Transporting water by sea

[Spike]

QUOTE
Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of neglecting
its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to choose between
unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens supplies. Causing
permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more water would be a
further foolish concession to the short-termism that got us into this mess.

“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job with
the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and plan
to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE

<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>

Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, on
the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured wood
chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that
of doing a better job?

[Jeff Gaines]

Post by Spike
Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, on
the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured wood
chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that
of doing a better job?

No, but I suspect (with HS2 in mind) that the cost of a big bore pipe from
Windermere to Surrey would be ginormous and unlikely ever to happen.

[Jethro_uk]

QUOTE Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of
neglecting its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to
choose between unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens
supplies. Causing permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more
water would be a further foolish concession to the short-termism that
got us into this mess.
“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job
with the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the
UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and
plan to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-

considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>

Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr,
on the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured
wood chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative
to that of doing a better job?

Surely they could tow a fucking iceberg ?

[N_Cook]

Post by Spike

QUOTE Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of
neglecting its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to
choose between unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens
supplies. Causing permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more
water would be a further foolish concession to the short-termism that
got us into this mess.
“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job
with the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the
UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and
plan to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-

considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>

Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr,
on the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured
wood chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative
to that of doing a better job?

Surely they could tow a fucking iceberg ?

Disproven in the 1960s, impossible to tow as totally irregular
underwater shape gives ever changing incomputible sidethrusts wrt to
wind and currents.
I'm involved with a proposal for SW to transport "solids" from local
sewage works to the regional further processing site, by water.
Always used to use a shit barge towed by tug but sea level rise means
they can no longer shoot the bridges. Proposal is to use long Dracon
barge "bladders" with sponsons, towed by tug. I doubt it will come to
pass though.
Each old style shit barge load is currently replaced by 80 large lorry
loads of stench.

[John Armstrong]

I'm involved with  a proposal for SW to transport "solids" from local
sewage works to the regional further processing site, by water.
Always used to use a shit barge towed by tug but sea level rise means
they can no longer shoot the bridges. Proposal is to use long Dracon
barge "bladders" with sponsons, towed by tug. I doubt it will come to
pass though.
Each old style shit barge load is currently replaced by 80 large lorry
loads of stench.

Glasgow did this for years. The sludge was dumped off Arran. The daily
trips down the Clyde were used to give OAPs a cruise.

https://ss-shieldhall.co.uk/the-ship/history-of-the-glasgow-sludge-fleet/

[N_Cook]

Post by John Armstrong

Post by N_Cook
I'm involved with a proposal for SW to transport "solids" from local
sewage works to the regional further processing site, by water.
Always used to use a shit barge towed by tug but sea level rise means
they can no longer shoot the bridges. Proposal is to use long Dracon
barge "bladders" with sponsons, towed by tug. I doubt it will come to
pass though.
Each old style shit barge load is currently replaced by 80 large lorry
loads of stench.

Glasgow did this for years. The sludge was dumped off Arran. The daily
trips down the Clyde were used to give OAPs a cruise.
https://ss-shieldhall.co.uk/the-ship/history-of-the-glasgow-sludge-fleet/

Or the Shithaul as its called locally, now retired to Southampton

[Mike Humphrey]

Post by John Armstrong
Glasgow did this for years. The sludge was dumped off Arran. The daily
trips down the Clyde were used to give OAPs a cruise.
https://ss-shieldhall.co.uk/the-ship/history-of-the-glasgow-sludge-

fleet/

Edinburgh too - they weren't shy about it, the ship used was called
"Gardyloo"!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Gardyloo


Mike

[Chris Hogg]

Post by N_Cook

Post by Jethro_uk
Surely they could tow a fucking iceberg ?

Disproven in the 1960s, impossible to tow as totally irregular
underwater shape gives ever changing incomputible sidethrusts wrt to
wind and currents.

https://tinyurl.com/5xead66a

[N_Cook]

Mmaybe on www ,BBC South news today had a non technical piece about
shipping glacial meltwater to south England.
I doubt it would use Dracone barges unless they could guarantee the
North sea was close to calm

[The Natural Philosopher]

QUOTE

Why on earth are you listening to anything Greenpeace's tame shill says?

[Spike]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

QUOTE

Why on earth are you listening to anything Greenpeace's tame shill says?

I’m not! I stumbled across an article with the above in it, and wondered if
it might be a case of double standards by Greenpeace. Someone might know
their thoughts on the topic, but ICBA to spend time on it.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Spike

Post by The Natural Philosopher

QUOTE

Why on earth are you listening to anything Greenpeace's tame shill says?

I’m not! I stumbled across an article with the above in it, and wondered if
it might be a case of double standards by Greenpeace. Someone might know
their thoughts on the topic, but ICBA to spend time on it.

Drax fully complied with the edicts of MilliBrains Climate Change Act
and converted all their coal to wood.

MilliBrains advisors were FOE, GreenPeace and Renewable UK

Greenpeace is just another Oil and gas shill probably fully financed by
Russia to ensure that energy prices and demand for balancing gas remain
high.

