Discussion:
Freesat query
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gareth evans
2021-09-14 10:25:21 UTC
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I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever? Why would there be two cables?
Yes and Yes.

There are two cables because there are two (or more) RXs in the sat dish.

With your Humax Sat box, this means that you'll be able to record
on one channel whilst watching another, or alternately record on
two channels.

Our sat dish has three RXs.

Two feeds to my wife's sat box, and one feed to my sat box
at the other end of the room (Yes, we do talk to each other :-) )
charles
2021-09-14 10:31:19 UTC
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I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever? Why would there be two cables?
one for tv, one for recorder?
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
williamwright
2021-09-14 10:48:24 UTC
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Post by charles
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever? Why would there be two cables?
one for tv, one for recorder?
The recorder needs two.

Bill
NY
2021-09-14 11:40:37 UTC
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Post by williamwright
Post by charles
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever? Why would there be two cables?
one for tv, one for recorder?
The recorder needs two.
Do Freesat recorders *always* need two cables, even if you only intended to
record one programme (or multiple programmes from the same multiplex) at a
time? Couldn't you get away with connecting just one cable, and using the
other for a satellite-capable TV?
alan_m
2021-09-14 11:52:37 UTC
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Post by NY
Do Freesat recorders *always* need two cables, even if you only intended
to record one programme (or multiple programmes from the same multiplex)
at a time? Couldn't you get away with connecting just one cable, and
using the other for a satellite-capable TV?
On my PVR I can configure each tuner to be enabled or not. With just one
tuner the functionally is just limited but it still works.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
williamwright
2021-09-14 15:53:31 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by williamwright
The recorder needs two.
Do Freesat recorders *always* need two cables, even if you only intended
to record one programme (or multiple programmes from the same multiplex)
at a time? Couldn't you get away with connecting just one cable, and
using the other for a satellite-capable TV?
Yes of course, but that's a bit crap really.

Bill
tim...
2021-09-15 12:02:03 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by williamwright
Post by charles
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever? Why would there be two cables?
one for tv, one for recorder?
The recorder needs two.
Do Freesat recorders *always* need two cables, even if you only intended
to record one programme (or multiple programmes from the same multiplex)
at a time? Couldn't you get away with connecting just one cable, and using
the other for a satellite-capable TV?
simple answer

it always needs 2 for record one, watch one (live)

if you are happy with recording or watching live, but not both at the same
time, then the machine will work with one feed

Of course, most people can cope with that because they will probably also
have a FreeView feed

there's a more complicated answer which I think we can dispense with
Bob Eager
2021-09-14 10:32:11 UTC
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I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
F connector.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever? Why would there be two cables?
Should be OK. My son moved into a flat with the same layout, although his
TV was satellite ready so no box needed.

Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
--
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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
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williamwright
2021-09-14 10:51:20 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use the
same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have a number
of tuners.

* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks

Bill
John Rumm
2021-09-14 11:46:46 UTC
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Post by williamwright
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use the
same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have a number
of tuners.
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
--
Cheers,

John.

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NY
2021-09-14 12:19:53 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use the
same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have a number
of tuners.
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
Maybe one is low frequency and the other is high, or one is vertically
polarised and the other is horizontally polarised (relating to swimming
direction of sperm) ;-)
tim...
2021-09-15 12:04:26 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use the
same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have a number
of tuners.
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
Maybe one is low frequency and the other is high, or one is vertically
polarised and the other is horizontally polarised (relating to swimming
direction of sperm) ;-)
no

they both feed back to the same LNB and will be transmitting down the wire
whatever the PVR asked the LNB to put on that wire
NY
2021-09-15 13:51:54 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use the
same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have a number
of tuners.
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
they both feed back to the same LNB and will be transmitting down the wire
whatever the PVR asked the LNB to put on that wire
Two cables to the *same* LNB? Not to two different LNBs? Are you aware that
this means that the devices at the ends of the cables will both "see" the
same polarisation and frequency range? How is it decided which of the two
TVs/PVRs will issue the commands to the LNB to select one quadrant (ie one
of two polarisations and one of two frequency ranges)?

