Discussion:
Poking tools
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Theo
2021-01-08 12:50:19 UTC
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I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.

Are there tools that would be useful for this?
It really wants things that can not only push (or pull the far end or a
loose thing), but also disengage when the
insulation is in position.


So far I've come up with:

Cable rods, eg:
https://www.toolstation.com/hand-tools/cable-rods/c1152
- I'm not sure whether these are going to bend if they meet any obstacles?

Drain rods
- similarly, only perhaps more robust?

Fire irons
- good in compression, strong and long, but usually rather chunky (cast iron
etc)

Litter grabbing tool
- might do it, although many are quite fat?


Any suggestions what else might do this job?

Thanks
Theo
John Rumm
2021-01-08 13:10:21 UTC
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Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
Are there tools that would be useful for this?
It really wants things that can not only push (or pull the far end or a
loose thing), but also disengage when the
insulation is in position.
https://www.toolstation.com/hand-tools/cable-rods/c1152
- I'm not sure whether these are going to bend if they meet any obstacles?
Cable rods are awesome! But not that good at pushing stuff - far too
flimsy. They are just about strong enough to push themselves - but
really come into their own when pulling something else after they have
been pushed into place.
Post by Theo
Drain rods
- similarly, only perhaps more robust?
Yup - significantly stiffer - and may times the diameter.
Post by Theo
Fire irons
- good in compression, strong and long, but usually rather chunky (cast iron
etc)
Litter grabbing tool
- might do it, although many are quite fat?
Any suggestions what else might do this job?
PIR board can be tapped into place with a load spreading timber and a
hammer. Other types are not easy to force into tight spaces unless you
can open them up for the purpose IME.
--
Cheers,

John.

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RJH
2021-01-08 17:05:09 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
Are there tools that would be useful for this?
It really wants things that can not only push (or pull the far end or a
loose thing), but also disengage when the
insulation is in position.
https://www.toolstation.com/hand-tools/cable-rods/c1152
- I'm not sure whether these are going to bend if they meet any obstacles?
Cable rods are awesome! But not that good at pushing stuff - far too
flimsy. They are just about strong enough to push themselves - but
really come into their own when pulling something else after they have
been pushed into place.
I've used the fibre glass bendy-elastic-connected tent poles from my dome tent
several times to route things - they look similar. For a fraction of the price
plus a free tent :-)
--
Cheers, Rob
Tim Lamb
2021-01-08 17:42:23 UTC
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In message <rta3c5$tn6$***@gioia.aioe.org>, RJH <***@gmx.com>
writes
Post by RJH
Post by John Rumm
Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
Are there tools that would be useful for this?
It really wants things that can not only push (or pull the far end or a
loose thing), but also disengage when the
insulation is in position.
https://www.toolstation.com/hand-tools/cable-rods/c1152
- I'm not sure whether these are going to bend if they meet any obstacles?
Cable rods are awesome! But not that good at pushing stuff - far too
flimsy. They are just about strong enough to push themselves - but
really come into their own when pulling something else after they have
been pushed into place.
I've used the fibre glass bendy-elastic-connected tent poles from my dome tent
several times to route things - they look similar. For a fraction of the price
plus a free tent :-)
How about a litter picker?
--
Tim Lamb
Andrew
2021-01-08 13:11:32 UTC
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Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
PIR, even an inch thick is very rigid though. You would have to
impose quite considerable force to damage it when pushing a section
along its long edge. Whether you can install it snugly clamped to the
warm side through this aperature is another matter.

There is always expanding foam.

A photo would help. Is this a bus, van or canal boat ?.

Andrew
Post by Theo
Are there tools that would be useful for this?
It really wants things that can not only push (or pull the far end or a
loose thing), but also disengage when the
insulation is in position.
Any suggestions what else might do this job?
Thanks
Theo
Theo
2021-01-08 13:49:58 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
PIR, even an inch thick is very rigid though. You would have to
impose quite considerable force to damage it when pushing a section
along its long edge. Whether you can install it snugly clamped to the
warm side through this aperature is another matter.
There is always expanding foam.
A photo would help. Is this a bus, van or canal boat ?.
It's a house. There are some bits of plasterboard-faced rafter that I can
get access to the bottom end of, but not the flat surface (without much
disturbance of ceiling). Think roughly a pillar box with a 120mm tall slot.
One of them has a (structural? very solidly nailed anyway) noggin across it
such that there's only about a 20-25mm gap. The bottom surface is the back
of the ceiling plasterboard and the top surface tar-based sarking (+sarking
boards). The depth of the recess to fill is about 1-1.5m.

