Disappearing lawn

Post by Mathew Newton
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?

You haven't had any incontinent apprentices in recently?

Owain

Malcolm Race

2016-02-05 16:31:40 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-jun2014.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-aug2015.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn1-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn3-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn4-feb2016.jpg
Does anyone have any idea what has happened?
As you can hopefully make out, there do not appear to be any weeds or moss but rather the grass has seemingly disappeared. Note also that some areas (in the last photo) are still relatively lush in appearance.
We have always had some issues with earth worms and last year I was sweeping away casts regularly. Could this be it?
I am assuming that I will ultimately end up reseeding, or at least overseeding, however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?
Mathew

As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?

I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.

Malcolm

Mathew Newton

2016-02-05 16:49:53 UTC

Post by Malcolm Race
As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?

We're in Wiltshire.

I did wonder about drainage and thought I'd mention the clay subsoil because of it. However, from what I can tell the garden seems to drain okay - even the heaviest and most persistent of rain drops recently have not resulted in any obvious signs of poor drainage i.e. no puddles during/afterwards (perhaps that is not a useful indicator though).

Post by Malcolm Race
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.

Will do, thanks for the suggestion.

Tim Watts

2016-02-05 16:55:18 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...
In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden and
replaced it with Rolawn's Medallion turf sat on approx 6-8 inches of
their Blended Loam topsoil. Underneath this was the original heavy
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-jun2014.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-aug2015.jpg
However, the past few months have been a different story and we now
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn1-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn3-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn4-feb2016.jpg
Does anyone have any idea what has happened?
As you can hopefully make out, there do not appear to be any weeds or
moss but rather the grass has seemingly disappeared. Note also that
some areas (in the last photo) are still relatively lush in appearance.
We have always had some issues with earth worms and last year I was
sweeping away casts regularly. Could this be it?
I am assuming that I will ultimately end up reseeding, or at least
overseeding, however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has
happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?
Mathew

As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.
Malcolm

There has been a very large amount of prolonged rain this year - my
feeling is that it's shown up a drainage problem.

Some might recover when we get to spring - I have patches that get
waterlogged and do that, then recover.

The Natural Philosopher

2016-02-05 17:20:19 UTC

Post by Tim Watts

As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.
Malcolm

There has been a very large amount of prolonged rain this year - my
feeling is that it's shown up a drainage problem.
Some might recover when we get to spring - I have patches that get
waterlogged and do that, then recover.

yep fork it to pierce h clay pan and enhance drainage, and then try a
bit of fertiliser come March or so.

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

stuart noble

2016-02-05 17:31:37 UTC

Post by Tim Watts

As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.
Malcolm

There has been a very large amount of prolonged rain this year - my
feeling is that it's shown up a drainage problem.
Some might recover when we get to spring - I have patches that get
waterlogged and do that, then recover.

+1
I think I might lift the turf in the waterlogged areas (as it's
relatively new) and mix about a third sharp sand with the loam. It would
also help to get a fork well into the underlying clay at intervals.

Mathew Newton

2016-02-05 17:43:53 UTC

Post by stuart noble
I think I might lift the turf in the waterlogged areas (as it's
relatively new) and mix about a third sharp sand with the loam. It would
also help to get a fork well into the underlying clay at intervals.

Noting that the underlying clay is ~8 inches down any suggestion how best to go about forking it to improve the drainage?

Incidentally, whilst the consensus seems to be a drainage issue and that perhaps it is this winter's extra rainfall that have cause any issue when last year's was okay, there is something else that might be worth mentioning...

Last year I noticed that whenever I removed the odd weed that appeared in-between mowings I often found a 10-15mm long grub at the root of it. I thought nothing of this fact at the time however I have just been reading about leatherjackets and what damage they can do to a lawn. I can't help but wonder if that's what these grubs were and indeed if this is what has led to the grass loss?

Tim+

2016-02-05 18:08:38 UTC

Noting that the underlying clay is ~8 inches down any suggestion how best
to go about forking it to improve the drainage?
Incidentally, whilst the consensus seems to be a drainage issue and that
perhaps it is this winter's extra rainfall that have cause any issue when
last year's was okay, there is something else that might be worth mentioning...
Last year I noticed that whenever I removed the odd weed that appeared
in-between mowings I often found a 10-15mm long grub at the root of it. I
thought nothing of this fact at the time however I have just been reading
about leatherjackets and what damage they can do to a lawn. I can't help
but wonder if that's what these grubs were and indeed if this is what has
led to the grass loss?

Quite possibly but I don't know if they can cause this much damage. I think
that there are products that can kill the blighters.

Tim

Tim+

2016-02-05 18:11:11 UTC

Post by Tim+

Noting that the underlying clay is ~8 inches down any suggestion how best
to go about forking it to improve the drainage?
Incidentally, whilst the consensus seems to be a drainage issue and that
perhaps it is this winter's extra rainfall that have cause any issue when
last year's was okay, there is something else that might be worth mentioning...
Last year I noticed that whenever I removed the odd weed that appeared
in-between mowings I often found a 10-15mm long grub at the root of it. I
thought nothing of this fact at the time however I have just been reading
about leatherjackets and what damage they can do to a lawn. I can't help
but wonder if that's what these grubs were and indeed if this is what has
led to the grass loss?

Quite possibly but I don't know if they can cause this much damage. I think
that there are products that can kill the blighters.
Tim

Incidentally, we've found paying a professional lawn treatment firm is more
cost-effective than buying fertiliser/moss killer etc ourselves. Sure
they'll be happy to give a quote and could save you a *lot* of work if it
is just a bad case of leatherjacket infestation.

Tim

The Natural Philosopher

2016-02-05 19:16:08 UTC

Noting that the underlying clay is ~8 inches down any suggestion how best to go about forking it to improve the drainage?
Incidentally, whilst the consensus seems to be a drainage issue and that perhaps it is this winter's extra rainfall that have cause any issue when last year's was okay, there is something else that might be worth mentioning...
Last year I noticed that whenever I removed the odd weed that appeared in-between mowings I often found a 10-15mm long grub at the root of it. I thought nothing of this fact at the time however I have just been reading about leatherjackets and what damage they can do to a lawn. I can't help but wonder if that's what these grubs were and indeed if this is what has led to the grass loss?

could well be.
looks like a massive application of pesticide should sort it out.

Te warm winter will have allowed the bugs to thrive too

--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

Tim Watts

2016-02-05 19:09:19 UTC

Noting that the underlying clay is ~8 inches down any suggestion how best to go about forking it to improve the drainage?
Incidentally, whilst the consensus seems to be a drainage issue and that perhaps it is this winter's extra rainfall that have cause any issue when last year's was okay, there is something else that might be worth mentioning...
Last year I noticed that whenever I removed the odd weed that appeared in-between mowings I often found a 10-15mm long grub at the root of it. I thought nothing of this fact at the time however I have just been reading about leatherjackets and what damage they can do to a lawn. I can't help but wonder if that's what these grubs were and indeed if this is what has led to the grass loss?

I have clay 2-3' down (and near the surface in other places).

My clay is to all intents and purposes infinitely deep - at 3' it needs
an iron bar to loosen it - it is like shale.

I plan, because I have a slope, to dig 2' deep trenches in a grid and
fill those with 20mm to some depth, then cover over, plough and mix a
lot of sand into the top layer - with the aim of sending most of the
water to the lower part of my garden.

RayL12

2016-02-09 22:17:55 UTC

Post by Tim Watts

Noting that the underlying clay is ~8 inches down any suggestion how
best to go about forking it to improve the drainage?
Incidentally, whilst the consensus seems to be a drainage issue and
that perhaps it is this winter's extra rainfall that have cause any
issue when last year's was okay, there is something else that might be
worth mentioning...
Last year I noticed that whenever I removed the odd weed that appeared
in-between mowings I often found a 10-15mm long grub at the root of
it. I thought nothing of this fact at the time however I have just
been reading about leatherjackets and what damage they can do to a
lawn. I can't help but wonder if that's what these grubs were and
indeed if this is what has led to the grass loss?

