Postponement to part L (condensing boilers)?

[John Stumbles]

Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

[1] tutor and fellow students on CG6084 course last week, and from PMs who
seem to be still selling only standard efficiency boilers.

[2] I can imagine the 3 month bit might arise because when notifying it's
possible to say that a contract fro a SE boiler had been agreed before 1st
April, allowing installation up to 1st July.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

[Rob Morley]

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

They would say that if they have a load of stock to shift :-)

[Ed Sirett]

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

At another PM round here (WMI Simpsons) they about 20 W-B Juniors
stacked up ready to go.

It looks like no matter how much legislation is passed no one is going to
follow it until everyone else does.

[Doctor Evil]

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

At another PM round here (WMI Simpsons) they about 20 W-B Juniors
stacked up ready to go.

In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

Post by Ed Sirett
It looks like no matter how much legislation is passed no one is going to
follow it until everyone else does.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

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[m***@privacy.net]

On 1 May,

Post by Doctor Evil
In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

I wonder when people will start getting leigionaires disease from the low
temperature plumes.

[John Stumbles]

Post by m***@privacy.net
On 1 May,

Post by Doctor Evil
In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

I wonder when people will start getting leigionaires disease from the low
temperature plumes.

Suspect you'll have along time to wait! As I understand it Legionella breeds
in warm water, not gas flames.

[m***@privacy.net]

On 2 May,

Post by John Stumbles

Post by m***@privacy.net
On 1 May,

Post by Doctor Evil
In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

I wonder when people will start getting leigionaires disease from the low
temperature plumes.

Suspect you'll have along time to wait! As I understand it Legionella
breeds in warm water, not gas flames.

Is it guaranteed that there is no condensation (in a condensing boiler) that
sits at about the critical temperature for legionella formation, and will not
escape as an aerosol?

[DJC]

Post by m***@privacy.net
On 2 May,

Post by John Stumbles
Suspect you'll have along time to wait! As I understand it Legionella
breeds in warm water, not gas flames.

Is it guaranteed that there is no condensation (in a condensing boiler) that
sits at about the critical temperature for legionella formation, and will not
escape as an aerosol?

The plume from the flue is likely to be clean, but the condensate that
drains outside, (the only option for my flat), might be another matter.

[Andy Hall]

Post by m***@privacy.net
On 2 May,

Post by John Stumbles

Post by m***@privacy.net
On 1 May,

Post by Doctor Evil
In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

I wonder when people will start getting leigionaires disease from the low
temperature plumes.

Suspect you'll have along time to wait! As I understand it Legionella
breeds in warm water, not gas flames.

Is it guaranteed that there is no condensation (in a condensing boiler) that
sits at about the critical temperature for legionella formation, and will not
escape as an aerosol?

If there were an issue with this, it would have been noticed before
now since condensing boilers have been in use in Holland and Germany
for 20 years.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Post by Doctor Evil
In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

Do modern ones really do that? I've never managed to get much of one
out of my Keston (actually I was looking forward to seeing large fog
cloud when I installed it). I don't think it's very much worse than
a convensional boiler. Maybe this is because it spends most of its
time with the flow temperature set to 45C, and I didn't ever set it
above 55C this winter. Maybe it's just better than some others at
routing the condensate down the drain rather than out of the flue?

[Ed Sirett]

many non-condensing boilers now

Post by Doctor Evil

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel
as they were before April 1st.

At another PM round here (WMI Simpsons) they about 20 W-B Juniors
stacked up ready to go.

In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

A somewhat over-stated case IME.

Post by Doctor Evil

Post by Ed Sirett
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Doctor Evil
In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

Just why would this make a difference? Not that I expect a sensible answer.

[John Stumbles]

Post by John Stumbles

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency

boilers

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

At another PM round here (WMI Simpsons) they about 20 W-B Juniors
stacked up ready to go.

In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

London is not all flats[1]. There will probably still be a significant
market for non-condensers where proximity to windows and adjacent
properties makes it impossible to site condis in accordance with
recommendations[2]



[1] for usual values of 'London'. I'm reminded of an old boy in a sleepy
village in Sussex who went up to London for the first time in his life on
the Waterloo train one day. He came back full of awe and wonder about how
big the city was. "And all under glass" he said.

