You can also use the button on the wheel in normal or eco modes to
temporarily override the car's choice of gear. That is a bit of a mixed
blessing - in some cases its really nice - like descending a steep hill
you can just nudge the gear up and down to control the speed, or get a
bit more feel and control from a lower gear going into a corner. At
other times it tries to be a bit too clever and ends up second guessing
what you want.

So all in all, I would be happy to have another, and might even choose
one (manuals are harder to find and more expensive on JDM scoobies), but
there are a few pros and cons depending on the driving you are doing.
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Tim Streater
2021-05-26 20:13:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Rumm
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I know someone with one - he rather liked it, although was less
impressed when it developed a gearbox fault and Volvo wanted north of 5K
to fix it!
Post by R D S
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Historically I have always favoured a manual, but the last time I was
looking for a car I could only get what I wanted with an auto.
I couldn't be arsed to deal with a manual these days. And my feet are now in a
state where pressing the clutch is very uncomfortable. So I'm sticking and
will continue to stick with some flavour of auto, presently the sun/planet
thingy that Toyota uses. And it gets me 60mpg most of the time.
--
Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it, and Hell
where they already have it.

Ronald Reagan
David Wade
2021-05-26 17:29:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
I don't know about the XC60, I have a Mercedes C220 which has the DSG
box. It has a (semi) manual mode which I seldom use. I say "semi manual"
because it will override your selection to prevent over-revving or stalling.

I think once you get above 5-gears you really can't keep track. The Merc
can be persuaded to change down when you want a little more get up and go.

A friend bought a jag because it had a manual box. He took me for a ride
to show how good it was. He was in the wrong gear 90% of the time...

Dave
Andy Burns
2021-05-26 18:24:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
Was it what volvo call the "powershift" double clutch? If so that's
what I'd opt for ...
Michael Chare
2021-05-26 18:46:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
About 5 years ago I hire a Jeep in the USA. I had to stop driving it up
a hill because the automatic gear box overheated and a warning light
came on.
--
Michael Chare
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-26 19:01:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Chare
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
About 5 years ago I hire a Jeep in the USA. I had to stop driving it up
a hill because the automatic gear box overheated and a warning light
came on.
Odd, really, as once the US made the very best autos. Even Rolls chose to
fit them. But about 40 years ago they sat on their laurels and it's now
Germany which leads the way. Of course with cheap fuel they didn't see the
need for a more efficient auto - just fitted a bigger engine for more go.
--
*Windows will never cease *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
bert
2021-05-27 21:55:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Michael Chare
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
About 5 years ago I hire a Jeep in the USA. I had to stop driving it up
a hill because the automatic gear box overheated and a warning light
came on.
Odd, really, as once the US made the very best autos. Even Rolls chose to
fit them. But about 40 years ago they sat on their laurels and it's now
Germany which leads the way. Of course with cheap fuel they didn't see the
need for a more efficient auto - just fitted a bigger engine for more go.
I've had a couple of Jeep autos, excellent boxes.
--
bert
polygonum_on_google
2021-05-26 21:48:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It
certainly wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple
of grand.
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
I've driven numerous manuals and autos over the years - and would be perfectly content never to use a manual ever again.

As has been said, in stop-start heavy traffic, an auto is far nicer. And at motorway speeds - who cares? You are in top gear most of the time.

Last manual I had was a Saab 900 16V turbo. But once you were doing over about 20, you could stick it into fifth and hardly ever change. (Not actually a good idea, but it could cope.)

Currently have a VAG with 7 speed DSG box. Yes, it has paddles but I never use them. Occasionally I switch to Sport mode for a particular bit where I might want it to be a bit more lively. But most of the time, happy for it to manage - and watch it go into two-cylinder mode, or full coasting, as it decides.

Also often drive a Toyota hybrid. Even nicer at 0-5 mph.
Theo
2021-05-27 10:57:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by polygonum_on_google
Also often drive a Toyota hybrid. Even nicer at 0-5 mph.
It's interesting that the Toyota Yaris went from five engine options in the
2017 model:

1.0 petrol manual
1.3 petrol manual
1.3 petrol auto
1.4 diesel manual
1.5 petrol hybrid auto

to just the hybrid auto in the 2020 version.

Looks like they've decided manual isn't worthwhile any more.

