flueless gas fire

[Stephen]

Hello,

I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.

Thanks,
Stephen.

[harryagain]

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.
Thanks,
Stephen.

The flame is yellow because of glowing carbon particles.
This is an indication that carbon monoxide may be being made.
It happens by a "reduction" process.
CO2 (carbon dioxide) passes through the hot carbon particles and is reduced
to CO.
Sometimes it gets burnt back to CO2 later in the process but it may be
escaping into the room.
Do not use until it has been serviced.

The gas fires with a coal/wood yellow flame effect have massive amounts of
extra air introduced "above" the flame to ensure CO is converted to CO2.
Hence they are very inefficient.


You don't say which you have got.
Definitely get a CO alarm.
All gas fires are very inefficient by todays standards.

[Tim+]

Post by harryagain

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.
Thanks,
Stephen.

The flame is yellow because of glowing carbon particles.
This is an indication that carbon monoxide may be being made.
It happens by a "reduction" process.
CO2 (carbon dioxide) passes through the hot carbon particles and is reduced
to CO.
Sometimes it gets burnt back to CO2 later in the process but it may be
escaping into the room.
Do not use until it has been serviced.
The gas fires with a coal/wood yellow flame effect have massive amounts of
extra air introduced "above" the flame to ensure CO is converted to CO2.
Hence they are very inefficient.
You don't say which you have got.
Definitely get a CO alarm.
All gas fires are very inefficient by todays standards.

Mostly bollocks (with regard to flueless appliances).

Have a look at
http://www.fireplaceadvisor.co.uk/site/flueless-gas-fires-pros-and-cons/

Tim

[newshound]

Post by harryagain
You don't say which you have got.
Definitely get a CO alarm.
All gas fires are very inefficient by todays standards.

Actually it is near enough 100% efficient, provided it isn't producing
significant CO or soot (which you will soon notice).

CO monitor would be a good idea.

[Chris Hogg]

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 10:45:23 +0100, newshound

Post by newshound

Post by harryagain
You don't say which you have got.
Definitely get a CO alarm.
All gas fires are very inefficient by todays standards.

Actually it is near enough 100% efficient, provided it isn't producing
significant CO or soot (which you will soon notice).
CO monitor would be a good idea.

Even if it's not producing CO, it will put a lot of water vapour into
the atmosphere in the house, possibly leading to condensation,
streaming windows and mould problems.

[Fredxxx]

Post by Chris Hogg
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 10:45:23 +0100, newshound

Post by newshound

Post by harryagain
You don't say which you have got.
Definitely get a CO alarm.
All gas fires are very inefficient by todays standards.

Actually it is near enough 100% efficient, provided it isn't producing
significant CO or soot (which you will soon notice).
CO monitor would be a good idea.

Even if it's not producing CO, it will put a lot of water vapour into
the atmosphere in the house, possibly leading to condensation,
streaming windows and mould problems.

That was my thought as well, and burning natural gas produces more water
than other fuels.

[Brian Gaff]

So what is the process for forming water then. it obviously cannot be that
efficient if a good deal of the energy goes to make H2O after all. I was
thinking of getting a gas bottle heater in case of power cuts as I'm all
electric here.
Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

Post by Fredxxx

Post by Chris Hogg
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 10:45:23 +0100, newshound

Post by newshound

Post by harryagain
You don't say which you have got.
Definitely get a CO alarm.
All gas fires are very inefficient by todays standards.

Actually it is near enough 100% efficient, provided it isn't producing
significant CO or soot (which you will soon notice).
CO monitor would be a good idea.

Even if it's not producing CO, it will put a lot of water vapour into
the atmosphere in the house, possibly leading to condensation,
streaming windows and mould problems.

That was my thought as well, and burning natural gas produces more water
than other fuels.

[Chris Hogg]

On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:06:12 +0100, "Brian Gaff"

Post by Brian Gaff
So what is the process for forming water then. it obviously cannot be that
efficient if a good deal of the energy goes to make H2O after all. I was
thinking of getting a gas bottle heater in case of power cuts as I'm all
electric here.
Brian

Gas burns in air to give carbon dioxide and water and heat. Natural
gas is mostly methane, CH4. If the carbon in the gas wasn't combusted
to carbon dioxide, or the hydrogen in the gas wasn't combusted to
water, less heat would be evolved. Energy is not used in making the
water, it is produced by making it.

CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O + heat

[John Williamson]

Post by Chris Hogg
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:06:12 +0100, "Brian Gaff"

Post by Brian Gaff
So what is the process for forming water then. it obviously cannot be that
efficient if a good deal of the energy goes to make H2O after all. I was
thinking of getting a gas bottle heater in case of power cuts as I'm all
electric here.
Brian

Gas burns in air to give carbon dioxide and water and heat. Natural
gas is mostly methane, CH4. If the carbon in the gas wasn't combusted
to carbon dioxide, or the hydrogen in the gas wasn't combusted to
water, less heat would be evolved. Energy is not used in making the
water, it is produced by making it.
CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O + heat

And as the water is produced as a gas, extra heat can be recovered by
cooling it to the liquid phase, as is done by condensing boilers.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Chris Hogg
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:06:12 +0100, "Brian Gaff"

Post by Brian Gaff
So what is the process for forming water then. it obviously cannot be that
efficient if a good deal of the energy goes to make H2O after all. I was
thinking of getting a gas bottle heater in case of power cuts as I'm all
electric here.
Brian