[2] which according to our CG6084 tutor are to place further away from
windows and adjacent properties than statutory minima, but now I come to
look for it in the printed bumph they gave us I'm damned if I can find it.

[Doctor Evil]

Post by John Stumbles

Post by John Stumbles

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency

boilers

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

At another PM round here (WMI Simpsons) they about 20 W-B Juniors
stacked up ready to go.

In London that is understandable, as condensers will not be suitable for
most flats because of the plume.

London is not all flats[1]. There will probably still be a significant
market for non-condensers where proximity to windows and adjacent
properties makes it impossible to site condis in accordance with
recommendations[2]
[1] for usual values of 'London'. I'm reminded of an old boy in a sleepy
village in Sussex who went up to London for the first time in his life on
the Waterloo train one day. He came back full of awe and wonder about how
big the city was. "And all under glass" he said.
[2] which according to our CG6084 tutor are to place further away from
windows and adjacent properties than statutory minima, but now I come to
look for it in the printed bumph they gave us I'm damned if I can find it.

Which mean he was making it up or going on rumour. The form on the ODPM is
still relevant and the one to go by, not rumour.


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[raden]

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

At another PM round here (WMI Simpsons) they about 20 W-B Juniors
stacked up ready to go.

Stack 'em high Bob !!

(and paul)

Post by Ed Sirett
It looks like no matter how much legislation is passed no one is going to
follow it until everyone else does.

Or looks more like people are just starting to ignore silly legislation

[Ed Sirett]

Post by raden

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by Andrew Gabriel

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Can't shed any light, but in Plumbcenter last weekend, and they
said they were selling just as many non-condensing boilers now
as they were before April 1st.

At another PM round here (WMI Simpsons) they about 20 W-B Juniors
stacked up ready to go.

Stack 'em high Bob !!
(and paul)

Post by Ed Sirett
It looks like no matter how much legislation is passed no one is going to
follow it until everyone else does.

Or looks more like people are just starting to ignore silly legislation

I think so.
It looks like one of the effects of all the 'notification' stuff (Parts P,
L & J) is to split the market.
Firstly a premium segment with all the work
being done by members of the various clubs, all the paperwork done
properly, a stack of tests and "sustificats" etc.
I'm not sure how big a proportion of the market that will be. I suspect it
won't be much bigger than it was before - i.e. mostly "public" works etc.

Secondly a much larger segment of jobs done to various standards for
various costs the upper end of this will be solid jobs for reasonable cost
but incomplete paperwork.

The crunch will come if and only if the conveyancing lawyers start to make
a lot of trouble over the lack of paperwork and then it becomes a problem.
However even if this scenario becomes common there will be a thriving
industry of 'regularisation'. Where someone with all the right tickets
and paperwork comes along and signs off a house as 'compliant with all
regulations'.

[Peter Taylor]

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?
[1] tutor and fellow students on CG6084 course last week, and from PMs who
seem to be still selling only standard efficiency boilers.
[2] I can imagine the 3 month bit might arise because when notifying it's
possible to say that a contract fro a SE boiler had been agreed before 1st
April, allowing installation up to 1st July.

I appreciate this is a different question, but I rang Aga-Raeburn the other day
to ask whether their combined boilers/cooking ranges are still legal, and they
said Part L won't apply to these for "at least 5 years".

[Martin Evans]

Post by Peter Taylor
I appreciate this is a different question, but I rang Aga-Raeburn the other day
to ask whether their combined boilers/cooking ranges are still legal, and they
said Part L won't apply to these for "at least 5 years".

And in 5 years they will only be permitted for cooking use? Guess we
better buy one now and fit it before fuckwit Prescott and his friends
make it illegal.




--

[ski]

There is this weird get out clause which says that for installers that have
boilers contracted to be installed have until July to install them. So what
does the cowboy do? He installs a non condensing boiler saying that the
works were contracted before April. Bare in mind he still has to register
the installation with CORGI/ Building control.
I have yet to find an installer who thinks Part P is a good idea. If people
have a choice of an installer who installs a condensing boiler, registers it
and charges the money or someone who can do the work ok but does not give a
toss about the Regs but saves you hundreds of pounds who does the customer
go to in at least 50% of cases, and bare in mind there are still a lot of
people who do not even know about Part P who will only find out when they go
to sell their houses and do not have the certificate

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?
[1] tutor and fellow students on CG6084 course last week, and from PMs who
seem to be still selling only standard efficiency boilers.
[2] I can imagine the 3 month bit might arise because when notifying it's
possible to say that a contract fro a SE boiler had been agreed before 1st
April, allowing installation up to 1st July.