Maybe the LNBs are the new sort which can transmit all four quadrants
(polarisation, frequency range) down the same cable, in which case you are
in the same state as with Freeview - that all devices can record *all*
channels, in this case because they can receive all four quadrants.
Andy Burns
2021-09-15 14:02:49 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by tim...
they both feed back to the same LNB and will be transmitting down the
wire whatever the PVR asked the LNB to put on that wire
Two cables to the *same* LNB? Not to two different LNBs?
Different ports of the same LNB
Post by NY
Are you aware
that this means that the devices at the ends of the cables will both
"see" the same polarisation and frequency range?
A quad universal LNB will internally have Horz and Vert signals,
separated into High and Low bands, then depending on what volts/tone
combination each TV/STB sends up its cable, it will send down the
required "quarter" of the signal down from that port.
Post by NY
How is it decided which
of the two TVs/PVRs will issue the commands to the LNB to select one
quadrant (ie one of two polarisations and one of two frequency ranges)?
Maybe the LNBs are the new sort which can transmit all four quadrants
(polarisation, frequency range) down the same cable, in which case you
are in the same state as with Freeview - that all devices can record
*all* channels, in this case because they can receive all four quadrants.
I think you're being rather picky, most people think of the black
plastic lump with a horn and multiple outputs as "the LNB" ... not four
LNBs sharing a horn in a lump of black plastic.
NY
2021-09-15 14:50:30 UTC
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I think you're being rather picky, most people think of the black plastic
lump with a horn and multiple outputs as "the LNB" ... not four LNBs
sharing a horn in a lump of black plastic.
I probably am. I was just checking that the cables didn't both go to the
*same* port on the LNB. Forget I spoke ;-)
alan_m
2021-09-15 14:27:40 UTC
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Post by NY
Post by tim...
Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use
the same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have
a number of tuners.
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
they both feed back to the same LNB and will be transmitting down the
wire whatever the PVR asked the LNB to put on that wire
Two cables to the *same* LNB? Not to two different LNBs? Are you aware
that this means that the devices at the ends of the cables will both
"see" the same polarisation and frequency range?
No,
A universal twin LNB is effectively two independantl controlled LNBs in
the same package with each being controlled by the control signals that
arrive up the two independent output connectors.
A universal quad LNB is effectively 4 independently controlled LNBs in
the same package
There are also universal octo LNB with 8 independent LNBs in the same
package.

A Sky Q LNB has 2 outputs. One output is the horizontally polarised
channels and the other the vertically polarised channels

There is also a new breed of Unicable II LNBs with one output that can
be fed to maybe 32 different tuners/receivers.

There also some hybrid LNB which have the latest technology but also
incorporate some extra outputs to support a legacy installation (a
Unicable output plus 2 off universal LNB outputs).



How is it decided which
Post by NY
of the two TVs/PVRs will issue the commands to the LNB to select one
quadrant (ie one of two polarisations and one of two frequency ranges)?
On a universal LNB with multiple outputs all the outputs are
independently controlled by the box connected to each of the outputs.
Post by NY
Maybe the LNBs are the new sort which can transmit all four quadrants
(polarisation, frequency range) down the same cable, in which case you
are in the same state as with Freeview - that all devices can record
*all* channels, in this case because they can receive all four quadrants.
This is effectively what Sky Q have done but to have all transponders at
the same time it requires the resources of two cables and also stealing
all the frequencies required for FM/DAB radio and terrestrial TV. This
is not a problem because there is a direct connection between the LNB
and sky Q box. However you cannot take the output from a sky Q LNB and
combine signals from other sources, such as teressial TV and FM/DAB
radio, to send down a single cable as you currently can do with some
loft distribution boxes/amplifiers.