I have clay 2-3' down (and near the surface in other places).
My clay is to all intents and purposes infinitely deep - at 3' it needs
an iron bar to loosen it - it is like shale.
I plan, because I have a slope, to dig 2' deep trenches in a grid and
fill those with 20mm to some depth, then cover over, plough and mix a
lot of sand into the top layer - with the aim of sending most of the
water to the lower part of my garden.

That's the way. I was happy to be part of a team that saw the results
of a school football pitch when it had never been played on for 11 years.

...Ray.
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harry

2016-02-07 08:11:08 UTC

Noting that the underlying clay is ~8 inches down any suggestion how best to go about forking it to improve the drainage?
Incidentally, whilst the consensus seems to be a drainage issue and that perhaps it is this winter's extra rainfall that have cause any issue when last year's was okay, there is something else that might be worth mentioning...
Last year I noticed that whenever I removed the odd weed that appeared in-between mowings I often found a 10-15mm long grub at the root of it. I thought nothing of this fact at the time however I have just been reading about leatherjackets and what damage they can do to a lawn. I can't help but wonder if that's what these grubs were and indeed if this is what has led to the grass loss?

It's perfectly normal for there to be leather jackets in any grassland.

The Natural Philosopher

2016-02-05 17:18:19 UTC

As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.

That is one, another is that pets or people are walking on the areas
that are bare and simply wearing it out. That's what the school rugby
pitch used to look like in January, too.

But even waterlogged clay should support some sport of grass, it may be
that you need a particular water loving sort of grass.

Post by Malcolm Race
Malcolm

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

Weatherlawyer

2016-02-25 14:45:45 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher

As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.

That is one, another is that pets or people are walking on the areas
that are bare and simply wearing it out. That's what the school rugby
pitch used to look like in January, too.

School rugby pitches are regularly walked all over by children with neither concern for footwear or school property. If i was the OP I would tell myself to leave the worms alone for a few weeks and every winter regardless of the regardening.

But the OP is obviously a bit simple so I would be talking to myself for all the wrong reasons. Just how much trampling does the fool think a practically new lawn is capable of dealing with in an exceptionally wet winter?

Mathew Newton

2016-02-25 16:12:22 UTC

Post by Weatherlawyer
But the OP is obviously a bit simple so I would be talking to myself for all
the wrong reasons. Just how much trampling does the fool think a practically
new lawn is capable of dealing with in an exceptionally wet winter?

*Sigh*

How many times do I have to say this? The lawn gets virtually no use at all. Indeed it hasn't been walked on for over three months now!

It certainly has never been 'trampled'. The main footfall is two cats, and they rarely deviate from their well defined paths as mentioned.

Having heard all the opinions, including that of Rolawn and the STRI, I am quite convinced that it is a leatherjacket issue and so that will be my focus going forwards.

Mathew

Vir Campestris

2016-02-05 21:51:44 UTC

Post by Malcolm Race
As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?

We're on clay, and we get standing water on our lawn when it's wet.

The grass grows fine - though I suppose it's had long enough to select
for varieties that cope.

Post by Malcolm Race
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.

"uk.rec.gardiening" - close but no cigar. You mean uk.rec.gardening -
I'll see you there.

Andy

Brian Gaff

2016-02-06 19:11:21 UTC

Many many years ago, my late father did some turfing of an area with a clay
soil, some way down. After about three years things went wrong after a
particularly wet spell. I can only suspect that the water table became so
high and could not drain and the roots just rotted in the parts where the
effect was worst.
Unfortunately come the spring he had a nice lawn of everything except
grass. It seems some grass is not very good at exploiting these conditions,
whereas weeds and other plants are.
Don't ask, but let me say that to this day I have a mixed up lawn, but as I
cannot see it I don't care any more!

Brian

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...
In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden and
replaced it with Rolawn's Medallion turf sat on approx 6-8 inches of
their Blended Loam topsoil. Underneath this was the original heavy clay
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-jun2014.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-aug2015.jpg
However, the past few months have been a different story and we now have
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn1-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn3-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn4-feb2016.jpg
Does anyone have any idea what has happened?
As you can hopefully make out, there do not appear to be any weeds or
moss but rather the grass has seemingly disappeared. Note also that some
areas (in the last photo) are still relatively lush in appearance.
We have always had some issues with earth worms and last year I was
sweeping away casts regularly. Could this be it?
I am assuming that I will ultimately end up reseeding, or at least
overseeding, however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has
happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?
Mathew

As you have sid that it is on a heavy clay sub soil my guess would be a
drainage problem - which area of the country are you in?
I would suggest you post to uk.rec.gardiening along with your location.
There are some experts on that group, although not many regular posters.
Malcolm

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!

harry

2016-02-05 17:23:54 UTC

Waterlogged I would say.
You may have made yourself an underground pond. Dig a hole in the worst affected area and leave for a few hours & see if it fills with water.
Or you needed sand mixed with the soil you laid your turf on.

Mathew Newton

2016-02-05 17:46:08 UTC

Post by harry
Waterlogged I would say.
You may have made yourself an underground pond. Dig a hole in the worst affected area and leave for a few hours & see if it fills with water.

Will give that a go this weekend if time/weather allows.

Post by harry
Or you needed sand mixed with the soil you laid your turf on.

Oh great... ;-)

Rolawn's blended loam does contain sand - I take it you mean I needed more?

Chris Hogg

2016-02-05 18:03:18 UTC

On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 08:08:48 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

I'd go with what several others have said - drainage (it has been a
very wet few months), possibly coupled with being walked or played on
while soggy. The fact that you've got lots of worm casts would support
that idea - the worms are in danger of drowning and are coming to the
surface to breathe.

As to what to do about it, I'd spike it all over with a garden fork,
driving it down as far as you can, preferable full depth, and giving
it a wiggle, and then move on 12 inches and repeat. Do it over the
whole lawn. Hard work, but it's not a huge area. Soon after, before
the holes have time to close up, apply sharp sand in generous amounts
and brush in with a stiff broom. Aim to get sand down the holes. More
hard work.

Don't be tempted to get one of those hollow-tine lawn spiking devices,
spring-loaded or otherwise. They're utterly hopeless! You spend a
whole lot more time clearing the hollow tines than actually doing the
spiking, and they don't go that deep anyway. Use a fork!

Given all that, and a bit of dry weather, it should recover.

--
Chris

Andrew

2016-02-10 11:57:16 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
Don't be tempted to get one of those hollow-tine lawn spiking devices,
spring-loaded or otherwise. They're utterly hopeless! You spend a
whole lot more time clearing the hollow tines than actually doing the
spiking, and they don't go that deep anyway. Use a fork!
Given all that, and a bit of dry weather, it should recover.

Local bowling club spent all weekend last september drilling 2 foot deep
holes all over their green. They had a an 8X4x18mm plywood panel
predrilled with an array of 20mm holes which they moved around the green
and then used an sds drill with a 2 foot long bit to make deep holes.
The plywood collected the dross which they discarded, and then they
poured sand and grit into the resulting tubes. Not sure if they plugged
the top of the hole with precut turf though.

Arable farmers on clay used to use things called pan-busters many years
ago. Like a special plough that goes down 2 foot pulled by a very
powerful tractor.

The Natural Philosopher

2016-02-10 16:00:22 UTC

Post by Andrew
Arable farmers on clay used to use things called pan-busters many years
ago. Like a special plough that goes down 2 foot pulled by a very
powerful tractor.

They still do, but its called 'subsoil ploughing' these days or
something like that.

They also will mole plough at a foot or two down and that with installed
land drains (porous pipe) allows pretty good drainage

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

RayL12

2016-02-10 19:25:35 UTC

Post by The Natural Philosopher

Post by Andrew
Arable farmers on clay used to use things called pan-busters many years
ago. Like a special plough that goes down 2 foot pulled by a very
powerful tractor.

They still do, but its called 'subsoil ploughing' these days or
something like that.
They also will mole plough at a foot or two down and that with installed
land drains (porous pipe) allows pretty good drainage

I was involved with a project to drain a school playing field. It was
soggy. I private contractor was brought in. He had a tractor machine
with a wheel cutter and pipe layer. It would very often jamb to a stop.