[Tony Bryer]

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high
efficiency boilers has been put back for 3 months or even a year.
However I can't find anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2]
websites. Anyone have definite info?

There is more than a little heat ATM re an amendment to the Building
Regs L1 Approved Document which was released without warning at the
start of April to take effect from April 1. It's meant to require the
installation of condensing boilers (no surprise there) but goes
further and could cause some designers real problems. Check out
http://www.nher.co.uk/j4.shtml for one of our competitor's take on
this.

[Mike]

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

There is a two year delay for oil boilers - see OFTEC website

[Ed Sirett]

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?
[1] tutor and fellow students on CG6084 course last week, and from PMs who
seem to be still selling only standard efficiency boilers.
[2] I can imagine the 3 month bit might arise because when notifying it's
possible to say that a contract fro a SE boiler had been agreed before 1st
April, allowing installation up to 1st July.

My PM is saying this too, when I queried why he had a non-condensing unit
sitting by the doorway. Nothing about the year only 3 months.

[Paul Giverin]

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?
[1] tutor and fellow students on CG6084 course last week, and from PMs who
seem to be still selling only standard efficiency boilers.
[2] I can imagine the 3 month bit might arise because when notifying it's
possible to say that a contract fro a SE boiler had been agreed before 1st
April, allowing installation up to 1st July.

My PM is saying this too, when I queried why he had a non-condensing unit
sitting by the doorway. Nothing about the year only 3 months.

I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.

He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

[.]

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

If you never sell your house then it might never be known if you did not
comply with building control and get the installation registered.
Compliance with the new legal requirements to have a condensing boiler
will be best enforced by house buyers who will require certificates.
It may be that your plumber has no problem supplying and fitting a non
condenser because he won't have any comeback in the future. You may
though.

[Lobster]

Post by .
If you never sell your house then it might never be known if you did not
comply with building control and get the installation registered.
Compliance with the new legal requirements to have a condensing boiler
will be best enforced by house buyers who will require certificates.
It may be that your plumber has no problem supplying and fitting a non
condenser because he won't have any comeback in the future. You may
though.

Presumably only if someone has good reason to believe it was fitted
after 1 April 2005; if Joe sells his house in (say) 2007 and claims, if
challenged, that the boiler was fitted in 2004 (he can't remember the
plumber, it was someone out of yellow pages), who's going to be able to
prove otherwise? Is Joe's buyer really going to pull out of a sale
because there's no proof of the installation date?

David

[fred]

Post by Lobster
Presumably only if someone has good reason to believe it was fitted
after 1 April 2005;

That Date of Manufacture: W13/2005 label can be a bit of a give-away ;-)

[:::Jerry::::]

Post by fred

Post by Lobster
Presumably only if someone has good reason to believe it was fitted
after 1 April 2005;

That Date of Manufacture: W13/2005 label can be a bit of a give-away ;-)

Assuming it's still present...

[fred]

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

[Paul Giverin]

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

Why would I want a boiler which costs a third more to purchase and which
may not last as long and cost more to keep in good repair . . . .

[Andy Hall]

Post by Paul Giverin

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

Why would I want a boiler which costs a third more to purchase and which
may not last as long and cost more to keep in good repair . . . .

You probably wouldn't if the second two points were really the case as
opposed to an old wive's tale. With respect to the first, saving in
energy costs over the boiler lifetime will compensate the purchase
cost.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Andy Hall
With respect to the first, saving in
energy costs over the boiler lifetime will compensate the purchase
cost.

How much does the calculation allow for servicing costs?

Chris

[Andy Hall]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Andy Hall
With respect to the first, saving in
energy costs over the boiler lifetime will compensate the purchase
cost.

How much does the calculation allow for servicing costs?
Chris

There will always be servicing costs.

In terms of product content, there is not a great deal of difference
between recent non-condensing designs with fanned flue and electronic
controls and condensing designs - the main thing being the condensate
collection and disposal.

Therefore if one were comparing apples with apples, there should be
very little difference.

However, if one is factoring older and simpler non-condensing designs,
the component content and spares cost may well be less than with
modern designs.