Theo
Tim+
2021-05-27 12:07:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by polygonum_on_google
Also often drive a Toyota hybrid. Even nicer at 0-5 mph.
It's interesting that the Toyota Yaris went from five engine options in the
1.0 petrol manual
1.3 petrol manual
1.3 petrol auto
1.4 diesel manual
1.5 petrol hybrid auto
to just the hybrid auto in the 2020 version.
Looks like they've decided manual isn't worthwhile any more.
More likely they’ve decided that pure petrol/diesel isn’t worthwhile. The
auto box is just part and parcel of the hybrid design.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
polygonum_on_google
2021-05-27 12:28:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by polygonum_on_google
Also often drive a Toyota hybrid. Even nicer at 0-5 mph.
It's interesting that the Toyota Yaris went from five engine options in the
1.0 petrol manual
1.3 petrol manual
1.3 petrol auto
1.4 diesel manual
1.5 petrol hybrid auto
to just the hybrid auto in the 2020 version.
Looks like they've decided manual isn't worthwhile any more.
Theo
I know the older automatic was horrible - maybe the 2016 model. But agree with Tim+ - suspect it is simply getting away from non-hybrid. Except for the GR Yaris!
Theo
2021-05-27 14:38:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by polygonum_on_google
I know the older automatic was horrible - maybe the 2016 model. But agree
with Tim+ - suspect it is simply getting away from non-hybrid. Except for
the GR Yaris!
The 2008 computer-clutch semi-auto was terrible[1], as was the diesel (felt
like driving a Transit). The 2011-2020 CVT auto was better, but still
somewhat laggy. The hybrid is much better.

You're right though - the hybrid is the better car and the manual is a
casualty of focusing on that, rather than killing the manual but keeping the
CVT auto.

Theo

[1] still to be found in the current Aygo
Rod Speed
2021-05-26 21:54:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one having
driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It certainly
wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
I never have had a problem with the work vehicles which were mostly autos.

Up till now I have chosen to have a manual, mainly because I
do keep my cars a long time and manuals are less likely to fail.

But I have been considering replacing the current car
with a new one to get a very fancy cruise control which
would be handy on long trips. My current car has no
cruise control at all. Autos are better with cruise controls
and would be convenient around town as you don’t have
to change gears at corners etc.

But I prefer small cars and most of them have CVT autos
now and I don’t really like the idea of those much.
Post by R D S
But if I come back to the idea i'd prefer a manual I can save a couple of
grand.
I don’t really care about the price difference.
Post by R D S
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Peeler
2021-05-26 22:24:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 27 May 2021 07:54:58 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Post by Rod Speed
Post by R D S
I'm looking for a car, XC60 2.0 D4 if anyone has any opinions on those.
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one having
driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto. It certainly
wasn't like autos of old that i've driven.
I never have had a problem with the work vehicles which were mostly autos.
Oh, fuck! ...and this innocent little thread was Rodent-free so far! <tsk>
--
Hawk addressing the obnoxious senile Australian pest:
"I'm willing to bet you scream your own name when jacking off."
MID: <s78tjv$14d$***@dont-email.me>
JohnP
2021-05-28 13:34:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Take care - CVT is sometimes used to describe a Hybrid - yet many think it
means the cone pulley / Belt/ Chain arrangement. My hybrid uses a
planetary differential to combine engine and motor. Some call it CVT.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-05-28 14:21:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JohnP
Post by R D S
Looking for opinions from anyone who's changed sides.
Take care - CVT is sometimes used to describe a Hybrid - yet many think it
means the cone pulley / Belt/ Chain arrangement. My hybrid uses a
planetary differential to combine engine and motor. Some call it CVT.
Yup - that was the fault of Toyota on the original Prius. Used to describe
what is more a differential drive. Perhaps CVT wasn't a copyright name?
--
*Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Theo
2021-05-28 16:17:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by JohnP
Take care - CVT is sometimes used to describe a Hybrid - yet many think it
means the cone pulley / Belt/ Chain arrangement. My hybrid uses a
planetary differential to combine engine and motor. Some call it CVT.
Yup - that was the fault of Toyota on the original Prius. Used to describe
what is more a differential drive. Perhaps CVT wasn't a copyright name?
They called it an 'e-CVT'. Which is what it is, an electronic
continuously variable transmission. The innards don't bear much relation to
the belt drive CVT, but the way it drives is like a CVT (although with a
slightly different - less squishy - feel).

