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From The Telegraph.
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Jethro_uk
2022-01-05 14:36:14 UTC
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First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-
brexit-not-historic-failure/

I think the fact a remainer is now Foreign *and* "Brexit" secretary
(thought Brexit was done ?) tells me the direction of travel.

I'm wondering if we can streamline the benefits and stamp our blue
passports with crown glasses ?
Steve Walker
2022-01-05 16:32:46 UTC
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First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.

Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
charles
2022-01-05 17:00:00 UTC
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Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-05 17:06:17 UTC
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Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.

"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."
Fredxx
2022-01-05 18:00:47 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years
from leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.
"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
They can land it, but can they sell it?
It wouldn't be worth £43.6m if it wasn't.
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-05 18:53:09 UTC
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Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years
from leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.
"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
They can land it, but can they sell it?
Brits eat seafood
Post by The Natural Philosopher
-
--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan
Brian
2022-01-05 21:15:50 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years
from leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.
"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
They can land it, but can they sell it?
Brits eat seafood
Not as much as we once did and not the range the French do, for example.

Visit even a small French fishing port and the range of species available
dwarfs what you can find here.

If it doesn’t come in bread crumbs or batter, most people wouldn’t know how
to cook it here.

I’d be delighted to see more fish available in the UK but I doubt it will
happen.
Andrew
2022-01-06 14:55:00 UTC
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Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years
from leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.
"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
They can land it, but can they sell it?
Brits eat seafood
Post by The Natural Philosopher
-
Only cod, plaice and easy stuff. everything else goes to the
continent or air-freighted to China
Tim Streater
2022-01-06 17:57:38 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years
from leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.
"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
They can land it, but can they sell it?
Brits eat seafood
Post by The Natural Philosopher
-
Only cod, plaice and easy stuff. everything else goes to the
continent or air-freighted to China
Anyone know if it's possible get Perch anywhere? When in Geneva we used to eat
Perch filets in restaurants (fish were from the lake). Delish.
--
First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your oppressors. - George Orwell
Mr Ön!on
2022-01-06 20:21:07 UTC
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[...]
Post by Tim Streater
Anyone know if it's possible get Perch anywhere? When in Geneva we
used to eat Perch filets in restaurants (fish were from the lake). Delish.
take a rod to any muddy pond. revolting fish IMHO. tastes of mud and
shit mostly
That's UK Carp. Continental Carp tastes 'different'.
That's total carp.
--
\|/
(((Ï))) Mr Ön!on

When we shake the ketchup bottle
First none comes and then a lot'll.
Chris Hogg
2022-01-05 19:24:42 UTC
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On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 17:56:22 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years
from leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.
"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
They can land it, but can they sell it?
The traditional outlet for unsold fish, by-catch etc was fishmeal
fertiliser. It makes fishermen very angry when these days they
inadvertently catch fish over their quota and have to dump the dead
fish back in the sea rather than being allowed to land it for
fishmeal.
--
Chris
Spike
2022-01-06 09:31:36 UTC
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Post by Chris Hogg
The traditional outlet for unsold fish, by-catch etc was fishmeal
fertiliser. It makes fishermen very angry when these days they
inadvertently catch fish over their quota and have to dump the dead
fish back in the sea rather than being allowed to land it for
fishmeal.
Yes, another lunatic regulation by the EU.
--
Spike
alan_m
2022-01-06 14:08:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Would we have had one if still in the EU? How much did it decline whilst
in the EU?
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Fredxx
2022-01-06 15:41:45 UTC
Reply
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Post by alan_m
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Would we have had one if still in the EU? How much did it decline whilst
in the EU?
It only declined because the fishing industry sold its quotas to foreign
boat owners.
Chris Hogg
2022-01-06 15:52:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by alan_m
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Would we have had one if still in the EU? How much did it decline whilst
in the EU?
It only declined because the fishing industry sold its quotas to foreign
boat owners.
That is true!
--
Chris
Rod Speed
2022-01-06 18:29:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by alan_m
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Would we have had one if still in the EU? How much did it decline whilst
in the EU?
It only declined because the fishing industry sold its quotas to foreign
boat owners.
But that wouldn’t be possible when not in the EU.
Peeler
2022-01-06 19:21:51 UTC
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Permalink
On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 05:29:20 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <***@85.214.115.223>
Tim Streater
2022-01-05 17:32:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the continentals, who
are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true now, in a year's time, or
five, or ten.
--
Lady Astor: "Winston, you are drunk!"
Churchill: "And you, madam, are ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning."
Bob Eager
2022-01-06 00:01:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-
brexit-not-historic-failure/
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Steve Walker
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true
now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Animal
2022-01-06 04:47:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-
brexit-not-historic-failure/
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Steve Walker
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true
now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
Sad but true. We do at least have some chance to change it though. We don't with the EU.
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-06 18:26:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-
brexit-not-historic-failure/
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Steve Walker
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true
now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The poor
continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they like but nothing
changes.
And then there was the article in IIRC the Times, where some British local
councillors were in a group with similar from other European countries. The
Brist asked how much effort the others found dealing with helping their
electorate - ward surgeries etc. Many of the others said "Oh, we're elected on
the List system so we don't have to bother with the public".
The worts case of this I know was oddly from a UKIP councillor who
declared to me