None of it is real. It's all virtue signalling and profiteering

[Jim the Geordie]

Post by Spike
QUOTE
Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of neglecting
its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to choose between
unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens supplies. Causing
permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more water would be a
further foolish concession to the short-termism that got us into this mess.
“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job with
the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and plan
to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>
Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, on
the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured wood
chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that
of doing a better job?

Agreed. I live on Tyneside and see bulkers having taken up to 14 days to
come from the US, then lying offshore, sometimes a similar period,
before coming into South Shields to unload on to trains which, of
course, use fuel. They then take the sawdust pellets to Drax or
Lynemouth, where I am informed the load of pellets are burned before the
train has left the power station.
As a physicist, the energy used vs energy generated doesn't seem to
compute IMO and I haven't included the energy used to cut down,
'pelletise' the wood and transport it to the ships in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Spike

Post by The Natural Philosopher

QUOTE

Why on earth are you listening to anything Greenpeace's tame shill says?

I’m not! I stumbled across an article with the above in it, and wondered if
it might be a case of double standards by Greenpeace. Someone might know
their thoughts on the topic, but ICBA to spend time on it.

Drax fully complied with the edicts of MilliBrains Climate Change Act
and converted all their coal to wood.
MilliBrains advisors were FOE, GreenPeace and Renewable UK
Greenpeace is just another Oil and gas shill probably fully financed by
Russia to ensure that energy prices and demand for balancing gas remain
high.
None of it is real. It's all virtue signalling and profiteering

Financed by Russia.... LOL!!
Now then stick your lots bullshit such as "GB" goldberg news.
Again this shows what a fucking loser you really are, a pathetic little man shaking his
puny fist at the outside world. Your a pedo and love to support
this filty act.
But wait, as you stated before, you are happy to hand over the UK Christian identity
to your genetic scum lot. As proven a few weeks ago by someone who said that you want to
turn the UK into a cohenberg.
"GB" or "talk TV" will be raided and all the lot who are there and their families will be executed and
dead bodies on the street. So we can piss and shit on them.
Why do you think starmar went home to ukraine to meet his cousin, that parasite zelensky who has bought £billion of properties.
While pensioner winter fuel allowance is cut.
jenrick, that piece of genetic vermin was barking in his lots (daily mail) "British values".
He is not a British.
Easy was for world peace, deport ALL who invaded for the past few centuries from e Europe back home to the trilliont cousin.
Then all changes and that part of the planet will be carpet nuked. That includes you sayanim.

[Chris Hogg]

QUOTE
Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of neglecting
its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to choose between
unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens supplies. Causing
permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more water would be a
further foolish concession to the short-termism that got us into this mess.
“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job with
the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and plan
to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>
Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, on
the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured wood
chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that
of doing a better job?

South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Spike
QUOTE
Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of neglecting
its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to choose between
unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens supplies. Causing
permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more water would be a
further foolish concession to the short-termism that got us into this mess.
“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job with
the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and plan
to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>
Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, on
the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured wood
chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that
of doing a better job?

South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond

Nuclear power stations for example

[Chris Hogg]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

[Tim Streater]

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

Hmmm. Better not tell 'em they're sitting right next to Dartmoor, then.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a
desalination plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure
how that's going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon
emissions. The energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient
will it be? There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea
salt(2); perhaps they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl (2)
https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

Hmmm. Better not tell 'em they're sitting right next to Dartmoor, then.

Logic and intelligence are rarely features of local protests.

[Tim Streater]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a
desalination plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure
how that's going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon
emissions. The energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient
will it be? There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea
salt(2); perhaps they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl (2)
https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

Hmmm. Better not tell 'em they're sitting right next to Dartmoor, then.

Logic and intelligence are rarely features of local protests.

In fact, looking it up, seems the whole damn county is one of the
radioactivity hotspots of the whole country.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a
desalination plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure
how that's going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon
emissions. The energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient
will it be? There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea
salt(2); perhaps they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl (2)
https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

Hmmm. Better not tell 'em they're sitting right next to Dartmoor, then.

Logic and intelligence are rarely features of local protests.

In fact, looking it up, seems the whole damn county is one of the
radioactivity hotspots of the whole country

And Cornwall as well. Full of natural uranium in the granite

[Chris Hogg]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2024 08:12:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher
And Cornwall as well. Full of natural uranium in the granite

There were several mines in Cornwall that actually produced uranium,
mostly in the form of pitchblende. Wheal Trenwith, on the (then)
outskirts of St. Ives, produced 694 tons between 1911 and 1917 (in the
latter part of the last century, long after the mine had closed, Wheal
Trenwith supplied part of the town water supply!). Wheal Providence in
Carbis Bay produced about 3 tons in 1846 (in those days, long before
its radioactive properties were known, pitchblende was used as a
greenish-yellow pigment in glass; it fluoresces nicely under UV
light. Lots of uranium glass available on eBay
https://tinyurl.com/4evxvrps ). In these mines the pitchblende was a
very minor product compared to the tin and copper ores that they
produced. South Terras mine, a small mine near St. Austell, between
1873 and 1910, 736 tons of pitchblende were produced. Lesser amounts
were produced from other mines in Cornwall, but the total was probably
less than 2000 tons.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

Sadly Cornwall is already so naturally radioactive that even without
switching it on, any nuclear plants would contravene regulatory limits
for workers in the nuclear industry.