(Some CVTs have fake-manual gears which are just fixed ratios on the CVT you
can select - possibly useful for getting you out of a snowdrift but
otherwise mostly pointless given the computer can select an infinite range)

Theo
bert
2021-05-28 19:21:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by JohnP
Take care - CVT is sometimes used to describe a Hybrid - yet many think it
means the cone pulley / Belt/ Chain arrangement. My hybrid uses a
planetary differential to combine engine and motor. Some call it CVT.
Yup - that was the fault of Toyota on the original Prius. Used to describe
what is more a differential drive. Perhaps CVT wasn't a copyright name?
They called it an 'e-CVT'. Which is what it is, an electronic
continuously variable transmission. The innards don't bear much relation to
the belt drive CVT, but the way it drives is like a CVT (although with a
slightly different - less squishy - feel).
(Some CVTs have fake-manual gears which are just fixed ratios on the CVT you
can select - possibly useful for getting you out of a snowdrift but
otherwise mostly pointless given the computer can select an infinite range)
Theo
The Suburu does. Utterly pointless to me, undoing one of the advantages
of CVT
--
bert
John Rumm
2021-05-31 17:54:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bert
Post by JohnP
Post by JohnP
Take care - CVT is sometimes used to describe a Hybrid - yet many
think it
Post by JohnP
means the cone pulley / Belt/ Chain arrangement.  My hybrid uses a
planetary differential to combine engine and motor. Some call it CVT.
Yup - that was the fault of Toyota on the original Prius. Used to describe
what is more a differential drive. Perhaps CVT wasn't a copyright name?
They called it an 'e-CVT'.  Which is what it is, an electronic
continuously variable transmission.  The innards don't bear much
relation to
the belt drive CVT, but the way it drives is like a CVT (although with a
slightly different - less squishy - feel).
(Some CVTs have fake-manual gears which are just fixed ratios on the CVT you
can select - possibly useful for getting you out of a snowdrift but
otherwise mostly pointless given the computer can select an infinite range)
Theo
The Suburu does. Utterly pointless to me, undoing one of the advantages
of CVT
The only model of Levorg they sell in the UK is like that... they
claimed that that is what drivers preferred! (not to mention that 1.6
turbo is the only engine option)

(personally I would have the JDM 2.5L Turbo with a conventional gearbox)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
R D S
2021-06-07 11:03:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.
Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.

I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking? Or do they chew through pads?

And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake
lights for years, i've probably been behind autos.
NY
2021-06-07 11:35:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
Post by R D S
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one having
driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.
Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.
I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during braking?
Or do they chew through pads?
And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake lights
for years, i've probably been behind autos.
I've never owned an automatic. The few times I've driven one as a hire car
when going on business journeys, I've found that I have to fight them. Mind
you, the last time I drove an automatic (Ford Focus) was about 20 years ago,
and technology has changed.

With that caveat about old technology, I found it difficult to accelerate
smoothly through a roundabout. In a manual I would change into the correct
gear (eg 3rd) as I had finished braking and as I was about to enter the
roundabout, and then I would *stay* in that gear as I accelerated round and
out of the roundabout, changing up to a higher gear when I'd finished the
acceleration.

Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a sudden,
unexpected surge of power. I never mastered the trick of being able to get
just the right amount of accelerator pressure so I accelerated in the
*correct* gear (dropping into 2nd is usually not the right gear!). I either
got too little acceleration in one gear or else too much in the next gear
down.

At traffic lights, and when doing a hill start, I would *always* use the
handbrake to hold the car. And in traffic lights, I'd go into neutral so the
car would not creep forwards: I will not hold a car on the footbrake because
this dazzles the car behind (especially at night) with my brake lights. My
instructor (ex police Class 1 instructor) drummed into me "footbrake for
stopping the car; handbrake for *staying* stopped". If I stop in a queue of
traffic, I go into neutral with handbrake if I anticipate that I will not be
setting off again for more than about 10 seconds.

Oh, and in an automatic I *always* use my right foot for braking, as in a
manual, because my left foot has too much muscle-memory of big clutch
movements rather than small, precise footbrake/accelerator movements. The
only exception is for manoeuvring inch-by-inch, when accelerator alone
doesn't give enough control (the car tends to move in surges) and where in a
manual I'd keep constant engine speed (maybe foot-off idling) and control
the speed by letting the clutch up to the bite point and then lowering it
again once the car is moving.