"I am not a public servant, I am a duly elected public official"

I think they managed to boot him out in due course
--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy
Bob Eager
2022-01-06 21:44:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true
now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The poor
continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they like but
nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP, and
the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary changes
are not totally under their control, but...) with the proposed voter ID
laws.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Brian
2022-01-06 23:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true
now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The poor
continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they like but
nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP, and
the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary changes
are not totally under their control, but...) with the proposed voter ID
laws.
How is checking ID ‘gerrymandering’ ? On the contrary it prevents voter
fraud.
Bob Eager
2022-01-06 23:59:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's
true now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The poor
continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they like but
nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP,
and the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary
changes are not totally under their control, but...) with the proposed
voter ID laws.
How is checking ID ‘gerrymandering’ ? On the contrary it prevents voter
fraud.
There is minimal voter fraud. But it tends to be poorer people (not Tory
voters) who don't have the right documents (passport, driving licence).
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Steve Walker
2022-01-07 00:16:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Brian
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's
true now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The poor
continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they like but
nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP,
and the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary
changes are not totally under their control, but...) with the proposed
voter ID laws.
How is checking ID ‘gerrymandering’ ? On the contrary it prevents voter
fraud.
There is minimal voter fraud. But it tends to be poorer people (not Tory
voters) who don't have the right documents (passport, driving licence).
When this was proposed, it was made clear that voter ID would be
provided free of charge by local councils.
Bob Eager
2022-01-07 00:53:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Brian
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's
true now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and
a near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The
poor continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they
like but nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP,
and the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary
changes are not totally under their control, but...) with the
proposed voter ID laws.
How is checking ID ‘gerrymandering’ ? On the contrary it prevents
voter fraud.
There is minimal voter fraud. But it tends to be poorer people (not
Tory voters) who don't have the right documents (passport, driving
licence).
When this was proposed, it was made clear that voter ID would be
provided free of charge by local councils.
When the referendum was proposed, it was going to be advisory.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Tim Streater
2022-01-07 14:37:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Brian
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's
true now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and
a near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The
poor continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they
like but nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP,
and the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary
changes are not totally under their control, but...) with the
proposed voter ID laws.
How is checking ID ‘gerrymandering’ ? On the contrary it prevents
voter fraud.
There is minimal voter fraud. But it tends to be poorer people (not
Tory voters) who don't have the right documents (passport, driving
licence).
When this was proposed, it was made clear that voter ID would be
provided free of charge by local councils.
When the referendum was proposed, it was going to be advisory.
What has that to do with the point at issue, namely voter id?
--
The truth of the matter is that we Scots have always been more divided amongst ourselves than pitted against the English. Scottish history before the Union of Parliaments is a gloomy, violent tale of murders, feuds, and tribal revenge. Only after the Act of Union did Highlanders and Lowlanders, Picts and Celts, begin to recognise one another as fellow citizens.

Tam Dalyell
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-07 13:43:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
There is minimal voter fraud.
There is a huge quantity of voter fraud.

Doncha lurve proofs by assertion.
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx
Tim Streater
2022-01-07 14:36:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true
now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The poor
continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they like but
nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP, and
the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary changes
are not totally under their control, but...)
Not under their control at all. What they've asked for is to redraw the
boundaries to even up the constituency sizes. This is long overdue and before
about 10 years ago, was routinely asked for by the government of the day every
10 years or so and was passed through by Parliament on the nod.

The redrawing is done by the Boundaries Commission and their proposals are
subject to comment and review by any interested party. The BC is a non
political body, and they have a set of guidelines to work to. In the US these
bodies are definitely under poltical control. Where d'ye think the word
"gerrymander" came from?
Post by Bob Eager
with the proposed voter ID laws.
These are also well overdue, with documented cases of abuse. Gosh, having to
prove who you are when voting, eh? I'm sure that's never been done anywhere
else in the world.
--
"... you must remember that if you're trying to propagate a creed of poverty, gentleness and tolerance, you need a very rich, powerful, authoritarian organisation to do it." - Vice-Pope Eric
Andrew
2022-01-07 18:01:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Tim Streater
We've still left an undemocratic structure that may suit the
continentals, who are used to disorder and dictatorships. That's true
now, in a year's time, or five, or ten.
And we have our own undemocratic structure (don't kid yourself) and a
near dictatorship.
But we can vote it out, that's the difference, unlike the EU. The poor
continentals, stuck with their PR systems, can vote all they like but
nothing changes.
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP, and
the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary changes
are not totally under their control, but...)
Not under their control at all. What they've asked for is to redraw the
boundaries to even up the constituency sizes. This is long overdue and before
about 10 years ago, was routinely asked for by the government of the day every
10 years or so and was passed through by Parliament on the nod.
The redrawing is done by the Boundaries Commission and their proposals are
subject to comment and review by any interested party. The BC is a non
political body, and they have a set of guidelines to work to. In the US these
bodies are definitely under poltical control. Where d'ye think the word
"gerrymander" came from?
The changes are overdue because the Limp Dems had been blocking the
changes (all parties have to agree). Now that they can hold their
party conference in a minicab, they no longer have any relevance.