A Unicable II works in a different way where effectively there are upto
32 defined slots and each tuner is allocated a slot. Each tuner then
instructs the Unicable II LNB which transponder to be allocated to that
slot and can it can be changed at any time (when the user changes
channel).
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Steve Walker
2021-09-15 14:11:25 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by NY
Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use
the same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have a
number of tuners.
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
Maybe one is low frequency and the other is high, or one is vertically
polarised and the other is horizontally polarised (relating to
swimming direction of sperm) ;-)
no
they both feed back to the same LNB and will be transmitting down the
wire whatever the PVR asked the LNB to put on that wire
There are different types though.

The "normal" LNB will put what the receiver requests on whichever cable
it was requested on (High/Low band and Horizontal/Vertical polarisation,
depending upon voltage and frequency sent to the LNB).

A SKY Q LNB splits all Horizontal polarisation down one cable and
vertical down the other and has no High/Low band split.

A Unicable LNB sends selected channels down a single cable on up to 32
different frequency bands, allowing multiple tuners to use the same
cable simultaneously, throughout the frequency and polarisation range.

Both normal and SKY Q LNBs are common these days and it could be either.
Unicable ones are less so, yet and as there are two cables, it won't be
this type.
williamwright
2021-09-14 15:54:53 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
Bollocks. The two are identical in function*. Freesat and Sky use the
same transmissions. There are two feeds because recorders have a
number of tuners.
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
Yes but I didn't to seem as if I was stating the obvious.

Bill
Owain Lastname
2021-09-14 16:02:14 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
I use them in rotation, to even out the wear.

Owain
John Rumm
2021-09-14 16:29:05 UTC
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Post by Owain Lastname
Post by John Rumm
Post by williamwright
* I mean the two cables, not the two bollocks
Are yours not identical in function? :-)
I use them in rotation, to even out the wear.
Rotation sounds painful :-)
--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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alan_m
2021-09-14 10:57:02 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
No.
It could be a Sky Q LNB requiring 2 cables which may not be compatible
with Freesat boxes.
It may be two cables from a twin or quad universal LNB is which case
both will work with Freesat.
I have a Enigma2 box with a quad universal LNB and I can either receive
Freesat or Sky Free to Air channels. It's the same cluster of satellites
and the same signals.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 14:22:17 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
No.
It could be a Sky Q LNB requiring 2 cables which may not be compatible
with Freesat boxes.
I've read that some Sky Q LNBs auto detect (perhaps based on the
presence of a 22kHz tone ?) and will switch from 'Wideband' to
'Universal' mode for older boxes ?

I've got a 2+4 LNB, (2 Wideband and 4 Universal) but the Wideband LNBs
certainly don't switch down.

Of course, these new fangled Wideband LNBs are not unique to Sky Q
boxes, there's a Freesat box that uses them too I think ?
alan_m
2021-09-14 15:29:13 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Of course, these new fangled Wideband LNBs are not unique to Sky Q
boxes, there's a Freesat box that uses them too I think ?
At one time (and not to long ago) it was safe to assume that if you had
Sky that you could just buy a Freesat branded or another free to air box
and just plug it in to the existing downleads.

The problem that the OP has at the moment is that he doesn't know if the
installation was originally for older sky, freesat or sky Q. The latter
will require a box that supports the sky Q LNB (or a change in the LNB)
. Many other boxes not branded Sky or Freesat do support many different
LNBs but not necessarily a sky Q LNB, possibly the number that do
support a SkyQ lnb is closer to zero.. While Sky has gone down their
route with LNBs the rest of the industry appear to be supporting
Unicable LNBs where a single cable from the LNB can be connected to up
to 32 tuners either in 32 different receivers or in boxes that contain
multiple tuners (perhaps 16 tuners in the same box).
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
John Rumm
2021-09-14 16:30:21 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Post by Mark Carver
Of course, these new fangled Wideband LNBs are not unique to Sky Q
boxes, there's a Freesat box that uses them too I think ?
At one time (and not to long ago) it was safe to assume that if you had
Sky that you could just buy a Freesat branded or another free to air box
and just plug it in to the existing downleads.
The problem that the OP has at the moment is that he doesn't know if the
installation was originally for older sky, freesat or sky Q. The latter
will require a box that supports the sky Q LNB (or a change in the LNB)
.  Many other boxes not branded Sky or Freesat do support many different
LNBs but not necessarily a sky Q LNB, possibly the number that do
support a SkyQ lnb is closer to zero.. While Sky has gone down their
route with LNBs the rest of the industry appear to be supporting
Unicable LNBs where a single cable from the LNB can be connected to up
to 32 tuners either in 32 different receivers or in boxes that contain
multiple tuners (perhaps 16 tuners in the same box).
Yup fair point, well made! My answers were assuming old school.
--
Cheers,

John.