Progress was slow and the conditions meant his wheels created plough
lines in some areas of the otherwise flat field. I didn't get to see the
results.

Under different conditions this method would be quick and cleaner.
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News

2016-02-11 10:44:59 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Fri, 5 Feb 2016 08:08:48 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by Mathew Newton
I am assuming that I will ultimately end up reseeding, or at least
overseeding, however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has
happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?

Mathew, This has been an interesting discussion. I do hope you will
report back, in six or even twelve months time. Would love to know the
outcome.

--
Graeme

Mathew Newton

2016-02-11 20:34:24 UTC

Post by News
Mathew, This has been an interesting discussion. I do hope you will
report back, in six or even twelve months time. Would love to know the
outcome.

Will do - hopefully with good news! :-)

I hope to scribble down a drawing for a drainage idea this weekend and will scan it in to see what the panel think.

Mathew

Mathew Newton

2016-02-19 18:01:25 UTC

Post by News
Mathew, This has been an interesting discussion. I do hope you will
report back, in six or even twelve months time. Would love to know the
outcome.

Not quite 6/12 months just yet but I do have a bit of an update:

Someone suggested getting in touch with the turf+topsoil supplier (Rolawn) for their opinion so I did. They even passed on my photos to the Sports Turf Research Institute and they both believe, caveated by the limited information to go on, that the primary issue is a leatherjacket infestation.

The mild autumn/winter has been suggested an aggravating factor and they have suggested a nematode application once the soil warms up. I plan to do this in April and will also apply again in Sep/Oct when the new eggs start to hatch.

I plan on looking at drainage too and will post back tomorrow with a drawing to get thoughts from the panel on an idea!

Mathew

w***@gmail.com

2016-02-19 21:55:31 UTC

Post by News
Mathew, This has been an interesting discussion. I do hope you will
report back, in six or even twelve months time. Would love to know the
outcome.

Someone suggested getting in touch with the turf+topsoil supplier (Rolawn) for their opinion so I did. They even passed on my photos to the Sports Turf Research Institute and they both believe, caveated by the limited information to go on, that the primary issue is a leatherjacket infestation.
The mild autumn/winter has been suggested an aggravating factor and they have suggested a nematode application once the soil warms up. I plan to do this in April and will also apply again in Sep/Oct when the new eggs start to hatch.
I plan on looking at drainage too and will post back tomorrow with a drawing to get thoughts from the panel on an idea!
Mathew

Having looked at my lawn I noticed in a large area the grass is disappearing and moss has taken over due, yes due to unusually high rainfall.
Would it be prudent to suggest your grass should have been replaced with moss if drainage was the main problem and therefore the leather jackets may well be the main suspect?

Mathew Newton

2016-02-20 12:38:20 UTC

Post by w***@gmail.com
Having looked at my lawn I noticed in a large area the grass is
disappearing and moss has taken over due, yes due to unusually high rainfall.
Would it be prudent to suggest your grass should have been replaced with moss
if drainage was the main problem and therefore the leather jackets may well
be the main suspect?

That thought did cross my mind. Surely if my grass couldn't survive due to excessive water then it would likely have been replaced by other growth from matter more suited to the environment like moss as you say?

All that said, I am concious that I have the *potential* for drainage issues given the clay subsoil and garden layout. With this in mind I am wondering what others think me taking advantage of a rainwater sewer inspection chamber that I happen to have under my decking?

A picture speaks a thousand words:

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/Drainage%20Ideas.pdf (3.2MB)

The decking sits in a recess (to minimise the step up from the lawn) and so as a result I am assuming it is well located for draining the whole garden.

The easy (lazy) option (Option A in the drawing) would be for me to perforate the chamber walls - perhaps to nearly full height - however I am mindful that this could cause silting up of the outflow pipe over time?

Option B would be to dig around the top 250mm or so (access isn't all that easy given the surrounding decking hence not doing this for the full height), wrap it with permeable weed-stop fabric and infill with gravel. Only this section would then be perforated.

Any thoughts on this idea? I recognise that the ideal (aka 'should have done this in the first place') option would be to provide channels from across the lawn to the chamber as the clay subsoil might not allow free levelling/distribution of the water without these however I am mindful that I don't have a confirmed drainage issue and also want to minimise effort by digging the whole lawn/soil up if at all possible!

Mathew

Chris Hogg

2016-02-20 14:19:07 UTC

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 04:38:20 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by Mathew Newton
Any thoughts on this idea? I recognise that the ideal (aka 'should have done this in the first place') option would be to provide channels from across the lawn to the chamber as the clay subsoil might not allow free levelling/distribution of the water without these however I am mindful that I don't have a confirmed drainage issue and also want to minimise effort by digging the whole lawn/soil up if at all possible!
Mathew

Until you've ensured you no longer have a leatherjacket problem
(assuming you had one in the first place), I'd do absolutely nothing,
otherwise you might find you've put in a lot of work for nothing.

--
Chris

Stuart Noble

2016-02-20 16:39:48 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 04:38:20 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by Mathew Newton
Any thoughts on this idea? I recognise that the ideal (aka 'should
have done this in the first place') option would be to provide
channels from across the lawn to the chamber as the clay subsoil
might not allow free levelling/distribution of the water without
these however I am mindful that I don't have a confirmed drainage
issue and also want to minimise effort by digging the whole
lawn/soil up if at all possible!
Mathew

Until you've ensured you no longer have a leatherjacket problem
(assuming you had one in the first place), I'd do absolutely
nothing, otherwise you might find you've put in a lot of work for
nothing.

and still it kept on raining.....

Mathew Newton

2016-02-20 18:48:38 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
Until you've ensured you no longer have a leatherjacket problem
(assuming you had one in the first place), I'd do absolutely
nothing, otherwise you might find you've put in a lot of work for
nothing.

The thing is I can only really tackle the leatherjackets in anger in Sep/Oct and so don't want to sit back until then. Besides which, the proposed plan isn't much work and I don't see any downsides (I just want to ensure there's an upside though!).

t***@gmail.com

2016-02-05 18:34:11 UTC

Only a few observations. As said, saturated ground, the wrong type of grass & overuse (which only means normal use for some grass types) are all candidates.

I'm also wondering about the worm casts: a lawn needs worms to provide fertility, or the grass doesn't grow. The only issue would be if you didn't get them.

Also reseeding isn't usually the solution. You have grass, it's more a question of sorting out the growing conditions so it flourishes & spreads. However you might just have the wrong grass blend. If that's possible I'd look at adding a low level of a blend designed for heavy use & bad drainage. Don't remove the existing grass, obviously.

I'd wait until the spring and add the right seed & fertilise. A little homebreweed compost, not much, may also help.

NT

Mathew Newton

2016-02-05 18:53:38 UTC

Only a few observations. As said, saturated ground, the wrong type of grass & > overuse (which only means normal use for some grass types) are all
candidates.

I can definitely rule out overuse. There is only the wife and I and, as you can see from the photos, the layout lends itself to only a couple of thoroughfares and yet the problem is all over. There are two cats also however they stick - rigidly to discrete foot holes - to specific paths also.

I'm also wondering about the worm casts: a lawn needs worms to provide
fertility, or the grass doesn't grow. The only issue would be if you didn't
get them.

Yes; I have assumed that the earthworms are only eating rotting matter and not the roots and so shouldn't be causing damage beyond the production and consequences of casts.

I've just been out and had a quick dig - having removed barely a mugful of soil I found 2-3 grubs which, if indicative of density across the lawn, means there are thousands and they must be feeding on something. I will line some up for a photo and identification tomorrow. I have also laid some layers of weed-stop fabric down and given it a good watering to encourage more to take part...

Mathew

t***@gmail.com

2016-02-05 19:08:57 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I've just been out and had a quick dig - having removed barely a mugful of soil I found 2-3 grubs which, if indicative of density across the lawn, means there are thousands and they must be feeding on something. I will line some up for a photo and identification tomorrow. I have also laid some layers of weed-stop fabric down and given it a good watering to encourage more to take part...