Why should Scotland have so many MP's for so few people ?.
Vir Campestris
2022-01-07 21:59:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP, and
the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary changes
are not totally under their control, but...) with the proposed voter ID
laws.
FTTP? Bob, is that some sort of Freudian slip from a CS lecturer?

Andy
Bob Eager
2022-01-08 07:29:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by Bob Eager
In theory we can vote it out. The system is already broken with FTTP,
and the Tories are attempting to gerrymander the remnants (boundary
changes are not totally under their control, but...) with the proposed
voter ID laws.
FTTP? Bob, is that some sort of Freudian slip from a CS lecturer?
Afraid so. I'm so used to typing it...
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
Harry Bloomfield Esq
2022-01-05 20:01:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is too
early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
+1
Spike
2022-01-06 09:33:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is too
early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
+1
WHS
--
Spike
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
2022-01-06 08:36:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
However blind people with guide dogs are livid with both the EU and the UK
authorities aat making travel with their dogs almost impossible due to the
paperwork needed, whereas we used to only need a dog passport before. It
cannot be rocket science. Seems to me this is malicious or downright
inefficient administration. If it worked before it should work now.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months since
actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it really is
too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years from
leaving and not from the referendum!
bert
2022-01-06 12:27:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Malicious - on both sides of the channel.
Post by Brian Gaff (Sofa)
However blind people with guide dogs are livid with both the EU and the UK
authorities aat making travel with their dogs almost impossible due to the
paperwork needed, whereas we used to only need a dog passport before. It
cannot be rocket science. Seems to me this is malicious or downright
inefficient administration. If it worked before it should work now.
Brian
--
bert
RJH
2022-01-06 05:38:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
And the BBC too (previously very reluctant to show any anti-Brexit stories,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59868823
Headline "Brexit: Did the EU ban crown marks on pint glasses?"
Good to see the BBC slowly return to a semblence of balanced reporting. The
unwokeness was getting tedious.
--
Cheers, Rob
Jethro_uk
2022-01-06 12:00:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-
brexit-not-historic-failure/

I see Spain is reducing VAT on energy.

https://www.vatupdate.com/2021/12/30/extension-temporary-vat-reductions-
for-electricity-supplies-and-covid-19/

I really look forward to leaving the EU so the UK can do the same.
Jethro_uk
2022-01-06 13:27:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
UK is already at 5% so could not reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.

So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-06 13:38:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
UK is already at 5% so could not reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.
So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
There is strong pressure from Tory backbenchers to do that, yes.
So far Billionaire Sunak doesnt see why...
--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell
Jethro_uk
2022-01-06 13:45:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jethro_uk
UK is already at 5% so could not reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.
So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
There is strong pressure from Tory backbenchers to do that, yes.
So far Billionaire Sunak doesnt see why...
So that's a no then.

Just checking.
Richard
2022-01-06 13:52:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jethro_uk
UK is already at 5% so could not reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.
So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
There is strong pressure from Tory backbenchers to do that, yes.
So far Billionaire Sunak doesnt see why...
So that's a no then.
Just checking.
No, just being a tad sad.
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-06 14:11:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jethro_uk
UK is already at 5% so could not reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.
So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
There is strong pressure from Tory backbenchers to do that, yes.
So far Billionaire Sunak doesnt see why...
So that's a no then.
No, that is a 'not at present'

It will be a very hot potato in the coming weeks.
--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-06 18:28:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jethro_uk
UK is already at 5% so could not reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.
So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
There is strong pressure from Tory backbenchers to do that, yes.
So far Billionaire Sunak doesnt see why...
So that's a no then.
Just checking.
Well vote in that nice Mr. Starmer then. Perhspa he'll do it.
No, He wants is to remoan aligned with the EU so we can go back in. So
do the limp dumbs

Oddly the Reform party - the better half of UKIP - is the only one with
half-sane energy policies at the moment
--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy
Andrew
2022-01-06 19:38:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jethro_uk
UK is already at 5% so could not  reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.
So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
There is strong pressure from Tory backbenchers to do that, yes.
So far Billionaire Sunak doesnt see why...
So that's a no then.
Just checking.
Well vote in that nice Mr. Starmer then. Perhspa he'll do it.
No, He wants is to remoan aligned with the EU so we can go back in.  So
do the limp dumbs
Oddly the Reform party - the better half of UKIP  - is the only one with
half-sane energy policies at the moment
ROFL.