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tim...
2021-09-15 12:05:35 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Post by Bob Eager
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
No.
It could be a Sky Q LNB requiring 2 cables which may not be compatible
with Freesat boxes.
I understood Sky Q only used one cable

that how you know that two connectors isn't Sky Q
Andy Burns
2021-09-15 13:01:46 UTC
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Post by tim...
I understood Sky Q only used one cable
no, it uses a cable per polarisation, with high and low bands combined
on each cable
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 16:53:24 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
F connector.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever? Why would there be two cables?
Should be OK. My son moved into a flat with the same layout, although his
TV was satellite ready so no box needed.
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
No, both will do either. Freesat and sky use the same down converter.Sky
is juts encrypted, that's all.
--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 17:17:11 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Bob Eager
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
F connector.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
Should be OK. My son moved into a flat with the same layout, although his
TV was satellite ready so no box needed.
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
No, both will do either. Freesat and sky use the same down
converter.Sky is juts encrypted, that's all.
Not even that, the channels that are common to Sky and Freesat are
exactly the same transponder signals, unencrypted for both platforms.
alan_m
2021-09-14 17:50:08 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Not even that, the channels that are common to Sky and Freesat are
exactly the same transponder signals, unencrypted for both platforms.
Yes, Sky doesn't encrypt its free to air channels and there a a few more
channels on Sky free to air than Freesat. Freesat is basically the 7 day
electronic program guide (EPG) for the broadcasters who wish to pay for
it and is transmitted over the air (from the satellite). Sky free to air
channels also have a 7 day over the air EPG but you may have to jump
through a few extra hoops to get it and have a box/software capable of
doing so.

Rememmber Sky don't own any of the satellites - they just rent
facilities on them the same way as any other broadcaster who wishes to
use them.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Mark Carver
2021-09-14 18:02:23 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Post by Mark Carver
Not even that, the channels that are common to Sky and Freesat are
exactly the same transponder signals, unencrypted for both platforms.
Yes, Sky doesn't encrypt its free to air channels and there a a few
more channels on Sky free to air than Freesat. Freesat is basically
the 7 day electronic program guide (EPG) for the broadcasters who wish
to pay for it and is transmitted over the air (from the satellite).
Sky free to air channels also have a 7 day over the air EPG but you
may have to jump through a few extra hoops to get it and have a
box/software capable of doing so.
Rememmber Sky don't own any of the satellites - they just rent
facilities on them the same way as any other broadcaster who wishes to
use them.
Indeed. And they don't uplink the BBC or ITV, C4 etc either. All those
broadcasters make their own uplink arrangements for Astra. The BBC do it
in house at Wood Norton.

The only time their signals go anywhere near 'Sky property' is when they
enter a domestic Sky box !
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-15 07:38:41 UTC
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Post by Mark Carver
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Bob Eager
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
F connector.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
Should be OK. My son moved into a flat with the same layout, although his
TV was satellite ready so no box needed.
Two cables for two LNBs. One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
No, both will do either. Freesat and sky use the same down
converter.Sky is juts encrypted, that's all.
Not even that, the channels that are common to Sky and Freesat are
exactly the same transponder signals, unencrypted for both platforms.
Well obviously the sky free to air is unencrypted. You are making a
finer distinction than me - technically yes Freesat is a commercial
entity that supplies free satellite channels, as does sky - but most
people think of Freesat as 'the total fee to air satellite channels'
--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!
alan_m
2021-09-15 08:54:24 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well obviously the sky free to air is unencrypted. You are making a
finer distinction than me - technically yes Freesat is a commercial
entity that supplies free satellite channels, as does sky - but most
people think of Freesat as 'the total fee to air satellite channels'
I not sure that they do. Freesat has always been advertised as a fixed
group of channels with a 7 day EPG - roughly the same channels carried
on terrestrial via an aerial.