The perception of higher maintenance costs with condensing boilers
predominantly comes from poor quality first generation UK manufactured
products.

[fred]

Post by Paul Giverin

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

Why would I want a boiler which costs a third more to purchase and which
may not last as long and cost more to keep in good repair . . . .

Each to their own but I do think a lot of installers' opinions are well out of
date. I think your third more to buy is a bit out, but then my third saving on
heating costs was over the odd too, surprised you didn't notice :-).

The Worcester is certainly very simple and pretty efficient for a non
condenser so good luck. I've used and looked after a plain 28i combi in
another house and the cold surge when wanting to top up hot water at the
kitchen sink is a PITA so I hope you are not disappointed going from
stored hot water to combi, again good luck.

[Paul Giverin]

Post by fred
Each to their own but I do think a lot of installers' opinions are well out of
date. I think your third more to buy is a bit out, but then my third saving on
heating costs was over the odd too, surprised you didn't notice :-).

But as we all know, 78.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot ;)

Post by fred
The Worcester is certainly very simple and pretty efficient for a non
condenser so good luck. I've used and looked after a plain 28i combi in
another house and the cold surge when wanting to top up hot water at the
kitchen sink is a PITA so I hope you are not disappointed going from
stored hot water to combi, again good luck.

Thanks. I know that the combi will lack the performance of my current
system but the other benefits are greater. The current airing cupboard
which houses the HWC will be converted to a downstairs loo. This will
leave me free to then knock the separate upstairs bathroom and toilet
into a larger bathroom. I'll also be able to reclaim about 2 square
metres in my lounge by removing the gas fire (very rarely used), back
boiler and the cosmetic chimney breast which encloses it.

[Doctor Evil]

Post by Paul Giverin

Post by fred
Each to their own but I do think a lot of installers' opinions are well out of
date. I think your third more to buy is a bit out, but then my third saving on
heating costs was over the odd too, surprised you didn't notice :-).

But as we all know, 78.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot ;)

Post by fred
The Worcester is certainly very simple and pretty efficient for a non
condenser so good luck. I've used and looked after a plain 28i combi in
another house and the cold surge when wanting to top up hot water at the
kitchen sink is a PITA so I hope you are not disappointed going from
stored hot water to combi, again good luck.

Thanks. I know that the combi will lack
the performance of my current
system but the other benefits are greater.

High flowrate combi's are available.

Post by Paul Giverin
The current airing cupboard
which houses the HWC will be converted to a downstairs loo. This will
leave me free to then knock the separate upstairs bathroom and toilet
into a larger bathroom. I'll also be able to reclaim about 2 square
metres in my lounge by removing the gas fire (very rarely used), back
boiler and the cosmetic chimney breast which encloses it.

A secondary circulation loop, giving instant hot water at the taps, can be
fitted on a combi.


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[Doctor Evil]

Post by Paul Giverin

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

Why would I want a boiler which costs a third more to purchase and which
may not last as long and cost more to keep in good repair . . . .

This is tosh.

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[raden]

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

To save on repair costs ?

[Alan]

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

Will it always be a third, and at what extra cost for installation and
servicing?

Some modern boilers that don't meet with the new legislation may be only
a few percent less efficient than condensing boilers.

A new condensing boiler would have to be around 100% efficient to be 30%
better than my 15 year old 'fuel saver' boiler (based on the figures in
the installers instructions which gives typical, and not maximum, fuel
efficiency)

I bet some of the figures quoted for condensing boilers relate to the
perfect installation and usage which will not be achieved in most cases.

Given that condensing boilers are more expensive and require more
servicing the new boiler may be scrapped before it can pay for itself in
cheaper gas bills.

The argument for cost saving is something akin to the current
advertising for car insurance. If all the companies could actually save
me £200 to £300 on my car insurance they would be paying me for taking
up their policies. The 30% figure for fuel saving with a new gas boiler
is possibly based on boilers that only a small percentage of the
population still own and not for boilers that have been installed in the
last 10 years or more.

[Doctor Evil]

Post by Alan

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

Will it always be a third, and at what extra cost for installation and
servicing?

Installation? just a plastic pipe extra. Service costs? No different. In
fact most condensers should be cheaper as the heat-exchanger don't required
cleaning.