Labours ticket to power at the next GE.
Richard
2022-01-07 06:49:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Jethro_uk
UK is already at 5% so could not reduce further without leaving EU.
I see.
So now we are out of the EU we are reducing it to zero then ?
There is strong pressure from Tory backbenchers to do that, yes.
So far Billionaire Sunak doesnt see why...
So that's a no then.
This may help in your quest...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59897048
Andrew
2022-01-06 15:05:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jethro_uk
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-
brexit-not-historic-failure/
I see Spain is reducing VAT on energy.
https://www.vatupdate.com/2021/12/30/extension-temporary-vat-reductions-
for-electricity-supplies-and-covid-19/
I really look forward to leaving the EU so the UK can do the same.
So, Spain is reducing VAT on electricity from 21% (!!) to only 10%
(still double our VAT rate on power), but only until 30/4/2022
alan_m
2022-01-06 14:06:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
It took 40 years for the British public to realise that for the UK the
EU was a failure.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Andrew
2022-01-06 15:11:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by alan_m
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
It took 40 years for the British public to realise that for the UK the
EU was a failure.
Nope. Only since Poland and many other East European countries
joined and Blair decided not to impose any limits on immigration
from these countries (unlike most other EU countries), so about
16 years.

It was the downward effect on wages that this immigration surge
caused that resulted in UKIP (who unwittingly gave Blair another
5 years in power in the 2005 GE when they handed all the marginals
to NuLab. Also, nearly put Corbyn in power in 2017)
Fredxx
2022-01-06 15:44:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
It took 40 years for the British public to realise that for the UK the
EU was a failure.
Nope. Only since Poland and many other East European countries
joined and Blair decided not to impose any limits on immigration
from these countries (unlike most other EU countries), so about
16 years.
It was the downward effect on wages that this immigration surge
caused that resulted in UKIP (who unwittingly gave Blair another
5 years in power in the 2005 GE when they handed all the marginals
to NuLab. Also, nearly put Corbyn in power in 2017)
That was the last straw. There was always been substantial opposition to
the EU. But its always best to keep those floating voters on your side.
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-06 16:29:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andrew
It was the downward effect on wages that this immigration surge
caused that resulted in UKIP (who unwittingly gave Blair another
5 years in power in the 2005 GE when they handed all the marginals
to NuLab. Also, nearly put Corbyn in power in 2017)
That was the last straw. There was always been substantial opposition to
the EU. But its always best to keep those floating voters on your side.
Really have to laugh at you Tories. As if you gave a toss for the worst
paid.

Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
--
*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
alan_m
2022-01-06 18:43:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Andrew
2022-01-06 19:41:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Tim Streater
2022-01-06 21:49:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Or the Rag Trade. And why were these series amusing? Because they struck a
chord. Everyone had at some time or another been fucked over by a trades union
strike, or demarcation dispute, etc etc. Same with hotels - everyone had
stayed at a hotel run by Basil.
--
Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it, and Hell where they already have it.

Ronald Reagan
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-07 15:00:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Andrew
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Or the Rag Trade. And why were these series amusing? Because they struck
a chord. Everyone had at some time or another been fucked over by a
trades union strike, or demarcation dispute, etc etc. Same with hotels -
everyone had stayed at a hotel run by Basil.
Crikey. Now all films and TV are true life.
--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Brian
2022-01-06 23:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Some organisations still are.
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-07 15:01:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Some organisations still are.
But mainly foreign owned these days.
--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Richard
2022-01-07 18:04:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Brian
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Some organisations still are.
But mainly foreign owned these days.
Bit xenophobic that, stating that foreigners are complete idiots.
Rod Speed
2022-01-07 18:34:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Brian
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Some organisations still are.
But mainly foreign owned these days.
Bit xenophobic that, stating that foreigners are complete idiots.
It is much more about the relative value of the currency of the
foreign owners and arguably most of them don’t realise how
bad UK unions can be given theirs aren't so mindlessly bloody
minded, or they have decided that they can render the worst
of the UK unions irrelevant to their operation. Some like Nissan
have proven that they can do that, or at least that they can do
management a hell of a lot better than the previous owners.
Andrew
2022-01-07 18:04:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Brian
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
Some organisations still are.
But mainly foreign owned these days.
Like the NHS, Prison Service, Border and Immigration, ....
charles
2022-01-07 09:35:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
It wasn't a documentary
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-07 15:04:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
It wasn't a documentary
And, when that film was made, there were lots of UK companies making goods
of all sorts here.

Where are they now? Despite the 'power' of the unions being all but
abolished 30 years ago.
--
*I stayed up all night to see where the sun went. Then it dawned on me.*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andrew
2022-01-07 18:06:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Andrew
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
Did anyone watch "I'm alright Jack" with Peter Sellers. On last
night on Freeview 81.It's hard to believe that UK businesses were
run by complete idiots and unelected shop stewards.
It wasn't a documentary
I encountered more than one 'Peter Sellers' type as portrayed
in "I'm all right Jack" during my tenure in the NHS in the
1970's. His mentality and way of speaking was disturbingly
accurate.
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-07 14:50:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by alan_m
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man.
Only is there is no cheaper competition from abroad.
You think immigrants would be happy to be paid less than others doing the
same job? For a few weeks, maybe.
--
*You're never too old to learn something stupid.
Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Tim Streater
2022-01-06 18:48:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andrew
It was the downward effect on wages that this immigration surge
caused that resulted in UKIP (who unwittingly gave Blair another
5 years in power in the 2005 GE when they handed all the marginals
to NuLab. Also, nearly put Corbyn in power in 2017)
That was the last straw. There was always been substantial opposition to
the EU. But its always best to keep those floating voters on your side.
Really have to laugh at you Tories. As if you gave a toss for the worst
paid.
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to improve
productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more and you beat
the competition.