Gas burns in air to give carbon dioxide and water and heat. Natural
gas is mostly methane, CH4. If the carbon in the gas wasn't combusted
to carbon dioxide, or the hydrogen in the gas wasn't combusted to
water, less heat would be evolved. Energy is not used in making the
water, it is produced by making it.
CH4 + 2O2 -> CO2 + 2H2O + heat

And as the water is produced as a gas, extra heat can be recovered by
cooling it to the liquid phase, as is done by condensing boilers.

and it happens with a flueless heater when the water condenses out
on the windows ;-)

[Dave]

replying to Brian Gaff, Dave wrote:
I know its an old post, but saw this as I was browsing.
Complete combustion of a molecule of CH4 (gas) + 2 O2 (Amount of oxygen needed
in air) = CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) + 2 H20 (water). Incomplete combustion is a
reduction of oxygen on the first side of equation, which then has less to
transfer to the other side, producing CO (carbon monoxide), instead of CO2.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/flueless-gas-fire-967052-.htm

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

Post by Dave
I know its an old post, but saw this as I was browsing.
Complete combustion of a molecule of CH4 (gas) + 2 O2 (Amount of oxygen needed
in air) = CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) + 2 H20 (water). Incomplete combustion is a
reduction of oxygen on the first side of equation, which then has less to
transfer to the other side, producing CO (carbon monoxide), instead of CO2.

I love my flueless gas fire ......almost 100% efficient ......

[Max Demian]

Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...

Post by Dave
I know its an old post, but saw this as I was browsing.
Complete combustion of a molecule of CH4 (gas) + 2 O2 (Amount of oxygen needed
in air) = CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) + 2 H20 (water). Incomplete combustion is a
reduction of oxygen on the first side of equation, which then has less to
transfer to the other side, producing CO (carbon monoxide), instead of CO2.

I love my flueless gas fire ......almost 100% efficient ......

Except you will lose the latent heat of the water vapour, unless it gets
so humid it condenses and runs down the walls.

[Andrew]

Post by Dave
I know its an old post, but saw this as I was browsing.

If you used a proper news reader like Thunderbird, then you
wouldn't see 4-year old posts that are no longer relevent.

[Brian Gaff]

What about those gas heaters that are portable with a tank of camping gaz or
whatever inside. the main issue I thought with those was lots of water
vapour.
Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

Post by harryagain

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.
Thanks,
Stephen.

The flame is yellow because of glowing carbon particles.
This is an indication that carbon monoxide may be being made.
It happens by a "reduction" process.
CO2 (carbon dioxide) passes through the hot carbon particles and is
reduced to CO.
Sometimes it gets burnt back to CO2 later in the process but it may be
escaping into the room.
Do not use until it has been serviced.
The gas fires with a coal/wood yellow flame effect have massive amounts of
extra air introduced "above" the flame to ensure CO is converted to CO2.
Hence they are very inefficient.
You don't say which you have got.
Definitely get a CO alarm.
All gas fires are very inefficient by todays standards.

[charles]

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.

I installed one of these in our previous house in the 1960s. I have a
feeling they are now illegal.

[Tim+]

Post by charles

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.

I installed one of these in our previous house in the 1960s. I have a
feeling they are now illegal.

Wrong.

Tim

[Brian Gaff]

So if you have one of these and put a de humidifier on it, do you get free
water?
Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

Post by Tim+

Post by charles

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.

I installed one of these in our previous house in the 1960s. I have a
feeling they are now illegal.

Wrong.
Tim

[Tim+]

Post by Brian Gaff
So if you have one of these and put a de humidifier on it, do you get free
water?

Of course, as long as your electricity and gas are both free. ;-)

Tim

[fred]

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.

You haven't given any indication of the age of the appliance, is it some
relic from the 1960s or something more modern?

How about a picture, shared via http://tinypic.com or similar.

Any manufacturer's markings on the body?

Look on the appliance (perhaps behind a control panel) for the
appliance's spec plate (there will be one). Read the 'GC' number from
there and search using that "GC number <number>" (without quotes) for
the maker and model. Download user and installation instructions and go
from there.

[Bill Wright]

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.
Thanks,
Stephen.

I had one of these and the condensation it caused was terrible. It even
made fabrics feel clammy. The only way we could use it was with the
windows open.

Bill

[newshound]

Post by Bill Wright

Post by Stephen
Hello,
I've moved into a house with a wall-hung flue less gas fire. I haven't
had one of these before. I'm off to buy a CO detector but in the
meantime, can you tell me about these? What colour is the flame
supposed to be? When I light this it has a yellow flame. I thought
this was supposed to be a bad thing as I thought yellow meant it was
not burning completely. However there are no signs of soot above the
fire nor inside it and pictures I have found of similar fires on
google show yellow flames too. I guess if the flames burnt pale blue,
people would not see the flames, so they wouldn't look as pretty. Do
ukdiy-ers vacuum the fire once a year like you may do to your boiler
or is it best to leave it to a gas safe person. I'm sure the CO alarm
will reassure me, just wanted to hear some opinions in the meantime.
Thanks,
Stephen.

I had one of these and the condensation it caused was terrible. It even
made fabrics feel clammy. The only way we could use it was with the
windows open.
Bill

Indeed. I had a small one providing background heating to a stairwell /
hallway in a draughty Victorian house before I could afford central
heating. I would not recommend them, but if you are on a tight budget
they are (theoretically) efficient.