I can ram in fibreglass to the 120mm gap, but I'd like to put something with
foil. PIR would be fine (it's rigid enough) but to get an interference fit
requires a lot of force and it would probably buckle. I could fit it loose
and then foam, but that would be impossible to remove if it went wrong or
needed access in future. I could just fit bare foil (probably that foiled
bubble wrap stuff) and ram in fibreglass on top I suppose.

For the noggin one the options are very limited. I was thinking of
'posting' multifoil through the gap and leaving it to sit there. Hence
wanted something to manipulate through the tiny gap.

Theo
John Rumm
2021-01-08 15:07:30 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by Andrew
Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
PIR, even an inch thick is very rigid though. You would have to
impose quite considerable force to damage it when pushing a section
along its long edge. Whether you can install it snugly clamped to the
warm side through this aperature is another matter.
There is always expanding foam.
A photo would help. Is this a bus, van or canal boat ?.
It's a house. There are some bits of plasterboard-faced rafter that I can
get access to the bottom end of, but not the flat surface (without much
disturbance of ceiling). Think roughly a pillar box with a 120mm tall slot.
One of them has a (structural? very solidly nailed anyway) noggin across it
such that there's only about a 20-25mm gap. The bottom surface is the back
of the ceiling plasterboard and the top surface tar-based sarking (+sarking
boards). The depth of the recess to fill is about 1-1.5m.
I can ram in fibreglass to the 120mm gap, but I'd like to put something with
foil. PIR would be fine (it's rigid enough) but to get an interference fit
requires a lot of force and it would probably buckle. I could fit it loose
and then foam, but that would be impossible to remove if it went wrong or
needed access in future. I could just fit bare foil (probably that foiled
bubble wrap stuff) and ram in fibreglass on top I suppose.
For the noggin one the options are very limited. I was thinking of
'posting' multifoil through the gap and leaving it to sit there. Hence
wanted something to manipulate through the tiny gap.
How about a blown fibre or polystyrene bead solution that you can pump
into the space?
--
Cheers,

John.