[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
--
First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your oppressors. - George Orwell
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-07 14:54:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
--
*Dance like nobody's watching.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Fredxx
2022-01-07 15:30:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best productivity.

If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
Historically from the most unionised companies. Like hanging on to
guards on trains who, with technology, are now superfluous.
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-07 15:41:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
How do you explain our poor productivity, then, given our low wages
compared to many other countries?
Post by Fredxx
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
Historically from the most unionised companies. Like hanging on to
guards on trains who, with technology, are now superfluous.
Train users, ie the passengers, seem to prefer having a guard.

Lots and lots and lots of things are now superfluous due to technology.
Yet we hang on to those.
--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Fredxx
2022-01-07 16:37:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
How do you explain our poor productivity, then, given our low wages
compared to many other countries?
You've been explained why our productivity is so poor. Or even how it
could be improved. If you can't understand why after re-reading my post
then I can understand why you still support unionisation and collective
bargaining.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
Historically from the most unionised companies. Like hanging on to
guards on trains who, with technology, are now superfluous.
Train users, ie the passengers, seem to prefer having a guard.
Lots and lots and lots of things are now superfluous due to technology.
Yet we hang on to those.
Collecting bargaining is doing its best to hang onto these ancient
practices.
Rod Speed
2022-01-07 17:01:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its
effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
How do you explain our poor productivity, then, given our low wages
compared to many other countries?
You've been explained why our productivity is so poor. Or even how it
could be improved. If you can't understand why after re-reading my post
then I can understand why you still support unionisation and collective
bargaining.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
Historically from the most unionised companies. Like hanging on to
guards on trains who, with technology, are now superfluous.
Train users, ie the passengers, seem to prefer having a guard.
Lots and lots and lots of things are now superfluous due to technology.
Yet we hang on to those.
Collecting bargaining is doing its best to hang onto these ancient
practices.
And doesn’t mostly allow driverless trains. That would be a dramatic
improvement in productivity, prevented by fuckwit unions.
Peeler
2022-01-07 18:15:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 04:01:34 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
Xeno to senile Rodent:
"You're a sad old man Rod, truly sad."
MID: <***@mid.individual.net>
Steve Walker
2022-01-07 21:29:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
How do you explain our poor productivity, then, given our low wages
compared to many other countries?
Post by Fredxx
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
Historically from the most unionised companies. Like hanging on to
guards on trains who, with technology, are now superfluous.
Train users, ie the passengers, seem to prefer having a guard.
But does they realise what a guard does and what is proposed or do they
just think that the companies want to get rid of the only person they
can ask for help on the train? The guard is in charge of and responsible
for the train, not the driver. As far as I am aware, the proposals are
to transfer the responsibility for the train to the driver and replace
the guard with someone to check tickets, look out for trouble and
generally take care of the passengers. Basically a transfer of the
responsibilities of a guard and replacement with a cheaper "conductor".
No real change as far as passengers are concerned. Going to one man
operation is a different matter.
Steve Walker
2022-01-07 22:26:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its
effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while?  Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
How do you explain our poor productivity, then, given our low wages
compared to many other countries?
Post by Fredxx
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
Historically from the most unionised companies. Like hanging on to
guards on trains who, with technology, are now superfluous.
Train users, ie the passengers, seem to prefer having a guard.
But does they realise what a guard does and what is proposed or do they
"do" not "does".
Post by Steve Walker
just think that the companies want to get rid of the only person they
can ask for help on the train? The guard is in charge of and responsible
for the train, not the driver. As far as I am aware, the proposals are
to transfer the responsibility for the train to the driver and replace
the guard with someone to check tickets, look out for trouble and
generally take care of the passengers. Basically a transfer of the
responsibilities of a guard and replacement with a cheaper "conductor".
No real change as far as passengers are concerned. Going to one man
operation is a different matter.
charles
2022-01-08 10:47:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the
working man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its
effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers
more and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in
the last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best productivity.
How do you explain our poor productivity, then, given our low wages
compared to many other countries?
Post by Fredxx
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by
the "working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid
employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
Historically from the most unionised companies. Like hanging on to
guards on trains who, with technology, are now superfluous.
Train users, ie the passengers, seem to prefer having a guard.
But does they realise what a guard does and what is proposed or do they
just think that the companies want to get rid of the only person they
can ask for help on the train? The guard is in charge of and responsible
for the train, not the driver. As far as I am aware, the proposals are
to transfer the responsibility for the train to the driver and replace
the guard with someone to check tickets, look out for trouble and
generally take care of the passengers. Basically a transfer of the
responsibilities of a guard and replacement with a cheaper "conductor".
No real change as far as passengers are concerned. Going to one man
operation is a different matter.
A great many years ago, I was a 'Christmas postie' at a mainline Railway
station. Job was to collect mail bags from the sorting office (next to the
station) and get them to the right train. Then pass the responibility to
the guard. He guarded all the freight carried on the passenger train - in
the Guard's van.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Fredxx
2022-01-07 18:18:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while?  Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
.. by increasing unemployment. Have you seen the percentage of
youth unemployment in France, Spain and a few other continental
countries ?
I am very aware of that, and that is one reason why productivity is
not a useful figure of merit, but used by fanatical remainers who
reminisce of life in the EU.
The Natural Philosopher
2022-01-07 20:04:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its
effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while?  Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to
raise wages, then automation will pay for itself.
.. by increasing unemployment. Have you seen the percentage of
youth unemployment in France, Spain and a few other continental
countries ?
 I am very aware of that, and that is one reason why productivity is
not a useful figure of merit, but used by fanatical remainers who
reminisce of life in the EU.
And who cream themselves over 'green jobs' which lower the productivity
of 'renewable' energy to about one tenth,