I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

NT

Mathew Newton

2016-02-05 19:38:28 UTC

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackedermine-turf/01083.html

It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

Mathew Newton

2016-02-06 10:39:00 UTC

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackedermine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

The weed fabric trick worked perfectly and brought a whole variety of things to the surface in a single square foot (all images high res for zooming):

Loading Image...

Of note were 50 or so of these:

Loading Image...

And a fair number of these (mature version of the above?):

Loading Image...

Mathew

Chris Hogg

2016-02-06 11:14:40 UTC

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:39:00 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackedermine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs1.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs2.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs3.jpg
Mathew

The grubs look very like leatherjackets, see this lot
http://tinyurl.com/z8blfeu , but you may also have chafer grubs (the
ones that look like caterpillars, 6 legs, creamy white with a
reddish-brown head when washed free of soil)
http://tinyurl.com/z98cj9a . They also eat grass roots. I'd repeat the
fabric treatment all over the lawn using a larger piece of fabric,
pick out the leatherjackets, chafer grubs and slugs and dispose of
them, and leave the worms.

--
Chris

Tim Streater

2016-02-06 12:21:56 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:39:00 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackede
rmine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

The weed fabric trick worked perfectly and brought a whole variety of things
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs1.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs2.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs3.jpg
Mathew

Presumably those to be disposed of could be left in a dish for the
birds?

--
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a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee

Chris Hogg

2016-02-06 12:38:50 UTC

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 12:21:56 +0000, Tim Streater

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:39:00 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackede
rmine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

Presumably those to be disposed of could be left in a dish for the
birds?

Indeed, provided they can't crawl back to the lawn. Starlings,
jackdaws and crows love them.

--
Chris

RayL12

2016-02-09 23:21:31 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 12:21:56 +0000, Tim Streater

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:39:00 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackede
rmine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

Presumably those to be disposed of could be left in a dish for the
birds?

Indeed, provided they can't crawl back to the lawn. Starlings,
jackdaws and crows love them.

Birds will recognise that, when the nets go down, it will soon be
dinner time. If you highlight that by getting there attention with a
sound when you do it, better still.

An amazing little thing was, while I was working in a local town.
Pigeons began to gather in huge numbers on the roofs either side of the
road.

I asked some local what's going on and he told me that a guy is about
to leave his house. For years he has gone out everyday and, everyday he
lets out a few handfuls of seeds several times a day throughout his journey.

He is followed by clouds of pigeons. And, of course, the locals called
him pigeon man.

Sadly, as it is his feed that enables the large population of pigeons,
his demise will be the pigeons too. Everyone will know he's gone.

...Ray.
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RayL12

2016-02-09 23:36:19 UTC

Post by RayL12

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 12:21:56 +0000, Tim Streater

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:39:00 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackede
rmine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

Presumably those to be disposed of could be left in a dish for the
birds?

Indeed, provided they can't crawl back to the lawn. Starlings,
jackdaws and crows love them.

Birds will recognise that, when the nets go down, it will soon be
dinner time. If you highlight that by getting there attention with a
sound when you do it, better still.
An amazing little thing was, while I was working in a local town.
Pigeons began to gather in huge numbers on the roofs either side of the
road.
I asked some local what's going on and he told me that a guy is about
to leave his house. For years he has gone out everyday and, everyday he
lets out a few handfuls of seeds several times a day throughout his journey.
He is followed by clouds of pigeons. And, of course, the locals called
him pigeon man.
Sadly, as it is his feed that enables the large population of pigeons,
his demise will be the pigeons too. Everyone will know he's gone.
...Ray.

Damn! There their.

...Ray.
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RayL12

2016-02-09 23:11:53 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:39:00 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering,

seriously?
http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackede
rmine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

Presumably those to be disposed of could be left in a dish for the
birds?

Good call, Tim.

...Ray.
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RayL12

2016-02-10 01:34:11 UTC

Post by Chris Hogg
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:39:00 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackedermine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs1.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs2.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs3.jpg
Mathew

As a kid, I loved how those things felt in my fingers. We had a good
garden condition firm in wet weather and hardly ever watered in the summers.

I think we would find these creatures when we lifted the house bricks
around the perimeter as kids exploring?

Though beneath the surface the soil is darker, it was never really
what you call wet. For this reason, I don't imagine the Leatherback to
be a creature of the wet conditions, whether or not they can be.

...Ray
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jim

2016-02-07 19:27:05 UTC

Post by t***@gmail.com
I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-issues/06-2010/leatherjackedermine-turf/01083.html
It apparently brings grubs such as leatherjackets up to the surface, presumably
by blocking out the dawn light which would otherwise cause a retreat.

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs1.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs2.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/grubs3.jpg
Mathew

Stick it in a wiki ;-)

--
Jim K

----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Chris Hogg

2016-02-05 19:54:52 UTC

I can't imagine how weed stop fabric could help. And watering, seriously?

The intention is to bring the leatherjackets to the surface to confirm
the diagnosis. It's a traditional method of treatment. The
leatherjackets can then be collected up and destroyed, or fed to the
birds, whatever. The OP may have to do it several times to get them
all, and do only small sections at a time otherwise the exposed grubs
will all burrow back down again before he can get at them.

To the OP: have you seen lots of bird activity on your lawn this
winter, such as crows or starlings poking their beaks into the soil,
or did you see lots of crane flies (aka daddy-longlegs) flying around
in the autumn? The grubs are a dirty greyish cream colour, about an
inch (2.54cm!) long and burst with a satisfying pop if you squeeze
them hard enough. But if it's an infestation it needs treatment. The
bad news is that I believe all the insecticides that work and were
available to the amateur gardener have been banned and withdrawn. The
good news is that there is a biological control available, a nematode
that enters the leatherjacket and eats it from the inside. Best
applied in the autumn (applied with a watering can AIUI), but it's
mild ATM and I guess you could try now, and again in the autumn to
catch next season's newly hatched grubs. This year's grubs will pupate
at the end of the summer and hatch in the autumn, so be prepared for
an invasion of crane flies then.

--
Chris

Rod Speed

2016-02-06 01:18:20 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...
In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden and
replaced it with Rolawn's Medallion turf sat on approx 6-8 inches of
their Blended Loam topsoil. Underneath this was the original heavy clay
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-jun2014.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-aug2015.jpg
However, the past few months have been a different story and we now have
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn1-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn3-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn4-feb2016.jpg
Does anyone have any idea what has happened?
As you can hopefully make out, there do not appear to be any weeds or
moss but rather the grass has seemingly disappeared. Note also that some
areas (in the last photo) are still relatively lush in appearance.
We have always had some issues with earth worms and last year I was
sweeping away casts regularly. Could this be it?
I am assuming that I will ultimately end up reseeding, or at least
overseeding, however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has
happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?
Mathew

Only a few observations. As said, saturated ground, the wrong type of
grass

Doesn't explain why it went fine for years.

Post by t***@gmail.com
& overuse (which only means normal use for some grass types)

Unlikely given how uniformly its gone bad now.

Post by t***@gmail.com
are all candidates.
I'm also wondering about the worm casts: a lawn needs
worms to provide fertility, or the grass doesn't grow.

You have obviously never actually grown kikuyu.

Post by t***@gmail.com
The only issue would be if you didn't get them.
Also reseeding isn't usually the solution. You have grass,
it's more a question of sorting out the growing conditions
so it flourishes & spreads. However you might just have
the wrong grass blend.

Again, doesn't explain why it went fine for years.

Post by t***@gmail.com
If that's possible I'd look at adding a low level of a blend designed for
heavy use & bad drainage. Don't remove the existing grass, obviously.
I'd wait until the spring and add the right seed & fertilise.
A little homebreweed compost, not much, may also help.

Bet it's the leatherjackets.

s***@googlemail.com

2016-02-05 19:35:42 UTC

From your pics I think that the grass is buried under the amazing number of worm casts. The warm and very wet season has caused the worms to move higher above the clay level; they are fighting to aerate the too-wet soil. The problem is worse where the lawn gets the run-off from the paving.