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Andrew
2021-01-08 15:34:50 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by Andrew
Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture.  Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its
rigidity
under compression.  I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
PIR, even an inch thick is very rigid though. You would have to
impose quite considerable force to damage it when pushing a section
along its long edge. Whether you can install it snugly clamped to the
warm side through this aperature is another matter.
There is always expanding foam.
A photo would help. Is this a bus, van or canal boat ?.
It's a house.  There are some bits of plasterboard-faced rafter that I
can
get access to the bottom end of, but not the flat surface (without much
disturbance of ceiling).  Think roughly a pillar box with a 120mm tall
slot.
One of them has a (structural?  very solidly nailed anyway) noggin
across it
such that there's only about a 20-25mm gap.  The bottom surface is the
back
of the ceiling plasterboard and the top surface tar-based sarking (+sarking
boards).  The depth of the recess to fill is about 1-1.5m.
I can ram in fibreglass to the 120mm gap, but I'd like to put
something with
foil.  PIR would be fine (it's rigid enough) but to get an
interference fit
requires a lot of force and it would probably buckle.  I could fit it
loose
and then foam, but that would be impossible to remove if it went wrong or
needed access in future.  I could just fit bare foil (probably that
foiled
bubble wrap stuff) and ram in fibreglass on top I suppose.
For the noggin one the options are very limited.  I was thinking of
'posting' multifoil through the gap and leaving it to sit there.  Hence
wanted something to manipulate through the tiny gap.
How about a blown fibre or polystyrene bead solution that you can pump
into the space?
My cousins hubby packed rockwool into the 'eaves' of their link detached
house, where there was a valley on top of the party wall connecting to
next property. The other side of the roof has a proper overhanging
soffit with vents, but the valley side had no ventilation and was where
the bathroom was. Over the years moisture vapour from the bathroom
(electric shower) permeated the loft above and saturated this rockwool
in contact with the wall plate and the ends of the roof trusses and
caused significant wet rot issues. So be careful where you 'stuff'
insulation without carefully considering ventilation, especially this
situation where there is very restricted access.
Tricky Dicky
2021-01-08 16:04:45 UTC
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Post by Andrew
Post by John Rumm
Post by Andrew
Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its
rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
PIR, even an inch thick is very rigid though. You would have to
impose quite considerable force to damage it when pushing a section
along its long edge. Whether you can install it snugly clamped to the
warm side through this aperature is another matter.
There is always expanding foam.
A photo would help. Is this a bus, van or canal boat ?.
It's a house. There are some bits of plasterboard-faced rafter that I
can
get access to the bottom end of, but not the flat surface (without much
disturbance of ceiling). Think roughly a pillar box with a 120mm tall
slot.
One of them has a (structural? very solidly nailed anyway) noggin
across it
such that there's only about a 20-25mm gap. The bottom surface is the
back
of the ceiling plasterboard and the top surface tar-based sarking (+sarking
boards). The depth of the recess to fill is about 1-1.5m.
I can ram in fibreglass to the 120mm gap, but I'd like to put something with
foil. PIR would be fine (it's rigid enough) but to get an
interference fit
requires a lot of force and it would probably buckle. I could fit it
loose
and then foam, but that would be impossible to remove if it went wrong or
needed access in future. I could just fit bare foil (probably that
foiled
bubble wrap stuff) and ram in fibreglass on top I suppose.
For the noggin one the options are very limited. I was thinking of
'posting' multifoil through the gap and leaving it to sit there. Hence
wanted something to manipulate through the tiny gap.
How about a blown fibre or polystyrene bead solution that you can pump
into the space?
My cousins hubby packed rockwool into the 'eaves' of their link detached
house, where there was a valley on top of the party wall connecting to
next property. The other side of the roof has a proper overhanging
soffit with vents, but the valley side had no ventilation and was where
the bathroom was. Over the years moisture vapour from the bathroom
(electric shower) permeated the loft above and saturated this rockwool
in contact with the wall plate and the ends of the roof trusses and
caused significant wet rot issues. So be careful where you 'stuff'
insulation without carefully considering ventilation, especially this
situation where there is very restricted access.
Got to agree with Andrew never push insulation right up to the eaves and up to the sarking this will block vital ventilation. If needs be stagger the insulation if for instance putting in 270mm of rock wool put a 100mm layer as far as it will go and still leave a gap between rafters then add the 170mm layer finishing shorter than the first layer so you can still see a clear gap. You can get eaves ventilators that fit between rafters and maintain the ventilation gap but these are best fitted when constructing the roof.

Richard
Tim Lamb
2021-01-08 16:24:47 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by Theo
Post by Andrew
Post by Theo
I have some insulation to push into some awkward spaces, including through
a narrow (~1") aperture. Insulation (even PIR) is not known for its rigidity
under compression. I'm probably looking at multifoil or thin PIR, with
stuffing in fibreglass as a backup plan.
PIR, even an inch thick is very rigid though. You would have to
impose quite considerable force to damage it when pushing a section
along its long edge. Whether you can install it snugly clamped to the
warm side through this aperature is another matter.
There is always expanding foam.
A photo would help. Is this a bus, van or canal boat ?.
It's a house. There are some bits of plasterboard-faced rafter that I can
get access to the bottom end of, but not the flat surface (without much
disturbance of ceiling). Think roughly a pillar box with a 120mm tall slot.
One of them has a (structural? very solidly nailed anyway) noggin across it
such that there's only about a 20-25mm gap. The bottom surface is the back
of the ceiling plasterboard and the top surface tar-based sarking (+sarking
boards). The depth of the recess to fill is about 1-1.5m.
I can ram in fibreglass to the 120mm gap, but I'd like to put something with
foil. PIR would be fine (it's rigid enough) but to get an interference fit
requires a lot of force and it would probably buckle. I could fit it loose
and then foam, but that would be impossible to remove if it went wrong or
needed access in future. I could just fit bare foil (probably that foiled
bubble wrap stuff) and ram in fibreglass on top I suppose.
For the noggin one the options are very limited. I was thinking of
'posting' multifoil through the gap and leaving it to sit there. Hence
wanted something to manipulate through the tiny gap.
How about a blown fibre or polystyrene bead solution that you can pump
into the space?
How about sandwiching some Rockwool between two sliding fit sheets of
plywood, fitting between the rafters and pulling them out one at a time?
--
Tim Lamb
Theo
2021-01-08 17:42:28 UTC
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Post by Tim Lamb
How about sandwiching some Rockwool between two sliding fit sheets of
plywood, fitting between the rafters and pulling them out one at a time?
Hmm, that's a thought. (or any other kind of non-pushable stuff between
pushable layers, like multifoil between rigid plastic sheets.)