No one - especially not labour as they are thicker than mince - has
grasped that job creation is actually these days the opposite of wealth
creation.

it would be better to let robots do all the work and pay people to stay
at home and watch reality TV
--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
..I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)
%
2022-01-07 18:37:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Productivity is down to cost of labour. In France labour is expensive
through the employer related taxes. Hence they have the best
productivity.
If you want the UK to have good productivity, the first thing is to raise
wages, then automation will pay for itself.
.. by increasing unemployment. Have you seen the percentage of
youth unemployment in France, Spain and a few other continental
countries ?
But not in others that pay well like Germany, Scandinavia etc.
Peeler
2022-01-07 19:54:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 05:37:28 +1100, %, better known as cantankerous trolling
senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Tim Streater
2022-01-07 16:13:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Cheap labour imported from other EU countries. Not much incentive there for
managements to improve the work force.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
No, it's you who thinks that. Otherwise why do you use an expression like "the
working man" which implies that you think there must be "the non-working man".
I'm curious as to who you think falls into the latter category.
--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in someone else's pocket.
Andrew
2022-01-07 18:08:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while? Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
At least 20% of the NHS workforce !! (who aren't frontline
workers).
Fredxx
2022-01-07 18:12:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Tim Streater
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
No, the best way to improve the wages of the working man [1] is to
improve productivity in your company. Then you can pay your workers more
and you beat the competition.
Who do you blame for the very poor improvements in productivity in the
last while?  Can't be unions, surely, since they are effectively
powerless?
Post by Tim Streater
[1] It would be useful if Our Dave were to define what he meant by the
"working man", and why that doesn't include everybody in paid employment.
I take it then you think there are lots in paid employment who don't
actually work?
At least 20% of the NHS workforce !! (who aren't frontline
workers).
So you think this 20% don't work, and superfluous to the running of the NHS?

My experience of government cuts in the non-frontline areas is that
everything gets less efficient and where frontline workers work on
non-frontline matters. But hey.
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-08 12:03:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andrew
At least 20% of the NHS workforce !! (who aren't frontline
workers).
So you think this 20% don't work, and superfluous to the running of the NHS?
My experience of government cuts in the non-frontline areas is that
everything gets less efficient and where frontline workers work on
non-frontline matters. But hey.
I've had quite a bit of experience of the NHS over the last few years.
Generally extremely positive. But the one thing that could be improved is
the admin side. I've had the letter confirming and appointment - and
giving the details of where to go - arriving after the appointment.

Things like that suggest it isn't admin top heavy. But the reverse.
--
*Always borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Steve Walker
2022-01-08 17:04:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andrew
At least 20% of the NHS workforce !! (who aren't frontline
workers).
So you think this 20% don't work, and superfluous to the running of the NHS?
My experience of government cuts in the non-frontline areas is that
everything gets less efficient and where frontline workers work on
non-frontline matters. But hey.
I've had quite a bit of experience of the NHS over the last few years.
Generally extremely positive. But the one thing that could be improved is
the admin side. I've had the letter confirming and appointment - and
giving the details of where to go - arriving after the appointment.
I've had a day's pay lost due to attending an appointment for a test -
only to find that the appointment was for the test results, but they
hadn't organised the test!

I've had another day's lost pay due to organising a day off and paying
for one of our sons to go into a day long music class, to allow us to
get urgent results of an MRI brain scan on our eldest son, only to
receive a phone call 15 minutes before the appointment to tell us that
they should have called us last week, but all the week's clinics were
cancelled as the consultant had decided to take the day off.

I've had booking Wednesday off work to take my son to an appointment
(that he'd been waiting 8 months for), only to receive a cancellation
letter on Saturday, so I decided to work Wednesday and take half of
Monday off, as I had the freedom to juggle my hours around. I phoned on
Tuesday to see when a new appointment might be available, only to be
told that his Wednesday appointment had not been cancelled and if we
missed it, we would have to wait many more months to get one. So half a
day's pay lost as I no longer had enough availability to juggle my hours
enough. When I got there, they told me that the letters were generated
automatically by the computer when the appointments were cancelled and
so they had no idea how that letter could have been generated while the
appointment still existed!

I've had what should have been a case of dropping my wife off, waiting
for 15 minutes and taking her home become a 3 hour wait (if I'd known I
could have gone home and worked in between, as we only live 5 minutes
away), because the doctor that was due to give her injections in her
joints had rushed out to pick his sick daughter up from school, but
hadn't bothered to tell anybody!