Mathew Newton

2016-02-05 19:46:18 UTC

Post by s***@googlemail.com
From your pics I think that the grass is buried under the amazing number of
worm casts.

I did wonder that.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
The warm and very wet season has caused the worms to move higher above the
clay level; they are fighting to aerate the too-wet soil.

Disappointing to hear poor drainage being the likely cause again as it seems like the hardest to resolve.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
The problem is worse where the lawn gets the run-off from the paving.

The run-off isn't actually that great there - it only amounts to around 0.5sqm as the rest of the patio slopes towards a couple of drains by the house (more photos at http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/garden/).

Mathew

RJH

2016-02-06 13:16:02 UTC

Post by s***@googlemail.com
From your pics I think that the grass is buried under the amazing number of
worm casts.

I did wonder that.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
The warm and very wet season has caused the worms to move higher above the
clay level; they are fighting to aerate the too-wet soil.

Disappointing to hear poor drainage being the likely cause again as it seems like the hardest to resolve.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
The problem is worse where the lawn gets the run-off from the paving.

Afraid I can't offer a great deal, beyond the comment that something
very similar has happened to my neighbour's last-season's turf. Looked
very healthy over the summer. S.Yorkshire, very rainy winter.

Incidentally, what's going on in this picture:

Loading Image...

Specifically, the space between levels, propped apart by the post?!

--
Cheers, Rob

Mathew Newton

2016-02-06 13:39:42 UTC

Post by RJH
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/garden/#IMG_1705.JPG
Specifically, the space between levels, propped apart by the post?!

It was just in the middle of excavation of the sub-base - I was levering up the solid slab base with an old post. Not sure why the photo made the album - perhaps just as a reminder of what the sub-base looked like!

RJH

2016-02-06 15:34:33 UTC

Post by RJH
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/garden/#IMG_1705.JPG
Specifically, the space between levels, propped apart by the post?!

Ta! I tend to the same :-)

--
Cheers, Rob

RayL12

2016-02-09 23:53:07 UTC

Post by s***@googlemail.com
From your pics I think that the grass is buried under the amazing number of
worm casts.

I did wonder that.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
The warm and very wet season has caused the worms to move higher above the
clay level; they are fighting to aerate the too-wet soil.

Disappointing to hear poor drainage being the likely cause again as it seems like the hardest to resolve.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
The problem is worse where the lawn gets the run-off from the paving.

I have, since my last post, had another thought regards drainage. I
suggested a French Drain type of stone filled sump. But even a large
volume sump can only hold so much water.

I also considered a water sucking plant but, couldn't imagine what?
But then I remembered hearing there is such a thing as a miniature
conifer? I believe these plants have a thirst?

So, dig the hole. Line it. Fill it with 20 - 40 mm stone 6in short of
surface and while doing so, stick the tree in. Re-turf around tree,
unless you want it open to air.

..Ray.
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Mr Pounder Esquire

2016-02-05 19:53:58 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...
In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden and
replaced it with Rolawn's Medallion turf sat on approx 6-8 inches of
their Blended Loam topsoil. Underneath this was the original heavy
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-jun2014.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-aug2015.jpg
However, the past few months have been a different story and we now
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn1-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn3-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn4-feb2016.jpg
Does anyone have any idea what has happened?
As you can hopefully make out, there do not appear to be any weeds or
moss but rather the grass has seemingly disappeared. Note also that
some areas (in the last photo) are still relatively lush in
appearance.
We have always had some issues with earth worms and last year I was
sweeping away casts regularly. Could this be it?
I am assuming that I will ultimately end up reseeding, or at least
overseeding, however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has
happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?
Mathew

My back lawn Always looks like that in winter.
In summer it recovers.

stuart noble

2016-02-06 10:53:51 UTC

Post by Mr Pounder Esquire

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...
In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden and
replaced it with Rolawn's Medallion turf sat on approx 6-8 inches of
their Blended Loam topsoil. Underneath this was the original heavy
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-jun2014.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn-aug2015.jpg
However, the past few months have been a different story and we now
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn1-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn3-feb2016.jpg
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn4-feb2016.jpg
Does anyone have any idea what has happened?
As you can hopefully make out, there do not appear to be any weeds or
moss but rather the grass has seemingly disappeared. Note also that
some areas (in the last photo) are still relatively lush in
appearance.
We have always had some issues with earth worms and last year I was
sweeping away casts regularly. Could this be it?
I am assuming that I will ultimately end up reseeding, or at least
overseeding, however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has
happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?
Mathew

My back lawn Always looks like that in winter.
In summer it recovers.

+1. I'm sure it's the norm pretty much everywhere, it certainly is on
the lawn I lovingly "restored" last Spring. Just think, in the hot
summer we're going to have, you won't be panicking about moisture retention.
Re time and motion, try whacking one of these as deep as you can

Post by Mr Pounder Esquire
http://www.screwfix.com/p/roughneck-cold-chisel-1-x-18/37973

I use mine for all manner of stuff in the garden.

Mathew Newton

2016-02-06 11:15:01 UTC

Post by stuart noble
Re time and motion, try whacking one of these as deep as you can

Post by Mr Pounder Esquire
http://www.screwfix.com/p/roughneck-cold-chisel-1-x-18/37973

'Time and motion'?

stuart noble

2016-02-06 14:06:18 UTC

Post by stuart noble
Re time and motion, try whacking one of these as deep as you can

Post by Mr Pounder Esquire
http://www.screwfix.com/p/roughneck-cold-chisel-1-x-18/37973

'Time and motion'?

You know, the least labour intensive way to achieve the desired result.
You can get very long sds bits which might be easier than hammering in
(and removing) a cold chisel. As Tim says, boring holes could work

Mathew Newton

2016-02-06 20:17:21 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
'Time and motion'?

You know, the least labour intensive way to achieve the desired result.

Ah, gotcha!

Post by stuart noble
You can get very long sds bits which might be easier than hammering in
(and removing) a cold chisel.

That's a good idea, even if it might make the neighbours think I've finally lost it! ;-)

Roger Mills

2016-02-06 21:07:45 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
'Time and motion'?

You know, the least labour intensive way to achieve the desired result.

Ah, gotcha!

Post by stuart noble
You can get very long sds bits which might be easier than hammering in
(and removing) a cold chisel.

That's a good idea, even if it might make the neighbours think I've finally lost it! ;-)

Are you sure that an SDS drill will work in softish materials? I always
thought they needed something hard to react against.

Even if it does, it's not a 5 minute job! I reckon that, to do any good,
you'd need a matrix of holes no more than 6"[1] apart - so that's 36
holes per square yard.

[1] Let's get used to using imperial units again, ready for when we get
our country back.

--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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alan_m

2016-02-06 21:55:19 UTC

Post by Roger Mills
[1] Let's get used to using imperial units again, ready for when we get
our country back.

I was being taught in SI units a decade before we were ruled by the EU.

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Roger Mills

2016-02-07 11:42:43 UTC

Post by alan_m

Post by Roger Mills
[1] Let's get used to using imperial units again, ready for when we get
our country back.

I was being taught in SI units a decade before we were ruled by the EU.

So was I actually! But I was just making the point that it will be nice
not to be *told* by the EU what units we have to use - particularly
market traders with their pounds and ounces, etc.

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Roger
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alan_m

2016-02-07 12:15:47 UTC

Post by alan_m

Post by Roger Mills
[1] Let's get used to using imperial units again, ready for when we get
our country back.

I was being taught in SI units a decade before we were ruled by the EU.

So was I actually! But I was just making the point that it will be nice
not to be *told* by the EU what units we have to use - particularly
market traders with their pounds and ounces, etc.

The UK government did that all by itself! It could have kept
pound/ounces in that same way we still use pints and miles.

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stuart noble

2016-02-07 09:24:58 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
'Time and motion'?

You know, the least labour intensive way to achieve the desired result.

Ah, gotcha!