Buy a Freesat branded box box and the only channels with the 7 day EPG
will be the ones in the Freesat list. The box should be capable of
receiving another 200+ free to air channels on the satellite cluster but
only with a now/next EPG. There will not be a 7 day EPG for the unique
free to air channels from Sky.
--
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NY
2021-09-15 09:03:17 UTC
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Post by alan_m
Well obviously the sky free to air is unencrypted. You are making a finer
distinction than me - technically yes Freesat is a commercial entity that
supplies free satellite channels, as does sky - but most people think of
Freesat as 'the total fee to air satellite channels'
I not sure that they do. Freesat has always been advertised as a fixed
group of channels with a 7 day EPG - roughly the same channels carried on
terrestrial via an aerial.
Buy a Freesat branded box box and the only channels with the 7 day EPG
will be the ones in the Freesat list. The box should be capable of
receiving another 200+ free to air channels on the satellite cluster but
only with a now/next EPG. There will not be a 7 day EPG for the unique
free to air channels from Sky.
Something I've always wondered: given that the free-to-air channels are
identical data tables and streams for both Sky and Freesat, why do they have
different LCNs for the same channel? Is there some mechanism in the relevant
table to include *two* LCNs for each channel, with Sky using one and Freesat
using the other?
Mark Carver
2021-09-15 15:58:54 UTC
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Permalink
Post by NY
Something I've always wondered: given that the free-to-air channels
are identical data tables and streams for both Sky and Freesat, why do
they have different LCNs for the same channel? Is there some mechanism
in the relevant table to include *two* LCNs for each channel, with Sky
using one and Freesat using the other?
Yes, there is, and in fact when the Freesat platform was being built, 
Sky were very helpful tweaking their SI, and running tests, to make sure
it didn't clash with Freesat's so that both SIs could co exist in
parallel on the same transponders etc. Both are propriety systems
(beyond the DVB standard of 'Now and Next' data)
NY
2021-09-15 17:50:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by NY
Something I've always wondered: given that the free-to-air channels are
identical data tables and streams for both Sky and Freesat, why do they
have different LCNs for the same channel? Is there some mechanism in the
relevant table to include *two* LCNs for each channel, with Sky using one
and Freesat using the other?
Yes, there is, and in fact when the Freesat platform was being built, Sky
were very helpful tweaking their SI, and running tests, to make sure it
didn't clash with Freesat's so that both SIs could co exist in parallel on
the same transponders etc. Both are propriety systems (beyond the DVB
standard of 'Now and Next' data)
Was there any reason why Sky and Freesat couldn't use the *same* LCNs for
the same channels - except with all the Sky-specific channels missing from
the Freesat list.

Maybe (heaven forbid) they could have tried to use the same numbers as for
Freeview, where channels exist in all three platforms.

Or is there some weird commercial advantage in a given channel being known
by three different LCNs on Freeview, Freesat and Sky?

Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
2021-09-14 18:23:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
One will be FreeSat, the other is probably Sky.
Trial and error unless they've been labelled in some way.
No, there is no difference, both the same. The difference is that Sky's
ouput is encrypted.
alan_m
2021-09-14 10:51:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
That is not a low quality connector - it is a standard F connector used
in millions of homes

http://www.satcure.co.uk/tech/fplugs.htm
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
A lot of PVRs come with 2 tuners so that you can record and watch
different programs at the same time. My PVR allows recoding of maybe 8
programs at the same time whilst watching live TV (limited to certain
limitations).

Generally you cannot split a satellite signal in the same way as you can
for a signal from an aerial so one cable for each tuner. (A Unicable LNB
feed can be split but I doubt very much that is what is fitted to your
satellite dish).
A Sky Q LNB also requires two cables.