Even in out manual Honda CRV which has hill-start assist, I do not use this
feature because I do not trust it: I've had the car roll backwards a foot or
so, so I always use the handbrake - that's that it's there for.


I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear but the gearbox took the hassle out of
*how* the gearchange was achieved, giving a smoother up- or down- change. I
wonder how good DSGs are at doing block-changes - eg brake into a hazard
while remaining in 6th, and then change directly into the correct gear for
accelerating out of it, without the need to change sequentially down through
the gears (like I was taught for my normal test in 1980, before that test
adopted the IAM technique of block changes as I did for my 1990 IAM test).

My ideal car would be a DSG with a manual clutch pedal that was only used
when setting off from rest, and where an automatic clutch or torque
converter can engage a bit jerkily.
R D S
2021-06-07 11:50:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
I've never owned an automatic. The few times I've driven one as a hire
car when going on business journeys, I've found that I have to fight
them. Mind you, the last time I drove an automatic (Ford Focus) was
about 20 years ago, and technology has changed.
Similar timeframe, it's a completely different beast to what I recall
driving and the way my dad's cars behaved.
Post by NY
Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a
sudden, unexpected surge of power.
I find i'm driving it gentler than I would my manual for partly this
reason, it *might* make me a 'better' driver. But i'm learning to
accelerate with less caning by progressively depressing the pedal.
I think it has an eco mode for gentler operation, I need to RTFM.
Post by NY
I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear
I wondered if i'd be inclined to take over gear changes, it has a manual
mode.
I've had the car since Friday, been out a good few times (as you do with
a new one) used the manual side once briefly and concluded that I will
probably use it very rarely. Perhaps on hilly & bendy roads.
Tim+
2021-06-07 11:56:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Post by R D S
Post by R D S
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one having
driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.
Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.
I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during braking?
Or do they chew through pads?
And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake lights
for years, i've probably been behind autos.
I've never owned an automatic. The few times I've driven one as a hire car
when going on business journeys, I've found that I have to fight them. Mind
you, the last time I drove an automatic (Ford Focus) was about 20 years ago,
and technology has changed.
With that caveat about old technology, I found it difficult to accelerate
smoothly through a roundabout. In a manual I would change into the correct
gear (eg 3rd) as I had finished braking and as I was about to enter the
roundabout, and then I would *stay* in that gear as I accelerated round and
out of the roundabout, changing up to a higher gear when I'd finished the
acceleration.
Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a sudden,
unexpected surge of power. I never mastered the trick of being able to get
just the right amount of accelerator pressure so I accelerated in the
*correct* gear (dropping into 2nd is usually not the right gear!). I either
got too little acceleration in one gear or else too much in the next gear
down.
At traffic lights, and when doing a hill start, I would *always* use the
handbrake to hold the car. And in traffic lights, I'd go into neutral so the
car would not creep forwards: I will not hold a car on the footbrake because
this dazzles the car behind (especially at night) with my brake lights. My
instructor (ex police Class 1 instructor) drummed into me "footbrake for
stopping the car; handbrake for *staying* stopped". If I stop in a queue of
traffic, I go into neutral with handbrake if I anticipate that I will not be
setting off again for more than about 10 seconds.
Oh, and in an automatic I *always* use my right foot for braking, as in a
manual, because my left foot has too much muscle-memory of big clutch
movements rather than small, precise footbrake/accelerator movements. The
only exception is for manoeuvring inch-by-inch, when accelerator alone
doesn't give enough control (the car tends to move in surges) and where in a
manual I'd keep constant engine speed (maybe foot-off idling) and control
the speed by letting the clutch up to the bite point and then lowering it
again once the car is moving.
Even in out manual Honda CRV which has hill-start assist, I do not use this
feature because I do not trust it: I've had the car roll backwards a foot or
so, so I always use the handbrake - that's that it's there for.
I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear but the gearbox took the hassle out of
*how* the gearchange was achieved, giving a smoother up- or down- change. I
wonder how good DSGs are at doing block-changes - eg brake into a hazard
while remaining in 6th, and then change directly into the correct gear for
accelerating out of it, without the need to change sequentially down through
the gears (like I was taught for my normal test in 1980, before that test
adopted the IAM technique of block changes as I did for my 1990 IAM test).
My ideal car would be a DSG with a manual clutch pedal that was only used
when setting off from rest, and where an automatic clutch or torque
converter can engage a bit jerkily.
Just get an EV and all these daft problems go away. ;-)