I've been doing a bit of experimentation. It turns out that a drain rod
with a rubber disc on the end was an acceptable tool for pulling out wads of
fibreglass. I might investigate getting other drain rod fittings to make
this a bit easier - perhaps the corkscrew kind.

And 50mm celotex has enough rigidity that I can push in 1.2m lengths without
it wobbling around. I've done a few and it's a decent interference fit -
will need a hammer to tap them into final position but otherwise good.

For the tricky bit, here's a picture:
https://ibb.co/SQLmsmw
The torch beam shows where I want to get the insulation in.
However now I look at it, I realise this is the side of the dormer (edge
just about visible through the hatch on the left). There is obviously this
gap, but I need to do some more (thermal) pictures to work out whether it's
all accessible or whether there's more noggins further up that would block
insertion.

On the moisture front, I did find a patch of damp insulation, which is
directly above the light switch for the toilet. It may be that warm air is
leaking through the holes for the wiring and condensing on the fibreglass.
I'll have to try and seal the hole. Celotexing this bay may be tricky due
to the screw protrusions. Are there any plasterboard fixings that don't
protrude much into the cavity? Something a bit like a rivet that surrounds
the hole, perhaps?

Thanks
Theo
Andrew
2021-01-09 11:59:26 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by Tim Lamb
How about sandwiching some Rockwool between two sliding fit sheets of
plywood, fitting between the rafters and pulling them out one at a time?
Hmm, that's a thought. (or any other kind of non-pushable stuff between
pushable layers, like multifoil between rigid plastic sheets.)
I've been doing a bit of experimentation. It turns out that a drain rod
with a rubber disc on the end was an acceptable tool for pulling out wads of
fibreglass. I might investigate getting other drain rod fittings to make
this a bit easier - perhaps the corkscrew kind.
And 50mm celotex has enough rigidity that I can push in 1.2m lengths without
it wobbling around. I've done a few and it's a decent interference fit -
will need a hammer to tap them into final position but otherwise good.
https://ibb.co/SQLmsmw
The torch beam shows where I want to get the insulation in.
There is an easy solution. Simply saw through and remove that noggin.
It is not structural and can be replaced an inch or so towards the
sarking felt without impeding airflow. Once it is removed/replaced
you have more room to get PIR and rockwool into place without touching
the sarking felt.

You can always replace the noggin with the same dimensions but fitted
long side horizontally if needed, or you can simply fit a galvanised
strap bar under the rafters joining them together. This will allow
plasterboard to be overlaid easily. You can remove a small amount
of wood from the underside of thos rafters to allow the strap to
sit flush with the underside of the rafter if you want.

There is a dark mark below the torch beam, to the right of the
door? frame. Has water leaked in there somehow ?.
Jimmy Stewart
2021-01-09 14:38:35 UTC
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Post by Andrew
There is an easy solution. Simply saw through and remove that noggin.
dwang for those on the near of Scotland.....
John Rumm
2021-01-09 17:13:42 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Tim Lamb
How about sandwiching some Rockwool between two sliding fit sheets of
plywood, fitting between the rafters and pulling them out one at a time?
Hmm, that's a thought.  (or any other kind of non-pushable stuff between
pushable layers, like multifoil between rigid plastic sheets.)
I've been doing a bit of experimentation.  It turns out that a drain rod
with a rubber disc on the end was an acceptable tool for pulling out wads of
fibreglass.  I might investigate getting other drain rod fittings to make
this a bit easier - perhaps the corkscrew kind.
And 50mm celotex has enough rigidity that I can push in 1.2m lengths without
it wobbling around.  I've done a few and it's a decent interference fit -
will need a hammer to tap them into final position but otherwise good.
https://ibb.co/SQLmsmw
The torch beam shows where I want to get the insulation in.
There is an easy solution. Simply saw through and remove that noggin.
Yup... although its got a couple of 4" nails in each end by the looks of
it - so saw it in the middle and then hammer it out of the way so that
the halves pull off the nails (which can then be tapped out once you
have access to the pointy end.
--
Cheers,

John.