So wind farms have all the disadvantages on nuclear power and none of
the advantages

[Jim the Geordie]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

Sadly Cornwall is already so naturally radioactive that even without
switching it on, any nuclear plants would contravene regulatory limits
for workers in the nuclear industry.
So wind farms have all the disadvantages on nuclear power and none of
the advantages

A few years ago when testing for Radon gas in public buildings, they
were said to have found that the highest reading in Cornwall was in the
basement of the Health Centre in Tavistock(?).
You are advised to have cellars and underfloors checked and fitted with
extractors if needed. Dunno who pays.
I have no knowledge of granite elsewhere, but Radon gas is emitted as
part of Granite decay,

[Jim the Geordie]

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive,
protested against it vigorously, and the plans were withdrawn.

Having lived down there, I am not surprised, They still wave at
aeroplanes. :)

[SteveW]

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive

In Cornwall? Where large parts of the ground are naturally radioactive!

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by SteveW

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:23:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Chris Hogg
South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

Desalination is a very viable option of you have a large source of
surplus low grade heat and a bit of nearby sea you don't mind making
into a tropical fishpond
Nuclear power stations for example

Except that there isn't one in mid-Cornwall. The nearest is Hinkley
Point. IIRC there were plans for one on the table some thirty years
ago, but the locals were terrified of anything vaguely radioactive

In Cornwall? Where large parts of the ground are naturally radioactive!

That was the real reason it was shelved. They couldn't meet the
radiation exposure standards for nucler workers anywhere on the West
Country granite

[Spike]

Post by Chris Hogg

QUOTE
Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of neglecting
its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to choose between
unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens supplies. Causing
permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more water would be a
further foolish concession to the short-termism that got us into this mess.
“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job with
the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and plan
to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>
Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, on
the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured wood
chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that
of doing a better job?

South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?

Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free energy
from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about (but not seeing)
for the last 25 years.

Post by Chris Hogg
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free energy
from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about (but not seeing)
for the last 25 years.

One of Rolls Royce's putative Small Modular Reactors could do it and
replace every single windmill in Cornwall.

[Pancho]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free energy
from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about (but not seeing)
for the last 25 years.

One of Rolls Royce's putative Small Modular Reactors could do it and
replace every single windmill in Cornwall.

AIUI, in general these small modular reactors are just less efficient
versions of big reactors. We could get the same economy of manufacture
if we committed to a national building scheme of large reactors, like
wot the French did.


More interesting is the molten salt breeder reactors. Like this youtube
promo.

This particular guy might be a bullshitter, but it seems to me ballpark
feasible. A solution not just for the UK but for the world. A better
investment to pour money into startups like this, than fusion etc.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free energy
from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about (but not seeing)
for the last 25 years.

One of Rolls Royce's putative Small Modular Reactors could do it and
replace every single windmill in Cornwall.

AIUI, in general these small modular reactors are just less efficient
versions of big reactors. We could get the same economy of manufacture
if we committed to a national building scheme of large reactors, like
wot the French did.

No. In terms of build time and use of capital they are way more efficient.

Remember the regulations surrounding nuclear power developed after
France built its examples are designed to stop any more being built.

SMR is simply a way make huge swathes of those regulations inapplicable.
e.g. if you don't *need* coolant pumps to keep a SCRAMMed core from
melting down, because its small enough to be cooled by convection alone,
you don't need to make those pumps triply redundant, with a box ticking
sheet of 10,000 pages.

Likewise if you factory assemble under proper quality control, you dont
need onsite type approval at every stage of the build process.

Post by Pancho
More interesting is the molten salt breeder reactors. Like this youtube
promo.
http://youtu.be/HMv5c32XXoE

Fuck interesting. Engineers - real engineers - don't want 'interesting'
- they want boring reliable cheap shit that does the job at a quarter
the cost of 'interesting' shit.
The industry doesn't need 100 Audi Quattros, It needs 1000 Ford
Cortina's with solid rear axles, drum brakes and leaf springs....

Post by Pancho
This particular guy might be a bullshitter, but it seems to me ballpark
feasible. A solution not just for the UK but for the world. A better
investment to pour money into startups like this, than fusion etc.

Salt is definitely able to work, and has a predictable development cost
associated with it, Sadly its about 20 times the cost of adapting say a
Submarine reactor to be mass produced and stuck in serried ranks in
industrial warehouses...

In the case of nuclear power reactors we don't need
new technology - we need new regulations.

[Davey]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 12:30:40 +0100

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Fuck interesting. Engineers - real engineers - don't want
'interesting'
- they want boring reliable cheap shit that does the job at a quarter
the cost of 'interesting' shit.
The industry doesn't need 100 Audi Quattros, It needs 1000 Ford
Cortina's with solid rear axles, drum brakes and leaf springs....

I once worked for the Transport Manager of a large UK company. The
Morris Marina had just been announced (!), and he had been lent one with
a view to the company leasing some for its mobile technicians,
salesmen, etc.