Post by stuart noble
You can get very long sds bits which might be easier than hammering in
(and removing) a cold chisel.

That's a good idea, even if it might make the neighbours think I've finally lost it! ;-)

Are you sure that an SDS drill will work in softish materials? I always
thought they needed something hard to react against.
Even if it does, it's not a 5 minute job! I reckon that, to do any good,
you'd need a matrix of holes no more than 6"[1] apart - so that's 36
holes per square yard.

All you can say is that it isn't any more labour intensive now than it
would have been had the OP drilled into the clay before putting the loam
down.
IIRC the SDS drill works fine in soft earth, or how about one of these

Post by Roger Mills
http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-pro-masonry-drill-bit-16-x-400mm/36932

for £2.99?

Rod Speed

2016-02-07 17:36:59 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
'Time and motion'?

You know, the least labour intensive way to achieve the desired result.

Ah, gotcha!

Post by stuart noble
You can get very long sds bits which might be easier than hammering in
(and removing) a cold chisel.

That's a good idea, even if it might make the neighbours think I've
finally lost it! ;-)

Are you sure that an SDS drill will work in softish materials? I always
thought they needed something hard to react against.
Even if it does, it's not a 5 minute job! I reckon that, to do any good,
you'd need a matrix of holes no more than 6"[1] apart - so that's 36
holes per square yard.

All you can say is that it isn't any more labour intensive now than it
would have been had the OP drilled into the clay before putting the loam
down.

The point is tho that there are much less labor intensive ways
of improving the drainage that could have been used when
there was just clay there, before the decent soil was added.

Post by stuart noble
IIRC the SDS drill works fine in soft earth, or how about one of these

Post by Roger Mills
http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-pro-masonry-drill-bit-16-x-400mm/36932

for £2.99?

Mathew Newton

2016-02-07 17:44:05 UTC

Post by Rod Speed
The point is tho that there are much less labor intensive ways
of improving the drainage that could have been used when
there was just clay there, before the decent soil was added.

Yeah, alright - it's bad enough seeing what has happened to my pride and joy so don't rub it in! ;-)

t***@gmail.com

2016-02-07 19:01:35 UTC

Yeah, alright - it's bad enough seeing what has happened to my pride and joy so don't rub it in! ;-)

It's Rod... you'll get the hang of him.

NT

Rod Speed

2016-02-07 22:29:24 UTC

Yeah, alright - it's bad enough seeing what has
happened to my pride and joy so don't rub it in! ;-)

I doubt its actually the problem myself, it looks
like it's the grub infestation that's the actual
problem and that is easy to deal with now.

Sure, it might have been better to have better
drainage, but as someone else pointed out that
might well be a problem when it doesn't rain
much although easier to fix by watering when it
hasn't rained much than when its rained too much.

t***@gmail.com

2016-02-07 23:19:53 UTC

Post by Rod Speed

Yeah, alright - it's bad enough seeing what has
happened to my pride and joy so don't rub it in! ;-)

I doubt its actually the problem myself, it looks
like it's the grub infestation that's the actual
problem and that is easy to deal with now.

Give them to Rod, he likes wichity grubs

stuart noble

2016-02-08 07:44:12 UTC

The point is tho that there are much less labor intensive ways of
improving the drainage that could have been used when there was
just clay there, before the decent soil was added.

Yeah, alright - it's bad enough seeing what has happened to my pride
and joy so don't rub it in! ;-)

Thought of you as I walked in the park yesterday. One corner of it is 6"
under water and, I can assure you, that's highly unusual.
Don't beat yourself up :-)

Mathew Newton

2016-02-08 20:43:37 UTC

Post by stuart noble
Thought of you as I walked in the park yesterday. One corner of it is 6"
under water and, I can assure you, that's highly unusual.
Don't beat yourself up :-)

Thanks for that Stuart! :-)

I must say, I can't help but look at every lawn and patch of grass I pass and I too am seeing some very waterlogged areas out and about. However, they all seem to still have plenty of grass - even where fully submerged. That said, I am also seeing that many have a lot of moss which I suppose isn't ideal... but at least it's green!

Mathew

stuart noble

2016-02-08 07:48:07 UTC

I don't happen to believe that. You need decent sized holes filled with
a decent amount of sand, unless of course we have a dry spell.......

Rod Speed

2016-02-08 09:04:35 UTC

I don't happen to believe that.

More fool you.

Post by stuart noble
You need decent sized holes filled with a decent amount of sand,

Or proper trenches in the clay, much easier to do
before the good soil is added on top of the clay.

Or decent tile drains or proper drainage pipe.

Post by stuart noble
unless of course we have a dry spell.......

At which time you can obviously water the lawn.

RayL12

2016-02-10 00:25:22 UTC

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Mathew Newton
'Time and motion'?

You know, the least labour intensive way to achieve the desired result.

Ah, gotcha!

Post by stuart noble
You can get very long sds bits which might be easier than hammering in
(and removing) a cold chisel.

That's a good idea, even if it might make the neighbours think I've
finally lost it! ;-)

Are you sure that an SDS drill will work in softish materials? I always
thought they needed something hard to react against.
Even if it does, it's not a 5 minute job! I reckon that, to do any good,
you'd need a matrix of holes no more than 6"[1] apart - so that's 36
holes per square yard.

All you can say is that it isn't any more labour intensive now than it
would have been had the OP drilled into the clay before putting the
loam down.

The point is tho that there are much less labor intensive ways
of improving the drainage that could have been used when
there was just clay there, before the decent soil was added.

Post by stuart noble
IIRC the SDS drill works fine in soft earth, or how about one of these

Post by Roger Mills
http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-pro-masonry-drill-bit-16-x-400mm/36932

for £2.99?

Without a soak-away or, run off, no amount of holes will really help.
More likely, it will simply delay the flooding as the holes fill.

With regard tot he sump I mentioned earlier. It wouldn't be a bad
adventure to find what the characteristics of the soil types are that
you used in the fill. You may determine what distances you will use
between the 4in or, 100mm, (Yes, I been reading) wide channels radiating
out from the sump.

A lot of good work gone into that garden. It's a shame to see it suffer
that way.

...Ray.
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alan_m

2016-02-06 09:19:09 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
however I am keen to ensure that I understand what has happened and how to prevent it reoccurring.
Any thoughts and/or suggestions?

It looks as though its become waterlogged and the roots have died. The
worms will have being doing a lot of good by aerating the soil.

http://www.turfgrass.co.uk/assets/uploaded_files/articles/wetlawns-highres.pdf#

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=204

This autumn/winter my lawn/soil has often been very wet for longish
periods and I have a couple of feet of light loam before hitting a clay
like soil. My lawn still looks very green but some of that is moss.

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Mathew Newton

2016-02-06 10:41:10 UTC

Post by alan_m
It looks as though its become waterlogged and the roots have died. The
worms will have being doing a lot of good by aerating the soil.

I am fearing it being a waterlogging issue. It has rained all night and this morning the soil was pretty sodden.

When the weather improves I will try forking the lawn and brushing in some sand to see if that helps. I am kicking myself now as given I installed the whole thing I can't help but think how relatively straightforward it would have been to put in some drainage beforehand...

T i m

2016-02-06 11:32:54 UTC

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:41:10 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by alan_m
It looks as though its become waterlogged and the roots have died. The
worms will have being doing a lot of good by aerating the soil.

I am fearing it being a waterlogging issue. It has rained all night and this morning the soil was pretty sodden.
When the weather improves I will try forking the lawn and brushing in some sand to see if that helps. I am kicking myself now as given I installed the whole thing I can't help but think how relatively straightforward it would have been to put in some drainage beforehand...

I don't know if this has specifically been mentioned but along with
heavy spiking I've seen a technique where you bore holes (50mm
diameter or so) every so often though the lawn, sub soil and ideally
though the clay and fill them (just short of the top) with sharp sand.
Put the soil back on top and it may help with the drainage. At least
you wouldn't have to dig the whole lot up. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Rod Speed

2016-02-06 19:57:44 UTC

Post by T i m
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 02:41:10 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

Post by alan_m
It looks as though its become waterlogged and the roots have died. The
worms will have being doing a lot of good by aerating the soil.