In your case it really depends on which LNB is fitted to your dish.
If it is a universal twin or quad LNB then just buy a box and plug it in.
If it's a Sky Q wideband LNB then possibly this will not work - but I
believe some Freesat PVR/STB may now support this type of LNB.

https://www.smartaerials.co.uk/blog/what-is-difference-between-a-sky-q-and-quad-universal-lnb
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
gareth evans
2021-09-14 13:58:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by alan_m
Generally you cannot split a satellite signal in the same way as you can
for a signal from an aerial so one cable for each tuner.
Caution needed here because the power for the LNB is provided by the
sat box, so splitting a cable will cause problems with wiring
two voltage sources together
Andy Burns
2021-09-14 11:04:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?
Pretty much, I don't know if there's any "new" freesat kit in the shops
that expects wideband LNBs like SkyQ does, but if so stay away unless
you want to replace the dish.
Why would there be two cables?
Either for one connection to TV and one connection to STB, or more
likely for connection to two tuners in STB (to watch one live, record
another) because you can't just "split" a single cable like you can with
TV aerial, the TV sends signals up the cable that control the LNB.
Pancho
2021-09-14 12:34:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
Check your TV, some TVs already take satellite input as standard, in
addition to a normal ariel. (LG TVs used to)
Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
2021-09-14 13:21:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax cables
appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors which use
the inner wire as a pin.
Those are f-plugs, they are not cheap and nasty, they are the standard
now. They are much better than Belling-Lee and are often now used on
normal TV coax cables, especially to amps and distribution systems.

Yes, you can just buy a FreeSat receiver and plug in, the two are to
enable two separate receivers to run simultaineously - watch one,
record another channel.
Clive Arthur
2021-09-14 14:16:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I know nothing of Freesat.
<snip>

Thanks all, that explains it.
--
Cheers
Clive
Steve Walker
2021-09-14 15:51:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I know nothing of Freesat.
Much like any other sat service - different EPG provider.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax
connectors which use the inner wire as a pin.
You mean F connectors? - cheap yes, but far from nasty, they actually do
the job they are designed for very well.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
To support a sat PVR with multiple tuners, so you can watch one program
and record another etc.
Sat boxes can't work in quite the same way as a terrestrial TV by just
splitting the output from the aerial to multiple receivers.
This is because the front end of the receiver is actually part of the
LNB[1] on the dish, and not built into the sat box itself. The LNB is an
active device that needs to be instructed by the receiver to select the
required band and polarisation. That in effect means each receiver needs
its "own"[2] LNB since it can't rely on the same settings being needed
for the currently selected combination of channels.
[1] Low Noise Block down converter - it does the first stage of tuning
and "steps down" the satellite downlink frequency into an "Intermediate
Frequency" range that it can send to the back end of the receiver
through co-ax (satellite downlink frequency is too high for transmission
through a co-ax for a useable distance). It also responds to a voltage
level on its output to select the polarisation, and the presence of a
22kHz tone to select "high" band.
[2] LNBs are sold in a number of different forms. They can typically
have between 1 and 8 actual converters built into one unit that mounts
on the arm of the dish. So one dish can support more than one receiver.
For systems with a large number of receivers you typically install a
multi-switch fed from a a "quatro" LNB. This is a 4 output device where
it presents all of the 4 possible combinations of band and polarisation
on a separate feed - without needing to be instructed by the sat box.
That way the switch only needs to respond to the controls from the
satellite box by patching it through to the LNB output that matches the
required settings.
Many multi-switches can also use standard quad or octo LNBs. Mine does,
as I changed from two receivers with UHF coax output to and remote
extenders in, each room, to individual pairs of satellite cables to each
room.
SH
2021-09-14 15:58:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
I know nothing of Freesat.
Much like any other sat service - different EPG provider.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax
connectors which use the inner wire as a pin.
You mean F connectors? - cheap yes, but far from nasty, they actually
do the job they are designed for very well.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the
TV with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
To support a sat PVR with multiple tuners, so you can watch one
program and record another etc.
Sat boxes can't work in quite the same way as a terrestrial TV by just
splitting the output from the aerial to multiple receivers.
This is because the front end of the receiver is actually part of the
LNB[1] on the dish, and not built into the sat box itself. The LNB is
an active device that needs to be instructed by the receiver to select
the required band and polarisation. That in effect means each receiver
needs its "own"[2] LNB since it can't rely on the same settings being
needed for the currently selected combination of channels.
[1] Low Noise Block down converter - it does the first stage of tuning
and "steps down" the satellite downlink frequency into an
"Intermediate Frequency" range that it can send to the back end of the
receiver through co-ax (satellite downlink frequency is too high for
transmission through a co-ax for a useable distance). It also responds
to a voltage level on its output to select the polarisation, and the
presence of a 22kHz tone to select "high" band.
[2] LNBs are sold in a number of different forms. They can typically
have between 1 and 8 actual converters built into one unit that mounts
on the arm of the dish. So one dish can support more than one
receiver. For systems with a large number of receivers you typically
install a multi-switch fed from a a "quatro" LNB. This is a 4 output
device where it presents all of the 4 possible combinations of band
and polarisation on a separate feed - without needing to be instructed
by the sat box. That way the switch only needs to respond to the
controls from the satellite box by patching it through to the LNB
output that matches the required settings.
Many multi-switches can also use standard quad or octo LNBs. Mine does,
as I changed from two receivers with UHF coax output to and remote
extenders in, each room, to individual pairs of satellite cables to each
room.
I have 2 off 5 x 16 multswitches that feed FM, DAB, 10 CCTV channels,
Freeview (from Oxford, Snday Heath, Waltham, Sutton Coldifield combined
via a TMB 2000) and Freesat to 32 triplex sockets around the house.