He asked me to ride with him on a test drive on local roads, and he
finished at an empty roundabout, where he gradually increased the speed
until it was hopping madly around the circle, threatening to bounce us
off into the scenery.
He slowed down, and gave his verdict:
"It drives terribly, we'll take 30 of them".

[Spike]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free energy
from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about (but not seeing)
for the last 25 years.

One of Rolls Royce's putative Small Modular Reactors could do it and
replace every single windmill in Cornwall.

Bring it on!

[Joe]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 11:19:39 +0100

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free
energy from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about
(but not seeing) for the last 25 years.

One of Rolls Royce's putative Small Modular Reactors could do it and
replace every single windmill in Cornwall.

There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres,
though of course in the US there is plenty of room, though not that
much cooling water in the empty bits.

Funny how we've all got to save energy, do the global warming thing,
but nobody turns a hair at the idea of more and more data centres,
probably getting to the point where they will directly heat up the
planet measurably. Where's Greta?

[mm0fmf]

Post by Joe
nobody turns a hair at the idea of more and more data centres

There's lots of people horrified at the energy being used by more and
more data centres.

The data centre I use to host stuff is in Iceland. So geothermal power
from all the lava etc. means cheap electricity and Iceland means it's
cold enough that you can cool your data centre by opening the windows.

The only real cost is limited connectivity so data transmission costs
are higher and data caps are lower.

[The Other John]

There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres, though
of course in the US there is plenty of room, though not that much
cooling water in the empty bits.
Funny how we've all got to save energy, do the global warming thing,
but nobody turns a hair at the idea of more and more data centres,
probably getting to the point where they will directly heat up the
planet measurably. Where's Greta?

Not long ago there was talk of building data centres on the sea bed for
cheap cooling. How far has that got?

[Andy Burns]

Post by The Other John
Not long ago there was talk of building data centres on the sea bed for
cheap cooling. How far has that got?

Microsoft did a trial, but took it no further

<https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/microsoft-confirms-project-natick-underwater-data-center-is-no-more/>

[Paul]

Post by The Other John

There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres, though
of course in the US there is plenty of room, though not that much
cooling water in the empty bits.
Funny how we've all got to save energy, do the global warming thing,
but nobody turns a hair at the idea of more and more data centres,
probably getting to the point where they will directly heat up the
planet measurably. Where's Greta?

Not long ago there was talk of building data centres on the sea bed for
cheap cooling. How far has that got?

The fish complained about the cost of vegetables to make the chowder.

I presume you park your dory over the data center, dip a spoon
in the water, and there is your chowder.

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/microsoft-confirms-project-natick-underwater-data-center-is-no-more/

I asked our divers, when I worked on an ocean-going project, what the
water velocity was like (in the inter-tidal zone we were using),
and they said the water shoots you along the ocean floor like a dozen
feet and then back again. Even when you go further out, but are still
within spitting distance of shore, I don't think the conditions are
that much better. I would think at a minimum, you would not really want
hard drives out there (just because of the subsonics), and SSDs would
be fine. The other equipment that moves would likely be able to take it.

But management are not deterred. It's the little people who do the
work, and they don't particularly matter. They'll do stuff like this
anyway.

All people remember, is the shots from that Bond flick they
watched, which were obviously shot in a swimming pool. The real
world can be quite different.

Even land based installations have their issues. You should see
the prep for our stuff to make it earthquake proof. Imagine water
cooled high power equipment, remaining water-tight in the middle
of an earthquake.

The only environment that is truly benign, is your livingroom :-)

Paul

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by The Other John

There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres, though
of course in the US there is plenty of room, though not that much
cooling water in the empty bits.
Funny how we've all got to save energy, do the global warming thing,
but nobody turns a hair at the idea of more and more data centres,
probably getting to the point where they will directly heat up the
planet measurably. Where's Greta?

Not long ago there was talk of building data centres on the sea bed for
cheap cooling. How far has that got?

Fairly good place to put the reactor as well

[Andy Burns]

Post by Joe
There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres,

Microsoft is looking at getting Three Mile Island (unit 1, not the
meltdown unit 2) back online for their data centres. Amazon has a data
centre next door to a nuclear power station in Pennsylvania with an
agreement to buy 3/4 of its output.

[Pancho]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Joe
There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres,

Microsoft is looking at getting Three Mile Island (unit 1, not the
meltdown unit 2) back online for their data centres.  Amazon has a data
centre next door to a nuclear power station in Pennsylvania with an
agreement to buy 3/4 of its output.

Wow, 600 MW. That is a lot of computing power. I don't know how much a
single server consumes, but it has to less that 600 W. So that is like
more than 1 million servers.

FWIW, my entire home computer stuff only consumes about 100 W. That is
some serious cloud power. Especially when you consider Microsoft is only
one player.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Pancho

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Joe
There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres,

Microsoft is looking at getting Three Mile Island (unit 1, not the
meltdown unit 2) back online for their data centres.  Amazon has a data
centre next door to a nuclear power station in Pennsylvania with an
agreement to buy 3/4 of its output.