I am fearing it being a waterlogging issue. It has rained all night and
this morning the soil was pretty sodden.
When the weather improves I will try forking the lawn and brushing in some
sand to see if that helps. I am kicking myself now as given I installed
the whole thing I can't help but think how relatively straightforward it
would have been to put in some drainage beforehand...

Looks much more like a grub/leatherjacket problem than drainage
to me. And much easier to deal with than improving the drainage now.

Mathew Newton

2016-02-06 20:31:12 UTC

Post by T i m
I don't know if this has specifically been mentioned but along with
heavy spiking I've seen a technique where you bore holes (50mm
diameter or so) every so often though the lawn, sub soil and ideally
though the clay and fill them (just short of the top) with sharp sand.
Put the soil back on top and it may help with the drainage. At least
you wouldn't have to dig the whole lot up. ;-)

That sounds like a good idea. I've got a 2-3 foot scaffold pole offcut which I could drive in with a sledge hammer. Remembering first of course to ensure I've got a means to pull it out again! (couple of holes drilled either side to accept a rod inserted to allow a twist-and-pull motion?)

Mathew

T i m

2016-02-06 20:42:45 UTC

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 12:31:12 -0800 (PST), Mathew Newton

That sounds like a good idea. I've got a 2-3 foot scaffold pole offcut which I could drive in with a sledge hammer.

I'm not sure if grinding a bit of a bevel on the outside of the
cutting face would help that process?

Post by Mathew Newton
Remembering first of course to ensure I've got a means to pull it out again! (couple of holes drilled either side to accept a rod inserted to allow a twist-and-pull motion?)

That sounds like a plan (should it come to that etc). ;-)

You don't have any unprotected mains cables or water pipes under that
lawn do you? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

p.s. FWIW I think they use Rye grass for football pitches and that
seems to be pretty tough. ;-)

Another John

2016-02-07 13:25:38 UTC

... I've seen a technique where you bore holes (50mm

...
That sounds like a good idea. I've got a 2-3 foot scaffold pole offcut which
I could drive in with a sledge hammer. Remembering first of course to ensure
I've got a means to pull it out again! (couple of holes drilled either side
to accept a rod inserted to allow a twist-and-pull motion?)

Warning: you also need a means of pushing the core out of the tube! I've
done this sort of thing myself, and on a clayey soil, and by gum it
became impossible in the end to remove the cores from the borer. Maybe
you could come up with an Improved Homemade Borer, Mathew.

i also have one of those lawn aerators which removes cores rather then
simply poking holes (4 or 5 cores at a time). It's fairly good, but
impossible to use in anything other than bone dry conditions, on our
clay soil, for the same reason as above.

Cheers -- let us know in a few months how you've got on!

John

t***@gmail.com

2016-02-07 14:07:47 UTC

Post by Another John

... I've seen a technique where you bore holes (50mm

Warning: you also need a means of pushing the core out of the tube! I've
done this sort of thing myself, and on a clayey soil, and by gum it
became impossible in the end to remove the cores from the borer. Maybe
you could come up with an Improved Homemade Borer, Mathew.
i also have one of those lawn aerators which removes cores rather then
simply poking holes (4 or 5 cores at a time). It's fairly good, but
impossible to use in anything other than bone dry conditions, on our
clay soil, for the same reason as above.
Cheers -- let us know in a few months how you've got on!
John

An effortless way to make holes: a hose. But not so quick. Maybe you could combine it with the pole.

NT

RayL12

2016-02-10 01:05:02 UTC

Post by Another John

... I've seen a technique where you bore holes (50mm

Warning: you also need a means of pushing the core out of the tube! I've
done this sort of thing myself, and on a clayey soil, and by gum it
became impossible in the end to remove the cores from the borer. Maybe
you could come up with an Improved Homemade Borer, Mathew.
i also have one of those lawn aerators which removes cores rather then
simply poking holes (4 or 5 cores at a time). It's fairly good, but
impossible to use in anything other than bone dry conditions, on our
clay soil, for the same reason as above.
Cheers -- let us know in a few months how you've got on!
John

An effortless way to make holes: a hose. But not so quick. Maybe you could combine it with the pole.
NT

With attention to services and utilities, a 6ft by 1in breaker bar
will get you through this much quicker. You may be able to hire one?

Raise and drop. When you get down you drop the bar and give it one
large circular movement for each drop. You can be three foot with
minutes and have a good 9 inch or, whatever size, taper.

...Ray.
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t***@gmail.com

2016-02-11 09:43:37 UTC

Post by RayL12

Post by t***@gmail.com
An effortless way to make holes: a hose. But not so quick. Maybe you could combine it with the pole.

The catch is that phrase 'With attention to services and utilities'

NT

jim

2016-02-07 19:46:47 UTC

Ebay e.g.
201402047560

Sds 1m long bits.... Fill holes with sand? Tho if the clays
deeper as it likely is, not sure what'll change?

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alan_m

2016-02-06 12:02:06 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I am kicking myself now as given I installed the whole thing I can't
help but think how relatively straightforward it would have been to
put in some drainage beforehand...

If you had put in drainage we would have had a prolonged dry period and
your drainage would have removed the much needed water. You cannot win.

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Mathew Newton

2016-02-06 13:00:21 UTC

Post by alan_m
If you had put in drainage we would have had a prolonged dry period and
your drainage would have removed the much needed water. You cannot win.

Thanks - I'll try and look at it that way! ;-)

t***@gmail.com

2016-02-06 19:42:16 UTC

Post by alan_m
It looks as though its become waterlogged and the roots have died. The
worms will have being doing a lot of good by aerating the soil.

I am fearing it being a waterlogging issue. It has rained all night and this morning the soil was pretty sodden.
When the weather improves I will try forking the lawn and brushing in some sand to see if that helps. I am kicking myself now as given I installed the whole thing I can't help but think how relatively straightforward it would have been to put in some drainage beforehand...

Do you have somewhere for water to drain to? If so one can always dig a channel toward it & fill with gravel/sand or other unrottable material.

NT

RayL12

2016-02-10 00:55:20 UTC

Post by alan_m
It looks as though its become waterlogged and the roots have died. The
worms will have being doing a lot of good by aerating the soil.

I am fearing it being a waterlogging issue. It has rained all night and this morning the soil was pretty sodden.
When the weather improves I will try forking the lawn and brushing in some sand to see if that helps. I am kicking myself now as given I installed the whole thing I can't help but think how relatively straightforward it would have been to put in some drainage beforehand...

There for, it is still an ongoing project, none the less. Enjoy the
results of making it good.

...Ray.
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michael adams

2016-02-08 15:59:30 UTC

"Mathew Newton" <***@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:ab5d4008-cb4b-4fe3-81fb-***@googlegroups.com...
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...

Looking at the first of your photographs any "analysis"
of the problem needs to address the fact that the
worst affected area seems to be that closest
to the house - the area subjected to most wear.
Which in my opinion rules out leatherjackets or any
other pests unless there was a particularly stupid
swarm of mayfly around last summer who chose to lay
their eggs on the busiest part of your garden.

As to drainage what you've got there looks no
worse than inside the entrance of many parks or
the goalmouths of most 3rd division (as was) football
grounds after a wet spell. The fact that some tufts
survived even there, is simply a result of the seed
mixture used.

If you check your local weather records you'll maybe find
all that's happened is a particularly wet
winter. Improving the drainage might simply mean
needing to water more frequently in any dry spells.

Wait till the Spring, warmer weather and a prolonged dry
spell before deciding what to do.

If it doesn't regrow then reseed any bald spots with
a hardwearing grass variety. The only downside
may be a difference in colour and texture as compared
with the rest.

michael adams

...

Rod Speed

2016-02-08 19:52:26 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...

Looking at the first of your photographs any "analysis"
of the problem needs to address the fact that the
worst affected area seems to be that closest
to the house - the area subjected to most wear.

Doesn’t explain why it did fine for the first couple of years.