Post by Alan
Some modern boilers that don't meet
with the new legislation may be only
a few percent less efficient than
condensing boilers.

The best non condensing boiler is 79-80%. The worst condensing is 86%, with
most around 90% now.

Post by Alan
A new condensing boiler would have to be around 100% efficient to be 30%
better than my 15 year old 'fuel saver' boiler (based on the figures in
the installers instructions which gives typical, and not maximum, fuel
efficiency)

Andy Hall is getting around 30% and he had a Fuel Saver.

Post by Alan
I bet some of the figures quoted for
condensing boilers relate to the
perfect installation and usage which
will not be achieved in most cases.

No. See SEDBUK.com

Post by Alan
Given that condensing boilers are
more expensive

Not much more.

Post by Alan
and require more
servicing

They require no more servicing in fact less. You must stop making things
up.

Post by Alan
the new boiler may be scrapped
before it can pay for itself in
cheaper gas bills.

Any figures to prove this wild claim?



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[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Doctor Evil
Installation? just a plastic pipe extra. Service costs? No different.
In fact most condensers should be cheaper as the heat-exchanger don't
required cleaning.

Oh dear. One who criticises me for saying a basic RS non condensing boiler
can do ten years or so without heat exchanger cleaning now changes his
tune - when it suits him.

Do the makers recommend this?

[fred]

Post by Alan

Post by fred

Post by Paul Giverin
I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

Yeah, why would you want to save a third on your heating costs . . . .

Will it always be a third, and at what extra cost for installation and
servicing?

I refer my learned friend to my reply of Mon, 02 May 2005 17:17:56 GMT in
which I confessed that I was talking bollocks :-). I recalc'd and guess that
the OP's Worcester would use about 14% gas more than my Keston, all
other things being equal.

[mark]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 21:55:27 +0100, Alan

Post by Alan
The argument for cost saving is something akin to the current
advertising for car insurance. If all the companies could actually save
me £200 to £300 on my car insurance they would be paying me for taking
up their policies.

The direct car insurance cuts out the salesmans (brokers) commision
whch is the 30 percent to which they refer.

[Doctor Evil]

Post by Paul Giverin

Post by Ed Sirett

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?
[1] tutor and fellow students on CG6084 course last week, and from PMs who
seem to be still selling only standard efficiency boilers.
[2] I can imagine the 3 month bit might arise because when notifying it's
possible to say that a contract fro a SE boiler had been agreed before 1st
April, allowing installation up to 1st July.

My PM is saying this too, when I queried why he had a non-condensing unit
sitting by the doorway. Nothing about the year only 3 months.

I had my regular heating engineer quote me for replacing my back boiler
with a combi last week. I don't want a condensing unit and he dislikes
them intensely too as he says that he's fed up fixing the ones he's
installed.

He probably doesn't know how to fit them, or buys crap models.

Post by Paul Giverin
He says that it won't be a problem supplying and fitting a non condenser
and has quoted me for a Worcester Bosch 28Si.

He is breaking the law.

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[raden]

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Yes, I heard that too, but not from a definitive source

whatever, CH merchants still seem to be selling non condensing boilers

[nthng2snet]

Post by raden

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Yes, I heard that too, but not from a definitive source
whatever, CH merchants still seem to be selling non condensing boilers

A combi boiler was fitted a couple of weeks ago. When I asked him
about the need for a condensing boiler he said that they ( corgi ) had
brought out a points system for the replacement of existing
boilers.100 points if no drain was present etc. He said that if you
met so many points, and fitting a condensing boiler was impractable,
then you could fit a standard boiler. He had said that since then they
had done a complete turnaround and allowed the fitting of standard
boilers as 'its your money and your house so you can fit what you
like.'

[Huge]

nthng2snet <nospamhere(replacename)@netscape.net> writes:

[20 lines snipped]

Post by nthng2snet
boilers as 'its your money and your house so you can fit what you
like.'

Quite.

[Andy Hall]

On Mon, 02 May 2005 18:42:36 +0100, nthng2snet

Post by nthng2snet

Post by raden

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Yes, I heard that too, but not from a definitive source
whatever, CH merchants still seem to be selling non condensing boilers

A combi boiler was fitted a couple of weeks ago. When I asked him
about the need for a condensing boiler he said that they ( corgi ) had
brought out a points system for the replacement of existing
boilers.100 points if no drain was present etc. He said that if you
met so many points, and fitting a condensing boiler was impractable,
then you could fit a standard boiler. He had said that since then they
had done a complete turnaround and allowed the fitting of standard
boilers as 'its your money and your house so you can fit what you
like.'