Wow, 600 MW. That is a lot of computing power. I don't know how much a
single server consumes, but it has to less that 600 W. So that is like
more than 1 million servers.
FWIW, my entire home computer stuff only consumes about 100 W. That is
some serious cloud power. Especially when you consider Microsoft is only
one player.

"AI" is a resource sink. And the worst example of the industry forcing
unwanted shiny shite on a credulous public still impressed by digital
watches.

It used to be (still is) you couldn't get a non "smart" TV. Now try
buying anything vaguely electronic that hasn't got a shitting "powered by
AI" sticker on it.

And yet Googles "AI" search results get worse by the hour.

[Pancho]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Pancho

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Joe
There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres,

Microsoft is looking at getting Three Mile Island (unit 1, not the
meltdown unit 2) back online for their data centres.  Amazon has a data
centre next door to a nuclear power station in Pennsylvania with an
agreement to buy 3/4 of its output.

Wow, 600 MW. That is a lot of computing power. I don't know how much a
single server consumes, but it has to less that 600 W. So that is like
more than 1 million servers.
FWIW, my entire home computer stuff only consumes about 100 W. That is
some serious cloud power. Especially when you consider Microsoft is only
one player.

"AI" is a resource sink. And the worst example of the industry forcing
unwanted shiny shite on a credulous public still impressed by digital
watches.
It used to be (still is) you couldn't get a non "smart" TV. Now try
buying anything vaguely electronic that hasn't got a shitting "powered by
AI" sticker on it.
And yet Googles "AI" search results get worse by the hour.

Don't get me started on smart TVs. I bought a smart TV a couple of weeks
ago, to use as a computer monitor, via HDMI. It is a brilliant monitor,
but every time the screen goes to sleep it takes about a minute to
restart/reboot.

The TV also repeatedly whinges about having no internet connection,
every time I start it.

How does one turn smart off?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Pancho

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Pancho

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Joe
There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres,

Microsoft is looking at getting Three Mile Island (unit 1, not the
meltdown unit 2) back online for their data centres.  Amazon has a data
centre next door to a nuclear power station in Pennsylvania with an
agreement to buy 3/4 of its output.

Wow, 600 MW. That is a lot of computing power. I don't know how much a
single server consumes, but it has to less that 600 W. So that is like
more than 1 million servers.
FWIW, my entire home computer stuff only consumes about 100 W. That is
some serious cloud power. Especially when you consider Microsoft is only
one player.

"AI" is a resource sink. And the worst example of the industry forcing
unwanted shiny shite on a credulous public still impressed by digital
watches.
It used to be (still is) you couldn't get a non "smart" TV. Now try
buying anything vaguely electronic that hasn't got a shitting "powered by
AI" sticker on it.
And yet Googles "AI" search results get worse by the hour.

Don't get me started on smart TVs. I bought a smart TV a couple of weeks
ago, to use as a computer monitor, via HDMI. It is a brilliant monitor,
but every time the screen goes to sleep it takes about a minute to
restart/reboot.

yeah. they are buggers for that. stop the computer going into screen
blank mode is best bet

Post by Pancho
The TV also repeatedly whinges about having no internet connection,
every time I start it.
How does one turn smart off?

should be a menu item for that. or you could let it connect to some wifi

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Pancho

[quoted text muted]

Don't get me started on smart TVs. I bought a smart TV a couple of weeks
ago, to use as a computer monitor, via HDMI. It is a brilliant monitor,
but every time the screen goes to sleep it takes about a minute to
restart/reboot.

Longer than valve TVs took to warm up !

[Joe]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2024 19:39:05 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Pancho

[quoted text muted]

Don't get me started on smart TVs. I bought a smart TV a couple of
weeks ago, to use as a computer monitor, via HDMI. It is a
brilliant monitor, but every time the screen goes to sleep it takes
about a minute to restart/reboot.

Longer than valve TVs took to warm up !

I have a non-smart TV which takes 13 seconds to wake up, which is
indeed longer than my last CRT monitor took.

What's more annoying is that in PC mode, it powers up and immediately
goes to standby, which requires a button push on the side to wake it
up. It doesn't matter whether it is receiving a picture or not. You
never find that sort of detail in the brochure, or even the user manual.

[Tim Streater]

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

[Pancho]

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Rather than sit at a desk I can sit in a comfy chair, feet up, with a
keyboard in my lap, mouse on the arm of the chair, and a 55 inch monitor
about 6 foot away. It's what I'm doing now.

Obviously not the sort of thing a wife would allow, unless you have your
own den.

[Joe]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 12:46:43 +0100

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Yes, more correctly 'PC Input', but in this case the behaviour was in
question, which should not be expected to be different for different
sources, so I felt 'mode' was appropriate.

And it is a VGA cable rather than HDMI, as this computer has a DVI
connector, and a simple adaptor doesn't work and I can't be bothered
wasting time on it when VGA works.

[Tim Streater]

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

[Pancho]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU driver
got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now recovers
in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU driver
got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now recovers
in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

[Tim Streater]

On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU driver
got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now recovers
in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's what I'd
use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are simple on the Mac
(or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the taskbar that you can click
to start an app.

[Pancho]

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU driver
got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now recovers
in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's what I'd
use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are simple on the Mac
(or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the taskbar that you can click
to start an app.