A nice ICE automatic can be very good and whilst I liked by VW DSG box, in
terms of refinement, my Jag XF box was much better. It seems it’s hard to
beat ample power and a good “slushbox”.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
NY
2021-06-07 12:39:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim+
A nice ICE automatic can be very good and whilst I liked by VW DSG box, in
terms of refinement, my Jag XF box was much better. It seems it’s hard to
beat ample power and a good “slushbox”.
It was the "slush" (torque converter) aspect of automatics that I found
hardest to adjust to: as you gradually increase the engine speed, the torque
converter initially tends to "change down" slightly, so small increases of
engine power don't result in increases in road speed. The DAF/Volvo
variomatic transmission was even worse for this: you'd hear the engine revs
increase dramatically but the car wouldn't increase in speed because the
belts moved to a lower ratio, and only when the ratio was correct would it
stop doing this and you'd get a fixed ratio and so an increase in road
speed.

I like a car that has a fixed ratio between engine and road (until you
change the ratio - and if you do it manually, you are *prepared* for it and
sub-consciously adjust the engine speed to adapt to it), rather than a vague
wishy-washy relationship between the two.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-06-07 12:53:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article
Post by Tim+
Just get an EV and all these daft problems go away. ;-)
See one maker has said they can improve it by adding a gearbox. ;-)
--
*It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-06-07 12:42:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Automatics tend to change down as I increase the power, so I get a
sudden, unexpected surge of power. I never mastered the trick of being
able to get just the right amount of accelerator pressure so I
accelerated in the *correct* gear (dropping into 2nd is usually not the
right gear!). I either got too little acceleration in one gear or else
too much in the next gear down.
Even with three speed autos, this affect also depended on the torque
characteristics of the engine. As well as how well the box was designed
and 'programmed'. Some makers seemed to spend very little time optimising
things. For example, a nice revvy sporty engine that is great with a well
driven manual is not going to work well with only a 3 or four speed auto.
It also depends on how easily the auto does a part throttle change down.
--
*How can I miss you if you won't go away?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-06-07 12:52:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
I'd be interested to try a DSB (automated manual gearbox) where I could
control *when* the car changed gear but the gearbox took the hassle out
of *how* the gearchange was achieved, giving a smoother up- or down-
change. I wonder how good DSGs are at doing block-changes - eg brake
into a hazard while remaining in 6th, and then change directly into the
correct gear for accelerating out of it, without the need to change
sequentially down through the gears (like I was taught for my normal
test in 1980, before that test adopted the IAM technique of block
changes as I did for my 1990 IAM test).
The 7 speed PDK box on my car will drop as many gears as needed, depending
on how much acceleration you want. In practice, dropping one gear gives
plenty acceleration. Or even the gear it's already in.
Post by NY
My ideal car would be a DSG with a manual clutch pedal that was only
used when setting off from rest, and where an automatic clutch or
torque converter can engage a bit jerkily.
No TC transmission I've ever driven jerks away from rest, unless faulty.

Several of my last cars have had a manual option. This one via steering
wheel buttons, or the gearchange. They tend to be a 5 minute wonder, as
the programming is so good.
--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
NY
2021-06-07 13:53:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
No TC transmission I've ever driven jerks away from rest, unless faulty.
All of the automatic cars that I have driven in the 1980s to early 2000s (my
dad's Citroen GS with C-Matic manual-torque-converter transmission, his Ford
Sierra and Honda Accords, and various Fords and Vauxhalls that I've been
loaned) have exhibited the same behaviour. With the car stationary on level
ground and no brake on (eg just released footbrake) you apply power
gradually and suddenly there is a bit of a lurch as the car starts to move,
akin to letting a manual clutch in a bit too smartly. Most of these were at
least 15 years ago, but the most recent auto that I drove was a Japanese car
(I forget what, not not a Honda) which was probably a few years old when I
drove it a couple of years ago.

It's not normally a problem, except if you are manoeuvring very slowly and
precisely (eg to line up with a towing hitch), which required me to get the
engine going just fast enough to start the car moving and then hit the brake
to control the movement. With a manual clutch it is much easier.