I've had having to take our children to my parents at 6 am to get my
wife to a 6:45 am appointment for an operation, waiting with her for
hours, giving up and me going home, but being on edge waiting for a call
back to collect her, only for them to take her to theatre at 5:30 pm!!!!

I've had taking my sister for treatment, 30 people being given the same
appointment time, us being the first there and her being the last seen,
as they put the notes in the tray as patients arrived and then worked
down from the top.

I've had multiple times of taking my wife to the eye hospital for
appointments between 8:30 am and 10:15 am. Not once was she seen before
12 pm, on one occasion it was 4:15 pm - an the clinic officially closed
at 1:30 pm!

The organisation is atrocious. The treatment is usually good - although
one consultant tried multiple times to get my wife to consent to
clearing up her symptoms (dizziness and peripheral vision problems), by
blinding her in her left eye. The problem was eventually resolved when a
Neuro-opthamologist, seeing her for the very first time (after 2-1/2
years of being seen by other people), immediately recognised the problem
and put her on medication for 3 months.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Things like that suggest it isn't admin top heavy. But the reverse.
My wife worked in the NHS and there was sufficient admin, however there
were far too many, totally useless, managers.

She used to work as a Community Psychiatric Nurse. The team consisted of
4 full-timers and 1 part-timer (her), plus a manager. A senior manager
visited the office twice and found no-one there. On further
investigation, she found that my wife was seeing more patients in 18
hours than any of the others were in 37. It turned out 3 of the 4
full-timers were saying that they were working in clinics at the
hospital and going shopping for the day, while the 4th was struggling
mentally, having just been diagnosed HIV positive.

Of the 3, one was made to pay back 10K and moved back to the team she'd
been borrowed from and 2 moved to other trusts before any action could
be taken. The 4th, the only one deserving any sympathy, was sacked.
Their manager was moved to another department (a promotion) and my wife
was forced to spend another 18 months fighting to get her proper pay
grade, as she'd been wrongly banded lower than all the full-timers and
the (new) manager ignored the discussions that had taken place 12 months
before!

Later, in another position, my wife experienced a senior manager
receiving praise and an award for managing to find a new base for three
teams, allowing the three existing building leases to expire. The new
building was (and did) house 90 staff, 70 of which were Community staff
and so needed to have their cars with them - the building had 6 parking
spaces and all the surrounding area was no parking or 30 minute parking,
yet they needed to attend the 45 minute morning meeting and spend hours
of each day writing up patient's notes in the office.

They did eventually procure some extra parking some distance away, but
staff would not use it, as three of the (predominantly female) staff
were accosted while walking to or from there in the dark - one actually
being injured in fighting the attacker off.
Rod Speed
2022-01-08 17:50:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andrew
At least 20% of the NHS workforce !! (who aren't frontline
workers).
So you think this 20% don't work, and superfluous to the running of the NHS?
My experience of government cuts in the non-frontline areas is that
everything gets less efficient and where frontline workers work on
non-frontline matters. But hey.
I've had quite a bit of experience of the NHS over the last few years.
Generally extremely positive. But the one thing that could be improved is
the admin side. I've had the letter confirming and appointment - and
giving the details of where to go - arriving after the appointment.
Things like that suggest it isn't admin top heavy. But the reverse.
More likely incompetence.
Peeler
2022-01-08 19:36:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Jan 2022 04:50:00 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Vir Campestris
2022-01-09 21:58:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I've had quite a bit of experience of the NHS over the last few years.
Generally extremely positive. But the one thing that could be improved is
the admin side. I've had the letter confirming and appointment - and
giving the details of where to go - arriving after the appointment.
Things like that suggest it isn't admin top heavy. But the reverse.
I've had less experience of the system than Steve, but I recall taking
my son out of school, my wife and I both taking a day off work, and
going to hospital to see a consultant for a pre-treatment assessment.

I expected a wait. The NHS isn't notorious for efficiency, after all.

After an hour I started asking questions.

It took another hour to establish that (a) the consultant we were
visiting wasn't there that day and (b) for such a minor condition the
meeting wasn't necessary anyway.

Andy
Tim Streater
2022-01-10 15:02:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 09 Jan 2022 at 21:58:15 GMT, Vir Campestris
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
I've had quite a bit of experience of the NHS over the last few years.
Generally extremely positive. But the one thing that could be improved is
the admin side. I've had the letter confirming and appointment - and
giving the details of where to go - arriving after the appointment.
Things like that suggest it isn't admin top heavy. But the reverse.
I've had less experience of the system than Steve, but I recall taking
my son out of school, my wife and I both taking a day off work, and
going to hospital to see a consultant for a pre-treatment assessment.
I expected a wait. The NHS isn't notorious for efficiency, after all.
After an hour I started asking questions.
It took another hour to establish that (a) the consultant we were
visiting wasn't there that day and (b) for such a minor condition the
meeting wasn't necessary anyway.
It's a nationalised industry with, therefore, a captive clientele. So what did
you expect.
--
"... you must remember that if you're trying to propagate a creed of poverty, gentleness and tolerance, you need a very rich, powerful, authoritarian organisation to do it." - Vice-Pope Eric
Fredxx
2022-01-06 18:49:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Andrew
It was the downward effect on wages that this immigration surge
caused that resulted in UKIP (who unwittingly gave Blair another
5 years in power in the 2005 GE when they handed all the marginals
to NuLab. Also, nearly put Corbyn in power in 2017)
That was the last straw. There was always been substantial opposition to
the EU. But its always best to keep those floating voters on your side.
Really have to laugh at you Tories. As if you gave a toss for the worst
paid.
What is it with you fanatical remainers. I haven't voted Tory for many,
many years.