I gave up on Mint 10 years ago, I was new to Linux and found any
variation from standard Ubuntu difficult to cope with, when following
examples. So I used standard Ubuntu, I learned to love Gnome. So now I
use Gnome out of choice, even when not using Ubuntu,

[Joe]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 22:43:43 +0100

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho
The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU
driver got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it
now recovers in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP
business desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1]
that's what I'd use. Although it's still a pain to do some things
that are simple on the Mac (or even on Windows) like getting an
icon into the taskbar that you can click to start an app.

I gave up on Mint 10 years ago, I was new to Linux and found any
variation from standard Ubuntu difficult to cope with, when following
examples. So I used standard Ubuntu, I learned to love Gnome. So now
I use Gnome out of choice, even when not using Ubuntu,

I gave up on Gnome when they released Gnome 3. Rather than just leave
my Gnome 2 desktop, they told me my computer wasn't good enough for
Gnome 3 (it was, as it happened) and installed a clean Gnome 2 with none
of my configurations. That's the kind of thing Microsoft might do, and I
haven't been back to them since. I use a few Gnome applications, but
not the desktop. Xfce4 on Debian.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU
driver got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now
recovers in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's
what I'd use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are
simple on the Mac (or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the
taskbar that you can click to start an app.

Linux still isn't ready for a corporate desktop. And never will be.
That's the choice they made. Which begs the question why anyone is
surprised by it.

[Tim Streater]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU
driver got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now
recovers in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's
what I'd use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are
simple on the Mac (or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the
taskbar that you can click to start an app.

Linux still isn't ready for a corporate desktop. And never will be.
That's the choice they made. Which begs the question why anyone is
surprised by it.

Oh, am I a corporate?

And I see I omitted the reference [1].

[1] I mean to put that the latest nonsense that apparently Apple is foisting
on us in their next release will be this bollocks you see with Win-11. Make
the mistake of moving a window close to the edge of the screen and it
"helpfully" tiles everything on the screen for you. I shall be turning that
off as I would on the machine I use Win-11 on one day most weeks - if I could
find out how.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU
driver got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now
recovers in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's
what I'd use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are
simple on the Mac (or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the
taskbar that you can click to start an app.

Linux still isn't ready for a corporate desktop. And never will be.
That's the choice they made. Which begs the question why anyone is
surprised by it.

Oh, am I a corporate?
And I see I omitted the reference [1].
[1] I mean to put that the latest nonsense that apparently Apple is foisting
on us in their next release will be this bollocks you see with Win-11. Make
the mistake of moving a window close to the edge of the screen and it
"helpfully" tiles everything on the screen for you. I shall be turning that
off as I would on the machine I use Win-11 on one day most weeks - if I could
find out how.

yeah. Mint Mate does similar by default. Resizes your windows in
unexpected ways., It is the first thing to turn off.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU
driver got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now
recovers in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's
what I'd use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are
simple on the Mac (or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the
taskbar that you can click to start an app.

Linux still isn't ready for a corporate desktop. And never will be.
That's the choice they made. Which begs the question why anyone is
surprised by it.

Oh it is more than ready for the corporate desktop.
Its a matter of the applications that a typical corporate desktop uses,
supporting it.

Many large organisations use it.

[Jethro_uk]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU
driver got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it
now recovers in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's
what I'd use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are
simple on the Mac (or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the
taskbar that you can click to start an app.

Linux still isn't ready for a corporate desktop. And never will be.
That's the choice they made. Which begs the question why anyone is
surprised by it.

Oh it is more than ready for the corporate desktop.
Its a matter of the applications that a typical corporate desktop uses,
supporting it.
Many large organisations use it.

I'm talking corporate commercial, not academic or scientific.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Jethro_uk

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU
driver got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it
now recovers in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's
what I'd use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are
simple on the Mac (or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the
taskbar that you can click to start an app.

Linux still isn't ready for a corporate desktop. And never will be.
That's the choice they made. Which begs the question why anyone is
surprised by it.

Oh it is more than ready for the corporate desktop.
Its a matter of the applications that a typical corporate desktop uses,
supporting it.
Many large organisations use it.

I'm talking corporate commercial, not academic or scientific.

I'm talking as in city councils. And banks and financial houses.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU driver
got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now recovers
in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's what I'd
use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are simple on the Mac
(or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the taskbar that you can click
to start an app.

That is trivial in at least Mint MATE.

Go to the full menu and find the app, right click, add to panel.

[Tim Streater]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU driver
got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now recovers
in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's what I'd
use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are simple on the Mac
(or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the taskbar that you can click
to start an app.

That is trivial in at least Mint MATE.
Go to the full menu and find the app, right click, add to panel.

To which menu do you refer?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim Streater

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater
On 30 Sep 2024 at 14:29:07 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.

Oh dear. I'll have to stop connecting it to my Macintosh, then.

How many other users have you got on your Macintoshs then?
PC stands for Personal Computer, even if its running Ubuntu on a
Raspberry Pi.

The "PC" I'm using, is actually Armbian on an Orange Pi. The GPU driver
got much better. It still crashes about once a day, but it now recovers
in about 1 minute, rather than requiring a reboot.