This, for right or wrong, would appear to be folklore.

The points system is published on the ODPM web site. Enter
"condensing boiler" in the search and it will give you a web page and
a PDF. If you pick typical scenarios, you will find that it is not
that easy to get to the required 1000 points for exemption.

Whether CORGI are the authors is another matter, but they appear not
to be directly involved in the implementation.

[Ian_m]

Post by Andy Hall
On Mon, 02 May 2005 18:42:36 +0100, nthng2snet

Post by nthng2snet

Post by raden

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Yes, I heard that too, but not from a definitive source
whatever, CH merchants still seem to be selling non condensing boilers

A combi boiler was fitted a couple of weeks ago. When I asked him
about the need for a condensing boiler he said that they ( corgi ) had
brought out a points system for the replacement of existing
boilers.100 points if no drain was present etc. He said that if you
met so many points, and fitting a condensing boiler was impractable,
then you could fit a standard boiler. He had said that since then they
had done a complete turnaround and allowed the fitting of standard
boilers as 'its your money and your house so you can fit what you
like.'

This, for right or wrong, would appear to be folklore.
The points system is published on the ODPM web site. Enter
"condensing boiler" in the search and it will give you a web page and
a PDF. If you pick typical scenarios, you will find that it is not
that easy to get to the required 1000 points for exemption.
Whether CORGI are the authors is another matter, but they appear not
to be directly involved in the implementation.

Interesting story here about switching a condensing combi back to normal
stored hot water system.

A mate of mine owns a large semi house than when he purchased in 1991 had
immersion HW and gas fires as heating. During the "rebuild" a large
condensing Combi was fitted, condensing combi boilers being the latest and
greatest in 1991. His main gripes were couldn't fill a bath fast (real pain
with kids now) and water condensing on outside side passage path from boiler
plume. This condensation was greatly increased by nextdoors having an
extension built opposite the boiler outlet in mid 90's.

Anyway the boiler finally died, 12 years he was OK about that, heat
exchanger corroded away. Anyway he bit the bullet and had a full stored hot
water system installed and guess what, a normal non-condensing boiler
fitted, as the fitter said a condensing boiler under todays regulations
shouldn't be fitted where the existing one was. Anyway no wet paths any more
and instant baths and all works fine.

[Phil]

Post by Ian_m
Anyway he bit the bullet and had a full stored hot
water system installed and guess what, a normal non-condensing boiler
fitted, as the fitter said a condensing boiler under todays regulations
shouldn't be fitted where the existing one was. Anyway no wet paths any more
and instant baths and all works fine.

Stored hot water? instant baths? and all with no combi or dual combi
or triple combi in sight? Amazing, is this really possible? what
will doctor dickhead think?

(Not that i'll never know as you're still killfiled you double
redundant wittering fool)


--

[Doctor Evil]

Post by Ian_m

Post by Andy Hall
On Mon, 02 May 2005 18:42:36 +0100, nthng2snet

Post by nthng2snet

Post by raden

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency boilers
has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't find
anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have definite
info?

Yes, I heard that too, but not from a definitive source
whatever, CH merchants still seem to be selling non condensing boilers

A combi boiler was fitted a couple of weeks ago. When I asked him
about the need for a condensing boiler he said that they ( corgi ) had
brought out a points system for the replacement of existing
boilers.100 points if no drain was present etc. He said that if you
met so many points, and fitting a condensing boiler was impractable,
then you could fit a standard boiler. He had said that since then they
had done a complete turnaround and allowed the fitting of standard
boilers as 'its your money and your house so you can fit what you
like.'

This, for right or wrong, would appear to be folklore.
The points system is published on the ODPM web site. Enter
"condensing boiler" in the search and it will give you a web page and
a PDF. If you pick typical scenarios, you will find that it is not
that easy to get to the required 1000 points for exemption.
Whether CORGI are the authors is another matter, but they appear not
to be directly involved in the implementation.