So you now think you know how Brexiters vote now too.

And unlike you, yes I do give a toss. You would prefer wages were set at
Eastern European rates. Do you hate UK workers that much?
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Collective bargaining is the best way to raise the wages of the working
man. Why do you think Thatcher was so keen to limit its effectiveness?
Collective bargaining is still going strong, normally for those with
some token qualification such as Law Society and some other groups come
to mind.

In many areas the threat of collective bargaining destroys jobs through
fear of shutting processes down. Not so long ago some UK Euro-tunnel
drivers were laughing at having to drive trains while their foreign
counterparts were striking.

It pushed an awful lot of manufacturing abroad. It is currently costing
commuters a fortune where unions want to live in the olden days with
guards still waving flags.

Lets set wages by supply and demand. Better that than 3 day weeks.
Dave Plowman (News)
2022-01-07 14:57:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Really have to laugh at you Tories. As if you gave a toss for the worst
paid.
What is it with you fanatical remainers. I haven't voted Tory for many,
many years.
So just think like the stereotypical one.
Post by Fredxx
So you now think you know how Brexiters vote now too.
And unlike you, yes I do give a toss. You would prefer wages were set at
Eastern European rates.
Trying to think how 'Eastern European' rates would work in the UK, given
the different costs of living?
Post by Fredxx
Do you hate UK workers that much?
--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Fredxx
2022-01-07 15:30:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Really have to laugh at you Tories. As if you gave a toss for the worst
paid.
What is it with you fanatical remainers. I haven't voted Tory for many,
many years.
So just think like the stereotypical one.
Post by Fredxx
So you now think you know how Brexiters vote now too.
And unlike you, yes I do give a toss. You would prefer wages were set at
Eastern European rates.
Trying to think how 'Eastern European' rates would work in the UK, given
the different costs of living?
Quite, that is what was happening. Where there was a worker in the UK on
basic minimum wage sending their family their wages back in Eastern Europe.
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Fredxx
Do you hate UK workers that much?
Obviously.
Tim Streater
2022-01-06 21:50:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tim Streater
Post by Andrew
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by charles
Post by Steve Walker
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brexit-not-historic-failure/
Considering the massive change, that there has only been 12 months
since actual Brexit and it all being in the midst of a pandemic, it
really is too early top judge.
Five years is possibly the right time to judge, but that's 5 years
from leaving and not from the referendum!
Five years down the line, we might not have a fishing industry
Or not.
"Brexit fishing victory as England's most lucrative port lands record
£43.6m of seafood"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1545109/brexit-news-fishing-eu-brixham-fish-market-record
They can land it, but can they sell it?
Brits eat seafood
Post by The Natural Philosopher
-
Only cod, plaice and easy stuff. everything else goes to the
continent or air-freighted to China
Anyone know if it's possible get Perch anywhere? When in Geneva we used to eat
Perch filets in restaurants (fish were from the lake). Delish.
take a rod to any muddy pond. revolting fish IMHO. tastes of mud and
shit mostly
Not IME.
perhaps you had sea perch
No, I told you: I had lake perch. From Lake Geneva.
--
Britain sitting behind the protectionist wall of the Customs Union is doing absolutely nothing for the oppressed coffee bean growers of the developing world. How ironic then that the cappuccino-swilling hordes of Hove voted in large numbers to keep some of the world's poorest people and traders locked out of our markets.

Tom Bewick - Labour councillor in Brighton and Hove
Spike
2022-01-08 10:26:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
First the Express, now the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/04/time-running-prove-brex
it-not-historic-failure/
<https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/03/sunderland-is-coming-up
-shining-despite-brexit-and-the-pandemic>
Note that this article says "despite" - not "because of".
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/22/brexit-has-given-compe
titive-edge-on-car-battery-tariffs-says-nissan-chief>
"Gupta said the Brexit deal had turned out to be positive for the
carmaker. The advantage comes because it is not reliant on batteries
imported from east Asia, unlike many of its rivals. From 2027 all
British and European carmakers will have to source batteries from either
the UK or EU, as agreed in the Brexit deal, or face tariffs on their
exports."
If we had remained in the EU, why would UK and EU carmakers have had to
rely on batteries from East Asia? Nissan’s chief operating officer
usually puts a positive spin on Brexit - but after Nissan receiving
£100 million pounds, he would, wouldn't he!
You appear to be claiming that the voters of Sunderland, who created the
phenomenon dubbed by the BBC on Referendum night as 'the Sunderland
Effect', haven't got what they voted for, which was something - anything
- other than the EU. Looks like they played their cards well.
--
Spike
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