Well I am conservative to the last. Still a ten year old HP business
desktop, running Linux Mint

Mint usn't bad and if Apple ever make macOS totally shitty [1] that's what I'd
use. Although it's still a pain to do some things that are simple on the Mac
(or even on Windows) like getting an icon into the taskbar that you can click
to start an app.

That is trivial in at least Mint MATE.
Go to the full menu and find the app, right click, add to panel.

To which menu do you refer?

I dunno what's its proper name is. Its the task bar item that is always
there, which opens a whole slew of menus of all the installed
applications, so you can launch from there, or generate desktop or
taskbar launchers from there.

Or right click on the taskbar and select 'add to panel'.

If your program is so hairy assed that it didnt end up in there, then
you have to manually build a launcher on the desktop (cursor on desktop,
right click, create launcher) and move it into the taskbar...

Remember I am using the MATE user experience (sic!) and it may be
different in cinnamon, or Xfce...

[Tim Streater]

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Or right click on the taskbar and select 'add to panel'.

Thanks for that. That's actually quite do-able. I'd been doing it manually
before, with a .Desktop file etc. Funny, I'm sure I tried that before and
didn't get anywhere.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim Streater

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Or right click on the taskbar and select 'add to panel'.

Thanks for that. That's actually quite do-able. I'd been doing it manually
before, with a .Desktop file etc. Funny, I'm sure I tried that before and
didn't get anywhere.

That's the sort of *useful* development that goes on in the MATE
interface. Solid traditional and has useful features but doesn't blow
you away with eye candy and 'sexy' default behaviour.

I always felt that in a sort of random monkeys on keyboards sort of way,
windows XP was accidentally about as good as it gets, and MATE is an XP
like dashboard on a far more stable chassis.

[Tim Streater]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Or right click on the taskbar and select 'add to panel'.

Thanks for that. That's actually quite do-able. I'd been doing it manually
before, with a .Desktop file etc. Funny, I'm sure I tried that before and
didn't get anywhere.

That's the sort of *useful* development that goes on in the MATE
interface. Solid traditional and has useful features but doesn't blow
you away with eye candy and 'sexy' default behaviour.
I always felt that in a sort of random monkeys on keyboards sort of way,
windows XP was accidentally about as good as it gets, and MATE is an XP
like dashboard on a far more stable chassis.

TBH I didn't find XP too bad apart from the shitty chicken-scratches fonts,
and all the usual Windows bollocks like drive letters and no, you can't
rename/move that file because it's open (the odd thing on this last one is
that in the macOS version of Office, MS managed to get that one right).

[Joe]

On 2 Oct 2024 15:03:03 GMT

On 2 Oct 2024 at 10:42:26 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher

On 1 Oct 2024 at 16:55:51 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Or right click on the taskbar and select 'add to panel'.

Thanks for that. That's actually quite do-able. I'd been doing it
manually before, with a .Desktop file etc. Funny, I'm sure I tried
that before and didn't get anywhere.

That's the sort of *useful* development that goes on in the MATE
interface. Solid traditional and has useful features but doesn't
blow you away with eye candy and 'sexy' default behaviour.
I always felt that in a sort of random monkeys on keyboards sort of
way, windows XP was accidentally about as good as it gets, and
MATE is an XP like dashboard on a far more stable chassis.

TBH I didn't find XP too bad apart from the shitty chicken-scratches
fonts, and all the usual Windows bollocks like drive letters and no,
you can't rename/move that file because it's open (the odd thing on
this last one is that in the macOS version of Office, MS managed to
get that one right).

I didn't have 'blue-screen' problems with Windows either, even with 95.
I think most of the trouble came from badly-written software, though of
course bad data should not crash an application, and bad applications
should not crash an operating system. Both those things unfortunately
still happen today, as was demonstrated fairly dramatically recently.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Tim Streater

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Tim Streater

Post by The Natural Philosopher
Or right click on the taskbar and select 'add to panel'.

Thanks for that. That's actually quite do-able. I'd been doing it manually
before, with a .Desktop file etc. Funny, I'm sure I tried that before and
didn't get anywhere.

That's the sort of *useful* development that goes on in the MATE
interface. Solid traditional and has useful features but doesn't blow
you away with eye candy and 'sexy' default behaviour.
I always felt that in a sort of random monkeys on keyboards sort of way,
windows XP was accidentally about as good as it gets, and MATE is an XP
like dashboard on a far more stable chassis.

TBH I didn't find XP too bad apart from the shitty chicken-scratches fonts,
and all the usual Windows bollocks like drive letters and no, you can't
rename/move that file because it's open (the odd thing on this last one is
that in the macOS version of Office, MS managed to get that one right).

I agree. My main objection to the pirated XP I briefly ran was that it
was unstable. And still is - I use it in a VM occasionally and if it
runs out of memory its fucked

Linux really didn't start to be as usable as a desktop GUI till around
2006 or thereabouts

I think I started out with a debian stable gnome environment, tried
ubuntu but for whatever reason that didnt play nice with my then laptop,
and eventually tried Mint and found it more than good enough, so I
stopped looking.
I have no idea how long I have been on it. at least as far back as 2012.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.
Rather than sit at a desk I can sit in a comfy chair, feet up, with a
keyboard in my lap, mouse on the arm of the chair, and a 55 inch monitor
about 6 foot away. It's what I'm doing now.
Obviously not the sort of thing a wife would allow, unless you have your
own den.