But a modern automatic may well behave very differently. I doubt whether any
automatic that I have driven has had more than the standard 3 gears.

I wasn't particularly a fan of automatics, and then I had to endure the
journey from hell in a Focus that had a duff gearbox which kept changing
down further and further the more I pressed the power: on a motorway I could
have 50 mph in any of the gears, but it took a long time of very gentle
acceleration to get any faster than 50. And once I did, some pillock would
pull out ahead of me, causing me to brake, and then the process would have
to begin again. If I had not just begun a long journey home and wanted to
get back ASAP rather than have to wait for a replacement car to be found and
delivered, I would have run the breakdown number and got them to replace it.

Sadly that experience has rather unfairly coloured my impression of autos.
Tim Streater
2021-06-07 11:57:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
Post by R D S
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.
Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.
I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking? Or do they chew through pads?
And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
The engine stops when I come to rest so a light touch on the brake keeps the
battery from rolling me forward. I don't have any trouble with judging
acceleration. And the left foot should do nothing while driving. Right foot
for loud and soft pedals in all cars, whether manual or auto.
--
I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you can
avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if you can.
There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed whole academic
subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

Roger Scruton
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-06-07 12:56:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
The engine stops when I come to rest so a light touch on the brake keeps
the battery from rolling me forward. I don't have any trouble with
judging acceleration. And the left foot should do nothing while driving.
Right foot for loud and soft pedals in all cars, whether manual or auto.
So you're happy having the brake lights on when stopped in a traffic
queue? I'm not. As it annoys me others doing it.

I've left foot braked for about 50 years on autos. And not had a problem
reverting to a manual. It might be more difficult if you had two identical
cars, but one manual one auto.
--
*We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Burns
2021-06-07 13:12:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
So you're happy having the brake lights on when stopped in a traffic
queue? I'm not. As it annoys me others doing it.
My previous car I ordered without the "hold assist" so after a few
months I retrofitted it (replace single switch with double switch, add
fuse and couple of wires onto spare pins of ABS unit, re-program with
VCDS lead)

This meant when you came to a stop, the parking brake light would come
on as green rather than red by applying the "hand" brake button, you
could then take your foot off the brake and the rear brake lights would
go out.

Current car, now comes as standard with "hold assist" except when the
green parking brake light comes on, and you take your foot off, the rear
brake lights stay on, until you touch the accelerator to set off again,
so the manufacturer *makes* the brake lights stay on when the car is
stopped ... I don't think moving into neutral is enough for them to go
off, I think the "hand" brake has to be applied, or gearbox selected to
"P" to make them go out.
Dave Plowman (News)
2021-06-07 12:36:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R D S
Post by R D S
I've never owned an automatic and never wanted one but I test drove one
yesterday and while i'm not going to be buying that particular one
having driven it i'm wondering if i'd actually prefer an auto.
Got it and loving it. It probably helps that it has a fair bit of grunt
but it's a joy to drive. I'm a convert.
Yup. Most who say they hate autos have never tried a decent modern one.
Post by R D S
I feel i'm always on the brakes though, doesn't seem to slow down nearly
as much as a manual when you come off the gas.
I presume they are clever enough to use the engine/gearbox during
braking? Or do they chew through pads?
Is it a torque converter transmission? They do tend to sort of freewheel a
bit at low revs. Ie, around town where you brake the most. So to save
braking too much you need to come off the power rather earlier (when you
guess you're going to have to stop, or just use the brakes. Pads are cheap
enough. ;-)
Post by R D S
And what do folk tend to do at traffic lights? I'd normally neutral and
handbrake but that's less intuitive in this.
I'm guessing this is why i've been sick of staring at other's brake
lights for years, i've probably been behind autos.
My auto has a near conventional friction clutch - no torque converter. And
if you leave it in drive with the handbrake on, it tries to creep against
it. Which to me, means unnecessary wear. Footbrake on when stopped
disengages the clutch. But of course means the stoplights are on. So I
just plonk mine in park at traffic lights, etc.

With a TC transmission, that creeps too. So for the very best MPG neutral
or park should help. But leaving it in drive, handbrake on, won't cause
any extra wear.
--
*By the time a man is wise enough to watch his step, he's too old to go anywhere.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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