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\=================================================================/
Theo
2021-01-12 23:26:56 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by Andrew
There is an easy solution. Simply saw through and remove that noggin.
Yup... although its got a couple of 4" nails in each end by the looks of
it - so saw it in the middle and then hammer it out of the way so that
the halves pull off the nails (which can then be tapped out once you
have access to the pointy end.
It's not that simple: the noggin is supporting a rafter which has been cut and
moved laterally:
https://ibb.co/s90mRML
- so it is structural, and cutting the noggin would leave the upper part of
the rafter unsupported.

Shoving a camera up there shows there's a few wisps of fibreglass but it's
mostly empty:
https://ibb.co/fpjSdd9
apart from a resident that is:
https://ibb.co/TK3JZF3

Theo
Andrew
2021-01-13 14:58:36 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by John Rumm
Post by Andrew
There is an easy solution. Simply saw through and remove that noggin.
Yup... although its got a couple of 4" nails in each end by the looks of
it - so saw it in the middle and then hammer it out of the way so that
the halves pull off the nails (which can then be tapped out once you
have access to the pointy end.
It's not that simple: the noggin is supporting a rafter which has been cut and
https://ibb.co/s90mRML
- so it is structural, and cutting the noggin would leave the upper part of
the rafter unsupported.
It seems to be supported by the door frame which is providing more
support than the noggin, provided the top rail of the frame is
well fixed.

One end of a horizontal noggin provides almost resistance to a downwards
acting force (of the roof). The fact that it has not deflected seems to
suggest that it is only providing lateral resistance to warping of the
rafters.
John Rumm
2021-01-14 01:12:00 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Theo
Post by John Rumm
Post by Andrew
There is an easy solution. Simply saw through and remove that noggin.
Yup... although its got a couple of 4" nails in each end by the looks of
it - so saw it in the middle and then hammer it out of the way so that
the halves pull off the nails (which can then be tapped out once you
have access to the pointy end.
It's not that simple: the noggin is supporting a rafter which has been cut and
https://ibb.co/s90mRML
- so it is structural, and cutting the noggin would leave the upper part of
the rafter unsupported.
I can't really tell what is going on from that photo. However if you
are concerned that its there for a particular reason - then fix another
*under* the rafters before you take out the existing one. That way it
remains restrained/supported etc, but you also open up a straight line
of sight into the space.
--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm
2021-01-09 17:10:15 UTC
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Post by Theo
to the screw protrusions. Are there any plasterboard fixings that don't
protrude much into the cavity? Something a bit like a rivet that surrounds
the hole, perhaps?
Hollow wall anchors that are set with a setting tool, resemble this. You
can also cut down the bolt to be "just long enough" when fixing to them.
--
Cheers,

John.

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Theo
2021-01-10 11:43:25 UTC
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Post by John Rumm
Post by Theo
to the screw protrusions. Are there any plasterboard fixings that don't
protrude much into the cavity? Something a bit like a rivet that surrounds
the hole, perhaps?
Hollow wall anchors that are set with a setting tool, resemble this. You
can also cut down the bolt to be "just long enough" when fixing to them.
Interesting, thanks.

I now realise: since I have access to the back side, I can bolt through
from the cavity side. The bolt heads won't protrude as much as a screw or
cavity fixing would. If I glue them in place they shouldn't fall out when I
screw things onto them.

Theo
John Rumm
2021-01-10 13:47:43 UTC
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Post by Theo
Post by John Rumm
Post by Theo
to the screw protrusions. Are there any plasterboard fixings that don't
protrude much into the cavity? Something a bit like a rivet that surrounds
the hole, perhaps?
Hollow wall anchors that are set with a setting tool, resemble this. You
can also cut down the bolt to be "just long enough" when fixing to them.
Interesting, thanks.
I now realise: since I have access to the back side, I can bolt through
from the cavity side. The bolt heads won't protrude as much as a screw or
cavity fixing would. If I glue them in place they shouldn't fall out when I
screw things onto them.
Yup that would work - especially if you can include washer under the
screw head to spread the load a bit.
--
Cheers,

John.

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