However be aware that this can with certain TVs result in a shit UI.

Many Tvs delay sound and video to get them synched and to correct other
issues, and do this on HDMI as well

My not so old Panasonic was operated as you describe, but the 300ms
delay in moving the mouse to the cursor shifting made it a crappy
experience. And sound had to use the TVs speakers or it was totally out
of synch

[Pancho]

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.
Rather than sit at a desk I can sit in a comfy chair, feet up, with a
keyboard in my lap, mouse on the arm of the chair, and a 55 inch
monitor about 6 foot away. It's what I'm doing now.
Obviously not the sort of thing a wife would allow, unless you have
your own den.

However be aware that this can with certain TVs result in a shit UI.
Many Tvs delay sound and video to get them synched and to correct other
issues, and do this on HDMI as well
My not so old Panasonic was operated as you describe, but the 300ms
delay in moving the mouse to the cursor shifting made it a crappy
experience. And sound had to use the TVs speakers or it was totally out
of synch

Mouse sync is fine. I don't use TV sound.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Pancho

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Pancho

Post by Tim Streater

What's more annoying is that in PC mode ...

What is PC mode?

Using the TV as a monitor for a PC connected by HDMI cable.
Rather than sit at a desk I can sit in a comfy chair, feet up, with a
keyboard in my lap, mouse on the arm of the chair, and a 55 inch
monitor about 6 foot away. It's what I'm doing now.
Obviously not the sort of thing a wife would allow, unless you have
your own den.

However be aware that this can with certain TVs result in a shit UI.
Many Tvs delay sound and video to get them synched and to correct
other issues, and do this on HDMI as well
My not so old Panasonic was operated as you describe, but the 300ms
delay in moving the mouse to the cursor shifting made it a crappy
experience. And sound had to use the TVs speakers or it was totally
out of synch

Mouse sync is fine. I don't use TV sound.

As I said, its not a universal issue. My Panasonic TV just happened to
do it.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Post by Joe
On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 11:19:39 +0100

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free
energy from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about
(but not seeing) for the last 25 years.

One of Rolls Royce's putative Small Modular Reactors could do it and
replace every single windmill in Cornwall.

There is talk about using that sort of thing for AI data centres,
though of course in the US there is plenty of room, though not that
much cooling water in the empty bits.

Colorado river is icy as fuck in the 50°C desert

Post by Joe
Funny how we've all got to save energy, do the global warming thing,
but nobody turns a hair at the idea of more and more data centres,
probably getting to the point where they will directly heat up the
planet measurably. Where's Greta?

It's all about preserving energy for the elites and fucking the peasants
over.
Climate change is simply a convenient excuse.

[alan_m]

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free energy
from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about (but not seeing)
for the last 25 years.

All that free energy disappeared when they changed the green goal posts
for the umpteenth time. We now have to save the planet no matter how
much it costs.

[Joe]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 12:36:22 +0100

Post by alan_m

Post by Spike
Doubtless the desalination plant will be powered by all that free
energy from wind, solar, and tide that we’ve been hearing about
(but not seeing) for the last 25 years.

All that free energy disappeared when they changed the green goal
posts for the umpteenth time. We now have to save the planet no
matter how much it costs.

The end justifies the means. Now, where have I heard that before?

[Fredxx]

Post by Chris Hogg

Post by Spike
QUOTE
Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, said: “Decades of neglecting
its own infrastructure have left Southern Water having to choose between
unappealing options as the climate crisis threatens supplies. Causing
permanent damage to local ecosystems by taking more water would be a
further foolish concession to the short-termism that got us into this mess.
“Tankering in huge quantities of water from Norway will inevitably be a
costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that of doing a better job with
the water resources that are available in a rainy country like the UK …
Despite the obvious failings of planning, water companies need to start
thinking of potable fresh water as a precious and finite resource, and plan
to start treating it as such.”
UNQUOTE
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/26/southern-water-considers-shipping-supplies-from-norwegian-fjords>
Does anyone know the view of Greenpeace UK’s chief scientist, Doug Parr, on
the subject of shipping huge quantities of specially-manufactured wood
chippings to power Drax, a costly and carbon-intensive alternative to that
of doing a better job?

South West Water, part of the Pennon Group, is planning a desalination
plant on the coast at Par in mid-Cornwall (1). Not sure how that's
going to work in terms of energy efficiency and carbon emissions. The
energy has to come from somewhere, and how efficient will it be?
There's a plant on the Lizard peninsula producing sea salt(2); perhaps
they should get together!
(1) https://tinyurl.com/474hu65zl
(2) https://www.cornishseasalt.co.uk/pages/our-story

While I might initially agree with you. You can desalinate sea-water
when it is either windy or full sunshine. There are reservoirs where you
can store the pure water for when the wind doesn't blow, or when the sun
doesn't shine.

It's not rocket science.