I also have 2 off 17 x 16 multiswitches that take Astra 1, Hotbird,
Hispasat and Eutelsat 5W and again feeds it to 32 satellite points
aropund the house.

I also have FTTP fed to 47 ethernet sockets via a Netgear GS748T switch
for IP TV and Catch up players.
Sn!pe
2021-09-14 16:04:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I know nothing of Freesat. [...]
Neither do I, but I would like to know more.
Is there a good "Idiots Guide To Satellite TV"?
Other than this highly esteemed group, obvs.

[xpost: uk.d-i-y; uk.tech.digital-tv]
--
^Ï^


My pet rock Gordon just is.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 16:59:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
I know nothing of Freesat. [...]
Neither do I, but I would like to know more.
Is there a good "Idiots Guide To Satellite TV"?
Other than this highly esteemed group, obvs.
[xpost: uk.d-i-y; uk.tech.digital-tv]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-noise_block_downconverter

is a very good explanation.

showing what control voltages are fed to the units to get particular
bands or polarisations.

And that is why you have more than one LNB - its not per se between sky
and freesat, it's between different frequencies and polarisations.

The set top box or PC dongle - or TV - will cycle round all of those to
scan for available channels.

If you have paid for sky, it will also decrypt any channels that match
your key.
--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson
Sn!pe
2021-09-14 17:33:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
I know nothing of Freesat. [...]
Neither do I, but I would like to know more.
Is there a good "Idiots Guide To Satellite TV"?
Other than this highly esteemed group, obvs.
[xpost: uk.d-i-y; uk.tech.digital-tv]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-noise_block_downconverter>
is a very good explanation.
showing what control voltages are fed to the units to get particular
bands or polarisations.
And that is why you have more than one LNB - its not per se between sky
and freesat, it's between different frequencies and polarisations.
The set top box or PC dongle - or TV - will cycle round all of those to
scan for available channels.
If you have paid for sky, it will also decrypt any channels that match
your key.
Thank you.
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 16:52:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
A satellite dish comes equipped with one to four 'LNB's' = Low Noise
Block down converter, powered down the coaxial line by whatever is
plugged into it...