Post by michael adams
Which in my opinion rules out leatherjackets or any other pests

Nope. Even if the areas subjected to the most wear
are worse than the areas that aren't, all that shows
is that the areas which are affected by both leatherjackets
or any other pests and wear show the problem first.

Doesn’t mean that leatherjackets etc aren't the problem.

Post by michael adams
unless there was a particularly stupid swarm of mayfly around last summer
who chose to lay
their eggs on the busiest part of your garden.
As to drainage what you've got there looks no
worse than inside the entrance of many parks or
the goalmouths of most 3rd division (as was) football
grounds after a wet spell.

The difference is that his problem now covers the entire
area which thrived fine for the first couple of years.

That is much better explained by the fact that it
takes some time for the leatherjacket etc density
to build up to a high enough level to see very
little grass survive that onslaught.

Post by michael adams
The fact that some tufts survived even there, is simply a result of the
seed mixture used.
If you check your local weather records you'll maybe find all that's
happened is a particularly wet
winter. Improving the drainage might simply mean
needing to water more frequently in any dry spells.

And it may be a complete waste of time and
unless the leatherjackets etc are not dealt with,
he will never get a decent lawn there again.

Post by michael adams
Wait till the Spring, warmer weather and a prolonged dry spell before
deciding what to do.

Makes a lot more sense to get rid of the leatherjackets
etc given how easy it is to do that.

Post by michael adams
If it doesn't regrow then reseed any bald spots with a hardwearing grass
variety.

Only to have all that eaten by the leatherjackets etc.

Post by michael adams
The only downside may be a difference in colour and texture as compared
with the rest.

Much more likely it will continue to look as bad as it does now.

michael adams

2016-02-08 20:52:36 UTC

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...

Looking at the first of your photographs any "analysis"
of the problem needs to address the fact that the
worst affected area seems to be that closest
to the house - the area subjected to most wear.

Doesnt explain why it did fine for the first couple of years.

"Mathew Newton" <***@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:ab5d4008-cb4b-4fe3-81fb-***@googlegroups.com...

"In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden"

How about putting some new batteries in your calculator and
having another go ?

michael adams

...

Mathew Newton

2016-02-08 21:06:01 UTC

Post by michael adams
"In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden"
How about putting some new batteries in your calculator and
having another go ?

michael adams

2016-02-08 21:20:37 UTC

Post by michael adams
"In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden"
How about putting some new batteries in your calculator and
having another go ?

I do keep reminding myself that if all else fails I could just dig the lawn out and start
again! It ought to be childs play compared with the excavation of the existing patio,
sub-base and clay sub-soil! The previous owner was a builder and given the thickness of
his patio base and size of the washing line post base I could tell he wasn't short of
materials to hand!

Mathew

...

That answer was directed at Wodney who was under the impression
this situation has lasted for years. When in fact being freshly
laid the turf could be expected to withstand a fair amount of
wear over the winter 2014/15 whatever the weather. Its only this
last wet winter 15/16 which has shown up the problem. If the problem
persists and the grass in the worn area doesn't recover by summer
I'd be tempted to try some spaced out paving stones for walking
on.
Basically unless you're a premiership football club with extensive
groundstaff you can't have immaculate looking grass which is also
subject to regular wear; especially whenever the weather turns wet.

michael adams

...

Mathew Newton

2016-02-08 21:40:11 UTC

Post by michael adams
That answer was directed at Wodney who was under the impression
this situation has lasted for years.

Aha! No wonder I didn't get how the calculator applied to me!

Rod Speed

2016-02-09 00:27:37 UTC

Post by michael adams
"In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden"
How about putting some new batteries in your calculator and
having another go ?

I do keep reminding myself that if all else fails I could just dig the
lawn out and start again! It ought to be childs play compared with the
excavation of the existing patio, sub-base and clay sub-soil! The previous
owner was a builder and given the thickness of his patio base and size of
the washing line post base I could tell he wasn't short of materials to
hand!
Mathew
...
That answer was directed at Wodney who was under the impression
this situation has lasted for years. When in fact being freshly
laid the turf could be expected to withstand a fair amount of
wear over the winter 2014/15 whatever the weather. Its only this
last wet winter 15/16 which has shown up the problem. If the problem
persists and the grass in the worn area

It isnt a worn area, there isnt much grass left there at
all now and this one shows very clearly that is isnt gone
in the high traffic areas particularly.
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg

Post by Mathew Newton
doesn't recover by summer I'd be tempted to try some spaced out paving
stones for walking on.

That clearly isnt the problem.
http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/lawn2-feb2016.jpg

Post by Mathew Newton
Basically unless you're a premiership football club with extensive
groundstaff you can't have immaculate looking grass which is also
subject to regular wear; especially whenever the weather turns wet.

Its nothing even remotely like immaculate now.

Rod Speed

2016-02-09 00:10:25 UTC

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Mathew Newton
I would be grateful for input from any gardeners out there...

Looking at the first of your photographs any "analysis"
of the problem needs to address the fact that the
worst affected area seems to be that closest
to the house - the area subjected to most wear.

Doesn’t explain why it did fine for the first couple of years.

"In June 2014 I removed the patio and subbase from our back garden"
How about putting some new batteries in your calculator and
having another go ?

You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.

Mathew Newton

2016-02-08 20:56:42 UTC

Post by michael adams
Looking at the first of your photographs any "analysis"
of the problem needs to address the fact that the
worst affected area seems to be that closest
to the house - the area subjected to most wear.

It is a reasonable conclusion to reach however I am confident that as the lawn gets very little usage anywhere then this is possibly not a contributory factor. The worst locations, however, do have in common the fact that they are the shadier areas and not likely to be as free draining given the walls on one side.

Post by michael adams
Which in my opinion rules out leatherjackets or any
other pests unless there was a particularly stupid
swarm of mayfly around last summer who chose to lay
their eggs on the busiest part of your garden.

Noting that we don't really have a busiest area, perhaps they are more likely to have laid eggs in shadier/damper areas? Alternatively, perhaps the weaker grass in these locations simply hasn't survived the attack as well as that which is stronger elsewhere?

Post by michael adams
Wait till the Spring, warmer weather and a prolonged dry
spell before deciding what to do.

That's my current plan - I don't want to make a bid situation worse by walking all over it.

I am thinking that I've had something of a perfect storm:

- Very wet winter
- Clay subsoil and consequently less then ideal drainage
- Leatherjackets
- A too short pre-winter final cut leaving the grass weaker than it could have been

When the weather starts to improve I may attempt to remove as many leatherjackets as is feasible (there's a finite number out there - it's not like they are breeding, yet!) and then giving a treatment of nematodes when the soil temperature increases to tackle the remainder. I may well give another treatment at the end of summer, following hatching, to hopefully remove this factor from the equation for next winter.

Post by michael adams
If it doesn't regrow then reseed any bald spots with
a hardwearing grass variety. The only downside
may be a difference in colour and texture as compared
with the rest.

If it's green I'd be happy... ;-)

Mathew

RayL12

2016-02-10 01:23:14 UTC

Post by michael adams
Wait till the Spring, warmer weather and a prolonged dry
spell before deciding what to do.

That's my current plan - I don't want to make a bid situation worse by walking all over it.
- Very wet winter
- Clay subsoil and consequently less then ideal drainage
- Leatherjackets
- A too short pre-winter final cut leaving the grass weaker than it could have been
When the weather starts to improve I may attempt to remove as many leatherjackets as is feasible (there's a finite number out there - it's not like they are breeding, yet!) and then giving a treatment of nematodes when the soil temperature increases to tackle the remainder. I may well give another treatment at the end of summer, following hatching, to hopefully remove this factor from the equation for next winter.

Post by michael adams
If it doesn't regrow then reseed any bald spots with
a hardwearing grass variety. The only downside
may be a difference in colour and texture as compared
with the rest.

If it's green I'd be happy... ;-)
Mathew

I think I'm only now seeing the true picture. You dug down below the
clay level in which case, given the surroundings, your garden is in a
clay bath?

...Ray.
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RayL12

2016-02-09 22:00:45 UTC