Interesting story here about switching a condensing combi back to normal
stored hot water system.
A mate of mine owns a large semi house than when he purchased in 1991 had
immersion HW and gas fires as heating. During the "rebuild" a large
condensing Combi was fitted, condensing combi boilers being the latest and
greatest in 1991. His main gripes were couldn't fill a bath fast (real pain
with kids now) and water condensing on outside side passage path from boiler
plume. This condensation was greatly increased by nextdoors having an
extension built opposite the boiler outlet in mid 90's.
Anyway the boiler finally died, 12 years he was OK about that, heat
exchanger corroded away. Anyway he bit the bullet and had a full stored hot
water system installed and guess what, a normal non-condensing boiler
fitted, as the fitter said a condensing boiler under todays regulations
shouldn't be fitted where the existing one was. Anyway no wet paths any more
and instant baths and all works fine.

It appears that when the 1991 condensing boiler was fitted, it was fine.
The exteswnsion should nopt have been fitted so close to the flue oputlet.
He coudl have objected to teh extensiona dn shown them the regs for
clearance.

BTW, high flowrate combi's are now available. Things have moved on in 14
years.



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[John Stumbles]

Post by Doctor Evil

... water condensing on outside side passage path from boiler
plume. This condensation was greatly increased by nextdoors having an
extension built opposite the boiler outlet in mid 90's.

...

Post by Doctor Evil
It appears that when the 1991 condensing boiler was fitted, it was fine.
The exteswnsion should nopt have been fitted so close to the flue oputlet.
He coudl have objected to teh extensiona dn shown them the regs for
clearance.

Er, actually it's the other way round: a flue (condensing or otherwise) must
not be fitted in a position that would be prohibited if a neighbour had
(already) built up to the boundary line - for precisely the reason
illustrated by this anecdote.

[John Stumbles]

Post by nthng2snet

Post by raden

Post by John Stumbles
Word on the street[1] is that the requirement to fit high efficiency
boilers has been put back for 3 months or even a year. However I can't
find anything on either the ODPM or CORGI[2] websites. Anyone have
definite info?

Yes, I heard that too, but not from a definitive source
whatever, CH merchants still seem to be selling non condensing boilers

A combi boiler was fitted a couple of weeks ago. When I asked him
about the need for a condensing boiler he said that they ( corgi ) had
brought out a points system for the replacement of existing
boilers.100 points if no drain was present etc. He said that if you
met so many points, and fitting a condensing boiler was impractable,
then you could fit a standard boiler.

That's not CORGI's points system, it's 2 Jabs'

Post by nthng2snet
He had said that since then they
had done a complete turnaround and allowed the fitting of standard
boilers as 'its your money and your house so you can fit what you
like.'

Reminds me: another thing our tutor on CG6084 told us was that ultimately if
the customer says that they won't have a condensing boiler under any
circumstances (and puts it in writing) then you can install a
non-condensing one.

Of course that wasn't in the written bumph, which could either be because
it's ballcocks or because They don't want us to know :-)

PS 2 weeks now since the course and still no results back. Candidates'
answers apparently go up to C&Q HQ as soon as you click Finish (the
assessment is done on pooters) and presumably automatically marked within
milliseconds too, so must be a hold up in supply of quills or parchment for
the scribes to write the results on.

[Andy Hall]

On Fri, 06 May 2005 21:37:36 GMT, John Stumbles

Post by John Stumbles
PS 2 weeks now since the course and still no results back. Candidates'
answers apparently go up to C&Q HQ as soon as you click Finish (the
assessment is done on pooters) and presumably automatically marked within
milliseconds too, so must be a hold up in supply of quills or parchment for
the scribes to write the results on.

I expect that it's SEDBUK doing seasonal adjustment.

[Ed Sirett]

Post by John Stumbles
Reminds me: another thing our tutor on CG6084 told us was that ultimately if
the customer says that they won't have a condensing boiler under any
circumstances (and puts it in writing) then you can install a
non-condensing one.

In the pre-assessment bumph I got, there is a booklet from the EST with a
flow chart. Indeed there is a box for the customer's view but this applies
where a non-condensing boiler would have been permitted on the points
system, it allows for the customer to _request_ a condensing boiler even
when it is uneconomic (i.e. the extra costs of installation don't justify
the energy saving over the life of the boiler).

Post by John Stumbles
Of course that wasn't in the written bumph, which could either be because
it's ballcocks or because They don't want us to know :-)

Sounds like the fact has given rise to a nice myth.