"The LNB is a combination of low-noise amplifier, frequency mixer, local
oscillator and intermediate frequency (IF) amplifier. It serves as the
RF front end of the satellite receiver, receiving the microwave signal
from the satellite collected by the dish, amplifying it, and
downconverting the block of frequencies to a lower block of intermediate
frequencies (IF). This downconversion allows the signal to be carried to
the indoor satellite TV receiver using relatively cheap coaxial cable;
if the signal remained at its original microwave frequency it would
require an expensive and impractical waveguide line."

(wiki)

They will not be using a cheap and nasty coax but the threaded sort.

So with satellite you can share the dish, between sets, but not the LNB
or the cable.

In practice you simply plug your STB into the telly, the mains and the
LNB, using the appropriate cables, and that's that. Freesat will be there.
--
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker
Robert
2021-09-14 17:15:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax
connectors which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
A satellite dish comes equipped with one to four 'LNB's' = Low Noise
Block down converter, powered down the coaxial line by whatever is
plugged into it...
"The LNB is a combination of low-noise amplifier, frequency mixer, local
oscillator and intermediate frequency (IF) amplifier. It serves as the
RF front end of the satellite receiver, receiving the microwave signal
from the satellite collected by the dish, amplifying it, and
downconverting the block of frequencies to a lower block of intermediate
frequencies (IF). This downconversion allows the signal to be carried to
the indoor satellite TV receiver using relatively cheap coaxial cable;
if the signal remained at its original microwave frequency it would
require an expensive and impractical waveguide line."
(wiki)
They will not be using a cheap and nasty coax but the threaded sort.
So with satellite you can share the dish, between sets, but not the LNB
or the cable.
In practice you simply plug your STB into the telly, the mains and the
LNB, using the appropriate cables, and that's that. Freesat will be there.
+1
And Sky Q is different .....
alan_m
2021-09-14 17:55:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert
Post by The Natural Philosopher
In practice you simply plug your STB into the telly, the mains and the
LNB, using the appropriate cables, and that's that. Freesat will be there.
+1
And Sky Q is different .....
because they use a newer technology for their LNBs which outwardly works
differently to that from a a universal LNB and which is mainly only
supported by Sky Q branded boxes.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
alan_m
2021-09-14 17:32:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
So with satellite you can share the dish, between sets, but not the LNB
or the cable.
Technology has moved on quite a lot.

You could always share the dish and LNB with an intermediate switch but
these days if you go for the latest technology you can now do away with
a separate switch and distribute the signal to multiple receivers all
from a single cable from the LNB (using splitters). However there is
99.99% chance that the OP does not have this technology installed by the
previous occupant of the house.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
In practice you simply plug your STB into the telly, the mains and the
LNB, using the appropriate cables, and that's that. Freesat will be there.
Not if the LNB is a more recent Sky Q model unless the STB/PVR supports
a Sky Q LNB.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Robert
2021-09-14 17:12:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?
Yes
Or obtain an old Sky box
( preferably not a plus + one and find a SKY HD one if you want the HDMI
output) for next to nothing just ask around. (Freegle or Freecycle)
The Natural Philosopher
2021-09-14 17:32:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?
Yes
Or obtain  an old Sky box
( preferably not a plus + one and find a SKY HD one if you want the HDMI
output) for next to nothing just ask around. (Freegle or Freecycle)
Or buy a satellite dongle for your PĊ and forget the TVs. Wont work for
subscription TV tho - no PC cards I found take the decryption card
--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2021-09-14 17:21:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax connectors
which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
nothing wrong with a connector with the coax inner as the pin ....
alan_m
2021-09-14 17:56:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax
connectors which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the TV
with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
nothing wrong with a connector with the coax inner as the pin ....
And a connector that screws in.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Jim GM4DHJ ...
2021-09-14 18:25:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by alan_m
Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
I know nothing of Freesat.
A house we're buying has a dish, and in one room there are two coax
cables appearing through the wall with those nasty cheap coax
connectors which use the inner wire as a pin.
I'm not there at the moment, so can't investigate further.
Do I just buy a Freesat box, connect the coax and plug it in to the
TV with HDMI or whatever?  Why would there be two cables?
nothing wrong with a connector with the coax inner as the pin ....
And a connector that screws in.
indeed
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